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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was archived by Sarastro1 via FACBot (talk) 21:24, 28 April 2017 [1].

William Pūnohu White

[edit]
Nominator(s): KAVEBEAR (talk) 19:54, 11 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

This is a second go around as recommended by the closing admin of the last nomination after drumming up some interest. Thanks.

Text from my last nomination: "This article is about William Pūnohu White, one of the leading Native Hawaiian political leader during the time of the overthrow of Hawaii which has generally been written as a conflict between the queen and American businessmen, neglecting the contributions of Native Hawaiian leaders (other than the queen) in the struggle. His colorful and controversial life is a great illustration of the different forms of resistance during the period between 1893 and 1898 against American imperialism in Hawaii and also the negative repercussions of misaligning against the Euro-American power holders in the islands at the time. This article was written and sourced on the same level of standard as my previous FA nominations. At this point, this article contains all existing knowledge about this figure."KAVEBEAR (talk) 19:54, 11 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Source review

Image review

Comments by Hawkeye7

[edit]
  • I don't understand note 5. What organisation was founded?
  • In May 1893 he organized the native community of Lahaina in removing the pro-annexationist Reverend Adam Pali of Waineʻe Church, who was asked to vacate the pastor's residence owned by church by July 8 I take it you mean he organised the native community, and they petitioned the Church to remove him? What happened here?
  • supporters of Rev. Pali Delete "Rev."; same with "Judge": use the title only on the first use
  • written with the use English language sources I don't understand this at all.
  • President Cleveland's refusal to annex the island stopped the annexationist scheme, prompted the Provisional Government to establish an oligarchical government, styling itself the Republic of Hawaii, until a more favorable political climate emerged in Washington. Insert "and" before "prompted"
  • I don't think that addition make sense. Breaking down the sentence. - The native resistance, the results of the Blount Report, and President Cleveland's refusal to annex the island stopped the annexationist scheme, [list of things, i. e. plural noun] prompted [verb] the Provisional Government to establish an oligarchical government, styling itself the Republic of Hawaii, until a more favorable political climate emerged in Washington. - Would it be better to break into two sentences: "The native resistance, the results of the Blount Report, and President Cleveland's refusal to annex the island stopped the annexationist scheme, prompted the Provisional Government to establish an oligarchical government, styling itself the Republic of Hawaii. This government would continue to rule until a more favorable political climate emerged in Washington."
  • the morning of the 12th Reformat the date

Hawkeye7 (talk) 23:31, 11 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Cas Liber

[edit]

Reading now..

White inherited the oratory skills of his Hawaiian ancestor Kaiakea, a legendary orator for King Kamehameha I - you've said in the para above he has oratory skills, so no need to mention them again here...and comes over as a bit effusive/puffy.
  • How about: "Born in Lahaina, Maui, of mixed Native Hawaiian and English descent, White was descended from Kaiakea, a legendary orator for King Kamehameha I."? There is this important cultural concept call kuleana in Hawaii that attributes ancestral traits and duties to their descendants. Or maybe a synonym instead, maybe?--KAVEBEAR (talk) 20:03, 12 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
he was an Englishman originally from Plymouth or Devon. - umm, Plymouth is in Devon, so needs to be reworded
Change to Plymouth, Devon. One obit said Plymouth and another said Devonshire so I was not sure and included each.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 20:03, 12 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
In 1891 White changed party alliance and joined the National Liberal Party. - I don't know much about Hawaiian politics, but this sentence is just there without any immediate explanation.
How so? It is explained in the following sentences. He became a traveling stump orator/advocate for the new party and the paragraph also explained some key stances of the new party.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 06:05, 13 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Presumably he became an advocate after he had switched - from reading it it doesn't give me an idea of why he switched. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 23:08, 16 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
@Casliber: Still a little confuse here. What do you want me to do here? The sources just indicates he switched political party during the months before this election; it does not state why but generally many of the Hawaiian politicians felt the National Reform Party was too conservative and not Hawaiian enough, so they broke off and form the Liberal Party. --KAVEBEAR (talk) 00:05, 17 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
White reportedly said, "He had always abhorred the idea of a republic," during a meeting of Hui Kālaiʻāina, on December 4, 1892 - it would be quotes and "I had always abhorred.." or he said that he had aways abhorred (without quotes).
I'm quoting the newspaper here. Added that part in there. --KAVEBEAR (talk) 06:05, 13 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I'd dequote and reword, as as it is written it makes no sense. All you need is a synonym for abhor. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 23:08, 16 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
IUser:Dank made an editor to it that I feel fixes the problem without changing any word.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 00:05, 17 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 02:07, 17 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Is the Hawaii Herald mentioned the same one as the predecessor to the Hawaii Tribune-Herald?
No it is not. His paper lasted only a few months. There is no connection.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 06:05, 13 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
After the overthrow, this Hawaiian political group switched its political agenda toward opposing annexation to the United States and restoring Liliʻuokalani - I'd put a "from" x and "to" x WRT agenda
Can you explain this suggestion a bit more? The effort was a local initiative by the local Euro-American community to annex themselves to the US rather than the US being the more active party in which case it would be annexation (efforts) from the US.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 06:05, 13 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
All you need to do is add a "from (old agenda)" after the "agenda" and before the "toward" Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 23:08, 16 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Done. --KAVEBEAR (talk) 00:05, 17 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The ending is a nice flourish. Nothing else is jumping out at me at present. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 04:32, 13 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Wehwalt

