Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/NHL Entry Draft/archive1

The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was not promoted by Truco 20:05, 10 July 2009 [1].

NHL Entry Draft

Nominator(s): –Juliancolton | ^Talk and iMatthew ^talk at 16:36, 2 July 2009 (UTC) [reply]

Featured list candidates/NHL Entry Draft/archive1

I am nominating this for featured list because it should meet the FLC criteria. iMatthew ^talk at 16:36, 2 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from The Rambling Man (talk · contribs)

Lead image can be bigger per MOS, up to 300px, so we can actually see what it's about.
What does "collective meeting" mean here? Is it different from just "meeting"? Is it something specific?
"within two–three months" - what happened to prose - two to three...
Link Stanley Cup first time, not third or fourth time.
"The Entry Draft was known as the "Amateur Draft" up until 1979. The first draft was held in 1963, and has been held every year since. " seems like this info could be reversed - the timing of the first draft is much more important than the name of it.
"and a televised event in 1984" - you really mean that it's been televised since 1984, not just a televised event in one specific year.
"The first NHL Entry Draft (originally known as the "NHL Amateur Draft") ..." citation? and is it NHL Amateur Draft or just Amateur Draft (per the lead)?
"and was not already sponsored by an NHL club was " - was overdose, lose first one, and put a comma after club (in my opinion).
"In 1969, the rules were changed so that any amateur player under the age of 20 was eligible to be drafted. Only 84 players were selected that year." I think you should elegantly merge these two sentences.
"This rule change was made to facilitate the absorption of players from the now defunct World Hockey Association. This caused ..." This... overdose.
"The 1980 draft was held in the Montreal Forum. The first draft outside of Montreal was held at the Metro Toronto Convention Centre in Toronto, Ontario in 1985." elegant merge again please.
In the table, 'cos it's sortable, relink everything you've linked.
1993- what's "Le Colis?e"?

The Rambling Man (talk) 18:04, 2 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Done with everything except re-linking everything. A different judge, User:Mitchazenia, told me to only link things once in the table per WP:OVERLINK. :/ iMatthew ^talk at 18:36, 2 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Interesting. In lists like this we even allow overlinking with unsortable tables, just in case the table is really long. Wouldn't want our readers to go searching for the link etc etc. The Rambling Man (talk) 18:42, 2 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Alright, thanks for the review. Done! iMatthew ^talk at 18:53, 2 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - You know...this can be a good article if the history section was expanded more. Some sentences like which draft had the most hall of famers, all-stars, etc. can be added onto the article. -- [[SRE.K.A.L.|L.A.K.ERS]] 05:21, 3 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

This is being nominated as a list, though. –Juliancolton | ^Talk 05:30, 3 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I know, but what I'm trying to say is that it could be a good article. Sorry if this comment was unnecessary, but was just trying to point that out. -- [[SRE.K.A.L.|L.A.K.ERS]] 05:34, 3 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose per 3a. This page is not comprehensive enough. The first two sections are very poorly written lacking important information. Currently, they both look like rough draft documents. When the necessary info is added, you can nominate it at either WP:GAC or WP:FAC. This subject should not be considered a list.--Crzy cheetah 09:13, 3 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Well like Julian said, it's being nominated as a list. By that reasoning, would you say Royal Rumble and WWE No Way Out shouldn't be featured lists? iMatthew ^talk at 11:52, 3 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Please review this according to the FL criteria. Thank you. –Juliancolton | ^Talk 15:33, 3 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  - As far as I can see, it's more list than article, so this review (per Julian) can continue. Thanks. If we could add constructive and helpful criticism rather than sweeping generalistations, that would really help nominators address concerns. The Rambling Man (talk) 15:58, 3 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    - Julian, I did review this page according to WP:FL?, hence my first words were "per 3a". I meant this page does not pass the criterion 3(a) of our beloved criteria. The 3(a) states It comprehensively covers the defined scope, providing at least all of the major items and, where practical, a complete set of items; where appropriate, it has annotations that provide useful and appropriate information about the items. I believe this page is not comprehensive. The criterion states that pages need to be comprehensive, but this one is not comprehensive; therefore, this page fails that criterion. I really thought it would be obvious, but apparently I was wrong.
      - The defined scope, as the title of the page suggests, is not a list of NHL Entry drafts, but rather NHL Entry draft, so readers come to learn about draft rules and draft history as well as see the list. Currently, there are a ton of unanswered questions after reading the page about NHL Entry draft.
      - This article is missing information about why NHL decided to hold drafts in the first place. I mean, why so late? Why some drafts needed more than one day to complete?
      - Did the 1979 rule change that allowed foreign professionals to be picked cancel the age limit that was passed by the 1969 rule? A 21 year old Swede could just go and sign with the team without going through the draft process? There's a huge room for assumptions while explaining the eligibility rules.
      - There's no info about why the number of players selected is different every year. How many rounds are there? Can teams waive their rights to draft?
      - There's no further info about trading draft picks. Can you trade picks for cash, i.e. sell picks? Can you trade picks for players or just for other picks? Can you trade all of your picks? Are you allowed to trade all of your picks for the next 10 years? or is there a limit?
      - As for the draft order, I understand the lottery decides the order for the first round. How about round two? three? I just skimmed through individual drafts and noticed the order for each round is different.
      - A section about "reception" is missing, as well. What is the opinion of NHL experts about the drafts? Were there any drafts that just changed the league? OR were they all boring and monotonous? Were there any players or teams that disrespected the process by their actions?
      - The second sentence in the History section is the exact copy from the reference, that's copyright violation!
      - All of your references are from NHL, you need third-party sources.

