Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Walter Donaldson (snooker player)/archive1

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Hog Farm via FACBot (talk) 2 March 2022 [1].

Walter Donaldson (snooker player)

Nominator(s): BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 13:14, 7 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about the second-ever world snooker champion, who later converted his snooker room into a cowshed and used the slate from his billiard table for paving. I had fun digging out sources for the article; it's had a copyedit since getting GA status last year. Thanks in advance for any impovement suggestions. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 13:14, 7 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Image review—pass, no licensing issues found (t · c) buidhe 22:30, 7 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from ChrisTheDude

"Davis won the following two championships, with Donaldson taking the next, and then being runner-up to Davis for the next four years" => "Davis won the following two championships, with Donaldson taking the next and then being runner-up to Davis for the next four years"
"Donaldson then retired from World Championship competition, although continued to play in the News of the World Snooker Tournament until 1959." => "Donaldson then retired from World Championship competition, although he continued to play in the News of the World Snooker Tournament until 1959."
"Having returned to Rotherham after winning the Scottish titles," - is this necessary? There's no suggestion that he actually moved house to Glasgow to compete in the tournaments, so it's only logical that he went back home after they ended.
"Fred Davis reflected he had probably been" => "Fred Davis reflected that he had probably been"
"In the 1948 World Snooker Championship held only six months after the 1947 tournament," => "In the 1948 World Snooker Championship, held only six months after the 1947 tournament,"
"Davis wrote he had consciously" => "Davis wrote that he had consciously"
"The Billiard Player magazine identified Donaldson's success to" - "identify....to" isn't really a valid usage, so I would change "identified" to "attributed"
"The 1953 World Professional Match-play Championship final in March saw the players even at 6–6 after the first day" - which players?
"After the 1954 World Match-play final, Donaldson announced he would not be playing" => "After the 1954 World Match-play final, Donaldson announced that he would not be playing"
"Donaldson was married to Ida, who he met" => "Donaldson was married to Ida, whom he met"
"whilst noting his aversion to applying side" => "whilst noting that his aversion to applying side"
The WSC finals table shows Donaldson's score first for every final except 1951
Refs against second billiards final are not in numerical order
That's what I got :-) -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 19:58, 8 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Many thanks, ChrisTheDude. I've amended the article as per your observations. Regards, BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 17:25, 11 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Support -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 21:26, 13 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Support by Lee Vilenski

I'll begin a review of this article very soon! My reviews tend to focus on prose and MOS issues, especially on the lede, but I will also comment on anything that could be improved. I'll post up some comments below over the next couple days, which you should either respond to, or ask me questions on issues you are unsure of. I'll be claiming points towards the wikicup once this review is over.

Lede

Perhaps the article should say he contested the final between those dates and then mention that he won two of the events? Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 21:34, 13 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Amended. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 11:15, 25 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Could probably merge the first and third paras together. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 21:34, 13 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Done. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 11:15, 25 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

British Junior English Billiards Championship (Under-16 section) - could we prose-ify this? Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 21:34, 13 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Amended. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 11:15, 25 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

several times, can we be more specific? Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 21:34, 13 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Amended to "six". BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 11:15, 25 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Worth linking World War 2? Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 21:34, 13 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Linked. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 11:15, 25 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Prose

billiard room - I've never heard it called this before.... Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 10:38, 25 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
- Amended to "hall". BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 11:15, 25 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
"when a kiddie is brought up like that, the game gets fairly into his bones, and he has much more chance than other people of becoming a good player" - seems like a long quote for something pretty benign. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 10:38, 25 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
- Perhaps. Kept for now, will see if any other reviewers comment. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 11:15, 25 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
British Junior English Billiards Championship (Under-16 section) - could we not say he "won the Under-16 section of the British Junior..." rather than as a disambig. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 10:38, 25 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
- Amended. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 11:15, 25 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The first mention of snooker in the prose is him entering the world championship - no info on him playing it, or even mentioning it isn't the same game as billiards for the reader? Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 10:38, 25 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
- Will look again at sources regarding this. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 22:41, 29 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
as "It spoils the shot - caps typo. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 10:38, 25 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
- I thought the capitalisation should be retained as it's in the original, but I see from MOS:CONFORM that you are right. Amended. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 11:15, 25 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
claimed the title of "Scottish snooker champion" - is this a quote - I feel like we don't need to quote it. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 10:38, 25 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
- Qoutemarks removed. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 11:15, 25 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

--- Up to World championship finals and later professional career --

Apologies for the delay, been really busy.
the 1947 World Championship - considering we have talked about Billiards, probably best to say which sport this is Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 14:58, 28 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
- Amended. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 22:41, 29 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
This was the first of eight consecutive finals, from 1947 to 1954, featuring the two players, but Donaldson only won one more title in 1950.[13] - considering we go into detail about the finals, probably don't need to say which ones he won. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 14:58, 28 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
- Amended. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 22:41, 29 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
To me the rest is ok. I'm not a big fan of the quotebox, but I don't see how this has any problems with our policies. Happy to support. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 14:58, 28 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Additional comments

Additionally, if you liked this review, or are looking for items to review, I have some at my nominations list. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 21:27, 13 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

BennyOnTheLoose Any response? (t · c) buidhe 06:31, 25 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
- Hi Buidhe. Thank you for the image review. Looks like Lee's review is still in progress but I've responded to most of the points now. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 11:20, 25 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Mike Christie

I've copyedited a little; please revert anything you disagree with.

