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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was archived by Ian Rose via FACBot (talk) 15 December 2022 [1].

Tahmasp I

[edit]
Nominator(s): Amir Ghandi (talk) 13:50, 30 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

My second attempt in nominating this article which is about Tahmasp I, the second (and my favourite) Safavid Shah of Iran. The article has been through two copy edits already and I believe both images and sources are fine as well. Pinging @Johnbod: who was one of the reviewers of the first nomination. I sincerely ask them to review this again, if they are not busy that is. Amir Ghandi (talk) 13:50, 30 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Coordinator note: Just flagging up that as a first-time nomination this will need a spot check for source to text fidelity. Gog the Mild (talk) 15:57, 19 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Phlsph7

[edit]
Disclaimer: I'm only getting started with FA reviewing so please let me know if my comments missed the mark.
  • The article oscillates between American and British English (like center vs centre). I would default to American English unless there is a significant relation to Britain.
I personally prefer to write in British English, so I'll be changing American to British if that's no matter. Amir Ghandi (talk) 17:17, 4 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    • favoured -> favored
    • sheikh -> sheik
    • afterwards -> afterward
    • centre -> center
    • behaviours -> behaviors
    • rumours -> rumors
    • favour -> favor
    • favourable -> favorable
    • favours -> favors
    • travelled -> traveled
    • honoured -> honored
    • favourite -> favorite
    • travelling -> traveling
    • patronised -> patronized
    • characterised -> characterized
    • characterisation -> characterization
  • "Tahmasp was a patron of the arts, building a royal house of arts for painters, calligraphers and poets, and was an accomplished painter himself." The two "and"s following each other sound a little strange to my ears. What about splitting it into two sentences: "Tahmasp was a patron of the arts and was an accomplished painter himself. He built a royal house of arts for painters, calligraphers and poets."?
Done
  • "Sh'ia" Should the apostroph be after the "i" or should it be removed? Some later passages use the spelling "Shia".
To be honest both variations are correct.
  • earwig shows a copyvio with [2] concerning the passage "The reigns of Esmāʿil I and his son Ṭahmāsb I (r. 1524-76) are considered the most brilliant period in the history of the Azeri Turkish language and literature at this stage of its development."
Amended it
  • The passage "For their part the Ottomans guaranteed Iranian pilgrims free passage to Mecca, Medina, Karbalā, and Naǰaf. The treaty enabled the Ottomans to devote themselves to the western front and internal problems. Iran was able to consolidate its forces and resources, while its western provinces were able to recover from war. The peace was kept by both sides until the death of Shah Ṭahmāsb (984/1576), when the ensuing troubles in Iran encouraged the Ottomans to occupy those regions of the Caucasus claimed by both countries." contains various close paraphrases from [3]. For safety, it might be good to reformulate them a little more.
I only see two sentence resembling the passage, "The Ottomans guaranteed Iranian pilgrims free passage to Mecca, Medina, Karbala, and Najaf." and "Moreover, this treaty enabled Iran to consolidate its forces and resources, while its western provinces were able to recover from the war." And yet, I don't think they are quite alike with the linked article.
  • "seyyid": is the spelling "sayyid" more common?
Both are seemed to be used commonly
  • "... a storm erupted, with wind and rain and lightning.": remove one "and" and add an Oxford comma: "... a storm erupted, with wind, rain, and lightning."
Done
  • "Rumlu proposed a triumvirate to the two leaders which were accepted,...": "was" instead of "were"
Done
  • "Rumlu was blamed for the raids, and was executed by Tahmasp." no comma after "raids"
Done
  • "He appointed his brother, Bahram Mirza, governor of Khorasan and Ghazi Khan Takkalu as Bahram's tutor." I think the commas should be like this: "He appointed his brother Bahram Mirza, governor of Khorasan and Ghazi Khan Takkalu, as Bahram's tutor."
Done
  • "The first Ottoman invasion may have been the greatest crisis of Tahmasp's reign, since the Shamlu tribe ": no comma before "since"
Done
  • "Alqas fled to the Crimea with his remaining forces and took refuge with Suleiman, promised to restore Sunni Islam in Iran and encouraged him to lead another campaign against Tahmasp.": It might be better to split it up into two sentences: "Alqas fled to the Crimea with his remaining forces and took refuge with Suleiman. He promised to restore Sunni Islam in Iran and encouraged him to lead another campaign against Tahmasp." It's not clear to me who promised and who encoured whom, so maybe better repeat the name to make this clear.
Amended it; Alqas promises Suleiman.
  • "The long campaign focused on looting as they plundered Hamadan, Qom and Kashan before...": Oxford comma after "Qom"
Done
  • "These terms, in circumstances favourable to the Safavids, were evidence of the frustration felt by the Suleiman the Magnificent...": no "the" before "Suleiman"
Done
  • " One year before the Peace of Amasya in 1554, Tahmasp led his last military campaign to into the Caucasus.": remove "to" before "into"
Done
  • "Moving into a city which with an ancient route through Khorasan linked the realm,...": there is something wrong with this clause. What about "Moving into a city that linked the realm to Khorasan through an ancient route,..."? Maybe additionally drop the "through an ancient route"\