[edit]
  • In infobox, "The Honorable". Is this usual for Hawaii legislators? I know there is a consensus not to use the term (though it is proper) for US legislators, but Kingdom of Hawaii differs?
Removed.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 19:44, 13 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • My understanding of infobox practice is that the children should not be listed if they are not notable (and blue-linked) but the number of children should be listed instead. Also, you mention two here, but four are mentioned in the article.
Removed. No exact number are known. His obit listed two surviving children at the time of his death while census records indicate there were at least four..--KAVEBEAR (talk) 19:44, 13 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • The various occupations should not be capped except the first one. Sheriff? Really? Based on a 12-day term? Also, politician may be redundant with an officeholder ...
Changed. He was a sheriff during his early life as well before going into politics.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 19:44, 13 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Throughout both legislatures" possibly "throughout the terms of both legislatures"
Done.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 19:44, 13 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Serving as a legislator in the legislative assemblies" I might say "Representing Lahaina in the legislative assemblies" which better sets up the "Returning to Lahaina" later in the lede and avoids a near-repetition.
Done.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 19:44, 13 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Alongside Joseph Nāwahī, he was a principal author of the proposed 1893 Constitution with Queen Liliʻuokalani. " I imagine both were co-authors with White, but that's not totally clear the way it's phrased.
Changed.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 19:44, 13 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • "White's opponents tried to slander him in the English-language press and to diminish his support among Native Hawaiians by claiming he had tried to incite the people to storm the palace and harm the queen and her ministers." This seems a little long considering we are talking about a period of three days. Can't we just say "White's opponents falsely alleged he had tried to incite the people ..." I imagine the Iolani Palace is meant btw.
These three days are quite significant though. Shorten a bit and add link to Iolani Palace--KAVEBEAR (talk) 19:44, 13 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • "on his home island of Maui" given that you've already said where Lahaina is, I might just say "on Maui"
Changed.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 19:44, 13 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • " for running out " slang or cricket?
Synonym for expel.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 19:44, 13 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • "his many attempts to win re-elections" should be re-election if, a return to office after an absence would count as such.
This is summarizing his string of electoral defeats between 1902 and 1914..--KAVEBEAR (talk) 19:44, 13 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Some sort of link for the Hawaiian Territorial Legislature should be inserted.
Done.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 19:44, 13 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • "one of the oldest foreign residents in Hawaii" age or length of residence? And I might say foreign-born
Length of resident. Done.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 19:44, 13 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Jr" missing a dot, to be consistent with "Sr."
Done.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 19:44, 13 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • In the third paragraph, you should re-establish that you're talking about the subject of the article.
Done.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 19:44, 13 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Did William White have a mother? Is her family worthy of note? Can anything be said about White Jr.? The lack of detail on the parents seems a bit striking considering the depth of coverage of selected male ancestors.
Nothing is known about his mother and only the name of his father is mentioned. I couldn't find anything about either of them..--KAVEBEAR (talk) 19:44, 13 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • The long account of the (male) ancestors seems, well, long. Can some of it be omitted? For example the final sentence of the paragraph on White Sr. seems to have no great relevance to Wm. White. except by establishing his paternal grandfather likely wasn't a big influence because he didn't live in the same place as his grandson ...
How? They both lived in Lahaina. And the genealogy is important in Hawaiian culture especially for the half-caste individuals in regards to their Hawaiian ancestors and the ancestors who settled in Hawaii from foreign lands. It also establish the basic information of his family background which is otherwise unknown. --KAVEBEAR (talk) 19:44, 13 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Kaiakea" given his service under the king, it seems likely to me that he was Wm. White's great grandfather. Can this be stated?
Done. --KAVEBEAR (talk) 19:44, 13 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • "the Anglican mission boarding institution ran by Archdeacon George Mason in Lahaina. " ran should be run.
Done. --KAVEBEAR (talk) 19:44, 13 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • "He was educated with" Since you've mentioned someone else since last mention, I would say "White was educated with"
