Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/List of operas by Claudio Monteverdi/archive1

The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was promoted by Giants2008 via FACBot (talk) 00:27, 22 June 2020 (UTC) [1].[reply]

List of operas by Claudio Monteverdi

Featured list candidates/List of operas by Claudio Monteverdi/archive1

Nominator(s): Gerda Arendt (talk), Aza24 (talk) 23:20, 25 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

To the best of my knowledge there are no featured lists for compositions by a classical composer except List of operas by Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart by Brianboulton. Brian was a fabulous contributor, who got all of Monteverdi's operas (L'Orfeo, L'Arianna, Il ritorno d'Ulisse in patria, L'incoronazione di Poppea and Lost operas by Claudio Monteverdi) to FA status. If this list is promoted to FL then I'll nominate it to be a featured topic with all of the other Operas, since the extensive work from Brian deserves nothing the less. The list itself is the result of work by Gerda Arendt and myself, but we decided to go a different route than the List of operas by Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart, by putting more information below the table, so it's less cluttered and has better mobile accessibility. Any and all comments would be appreciated! - Aza24 (talk) 23:20, 25 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved comments from ~ HAL333 15:08, 2 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comments –

The lede could use some expanding. ~ HAL333 16:26, 31 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@HAL333: I'm not really sure what to could add, since everything is in the background section. Should the background section perhaps be moved into the lede? (That's where it was before) - Aza24 (talk) 22:15, 31 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Aza24: That would work. ~ HAL333 01:24, 1 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@HAL333: Done - Aza24 (talk) 21:19, 1 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

In the final paragraph, you should add a ref for "Monteverdi was instrumental in developing and popularizing the genre for public musical theatre". ~ HAL333 21:30, 1 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Done - Aza24 (talk) 06:17, 2 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Support Great article, you’ve done Brian well. ~ HAL333 15:06, 2 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for your support HAL333! - Aza24 (talk) 20:16, 2 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved comments from ChrisTheDude (talk) 07:21, 5 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

*"the then emerging opera genre" => "the then-emerging opera genre"

Done

"For three of these, music and libretto" => "For three of these, the music and libretto"

Done

"The first known work to be regarded as an opera in the modern sense is Dafne " - the title should be in italics

Done

Same for Euridice (twice)

Done

The sentence beginning "In 1613" is extremely long and would benefit from being broken up

Good call, Done

"his L'Orfeo is the earliest opera still regularly performed" - no reason to state this twice in the lead

Done

I will look at the rest of the article later -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 07:25, 1 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@ChrisTheDude: Awesome, thank you for your initial comments. Aza24 (talk) 21:19, 1 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comments on the table

Prefacing a table with prose saying "The table lists....." isn't really done nowadays. I would convert all that stuff above the table into a key table, or more likely two, one for the "groups", and then for the column headings -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 13:45, 3 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@ChrisTheDude: Let me know what you think of my solution to this. I originally had the column headings next to the groups, but it looked odd to have a table of 8 things next to one of 4 so I made it 6 next to 6, if that makes sense. - Aza24 (talk) 01:03, 5 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Looks good to me! -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 07:21, 5 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

When tables of songs, films, etc contain English titles starting with "The" or "A", it is standard to sort on the next word, so I would say the same should apply here for anything that starts with "Il", "Le", etc -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 13:45, 3 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@ChrisTheDude: To be honest, I'm not sure about this one, the "Il" and "Le" seem too apart of the name to be seperated. Thoughts? - Aza24 (talk) 01:03, 5 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Let's leave this open and see what other people think..... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 07:21, 5 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I think you are right, Chris, I didn't think of that. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:33, 5 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

done --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:43, 5 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved comments from ChrisTheDude (talk) 07:21, 5 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

*Opera title should be in italics

Done - Aza24 (talk) 01:03, 5 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The three uncompleted operas have values in the "Occasion" column even though (as far as I can see) they never received a premiere - can you clarify this? I realise it is explained further down, but at this point readers haven't got to that bit....... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 13:45, 3 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Done - Good point, I added that they were "incomplete" - Aza24 (talk) 01:03, 5 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Dudley

Monteverdi's dates of birth and death would would be helpful context.

Done - Aza24 (talk) 03:40, 6 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

"the duke immediately realized the potential of this new art form and sought to gain prestige from the patronage of it" "immediately" does not sound right as he took 6 years to commission Monteverdi.
Done – Good point, I just removed the immediately. - Aza24 (talk) 03:40, 6 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Should that go for Monteverdi's article also? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:16, 6 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
"In 1613 Monteverdi became maestro di cappella at St Mark's Basilica in Venice, where he still composed operas for the Gonzaga court but also for the public Teatro Santi Giovanni e Paolo in Venice." This implies that he was writing for both at the same time, but the list shows that he stopped in 1630 and then started again exclusively for the theatre in 1640.