Done, though I'm afraid I have to keep the ancient route part
  • "as distant provinces such as Shirvan, Georgia and Gilan were brought into the Safavid fold. ": Oxford comma after Georgia
Done
  • "He sent copies of Quran as gifts to the Ottoman Empire; overall, during his reign, eighteen copies of Quran were " in both cases: "copies of the Quran"
Done
  • "A panel of calligraphic manuscript..." add "a" before calligraphic
Done
  • "his daughters were instructed in administration, art and scholarship": Oxford comma after "art"
Done
  • "..and instead of facing the Ottomans directly in the battlefield,..": comma after "and"
Done
  • "and also establishing a public image which was not maintained by his successors": "that" instead of "which"
Done
  • "despite his greed, piety led him to forgo of taxes of about 30,000 tomans": no "of" after "forgo"
Done
I hope these comments were helpful. Phlsph7 (talk) 12:12, 4 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the prompt response.
  • Concerning the similar phrases: The sentences in our article are "The Ottomans guaranteed Iranian pilgrims free passage to Mecca, Medina, Karbala, and Najaf." and "Moreover, this treaty enabled Iran to consolidate its forces and resources, while its western provinces were able to recover from the war." while the sentences from the source are "For their part the Ottomans guaranteed Iranian pilgrims free passage to Mecca, Medina, Karbalā, and Naǰaf." and "Iran was able to consolidate its forces and resources, while its western provinces were able to recover from war.". I'm not sure whether this falls under WP:PARAPHRASE. How about "The Ottomans allowed Iranian pilgrims to travel freely to Mecca, Medina, Karbala, and Najaf" and "Through this treaty, Iran had time to increase its forces and resources as its western provinces had the opportunity to recuperate from the war."
Done
  • I think the English variant doesn't matter for this article as long as it is consistent. For British English, the following should be changed:
    • centered -> centred
    • center -> centre
    • worshiping -> worshipping
    • behavior -> behaviour
    • centers -> centres
    • acknowledgment -> acknowledgement
All done
  • "Alqas fled to the Crimea with his remaining": no "the" before Crimea
Done
Some of these links are names that are repeated in a list and I would like to keep it that way because I think things in lists should always be linked. Your thought? Other than that, other links were delinked.
Phlsph7 (talk) 18:27, 4 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure about the details on the repeated wikilinks. MOS:REPEATLINK has some information. Personally, I include more links at times if I have the impression that there is a good reason to believe that it would be helpful to the reader. Phlsph7 (talk) 10:49, 6 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Alright, I went and delinked some of the repeated links, are they balanced now?
Amir Ghandi (talk) 12:14, 6 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I would remove the following links: to Bahram Mirza and Isfahan in the regency section and to Khorasan in the early life section. Otherwise the links looks fine to me. Phlsph7 (talk) 13:48, 6 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Done Amir Ghandi (talk) 13:58, 6 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
A few more things that caught my eye in relation to MOS:WTW:
  • "The great poet, Fuzuli,...": great
Changed it with 'renowned'
  • "Tahmasp's most celebrated contribution...": most celebrated
Changed it with 'preeminent' and 'acclaimed'
  • "A remarkable and successful act...": remarkable
Deleted 'remarkable'
  • "Tahmasp held firmly to the extremist Shi’i belief in the imminent coming of the Mahdi": I don't know enough about Shia beliefs to assess whether the "extremist" is appropriate here. A weaker alternative would be "controversial". Should "Shi’i" be "Shia" to be consistent with the spelling elsewhere?
Replaced extremist with controversial and changed Shi'i to Shia
  • "...has been described as a lustful miser and a religious bigot.": "has been described as" is listed as one of the weasel phrases. Maybe "lustful miser" and "religious bigot" should be in quotes to make it clear to the reader that these expressions are taken directly from the source.
Done. Should I change the weasel phrase too?
Phlsph7 (talk) 15:10, 7 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
How about mentioning the scholar(s) who use these words: 'Tahmasp I made little impression on Western historians, who often compared him with his father. For example, scholars ... and ... describe him as a "lustful miser" and a "religious bigot"'. Phlsph7 (talk) 17:07, 7 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Done, though I couldn't find the name of the authors but expand upon the statement. Amir Ghandi (talk) 18:26, 7 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I had a look at the source: it confirms the claim but, unfortunately, it doesn't go into specifics who described him this way. It contains the term "miser" but not "lustful miser". So I propose we remove the term "lustful". Your newly added phrases are again very close to WP:PARAPHRASE so I suggest either removing them or reformulating them, for example, by using synonyms and by changing the sentence structure. Phlsph7 (talk) 18:50, 7 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Deleted 'lustful' and changed the phrases 18:58, 7 November 2022 (UTC) Amir Ghandi (talk) 18:58, 7 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Like this it works fine. Phlsph7 (talk) 19:26, 7 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Comments Support from Constantine

