Wikipedia:Featured article review/Stuyvesant High School/archive1

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article review. Please do not modify it. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page or at Wikipedia talk:Featured article review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was kept 19:55, 30 April 2008.

Stuyvesant High School

Review commentary

User:Y, User:ElKevbo, User:Xiner, User:BenjaminTsai, User:Abulanov, User:Niffweed17, User:A1111, User:Zxcvbnm, User:RossPatterson notified.‎

This article has been a Featured Article since June 2006. My major concerns are that the article fails to meet criterion 1c - specifically claims are verifiable against reliable sources, there are numerous fact tags littered through the article, and many claims that simply arent backed up by any reliable source. The section on SHS in popular culture is like a popular culture trivia guide, it needs to be changed into prose, to engage the audience more, additional references would help too. Twenty Years 05:24, 19 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: There are 5 {{Fact}} tags in the article. There are also 79 references, all checked for availability recently, and more than two thirds from reliable sources independent of the school. RossPatterson (talk) 22:30, 19 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Ive added some additional fact tags, where there needs to be a reference. Featured Articles shouldnt have fact tags at all. The one-line paragraph in Mnemonics (Public Artwork) needs to be merged aswell and the "In Popular culture" section needs to be cleaned up into prose, not a trivia-style list. Twenty Years 03:59, 24 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed - I've merged that line with the previous paragraph. I've also tackled some of the {{fact}} tags, though there are some others where we might just change or remove the claim needing the reference. Some of them are a little tiny bit POV-ish, but that'll come out during copyediting - which I don't think we actually need all that much of. UltraExactZZ ^Claims~ Evidence 15:40, 27 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The major citations we still need are under Sports and Academics; I think we've gotten everything else. UltraExactZZ ^Claims~ Evidence 17:35, 28 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

FARC commentary

Suggested FA criteria concerns are referencing (1c) and prose (1a). Marskell (talk) 14:04, 10 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

All of the indicated referencing concerns, including Five Years' added {{Fact}} tags (Twenty Years has changed his/her name) have been dealt with. Most were answered with references, and the few remaining claims were removed. The only indicated prose concern has also been dealt with. Most of the credit for the work is due to Zxcvbnm and Ultraexactzz. RossPatterson (talk) 23:39, 10 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Keep - We seem to have moved from the review phase to the removal candidate phase, so I'm making my opinion known. All stated concerns have been addressed, it's still a very good article, and it still deserves its FA status. RossPatterson (talk) 23:42, 10 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

LOTS of fixes needed, samples only. WP:MSH isses throughout, example: Mnemonics (Public Artwork) (check use of uppercase, "A" and "The"). MOS:CAPS#All caps, example: FRONTRUNNERS(a documentary film). Suh Films. Retrieved on September 1, 2007. Incomplete citations throughout, see WP:CITE/ES, all sources need a publisher, as well as author and publication date when available, I won't evaluate for reliability of sources until citations are complete. The New York Times archives are available, those articles should be linked and fully formatted, including a last access date. Inconsistent date linking, some dates are linked in citations, others aren't, see WP:MOSDATE. WP:DASH issues, example: Joshua Lederberg (Class of 1941) - 1958 Nobel Prize in Physiology or Medicine. Another example: ... such classes---often ethnic minorities---at a disadvantage ... Inconsistency in how alumni are referred to, sometimes ... Matt Deming '62 remembered ... sometimes year is in paren, and sometimes year is four digits: pick one system to use throughout. Check WP:MOSNUM, I'm pretty sure this is wrong: ... from the 15^th Street building to the Chambers ... WP:PUNC review needed, I saw several errors in logical punctuation. Also punctuation problems on sentence fragments in image captions per WP:MOS#Captions. Advanced Placement is in uppercase in one case, lower case another, which is it, and isn't there a link? (Note, review all wikilinking per WP:MOSLINK and WP:OVERLINK). Why does this need seven citations? and regularly trades off the leading position in the number of Intel Science Talent Search Semi-Finalists and Finalists with Bronx Science.[31][32][33][34][35][36][37] Review WP:ITALICS, example: ... December 2007, the Wall Street Journal studied ... Why is SAT linked here, when it's used above this? Define acronyms and link on first occurrence: ... Before the revision of the SAT, Stuyvesant graduates had ... For example, the acronym PSAL is not defined, reader has to deduce it by looking up. JSA, another undefined acronym, review throughout. WP:FN, incorrect footnote placement wrt punctuation: ... by the Stuyvesant Student Union[1], a group of elected and appointed students who serve the student body in two important areas[51]: ... WP:OVERLINKing, don't most of us know what a newspaper is? Review throughout. Inconsistent date convention, which is it, full years or two years? ... in 1975–76.[54] In the beginning of the 75–76 academic ... External jumps in the text, external jumps belong in External links or citations: ... Survey. The 1948 edition is available ... More incorrect WP:DASHes: national, and — at least in the case ... and suddenly, paragraphs later, after I first encountered it, I hit a name and definition for JSA; define acronyms and links on first occurrence. Another external jump and faulty dash: ... At Stuyvesant, SING! started as a small event in 1973 and has grown to a huge school-wide event — in 2005 ... These are samples only; I'll revisit and read the text more completely and check sources once cleanup is complete. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:37, 12 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