--Crzy cheetah 22:32, 3 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Truco (talk · contribs)

General

Dabs, external links check out fine

Lead

Checks out fine

History

Any amateur player that was 17 years of age and older, and was not already sponsored by an NHL club was eligible to be drafted. -- Comma after NHL club
In 1979, the rules were again changed, as they now allowed players who had previously played professionally to be drafted. -- Can the beginning be reworded a bit, because the previous sentence before this starts as In 1969, .... (its too similar)
From 1987 through 1991, 18 and 19 year old players could only be drafted in the first three rounds unless they met another criteria of experience which required them to have played in major junior, U.S. college and high school, or European hockey.[4][1] -- Change the order of the references
Prior to this year the Entry Draft was conducted in Montreal hotels or League offices, and was closed to the general public. -- 1)Comma after to this year 2)Is there a specific reason as to why they were close to the public before?

Selection order

However, teams are permitted to trade draft picks. -- This would be better states as... Teams, however, are permitted to trade draft picks.
In all cases, the team considered is the original holder of the draft pick, not a team which may have acquired the pick via a trade or other means. -- I'm confused, the team considered for what? A trade?
A single selection from the lottery pool is made, with the winning team eligible to improve its draft order by up to four places, and no team eligible to drop more than one place. -- +is before eligible to drop more

List

Some of the entries have just the state or muninipality listed, eg. Florida or Quebec: are the cities not available (for states?) and isn't Quebec in Montreal?

Montreal is in the province of Quebec. Laugh out loud. -- [[SRE.K.A.L.|L.A.K.ERS]] 19:43, 3 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Eh, you get my point =P--Tru co ₅₀₃ 00:19, 5 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I've fixed these up. Reso lute 23:55, 8 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Is the 30th pick regarded highly more than the first pick? Because that's how I'm reading it. If so, I think a column should be made for it. If not, then ignore this.

References

Ref 6: The publisher is the NHL while the work is from the Lightning.
Is there any third party sources available? You only have primary sources in use from the NHL.--Tru co ₅₀₃ 16:24, 3 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Possible source, although it might be a bit outdated (I don't know) Dabomb87 (talk) 16:55, 7 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I have a couple histories that will make mention of the draft and significant moves. It likely will not be today, but I'll see what I can add from secondary sources. Websites like tsn.ca should have Entry Draft pages that could be added as general references. Reso lute 17:22, 7 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Strong oppose This should not be at FLC, as there exists enough information in reliable sources to make a separate article about the draft and about the list of drafts. A section in an NHL history article (History_of_the_National_Hockey_League_(1967–1992)#Entry_Draft) has only two paragraphs less on it than the article. I did a very quick scan through one book, Arthur Pincus' The Official Illustrated NHL history (2006), and I found a part, around a page long in a chapter dedicated about the draft, and the small text, on the page, which is bigger than your standard A4 or 8.5 by 11 in sheet of paper wasn't particularly illustrated. If that book, which doesn't really cover NHL history in great detail, can provide that much, other, more comprehensive NHL history books, such as the ones used in the NHL history articles as a source by me and Res, will have even more on the draft, which will allow you to write a decent article. Maxim_(talk) 21:26, 8 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose Same reasoning as Maxim. This is not a list, but rather an article with a list. The draft, being one of the league's showcase events, has a considerable history that is not documented here, so cannot be considered comprehensive. Off the top of my head, I can think of the 2005 draft lottery, the Eric Lindros saga, the controversy in Montreal over drafting Doug Wickenheiser, Taro Tsujimoto, possibly a controversy about Gretzky not going into the 79 draft (not sure if that actually existed at the time), dueling drafts with the WHA. Much has been written about famous draft busts, i.e.: Wickenheiser and Daigle being first overall picks that bombed. The league moving in recent years to a prime time format for the first round to help draw more viewers. This is a topic that deserves much more than is presented here. I agree with a comment above. We can develop this article into a GA or FA with enough work. Reso lute 23:41, 8 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose – I find myself agreeing with the previous opposers that GA or FA should be the goal. This is apparently a page that would be better-suited in regular article form, instead of just being a list. NFL Draft, Major League Baseball Draft, and NBA Draft aren't trying to be lists, so I don't get why this should be mainly a list, especially when the page has such great expansion possibilities. Giants2008 (17-14) 00:48, 10 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I didn't realize this was still open. Withdraw it please. iMatthew ^talk at 00:58, 10 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.