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Will have a look over the following days. Constantine ✍ 10:43, 5 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Lede
  • Did some copyedits for prose; feel free to revert.
  • He soon faced a longstanding war I think you mean long-lasting?
Amended it
  • The Ottomans, under Suleiman the Magnificent, tried to put their favoured candidates given that the Ottomans were just as absolute a monarchy, perhaps 'The Ottoman sultan, Suleiman the Magnificent...' and perhaps 'rival candidates' instead of 'favoured candidates', as the Ottomans just backed whomever opposed Tahmasp?
Amended it
  • sovereignty over Baghdad actually over most of Iraq, of which Baghdad was merely a part
Done
  • Tahmasp still negotiated alliances perhaps add that these were directed against his Ottoman rivals? And it would also make sense, given the emphasis on his Shi'a faith, to also add that the Ottomans were equally fervently Sunni?
Done, though I think the Ottoman part is excessively detailed for the lead section, after all, it's not a necessary detail.
Background
  • provide a gloss for 'tariqa', 'ulama', 'seyyid', 'mujtahid', 'vakil', and ensure that all non-English terms are denoted as transliterations by use of the {{transl|fa|}} or {{transl|ar|}} templates.
All done (vakil is the shorter version of the title vakil-e nafs-e nafs-e homayoun, which is already explained.)
Fixed the use of the templates, they are meant for the non-English terms, not the glosses. Please use the templates throughout the article, though. Constantine ✍ 12:43, 13 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Clarify the connection between Ismail I and Shaykh Junayd and Shaykh Haydar
Done
  • Make sure that terms are linked the first time they are introduced in the main text (e.g. Qizilbash)
Done
  • Clarify the ethnic origin of the Qizilbash tribes
Done
  • I suggest providing regnal dates for all rulers (use the {{reign}} template)
Done

Will do the remaining sections later. Constantine ✍ 07:01, 8 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Early life, Regency
  • he was heaped with utmost joy and happiness I don't think 'heaped' is the correct verb here
It's the verb used by the source, I don't know what I could use as a replacement
If it is a quote, then please denote it as a quote. Otherwise find a way to describe it without WP:Close paraphrasing the source. Constantine ✍ 13:50, 19 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Done
  • Be consistent in spelling 'Shia' or 'Shi'a' or 'Shiite', 'ulama' or 'olama', etc. And please use the transliteration template for all non-English technical terms, not just in this section, but throughout.
Should I repeat the transilation for the words that were already transilated? (Like ulama which is already explained in the Background section.)
Done
I think there is a misunderstanding here: a gloss, i.e. a translation, is what should be provided at the first mention of a foreign term. A transliteration (not a translation) is what the foreign term is, as you do not use the Persian or Arabic letters here. E.g. 'olama\ulema' is a transliteration and should be always enclosed in the transliteration template. There are many terms, e.g. ''tufangchiyan'', where this is still not done. Constantine ✍ 13:50, 19 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I would also recommend glossing amir al-umara as 'commander-in-chief' because that it what it means. Constantine ✍ 13:50, 19 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Now all done
In the process of doing
Done
Still a lot of MOS:DUPLINKs. I recommend installing and using the User:Evad37/duplinks-alt tool. Constantine ✍ 13:50, 19 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Alright, I think I've cleared all the duplinks
  • a series of battles in northwest Iran battles between whom? for what cause?
The three of the tribes: Ostajlu, Takkalu and Rumlu
  • this event is dubbed "the Takkalu pestilence" which even exactly? the rule of Chuha Sultan, or his death?
His downfall and the massacre of his tribe (In early 1530, the Herat governor, Hossein Khan Shamlu, and his men killed Chuha and executed every Takkalu in the retinue of the shah in the royal camp)
Hmmm, but I don't understand how the massacre of the Takkalu is a pestilence; I can understand if Chuha's regime is dubbed 'the Takkalu pestilence' by his opponents, justifying their violent purge, but the event itself? Are you sure of this reference? Constantine ✍ 13:50, 19 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The source definitely meant the Takkalu purge. This is the passage from the source: 'Shah Ṭahmāsp symbolically disentangled himself from this political debacle by ordering the wholesale execution of those Takkalu tribesmen in attendance, and the event was dubbed “the Takkalu pestilence” (āfat-e Takkalu) in contemporaneous Persian chronicles and later scholarship.' I think its the usage of the word. Other sources like Savory 2007 use the term 'Takkalu disaster'.
  • Aggressive court behaviour what is that? Do you mean 'overbearing' or something like that?
I don't know; I only wrote what the source said.
Never mind; found information on what 'aggressive court begaviour' meant and added them to the article.
Reign
  • may have considered a strong Safavid empire a threat why 'may'? It stands to reason that another major empire on his eastern border is a threat. I would also recommend adding here why it was a threat: not just as a rival imperial power, but an ideological rival as well.
Well, the source does not seem to be so sure about assuming what Suleiman position about the Safavids was; although it has included a reason to why he would think them as a threat: a danger to Suleiman's ambitious plans in the west and the northwest of his realm. (Included the reason in the article by the way)
  • Olama Beg was one of many Takkalu members who, after Chuha's death, took refuge in the Ottoman Empire. The flight of the Takkalu should be mentioned above, when Chuha' downfall is told.
Done
  • may have been the greatest crisis of Tahmasp's reign since the Shamlu tribe unsuccessfully tried to poison him 'since' here is probably meant as 'as', or rather, 'as indicated by the fact', right? But the argument needs some elaboration: why is the poison attempt an indication that the Ottoman invasion was the greatest crisis? As you write, the Shamlu had enough reason to try and get rid of Tahmasp since he removed Hossein Khan from power.
Alright, so this one needed some rewording. It wasn't 'may have been' but rather, 'caused'.
  • "In Jumada II 961/May 1554 he left his winter camp in Aleppo for Amid and advanced as far as the Armenian territory of Qarabagh in the southern bend of the Araxes." why is this footnote needed? The text pretty much says the same thing already.
Not my doing to be honest. A user (allegedly Azerbaijani) claimed that the source of this sentence did not use the word 'Armenian Qarabagh' and another user proved him otherwise by adding this footnote.
I would recommend removing it. The modern Armenian-Azeri dispute over Karabagh is not relevant. It is not for this article to prove to whom the territory belonged. Constantine ✍ 13:50, 19 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Done
  • indicating a significantly larger Safavid army compared to?
The two former wars
...indicating a significantly larger Safavid army than what their number was before. -> "...indicating a Safavid army that had grown much larger than it was in the previous wars' or similar. Constantine ✍ 13:50, 19 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Done
  • against the divided state's many kings hmm, is it not rather that there were several Georgian states at the time, each with its own king?
Indeed; amended it
Georgian divided states is again problematic; 'divided' is a reference to the previous unitary Georgian realm, and thus is editorializing. Would you call the German states of 1800 'divided German states'? So just 'the Georgian states' or 'the Georgian kingdoms'. Constantine ✍ 13:50, 19 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Done
  • he brought 30,000 Georgians to Iran. One of those prisoners was Luarsab's mother, Nestan Darejan, who committed suicide as she was captured. the wording implies that Nestan Darejan committed suicide right after her capture, so how was she brought to Iran?
Reworded it
  • The conversation of these Georgian Princes I think you mean 'conversion'? Otherwise I don't know what is meant here.
Typo; amended it
  • A reminder to gloss and italicize (use the template) terms like 'gholam' and 'qurchi'.
Done
  • The fact that Ismail Mirza was imprisoned comes as a complete surprise to the reader. Why and when was he imprisoned?
Added a footnote explaining it
Looks good, but are you sure that 'immured' is correct? Immurement usually results in death pretty quickly, and Ismail was alive for years. Constantine ✍ 13:50, 19 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Replaced immured with 'imprisoned'