All indicated problems have been corrected, and any I could find that resembled them. Thanks! RossPatterson (talk) 03:37, 13 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Lots of problems - mainly the independent sources, which are lacking. Where are the sources for all the internal runnings of the school newspaper and so forth. It looks like OR/revealed knowledge from the back of a student's head. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 03:49, 22 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I concur that more independent sources are needed, but the ones that are in place are largely independent. We have 48 citations from independent sources (Newspapers, magazines, etc), 8 more from the New York Department of Education, and 21 from Stuy itself (or alumni groups, etc). Some of the stuy sources are used only to confirm the existance of items, such as the student government, and may be acceptable. At your convenience, could you tag a few examples of items you see that need citations? Thanks, UltraExactZZ ^Claims~ Evidence 14:49, 22 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

WP:MOS#Images issues throughout, text sandwiched between images. Incomplete ciations, see WP:CITE/ES, sample: ^ Nobel Prize laureates by secondary school affiliation. Uncited text: See "Notable people" for example. I haven't yet re-checked my full list above or read the article, but on a quick glance, it appears much improved. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 06:52, 25 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Any suggestions for correcting the "Sandwiching" effect of the History Section? Even moving the images around within the section, The Infobox pushes the postcard image down until it sandwiches text with the other photo on the left - and we can't start the first image on the left, unless the infobox changes that rule. I'll look at the other image issues. UltraExactZZ ^Claims~ Evidence 19:53, 25 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Images are OK now. I keep revisiting this article, intending to enter a Keep, but each time I find more unaddressed issues. There is still uncited data and I find MoS and citation errors each time I visit. See edit summaries and cite needed tags. This article is close, and should be a keep, with a little more work to push it over the hump. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:40, 27 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I've sourced everything in the Notable People section, though I'm stuck on Elias Stein. The source for stein's attendance at Stuy is a photo from the 1949 yearbook, as shown at a website for what appears to be a group of alumni from the Stuy Math Team who have compiled a list of the various math teams over the years. Is a High School yearbook good enough to cite someone's attendance at the school? I'll work on the other cites in a bit. UltraExactZZ ^Claims~ Evidence 14:59, 28 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

High school yearbooks are OK IMO. Five Years 16:21, 28 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

No, a high school yearbook is very far from reliable. If that's all you've got, I would remove the claim. Marskell (talk) 16:50, 29 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That's all I've got - The subject's CV and other papers list collegiate work, but not his HS - so I've removed the name and merged the mathemetician with the genomic research to form a line about notable scientists. I've sourced every other {{cn}} tag, and don't see any additional items in need of sourcing. UltraExactZZ ^Claims~ Evidence 16:59, 29 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the work. I think it's time to get this one out of here, last quibbles notwithstanding. Marskell (talk) 19:30, 30 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.