Wikipedia:Good article reassessment/Yūjirō Motora/1

Yūjirō Motora

Article (edit | visual edit | history) · Article talk (edit | history) · Watch • Watch article reassessment page • Most recent review

Result: Consensus to keep (t · c) buidhe 08:47, 29 October 2020 (UTC)

This article does not have adequate sources to qualify as a GA, it's infobox can be majorly expanded, it's last section fails WP:SURVIVEDBY. Not all statements are reliable, with certain paragraphs only having 1 or 2 sources. The article has violations of WP:TEXTBOOK and WP:OR (Sources variously credit Motora or his student, Matatarō Matsumoto, with setting up the lab. At the very least, Motora consulted with Matsumoto on the setup of the lab.). Some sources credit him as having set up the first psychological laboratory in Japan, WP:SYNTH and MOS:WEASEL. A practitioner of Zen meditation, Motora contributed ideas on the subject that influenced psychological thought in Japan, seems to start veering to break WP:NPOV, putting him in good light; perhaps WP:FANPOV. At the very least, Motora consulted with Matsumoto on the setup of the lab breaks WP:SYNTH. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Berrely (talk • contribs)

I did a copyedit just now, and I'll take a look at the OR/NPOV issues. Ovinus (talk) 19:59, 14 October 2020 (UTC)

My impression after reading the article again is that it uses some flowery language, for example Even as a child, Motora was interested.... I think with some work it can be up to GA standard, and I'll take a look at the prose again after/if changes have been made. Sincerely, Ovinus (talk) 20:06, 14 October 2020 (UTC)

Comments by No Great Shaker

Retain GA status. I carried out the GA review and, other than the need for a few minor amendments, I considered it to be a good article and promoted it accordingly. In my opinion, the complaints raised here are unsubstantiated. The worst of it is the accusation of WP:OR which is unfounded and out of order. The author, Larry Hockett, has written a good article and it is unacceptable that he has been subjected to an accusation of OR, especially as no adequate rationale has been provided. I'll deal with each of the points raised in turn.

First, apart from anything else, the request for reassessment needs to be presented in a readable form with paragraph breaks and indentation. This request is a mess, not even signed, and it does not in any way provide the full rationale which the edit instructions desire.

There is no requirement for any images in an article. GACR#6 is concerned with images that are present. It says: "Illustrated, if possible, by media...", not "Illustrated by media..." This point has already been challenged and removed from the above but the fact that it was ever included in the first place as a key reason for GA failure shows a lack of understanding of the GA criteria and process. The one image in the article is public domain, it is relevant and its caption is appropriate. Therefore, the article complies with GACR#6.

Where in GACR does it even mention an infobox? As with the entire article, the infobox could presumably be expanded if and when more information about the subject comes to light. Saying that the article is not GA because its infobox contains seven parameters is frankly absurd. It does not need to have an infobox. Like images, tables and lists, the infobox is a useful but optional aid to the reader. GA is essentially concerned with lead and narrative. Of course, if there is an infobox, it must be correct and tidy. This one is.

WP:SURVIVEDBY is given as a major reason for GA failure. This is not a policy like WP:V or even a rule. It is advisory and its intention is to prevent a single sentence "obituary" piece which says nothing more than: "He was survived by his wife and their five children". The death section in this article goes further by explaining that Motora died as a result of erysipelas. Yes, the "survived by" sentence could be reworded if another editor wished to do that and I see Larry has now amended it to "He and his wife had five children" which says exactly the same thing but addresses the pedantry implicit in WP:SURVIVEDBY.

"Not all statements are reliable". That is just an unsubtantiated throwaway opinion. Which statements and why? Can we have some specifics?

"Certain paragraphs only having 1 or 2 sources". Where in WP:GACR does it say that a paragraph must have more than one inline citation? GACR#2 says in practically generic terms that the content of the article (as a whole) must be verifiable with no original research. Part 2b is more precise by specifying: "all inline citations are from reliable sources", but it says nothing whatsoever about application of inline citations. For that, you need to look at WP:CITE itself: "An inline citation means any citation added close to the material it supports, for example after the sentence or paragraph, normally in the form of a footnote" (my italics).

You could, of course, place the same citation after all six sentences in a given paragraph but that would be both messy and unnecessary. You must, however, be aware of any quotations or opinions in the paragraph per WP:INTEXT. So, if there are six sentences and they are all derived from the same page of the same source, then only one citation is needed and placed after sentence six, the end of the paragraph. Suppose, though, that sentence two is a quotation. In that case, the citation must be placed twice – once after sentence two and again at the end of the paragraph.

"The article has violations of WP:TEXTBOOK". This is a component of WP:NOT and it rightly declares that: "Wikipedia is an encyclopedic reference, not a textbook. The purpose of Wikipedia is to present facts, not to teach subject matter. It is not appropriate to create or edit articles that read as textbooks, with leading questions and systematic problem solutions as examples". Using specific examples, please explain how on Earth this article violates any part of WP:NOT. Where, for example, is there a leading question or a problem solution or an instruction or a definition?

WP:OR is "any statement for which no reliable, published sources exist". Which statement in this article lacks a citation (bearing in mind that some citations cover whole paragraphs) and can possibly be considered OR? It is very easy to throw an OR accusation at an author without substantiation. It is also irresponsible. Everything in the article is adequately referenced to a reliable source. I think Larry deserves a full and formal apology for this accusation which is insulting and completely out of order.