Will do the remainder later today. Constantine ✍ 12:43, 13 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Policies
  • The Safavid military evolved during Tahmasp's reign, particularly gunners (tupchiyan) and musketeers (tufangchiyan) If you mean that the latter were introduced for the first time by Tahmasp, say it.
Reworded that sentence; their actually were developed by Ismail I during his last years
  • The incorporation of Gilan is alluded to, but nowhere mentioned above.
I don't know where else should I mention it. Moreover, the incorporation of Shirvan is also only mentioned, so us there any special reason that Gilan should be discussed in a broader sense?
Well you write distant provinces such as Shirvan, Georgia, and Gilan were brought into the Safavid fold.. Georgia gets its own section, and Shirvan is at least alluded to as part of Alqas Mirza's revolt. But Gilan is only mentioned in the context of the Ottomans' trying to secure support there. Constantine ✍ 18:59, 21 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Added a sentence regarding the incorporation of Gilan
  • Tahmasp's reign saw the Shia conversion of whom?
I meant to say that he continued the Shia conversion.
Again though, of whom? Of Iran, I assume? Write it out. Constantine ✍ 18:59, 21 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Done
  • Tahmasp has been called the greatest Safavid patron. by whom?
Douglas Streusand calls him the greatest Safavid patron. Moreover, in my research, I stumbled upon two books by James Elkins and Stuart Cary Welch, who both are art historians, who call Tahmasp 'a prominent' and 'the great patron of arts' respectively.
Legacy
  • Such traits indeed would throw a murky light on Tahmasp as a person and as a ruler, however, his personality would appear in a more favourable light ... this is editorializing. If it is not your opinion, attribute or quote it.
Done
  • It is also an achievement in itself ditto.
Done
Sources
Done
  • Standardize whether ISBNs are hyphenated or not
Eh... I've consider doing this and attempted many times. But its just such a tedious task and I don't know what will it accomplish.
Not a problem for me personally, but it is considered desirable to have a common formatting of such for FA candidates. I've certainly been asked this often enough. Constantine ✍ 18:59, 21 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Cplakidas, I added the hyphenated ISBNs to the sources that had one, for others, I just failed to find a hyphenated of their ISBNs
  • Add OCLC for Hinz
Done
  • Why are Dickson 1958 and Aldous 2021 not used in the article? They both seem relevant to important aspects of Tahmasp's reign.
I don't have access to Aldous 2021 and Dickson 1958 is just a really old source, though very informative about the early years of Tahmasp's reign
@Amir Ghandi: here you go. I also have institutional access to a variety of similar sources. If you need anything, ping me. Constantine ✍ 21:17, 13 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Cplakidas Thanks; but I can't see anything except for a line saying 'the link is deleted by the owner' Amir Ghandi (talk) 09:51, 14 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Amir Ghandi: Odd. Try with this one. Constantine ✍ 18:14, 15 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, it worked; I'll be incorporating the new information in the following days. Amir Ghandi (talk) 10:08, 16 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