Done. --KAVEBEAR (talk) 19:44, 13 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • "He initially worked in law enforcement on the island of Hawaii and later became a lawyer and skilled orator." As you later go into all of this, why is this sentence needed?
Removed. --KAVEBEAR (talk) 19:44, 13 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Deputy Sheriff Kāmauʻoha was removed from his position for malfeasance and White was appointed his successor as deputy sheriff of North Kohala." deputy sheriff ... deputy sheriff. One should go.
Changed. --KAVEBEAR (talk) 19:44, 13 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • "strict attention to his duties, as well as his thorough integrity". This needs a cite, as does every quotation. I wonder if you need all that in-lifetime puffery in this and the next quotation.
Changed. --KAVEBEAR (talk) 19:44, 13 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • "It does not seem like he held this position for long because J. W. Moanauli was listed in 1886 in that post.[18] By 1885, he was living in Hilo where he had begun practicing law." The second sentence seems to obviate the need for the first.
Anyway to retain both? The first sentence explains the list of sheriffs changed to listing another individual in 1886 while he had moved elsewhere sometime before then in 1885. --KAVEBEAR (talk) 19:44, 13 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • "One of his other early official posts of note was as an agent to take acknowledgements to instruments on September 12, 1884.[21]" So he was basically a notary public. Is this greatly notable?
I mean one has to start somewhere and this come from his public service office card in the archives which only list this and the times he served as a legislator. --KAVEBEAR (talk) 19:44, 13 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • "He later became a member of the Hui Kālaiʻāina (Hawaiian Political Association), a Hawaiian political group founded in 1888 to oppose the Bayonet Constitution and promote Native Hawaiian leadership in the government." I would strike "Hawaiian" from the text as redundant, considering.
  • "King Kalākaua's coerced signing of the unpopular Bayonet Constitution of 1887." The year would probably be better off on first mention. Said constitution is referred to as "unpopular" four times. There seems to be a bit of POV.
I removed the extra ones from two of them but retained it for the intro and the paragraph following the "Legislature of 1892–93" section. It was not supported but many in the populace (because of restriction on suffrage) or the two monarchs (because it limited their powers) and the modern-day consensus in secondary sources is that it was an unpopular constitution. --KAVEBEAR (talk) 19:44, 13 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
More soon.--Wehwalt (talk) 08:11, 13 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Picking up:
  • I believe the guideline that you don't list non-notable children in the infobox also applies to parents, so I would delete that.
Done.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 18:42, 14 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • "it failed to pass and was defeated by vote of 24 to 16." I would delete "failed to pass and". An "a" needed before "vote".
Done.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 18:42, 14 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • " to travel around the other islands and canvas for the new party" Shouldn't that be "canvass"?
Done.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 18:42, 14 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The Liberal Party advocated for a constitutional convention to draft a new constitution to replace the unpopular Bayonet Constitution and increased Native Hawaiian participation in the government. " to avoid the repetition, I might say "to draft a replacement for the unpopular Bayonet Constitution ..." I would add a "for" before "increased".
Done.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 18:42, 14 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • "the party soon became was divided between radicals and more conciliatory groups. " some cleanup needed here.
Done.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 18:42, 14 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • "White and his wife march alongside other legislators and their spouses" marched.
Done.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 18:42, 14 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • "that was referred to a selected committee." likely the last two words should be select committee.
Done.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 18:42, 14 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • "economic depression on the islands' sugar industry" likely "in", not "on"
Done.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 18:42, 14 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • "constitution would increase the power of the monarchy, restore voting rights to economically disenfranchised Native Hawaiians and Asians, and remove the property qualification for suffrage imposed by the Bayonet Constitution" because "economically disenfranchised" is a bit ambiguous, I might say "constitution would increase the power of the monarchy, and would remove the property requirement to vote imposed by the Bayonet Constitution, thus restoring voting rights to Native Hawaiians and Asians" or some such.
There was a racial clause to the suffrage in the 1887 constitution which outlawed Asians from the vote outright though, so it was not solely based on property qualification. The sentence is only serving to introduce certain aspects of the proposed constitution and not meant to be exhaustive. --KAVEBEAR (talk) 18:42, 14 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Among the crowds were White and members of Hui Kālaiʻāina " they are not crowds individually, so I would say "Among them were White and members of Hui Kālaiʻāina "