"Sources variously credit Motora or his student, Matataro Matsumoto, with setting up the lab. At the very least, Motora consulted with Matsumoto on the setup of the lab". Two sources verify the first sentence and the second is verified by one of those sources which also covers the rest of the paragraph. There is obviously a difference of opinion among the sources about who set up the lab and so, as Larry has done, it is best to say that it is an either... or... scenario. What exactly is the issue here?

"Some sources credit him as having set up the first psychological laboratory in Japan". This is in the lead and it summarises the lab source statements in the narrative per MOS:LEAD. The complaint about it seems to be "WP:SYNTH and MOS:WEASEL" without further explanation. Presumably it is contended that "some sources credit him" breaches MOS:WEASEL, but it doesn't because it is in the lead and it summarises sourced information in the narrative which expressly states that there is a difference of opinion between sources. The key point is that the sources are cited so this is not the same as "some people say" without referencing. As for WP:SYNTH, this states: "Do not combine material from multiple sources to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any of the sources". What conclusion has been reached that is not explicitly stated by one of the two relevant cited sources? Again, as with OR above, this is a case of throwing rules and guidelines around without any clear understanding of their purpose.

The essential rule that applies to difference of opinion between sources is WP:NPOV which is both a key policy and GACR#4 where it is summarised: "it represents viewpoints fairly and without editorial bias, giving due weight to each". Please explain exactly how the "some sources" statement breaches WP:NPOV and fails GACR#4.

"A practitioner of Zen meditation, Motora contributed ideas on the subject that influenced psychological thought in Japan". The complaint is that this "seems to start veering to break NPOV, putting him in good like; perhaps WP:FANPOV". What does "putting him in good like" even mean? If you are going to criticise someone's work, please do so in a way that people can understand what you are talking about. The sentence is in the lead so it must summarise something in the narrative and it does not need a citation in the lead as long as it does that. In fact, the sentence summarises the second paragraph of the academic career section and that paragraph is sourced to Hiroki Kato so there is no breach of NPOV. In the narrative, Motora's "ideas on the subject that influenced psychological thought in Japan" are explained in terms of his theory "that Zen should be understood through personal interpretation rather than through a Zen master, and this became an influential thought in early Japanese psychology", which is referenced to Hiroki Kato, who is an authority on Zen. There is no POV there and no subjectivity to remotely suggest FANPOV.

Larry has said on his talk page that he expected to have to deal with some feedback before the article was promoted to GA, but I found that it only needed a few tweaks and, to save time, I did those myself. I admit that I could have made more amendments to the text but I was aware that Larry writes in AE style and I respect that as otherwise the article would have ended up a mixture of AE and BE. As long as a narrative makes sense, there is no need to alter something like "as well as the nation's first psychology textbook". Americans like to say "the nation" and it's fine, although the British would never say it (we might say "the country"). Ovinus has removed "the nation's" but it doesn't matter as the sentence still makes sense.

The complaints about this article are unsubstantiated and, insofar as accusations of OR and POV are concerned, completely out of order. The article is by no means a finished product because it could obviously be expanded if more information about Motora should be found. While the recent amendments by Larry and Ovinus are okay, nothing substantial has been done. I don't think it could be nominated at FAC as it stands, but it does meet the GA criteria and it is a good article. No Great Shaker (talk) 09:26, 15 October 2020 (UTC)

In general I agree with No Great Shaker; I don't think the claim of OR is substantiated. The NPOV problems, which were slight, have been rectified. I think we should close this reassessment. Sincerely, Ovinus (talk) 09:32, 15 October 2020 (UTC)

Thank you, Ovinus. Appreciate your help with the article. All the best and keep safe. No Great Shaker (talk) 09:48, 15 October 2020 (UTC)

Thanks to both of you. I welcome almost any efforts to improve WP entries. I thought the use of GAR and the scope of the concerns were both misguided here, but I realize that the reassessment was proposed in good faith. I think some improvements have resulted from rereading the entry, even on issues not proposed by the nominator. I have cleaned up a few things, like inconsistencies in the reference format and in the university names.

I took out the part about there being a discrepancy in the credit given to Motora and Matsumoto on the first psychology lab. I only found one source that makes a big deal out of this. When other sources describe the lab in detail, they credit both men; it seems clear that Motora was the driving force, while Matsumoto helped with specific aspects (such as looking at state-of-the-art lab equipment while he was in Germany). More can be added about their specific roles in the formation of the lab, but first I'd like to address any remaining concerns that are germane to the GA criteria. Thanks. Larry Hockett (Talk) 06:20, 17 October 2020 (UTC)

Berrely, could you let me know if there are any outstanding concerns about how this entry squares with the GA criteria? Thank you. Larry Hockett (Talk) 02:41, 25 October 2020 (UTC)

I feel like a bit of fool, as clearly the article does justify as a GA. I just used the stereotype that "not long" "not a million sources" when I clearly shouldn't have. I genuinely apologise for the inconvenience I have caused, as clearly this GAR was made without an appropriate reason. — Yours, Berrely • ^Talk∕_Contribs 13:57, 25 October 2020 (UTC)

Please don't feel bad. I've done worse things on Wikipedia. The GA criteria do have a level of subjectivity to them, so two editors may not have the same thoughts on whether a given entry passes GA or not. Some good things actually came of this - for example, I was prompted to look into the issue you mentioned about the credit for the first psychology lab. I suspect that if no other issues are raised, someone will come along soon enough and close this. No harm done. Larry Hockett (Talk) 13:55, 25 October 2020 (UTC)