That's it for a first pass. Overall the article appears comprehensive, well-referenced, and easy to follow (although I am somewhat knowledgeable on the period and topic). Will do another pass when my points above are addressed. Constantine ✍ 14:37, 13 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Cplakidas, I've addressed all your points. Amir Ghandi (talk) 12:03, 21 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

A couple of outstanding issues (not stricken through) above, plus some additional comments, mostly to new additions/changes:

  • His patronage of arts had a large part in marking the Safavid empire an imperial entity of any significant I guess there are typos here for 'His patronage of arts had a large part in making the Safavid empire an imperial entity of any significance'? But I find this statement dubious; 'of any significance' according to whom? An empire of this size would have been 'significant' even if its ruler had been an utter philistine.
I decided to change that sentence, any thoughts about the new one?
  • German historian, Hans Robert Roemer argues that although such traits would throw a murky light on Tahmasp as a person and as a ruler, however, his personality would appear in a more favourable light when, despite his greed, piety led him to forgo taxes of about 30,000 tomans because collecting them would offend the religious law. Please break up this sentence.
Amended that sentence entirely.

Otherwise it looks good to me, and I enjoyed reading the article. I will be happy to support once the remaining issues are taken care of. Constantine ✍ 18:59, 21 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Cplakidas All remaining points are addressed. Amir Ghandi (talk) 09:36, 22 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Amir Ghandi: Changes look good. Last remaining issues: refs #56 and #59 need correct dates. But I am happy to support at this point. Constantine ✍ 17:51, 22 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

[edit]
Done Amir Ghandi (talk) 11:16, 23 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Looks good. Support--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 18:20, 28 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Coordinator note

[edit]

This has been open for more than three weeks and has yet to pick up a support. Unless it attracts considerable movement towards a consensus to promote over the next three or four days I am afraid that it is liable to be archived. Gog the Mild (talk) 11:13, 21 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Dudley