"In a two-week final against Fred Davis": Suggest saying the final is over 145 frames; without that most readers won't understand whether a score of 35-19 is insurmountably close to victory or just a big lead. When this changes -- e.g. in 1950 it was 97 frames -- let the reader know.

Added the details. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 14:34, 28 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not convinced that the day-by-day frame score changes are worth it. The account of the 1950 world final, for example, is
Davis led 8–4 after the first day,[37] and 14–10 after the second.[38] On the third day, Donaldson won eight of the twelve frames played, to level the match at 18–18, including five of the last six after he was 13–17 behind.[39] He won eight of twelve frames the following day, to lead 26–22.[40] He maintained his four-frame lead at 32–28 after each player took six frames on the fifth day,[41] and again at 38–34 after the sixth day,[42] before extending it to six frames at 45–39 on the penultimate day.[43] Donaldson's victory was confirmed on the last day when the score was 49–32, with the match ending at 51–46

Would the reader really miss much if we simplified it to this:
Davis led 8–4 after the first day, but after two more days Donaldson levelled the match at 18–18, including winning five of the last six that day. He took a four-frame lead the following day, and maintained it for several days, eventually extending it to six frames at 45–39 on the penultimate day. Donaldson's victory was confirmed on the last day when the score was 49–32, with the match ending at 51–46."?

I think something like this should be done elsewhere -- convert the daily scores into more of a narrative.

Other than that this is looking in good shape. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 23:05, 5 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, Mike Christie. I'll work on these over the next few days. Regards, BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 09:17, 7 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Benny, how's this going? Gog the Mild (talk) 14:51, 18 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Gog the Mild, I'm not at home for a few days and don't have access to all sources until I return, but should be able address these and the outstanding itens from Nikkimaria in the next few days (unlikely before 23rd). Regards, BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 09:56, 19 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Apologies fo the delay, Mike Christie. I used your wording for the 1950 final, and tried to trim others a bit, but happy to work on them further if necessary. Regards, BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 14:34, 28 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Support. I think that's an improvement. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 22:40, 28 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Source review

Spotchecks not done. Version reviewed

I see the article specifies that he died in an ambulance on the way to hospital from his home in Newport Pagnell - do sources confirm that the actual location of death was Newport Pagnell?

Swapped one of the references for an obituary that says Donaldson "died ... at Newport Pagnell, where he had lived since 1950." BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 10:08, 12 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I see that the text confirms he had an aversion to use of side, but is there a source for him being known for that aversion?

Having referred back to some sources, I've reworded this. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 14:26, 12 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

FN1: neither link appears to be working

Replaced the paywalled source. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 14:26, 12 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Be consistent in when you include publisher - eg FNs 73 and 74 are the same publication but one has it and the other doesn't
Why do some The Billiard Player refs include number and others not?

Removed the two issue references for consistency. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 10:08, 12 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Be consistent in when you include location
What makes Kobyhadrian Books a high-quality reliable source? Partridge Press?

Partridge Press is, or was, an imprint of Transworld Publishers. (See [2].) I'll reply later re: Kobyhadrian Books. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 10:33, 12 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Kobylecky has been called "snooker's most tireless researcher" by Clive Everton (in Snooker Scene, August 2021, page 9), and the book, which is primarily a compilation of results and statistics, is sold via Everton's magazine. Kobylecky is also the author of various volumes of A History of the World Cup from Heart Books ([3]). If you aren't happy that this passes WP:SELFPUB, then alternative sources shouldn't be difficult to find. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 19:30, 12 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Retrieval dates aren't needed for GBooks links

Amended. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 10:08, 12 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I don't see that FN25 supports the claim being cited to it?

Removed that reference, and the location from the prose. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 10:08, 12 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

What kind of source is FN31?

This Pot Black was a widely-available magazine sold in UK newsagents. It was later acquired by, and merged with, Snooker Scene. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 10:08, 12 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Compare formatting of FNs 7 and 85. Nikkimaria (talk) 03:20, 10 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Combined. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 10:08, 12 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Nikkimaria, any further thoughts on this one? Gog the Mild (talk) 14:50, 18 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Point 4 (inconsistent use of publisher) and 6 (locations) are still pending. Nikkimaria (talk) 00:38, 19 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Nikkimaria. Many thanks for the review. Hopefully I've fixed the issues with inconsistent publisher and location details. I'm happy to provide extracts from the offline sources via Wikipedia email if there's anything you would like to check. Let me know if more is neeed. Regards, BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 12:21, 26 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Could you explain in what cases you're intended to include publisher and location? I'm having trouble discerning a pattern. (Also looks like there's a citation error in FN3). Nikkimaria (talk) 13:27, 26 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Nikkimaria. My intention was to include publisher for websites, books and magazines, but not newspapers. I tried to include location only for books (except the one where no location is given). Happy to make this more standard across types of source by adding more details if necessary. Regards. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 22:16, 27 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Okay - are locations sometimes included within publisher name? Eg Mirus. Nikkimaria (talk) 04:55, 28 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The company publishing Pot Black was Mirus (UK) Limited, so I think the "(UK)" should probably be retained. I've also retained the "Sydney" after Tatterall's Club (and wikilinked it) as that appears to be distinct from the Melbourne Tattersalls Club and others. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 14:11, 28 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. Should be good to go here then. Nikkimaria (talk) 03:08, 1 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Closing note: This candidate has been promoted, but there may be a delay in bot processing of the close. Please see WP:FAC/ar, and leave the {{featured article candidates}} template in place on the talk page until the bot goes through. Hog Farm _Talk 19:27, 2 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.