Done.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 18:42, 14 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
More soon.--Wehwalt (talk) 13:40, 14 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • "sympathetic to the Reformer," I'm not sure what the Reformer is.
The Reform Party.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 18:15, 15 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • "White remained a royalist and agent to the deposed monarch on Maui" I would add a "the" before "agent" and change "to" to "of"
Done.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 18:15, 15 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • "asked him to vacate residence owned by church" "the" before "residence" and also before "church", I think.
Done.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 18:15, 15 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • "who held control of church, " I might say "in physical control of the church"
Done.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 18:15, 15 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • "the president of the group" "its president" is likely ample.
Done.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 18:15, 15 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • "stopped the annexationist scheme prompted the Provisional Government" some issue here, I imagine.
Changed.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 18:15, 15 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • "foreigners and natives alike in Maui (with the exception of Hana)" Hana is not a person. Possibly "residents of Hana" or some such.
Done.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 18:15, 15 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • " although the genial 'Sam' could change the euphony by adding another terminal vowel to his name." Not sure what this means. If it's a pun on Pua's name, it may be lost on most.
I feel like it should stay.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 18:15, 15 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • "for unpaid printing cost of the short-lived paper. " cost should probably be plural
Done.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 18:15, 15 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • "to paid" to pay
Done.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 18:15, 15 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • "they sent a memorial requesting for the restoration of the monarchy" "for" should likely be deleted.
Done.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 18:15, 15 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • "established after the Hawaiian Organic Act," likely "under" rather than "after".
Done.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 18:15, 15 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • The references at the end of the first paragraph of 1901 legislature are out of order.
Changed.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 18:15, 15 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The legislative assembly was later mockingly dubbed the "Lady Dog Legislature" because of extensive legislative debate" I would cut "legislative" before "debate" as repetition and not really needed anyway.
Done.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 18:15, 15 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • The length of the quote at the end of the section may be excessive, especially since it deals with the legislature as a whole, not specifically White.
I feel like it is quite important, though since it provides a modern evaluation about the legislature.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 18:15, 15 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Despite expecting an easy victory, he was defeated by Republican candidate Charles H. Dickey. " I might cut "despite".
It sounds odd without "despite".--KAVEBEAR (talk) 18:15, 15 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • "saw significant loss in the polls" I would change to "lost" and add a comma.
Done.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 18:15, 15 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • "However, it was soon placed on file by the Hawaii Supreme Court," I would change "file" to "hold"
Done.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 18:15, 15 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • "by an act of the following legislative session in 1905." acts are not passed by legislative sessions, but by legislatures.
Changed.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 18:15, 15 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I'll take a second look once this is done.--Wehwalt (talk) 12:31, 15 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
@Wehwalt: Done. Thank you so much for the thorough review. Please let me know if there are any other concerns. Thanks.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 18:15, 15 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Support' Well done. I would still mention that nothing is known of his mother and only a few details on father btw.--Wehwalt (talk) 19:06, 16 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you so much for the thorough the review. Your help is greatly appreciated. As for the last concern, it just what is available in the published sources. I'm sure that that information may only be known in unpublished oral knowledge by his descendants in Hawaii.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 19:10, 16 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Comments. As always, feel free to revert my copyediting. - Dank (push to talk)