[edit]
  • I see that I commented and supported the previous nomination, but I will review again.
  • "tried to put rival candidates of Tahmasp on the Safavid throne". Sounds a bit clumsy. Maybe " tried to install his own candidates on the Safavid throne"
Done
  • "who inherited the Safavid order from his grandfather". I think "who inherited leadership of the Safavid order from his grandfather" would be better.
Done
  • "a state war-ridden after the collapse". External or internal wars? If internal, maybe "a state mired in civil war after the collapse"
Internal wars; amended it
  • "Ismail's realm contained the modern Iranian borders". This is unclear. Maybe "Ismail's realm included the whole territory of modern Iran"
Done
  • "(Islamic scholar who performs the Islamic law)" Performing law does not make sense.
Amended it
  • "Clashes between the Qizilbash leaders and Persian bureaucrats climaxed in the Battle of Ghazdewan between Ismail's vakil, Najm-e Sani, and the Uzbeks." This is unclear. You need to explain the connection between the bureaucrats and the Uzbeks.
Amended it; any thoughts?
  • "Clashes between the Qizilbash leaders and Persian bureaucrats climaxed in the Battle of Ghazdewan between Ismail's vakil, the Persian Najm-e Sani, accompanied by the Qizilbash, with the Uzbeks." This is still unclear. It seems to say that the Qizilbash leaders and Persian bureaucrats were on the same side against the Uzbeks. Dudley Miles (talk) 10:31, 29 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
They were on the same side; Persians and the Qizilbash were both a part of the Safavid bureaucracy while the uzbeks were the enemy.Amir Ghandi (talk) 10:39, 29 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Done
Chinggisid is a word meaning a descendant of Genghis Khan. The article itself doesn't use it but the source and many other academical researches use this word frequently.
Done
  • "Tahmasp Mirza for short". This is too colloquial, and also unnecessary as you almost always refer to him as Tahmasp.
Deleted it
  • "was a result of many of the Qizilbash forces leaving the vakil to fight on his own". Presumably not literally on his own. Maybe "was the result of the desertion of many of the Qizilbash".
Done
  • You describe both Sam Mirza and Alqas Mirza as Tahmasp's younger brother. "Younger" implies one of two, which is obviously not correct. You should clarify.
Done
  • "deferring to Sunni Islam, he banned the holding of Omar Koshan (a festival commemorating the assassination of the second caliph Umar ibn al-Khattab) and expressing hatred towards the Rashidun caliphs, who are held dear by the Sunni Muslims" This is confused and ungrammatical. You appear to say that he deferred to the Sunnis and expressed hatred of caliphs they held dear.
@Dudley Miles Typo; I actually meant deference
  • "Tahmasp also had the governor of Tbilisi, Golbad, converted to Islam." "had" does not make sense here. Maybe persuaded or forced.
Amended it
  • Haydar Mirza was quickly eliminated" Murdered?
Amended it
  • "The description of Battle of Jam". This sounds wrong. Maybe "A description of the Battle of Jam".
Amended it
  • "He sent copies of the Quran as gifts to the Ottoman Empire" Empire or emperor?
Well, he sent Quran to several of Ottoman sultans, so I went with the Empire
Amended it. Amir Ghandi (talk) 08:57, 8 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "and he worked on Chehel Sotoun's balcony paintings" You mean that he personally helped to paint them?
Yes
  • "The departure of poets such as Naziri Nishapuri and 'Orfi Shirazi marked the rise of Indian-style poetry, introducing Persian to Indian literature." This is unclear. Why did the departure mark the rise of Indian-style poetry? Also, what is meant by introducing Persian to Indian literature? The Persian language was influenced by Indian literature?
Reworded the first part and deleted the second for redundancy
  • "The departure of poets such as Naziri Nishapuri and 'Orfi Shirazi and their arrival in the Mughal court marked the rise of Indian-style poetry (Sabk-i Hindi), known for its high-rhetorical texts of metaphors, mystical-philosophical themes and allegories." I still do not understand it. You seem to be saying that the arrival of Persian poets at the Mughal Court caused the rise of Indian style poetry in India. Dudley Miles (talk) 16:30, 7 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Dudley Miles What if I replace the sentence with 'the immigration of poets such as Naziri Nishapuri and 'Orfi Shirazi from Iran to the Mughal court marked the rise of Indian-style poetry (Sabk-i Hindi), known for its high-rhetorical texts of metaphors, mystical-philosophical themes and allegories'?Amir Ghandi (talk) 18:14, 7 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • I am still confused. How about "Iranian poets such as Naziri Nishapuri and 'Orfi Shirazi emigrated to the Mughal court. They were exponents of Indian-style poetry (Sabk-i Hindi), known for its high-rhetorical texts of metaphors, mystical-philosophical themes and allegories, and their arrival led to its rise at the court." Is this what you mean? Dudley Miles (talk) 23:31, 7 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Dudley Miles I think I now understand what you were confused about. I didn't mean that their 'arrival' caused the rise of Indian-style, but they themselves pioneered it. I changed your sentence a little bit and incorporated it into the article. Hope the confusion has is resolved. Amir Ghandi (talk) 07:04, 8 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "most of his children were of Caucasian origin". Caucasian race is an outdated concept which is no longer considered valid. I would delete.
What if I link it to South Caucasus or Peoples of the Caucasus?
Amended it
  • "Murad Mirza (d. 1545), governor of Kandahar; died in infancy". Maybe "nominal governor".
Done
  • The family section is oddly placed before coinage. Maybe move to the end if that will not cause any problems.
Done
  • The coinage section is a bit thin.
Expanded it a bit
  • What does shahi mean?
shahi literary means 'kingly'. Its the name given to the golden coins
Done
  • The collapse in the weight of coins from c. 8 to 3 g needs some comment if there is any reliable source.
Done
Replaced it with travelled.
  • "Old copper coins were also kept in circulation based on their validation." What does "based on their validation" mean?
Explained it a further in the article. Any thought?
  • "Tahmasp I's reign started through an era of civil wars between the Qizilbash leaders after the death of Ismail I that forewarned the realm of a deep crisis; a sign that Ismail I's charismatic characterisation as Messiah which had urged the Qizilbash to follow him had come to an end with Tahmasp's succession." This is clumsy. Maybe "Tahmasp I's reign started in an era of civil wars between the Qizilbash leaders after the death of Ismail I, whose charismatic characterisation as Messiah, which had been accepted by the Qizilbash, came to an end with Tahmasp's succession."
Amended it
  • "A successful act to break from the influence of the Qizilbash, taking the reins of power within ten years, after the realm had been through the civil war between the plotting tribal chieftains, and also establishing a public image that was not maintained by his successors as zealously as him." This is ungrammatical.
Amended it
  • "bringing Caucasian slaves into the Iranian mainlands". What does mainlands mean here?
Safavid borders
Replaced it with 'realm'
  • "in his grandson’s time" You do not say that Abbas was his grandson. This needs clarifying.
Mentioned their relation earlier in the article
  • "This characterisation has threw a murky light on Tahmasp as a king and a person." "murky light" seems unclear and misleading.
Amended it
  • "his speech to the envoys of Suleiman the Magnificent who had come to collect the fugitive Şehzade Bayezid which was a betoken of his political skills" Maybe "his speech to the envoys of Suleiman the Magnificent, who had come to collect the fugitive Şehzade Bayezid, showed his political skill"
  • I have copy edited the last part of the article. Change anything you do not like.
  • "adjusted the Safavid ideology with the main population of the realm" I am not sure what this means - changed Safavid ideology to agree with the views of most people? Dudley Miles (talk) 12:59, 8 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, that's what the source says.
Done

@Dudley Miles All done. Amir Ghandi (talk) 15:16, 10 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Borsoka

[edit]

Name

  • Consider introducing the Shahnameh (perhaps as an early medieval Persian epic poem?)
Done
  • Consider introducing the Pishdadian dynasty (perhaps as a legendary Persian dynasty allegedly ruling thousand year before Tahmasp's was born?)
Done

Background

  • Consider mentioning that Ardabil is in northwestern Iran.
Done
  • Consider indicating when Safi-ad-Din, Zahed Gilani, Shaykh Junayd, and Shaykh Haydar lived or died. (perhaps "Safi-ad-din Ardabili (d. 1334)", or "Safi-ad-din Ardabili... became the master of the ... Zahediyeh in the late 13th century")
Done
  • ...Ismail I ... inherited the Safavid order from his grandfather... Did he inherit the order or its leadership?
The leadership
  • When Ismail's reign started in 1501 or 1502?
1501
  • Introduce the Shaybanids as Chingissids when they are first mentioned. The Shaybanids are lined twice.
Done
  • Was Najm-e Sani a Persian official and were the Uzbegs allied with the Quizilbash? Two actors are mentioned who are not obviously connected in tribes, groups mentioned in the previous sentences. Borsoka (talk) 05:59, 29 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Explained it further, any thoughts?

