Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/Michael Jackson videography/archive2

The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was archived by PresN via FACBot (talk) 23:31, 12 February 2017 (UTC) [1].[reply]

Michael Jackson videography

Featured list removal candidates/Michael Jackson videography/archive1

Nominator(s): Chase (talk) 00:58, 11 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I am nominating this for featured list because it has improved greatly from when it was demoted. I have read through the concerns of the demoters and tried to address each concern thoroughly. I believe enough work has been carried out to deserve the FL status again. I have also expanded upon some things that weren't mentioned to best fit the format of the other featured lists of the same category; for example, Lady Gaga videography and Katy Perry videography. Thank you. Chase (talk) 00:58, 11 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Update — Notified at the following talk pages: WikiProject Michael Jackson, Michael Jackson, and WikiProject Lists.

Support Akhiljaxxn (talk) 17:11, 22 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - Shouldn't the "Notes" for Captain EO specify that it is a short film or even an amusement park attraction?--Deoliveirafan (talk) 19:45, 1 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Reply to Deoliveirafan: Done by Chase|^talk 01:52, 5 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Support--Deoliveirafan (talk) 02:11, 5 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved comments from The Rambling Man (talk) 08:23, 25 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Comments

" at age 5 " five, per MOSNUM

Done --Chase

Comment - before I review it, I should add that the lead is very short. Only five out of God knows how many videos are mentioned. Videos released in 70s, 2000s and 2010s are not at all mentioned. Many of his videos from 80s and 90s are also missing. I don't think that you have modeled the lead based on Gaga or Perry's videographies, 'cause they both have at least three paragraphs and they have been in the game for less than a decade as opposed to Jackson, who was active for over four decades. If you cover them properly, you might end up writing four paras. – FrB.TG (talk) 13:26, 6 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Reply to FrB.TG: I did not alter the lead in any way from what it was during its previous status as a featured list. I also didn't model the page after those one's; I just used them as a reference for what I expanded. --Chase | ^talk 21:57, 10 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I should also add, I mostly addressed the concerns from the article demotion here. --Chase | ^talk 21:59, 10 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Well, you should have. The lead should also be comprehensive and cover the subject in detailed manner. Completeness does not apply only to the list. – FrB.TG (talk) 22:21, 10 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I would have to agree with FrB.TG in that it does seem odd that only five of the music videos are mentioned in the lead. Looking at the FL for Madonna videography for instance, the lead is much larger and more comprehensive of her music video output and I would imagine with someone that received as much attention and had such a large output as Michael Jackson would have a similar scope in its lead. I really enjoy the second paragraph as it comprehensively goes over his appearances in film and television but to have that paragraph be the same length as the first paragraph on his music videos seems a little off balance as I believe Jackson would be more well known for his music than his acting. I apologize for the intrusion, but I just wanted to add my opinion to this. Aoba47 (talk) 19:04, 17 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Reply to FrB.TG and Aoba47: Does the lead make it to where you won't support the nomination of the list to featured list? I believe each paragraph expresses the completeness of the material that the article possess and states his most notable works, as examples. Also, to Aoba47's point; the article is about the videos, not the music. I do not believe he is more notable for his works in music videos than he is in his short films. As a matter of fact, Jackson himself would say all of his film media was a short film and not a music video. --Chase | ^talk 18:53, 3 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: I still have concerns over the completeness of the lead. I have to disagree with your statement comparing his notability in music videos and in film as I am much more familiar than any of his film work so I do not believe that generalization is applicable here. The final statement about music videos being a film media can applied to practically any artist now considering the importance and amount of work put into music videos. The main Michael Jackson page has such a long and detailed subsection relating to his music videos, and this lead for this list seems rather shallow in comparison. I fully admit that I am be wrong about this (I have never work closely with videography lists), but I just find it a little odd. @FrB.TG: may have something more to say about this. I have also noticed that you have pinged the following users on the talk page last year (@PresN, Cowlibob, SNUGGUMS, and Azealia911:) and they may also bring something productive to this discussion. Aoba47 (talk) 02:22, 4 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Comment it's been over a month since the previous comment about the lead length, CCamp2013, are you going to address this? The Rambling Man (talk) 08:24, 25 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I see you made an edit today CCamp2013, perhaps you're too busy to respond, but please be aware that I will be archiving this nomination in a couple of days unless I hear from you. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:14, 29 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Reply to The Rambling Man: I thought I addressed it as much as I needed to. The lead, in my opinion, is comprehensive enough and gives a summary of his music video works that were most notable. What FrB.TG is proposing would make the lead too excessive and give undue weight to music videos that are not as important to his career. As I said, this was the lead with the previous status as a featured list, and nothing has changed in the artist's work since it was promoted/demoted. Many users did not have a problem with the comprehensiveness of the lead and it was not the reason for the article being demoted. Also, let's remeber that this is not a list for his music, but for his videos. Chase | ^talk 22:45, 29 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

CCamp2013 well please talk to the two reviewers who both thought the lead was too short, right now the nomination is stalled. The Rambling Man (talk) 08:15, 2 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I have to agree that the lead is rather short at the moment and could use another paragraph on his music videos. While it certainly isn't necessary to list all of them, having nothing from the Bad album is a big concern, particularly "Leave Me Alone" given its awards. Noting accolades like MTV Video Awards, Grammys, and Guinness World Records for videos should also help. I'm also not sure if Jackson 5 videos are worth adding unless he received some sort of individual credit given how this page is on his solo career. Snuggums (talk / edits) 05:06, 4 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Closing note: I'm going to close this nomination as stalled. It's a big shame, since it's a pretty good list, but it's been four months (which is way over time), several editors have stated that they want to see a lead that contains more information than this one with the nominator refusing, and I both agree and am unmoved by the contention that since it was the lead when it was first promoted 8 years ago it is above reproach. Additionally, although there are 2 supports, I do not feel that they were comprehensive reviews- just skimming the list, I see several minor tense shifts between rows, some grammar issues, and some reference problems (don't put an access-date parameter in a ref unless there is a url as well). --Pres N 00:38, 12 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Closing note: This candidate has been archived, but there may be a delay in bot processing of the close. Please see WP:FLC/ar, and leave the {{featured list candidates}} template in place on the talk page until the bot goes through.

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.