Done – Its supposed to imply that even though he left the Gonzaga court, he still wrote Operas for them, does the phrasing I changed it to make that clear? - Aza24 (talk) 03:40, 6 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

In the key and table, the arrangement of information about survival of the operas is illogical. You put them last in the key and first in the table. The heading 'Group' makes no sense and should be 'Survival', or better still delete it entirely. There is no point in having both numbers and colour coding for the same thing.
The numbers are for MOS:ACCESS – I don't think there's anyway around this. I did move the colors/groups in to the beginning of the key, is that what you meant for the first part of this comment? - Aza24 (talk) 03:40, 6 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I put them second, and gave them words instead of numbers. Better words welcome. We do need something for vision-impaired who will have problems with colours alone. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:16, 6 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The librettists should be linked in the table. Can we think of short words for the state of survival, abbreviating the description in the legend? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:16, 6 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Done (Marigliani doesn't have a page) - Aza24 (talk) 03:40, 6 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I changed the direct link to WP:IT to an interlanguage link. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:16, 6 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
"Andromeda, a favola in musica, was commissioned by Don Vincenzo Gonzaga for the Mantua Carnival of March 1618, to a libretto by Marigliani. Due to Monteverdi's disinterest, it was first performed during the 1620 Carnival season". Presumably you mean that he took two years to finish it, but it would be clearer to say so rather than referring to disinterest.
Done - Aza24 (talk) 03:40, 6 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
You are inconsistent whether dramma is capitalised. Dudley Miles (talk) 23:08, 5 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Done - Should be lowercased now everywhere except in the table. - Aza24 (talk) 03:40, 6 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Dudley Miles: Thank you for your comments. I believe I have addressed everything you brought up, with exception to removing the groups as they are to full fill MOS:ACCESS. Aza24 (talk) 03:42, 6 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I added some, please check again. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:16, 6 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Support. A first rate list. You just need to update the revisions table. Dudley Miles (talk) 08:26, 6 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for good questions and support, and update also done. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:07, 6 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

More comments

The first key table looks odd with some of the cells in the first column centred and others not - I think it would be better if all were centred
I agree, only I didn't manage to apply two style= features, and don't have time to study how. Anybody? --GA
Should be good now. Aza24 (talk) 22:09, 6 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
"The libretto is written with dramatic instinct" - not 100% sure what this means, can you clarify?
We'd need to ask Brian Boulton. --GA
"which he criticised in a letter dated 9 December 1616" - Earlier you had "-ize" words spelt thus (American English) but here you use British English. Pick one and make sure it is used all the way through. Using AmEng would presumably require using spellings such as "theater"
Brit for a European topic. Will try to fix. --GA
"Due to Monteverdi's disinterest it took 2 years to complete" - write the number as a word
yes --GA
"(literally: happy ending tragedy)" - you haven't used "literally" with any of the other translations, why so here?
(I didn't do it.) Guess the others are pretty obvious. --GA
Yes I believe that was me. This genre didn't seem to have an english equivalent so I used a literal word for word one, but the inconsistency is probably not worth the extra word so I removed the "literally". Aza24 (talk) 22:09, 6 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
In the See also section, but a bullet point before the link
No, I dropped it altogether. That link is in his template, and if that's not enough, it could be included in the prose. --GA
Notes which are not a complete sentence (b, e, f, g) should not have a full stop.
fixed, I hope --GA
"Information is from (Carter & Chew 2001)" - why the brackets?
I looked at that. The template makes them. Perhaps we should just write the note, without a link? Aza? --GA
I made that one into just a ref. The other one for the table is part of the template like Gerda said and probably can't be changed. (The way it is right now makes the fact that it doesn't cover everything clear and links it to the source) Aza24 (talk) 22:09, 6 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I take the above comment back, I figured out how to remove them! Aza24 (talk) 22:47, 6 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Think that's it from me........ -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 15:58, 6 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you again for your helpful and thoughtful comments! Aza24 (talk) 22:09, 6 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Support -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 10:03, 9 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Support Passes my source review --Guerillero | Parlez Moi 00:06, 11 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Closing note: This candidate has been promoted, but there may be a delay in bot processing of the close. Please see WP:FLC/ar, and leave the {{featured list candidates}} template in place on the talk page until the bot goes through. Giants2008 (Talk) 18:14, 21 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.