Drive by query

[edit]

Does this article use US or UK English? Gog the Mild (talk) 22:57, 10 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

UK English. Amir Ghandi (talk) 01:39, 11 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Source review

[edit]

Footnote numbers refer to this version.

  • Check for p/pp errors -- e.g. FN 9 should be "pp. 165–166"; FN 133 should be "p. 18." There are twenty or so that need to be fixed.
  • You're inconsistent about adding publisher locations to books -- about half have the location and half don't. They're not required, but if you use the location you should do so consistently.
    Done
    Still some missing location -- e.g. Aldous, Babaie et al, Savory et al (2012). I assume Encyclopædia Iranica has no location as it's really a web source and not a physical book? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 21:03, 15 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • If you do decide to keep locations, there's an inconsistency -- you use "London, UK" for Blow, for example, but just "Turnhout" for Berg. You could give the country in every case, or just in the cases where the location is not well-known.
  • Missing publisher for Amoretti & Matthee.
    Added the publisher
  • The Encyclopædia Iranica article titles should not be upper case, per MOS:CONFORMTITLE. Same comment for Roemer, and for the volume numbers for the Encyclopaedia of Islam.
    Done; I'm afraid the volume numbers are just part of the template for Encyclopaedia of Islam and are not removable.
    OK for now, but would there be any problem with editing that template to change the case? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 21:03, 15 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • You give chapter page numbers in some cases (e.g. Akopyan) but not others (e.g. Amoretti & Matthee, Babaie et al., Babinger & Savory and others). It should be consistent.
    Added Babaie et al. Unfortunately, could not find any page numbers for Oxford encyclopedia of the islamic world and the Encyclopedia of Islam
  • Any reason why you give the page numbers for the entire book for Newman?
    My mistake; deleted the page numbers
  • Suggest adding a translated title to Hinz (1975).
    Done
  • Typos: in Panahi: "Reaserch"; in Pārsādust: "Safavdis".
    Fixed the former; not sure could not find any Safavids in the Parsadust source
    I fixed it. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 21:03, 15 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • For Ghasem Zadeh, can you confirm the transliteration of the journal title -- you give it as Afagh Journal of Humanities, but Google is giving me Afaq instead. There appears to be no DOI, which makes me wonder how we know this journal is a reliable source?

Spotchecks -- I've asked for quite a few quotes, since I don't have access to most of the sources.