  • I did some editing on this, but the going is rough, and I'm neither supporting nor opposing. I might or might not oppose future nominations, depending on how much work the prose needs on the day the article hits FAC. - Dank (push to talk) 02:06, 17 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Harry

[edit]

Call this an oppose for now on prose. That doesn't have to be permanent, but the article needs work to bring it up to 1a quality. The prose is very choppy and quite difficult to follow in places. You have a combination of run-on sentences with lots of subclauses and very short sentences, often several in a row presenting seemingly unrelated facts.

  • Just the first sentence of "Early life and family", for example, reads White was born on August 6, 1851,[1][3][4] at Lahaina, on the island of Maui, to John White, Jr.,[5] the son of John White, Sr. and Keawe. You're trying to cram too much information into one sentence so you end up with three subclauses in very quick succession. You have exactly the same problem a few sentences later: During the French Revolutionary Wars, he served on the frigate HMS Amelia, which was part of the North Sea fleet under the command of British Vice Admiral Adam Duncan, 1st Viscount Duncan, during his engagement with the Dutch (by the way, that looks like way too much detail on grandad; I'd trim everything after "HMS Amelia" and kill two birds with one stone).
  • at the age of either eighty-four or ninety use numerals (MOS:NUMERAL), and you need to explain the discrepancy.
    • Removed for simplicity's sake. Why would I go into the trouble of explaining that? It is just a discrepancy in the two obituaries which is common in the 19th century. Seem out of place to mention in a note or a separate sentence.
  • This school, which was founded by is redundant; "The school was founded by" would work, or better still "founded in 1863 by...."
  • White lived and worked as a police officer He lived as a police officer?
  • In April 1884, Kāmauʻoha was removed from starts a series of short sentences with little variety.
    • How? There are no repetition of sentences here. I would understand if it was somewhere where I go "He was" into infinity which I don't see here. Also I am trying to stick to an encyclopedic tone in general not writing a novel here. Can you find me an FA article on a similar subject in which the prose is to your standards? Thanks.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 18:10, 7 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
      • As it happens, I recall finding much less to criticise in another article of yours, Curtis P. Iaukea, when it came through MilHist A-class. But you could pick almost any FA biography to look for different techniques for phrasing things. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 01:12, 15 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
        • I'm surprise. That was a throwaway nom on my part to be honest; I barely worked on it while I've dugged up everything and work so much longer on this article. I will wait to see if any other reviewers have further comments along this line that could be more specific on what I can do to improve the prose --KAVEBEAR (talk) 01:25, 15 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
          • That's possibly the difference: it's a common flaw of Wikipedia articles that as editors uncover more information, we add it in but don't fully incorporate it into the surrounding text, which means it doesn't flow well from one sentence to the next. That's not the only cause, but it's a common one. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 01:39, 15 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

These are just a few examples picked out from skimming the first few sections. It needs going through with a fine comb to really make the prose engaging. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 14:48, 7 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Closing comment: This has been open for over six weeks now and seems to have stalled a little with two supports and an oppose. Therefore, I am archiving the nomination. It can be renominated after the usual 2 week wait. Sarastro1 (talk) 21:24, 28 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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