  • "Ismail established the Qizilbash Turkoman tribes as inseparable members of the Safavid administration since they were the "men of the sword" who brought him to power." Cited to Bakhash 1983 and Savory & Karamustafa 1998. I don't see support for "inseparable".
  • "Ismail named the boy Tahmasp after Ali, the first Imam, told him to do so in his dream." Cited to Wood 2018, p. 79. I don't have access; can you quote the supporting text?
    "'Name your son Tahmasb,' came the answer. When the Shah awoke, he named the noble boy Shah Tahmasp, in accordance with the order of the commander of the Faithful. After that, His Majesty packed up and headed to Esfahan." I would like to note that Commander of the Faithful is Ali's title.
  • "Safavid superiority in the battle was due to their use of artillery, which they had learned from the Ottomans." Cited to Roemer 2008, p. 236. Please quote the supporting text.
    " This time a Persian relief force was organised and the shah accompanied it to Khurasan. He intervened personally in the battle of Jam (10 Muharram 935/24 September 1528) and won a victory principally by methods which his amirs had learnt from the Ottomans: for example, by the use of artillery, which was new to the Uzbeks."
    I think this is slightly inaccurate. The source gives artillery as one example of the Ottomans' methods; the article text makes it sounds as if this was the main reason for their superiority. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 18:08, 15 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
What about "Safavid superiority in the battle was due to many different factors, one of them being their use of artillery, which they had learned from the Ottomans"?
  • "Suleiman recognised him as ruler of Iran, which panicked Tahmasp's court." Cited to Streusand 2019, p. 148. Please quote the supporting text.
    "Sam Mirza sent his submission to Sulayman during the Ottoman ruler’s march west, and Sulayman recognized him as the ruler of Iran west of Azerbaijan. This situation caused panic at Tahmasp’s court."
    OK, but the phrasing is too close to the original. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 18:08, 15 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I can change 'ruler' to 'king' or 'shah' but otherwise, I don't know how to change the sentence.
  • "In 1555, following the Peace of Amasya, eastern Georgia remained in Iranian hands and western Georgia was ruled by the Turks." Cited to Mikaberidze 2015, p. xxxi. Please quote the supporting text.
    "1555: Treaty of Amassia between Persia and the Ottoman Empire divides Georgia, with Kartli, Kakheti, and eastern Samtskhe in the Persian sphere of influence, and western Georgia and western Samtskhe under the Ottomans."
  • "Although Tahmasp rarely left Qazvin from the Peace of Amasya in 1555 to his death in 1576, he was still active during this period. A 1564 rebellion in Herat was suppressed by Masum Bek and the Khorasan governors, but the region remained troubled and was raided by the Uzbeks two years later." Cited to Newman 2008, pp. 38-39. Please quote the supporting text.
    "Although it has been suggested that soon after the 1555 Amasya treaty Tahmasp scarcely left his Qazvin palace until his death in 1576,97 in fact the shah was continually active over this period in the face of a variety of internal and external challenges. In 1564 the same Masum Bek and a number of tribal amirs put down a rebellion in Herat and the next year this column moved North to check a potential threat. In 1566, raids were launched against Khurasan from Bukhara."
    As far as I can see, the source is saying that it is not correct to say that Tahmasp rarely left the palace, but the article says the reverse. I also think "Tahmasp rarely left Qazvin ... to his death in 1576, he was still active during this period" is too close to "Tahmasp scarcely left his Qazvin palace until his death in 1576,97 in fact the shah was continually active over this period". Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 18:08, 15 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
What the source says is that Tahmasp did not set foot out of his palace in Qazvin, yet, was active during the same time.
  • "The city, associated with orthodoxy and stable governance, developed under Tahmasp's patronage; the era's foremost building is Chehel Sotoun." Cited to Kleiss 1990. The source only discusses the building and doesn't support "foremost"; the first half of the sentence is not supported.
  • "He sent copies of the Quran as gifts to several Ottoman sultans; overall, during his reign, eighteen copies of the Quran were sent to Istanbul and all were encrusted with jewels and gold." Cited to Guliyev 2022, p. 62. Please quote the supporting text.
    "The largest numbers of the Qurʾan gifts for the Ottoman ruler were presented in May 1576 by an embassy headed by Mohammad Khan Tokhmaq Ustajlu. While Shah Tahmāsp sent eighteen copies of the Qurʾan (nine large and nine small), his envoy offered only one copy. the covers of the Qurʾan brought by the 1576 Safavid embassy headed by Shahgulu Sultan Ustajlu were encrusted with gold and jewels."
    The source says only one was encrusted with gold and jewels, but the article has "all were encrusted with jewels and gold", and the phrase is also too close to the original. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 21:33, 15 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Tahmasp lost interest in the miniature arts around 1555 and, accordingly, disbanded the royal workshop and allowed his artists to practice elsewhere." Cited to Simpson 2021, p. 473. Please quote the supporting text.
    "...around 1555 when Shāh Tahmāsb lost interest in the arts of the book and released the artists working for his ketābkhāna and allowed them to practice their art elsewhere, including outside Iran."
    Can you confirm that "miniature arts" and "arts of the book" mean the same thing? And I think the phrasing is a bit too close here, though it's marginal. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 18:08, 15 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Yes, they mean the same thing.
  • "In his coins, Arabic is no longer the only language used, in his fals (folus-i shahi) coins, the phrase "May be eternally [condemned] to the damnation of God / He, who alters [the rate of] the royal folus" is minted in Persian. Old copper coins were also kept in circulation through their validation by the countermarks folus-i shahi, 'adl-e shahi, etc. to indicate their new royal and national status." Cited to Akopyan 2021, p. 295. Please quote the supporting text.
    "Arabic was no longer the only language used in coin legends. Folus began to carry a uniform distich: peyvast-e beh la‘nat-e Elāhi / taghayyor deh folus-e shāhi (May be eternally [condemned] to the damnation of God / He, who alters [the rate of] the royal folus; Figure 14.6). This text contained a direct indication of the royal status of these coins (folus-e shāhi) and a prohibition to change their course under penalty of a curse – la‘nat. Old copper coins were kept in circulation through their validation by the countermarks folus-e shāhi, ‘adl-e shāhi, etc., which indicated their new royal and national status."
    Too closely paraphrased. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 18:08, 15 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Edited it, any thoughts?
  • "Tahmasp had seven known consorts...A sister of Waraza Shalikashvili". Cited to Mitchell 2011, p. 67. Please quote the supporting text.
    "Kai Khusraw II's dowager, Dedis Imedi, ruled Meskhia with her lover, Waraza Shalikashvili, brother to the wife of Tahmasp."
  • "It was during Tahmasp's reign that the Safavid right to rule was established and gradually accepted among the Shia people, who were endeared to the idea of a descendent of Ahl al-Bayt (Family of the prophet of Islam, Muhammad) ruling over them. Thus the Safavid dynasty gained an ideological underpinning much stronger than the initial premise of the right of conquest." Cited to Khafipour 2021, p. 121. Please quote the supporting text.
    "We can clearly recognize that it was during the reign of Tahmāsb and largely due to such public religiopolitical strategies that the validity of the Safavid right to rule was gradually established among the people, a claim that was grounded in popular Shi‘i notions of legitimate authority (i.e., descent from the ahl al-beyt) and shielded by a historical awareness whose sentiment was broadcasted in the public sphere."
    Too close paraphrasing: "the Safavid right to rule was established and gradually accepted among the Shia people"/"the validity of the Safavid right to rule was gradually established among the people". I also don't see a reference to "the initial premise of the right of conquest".
Sorry, forgot about that phrase: "Effectively persuading a population that the sovereign in power is uniquely positioned to defend and implement the law (divinely inspired, in this case) has the potential to provide the ideological underpinning that an order needs to safeguard its legitimacy, consolidate its power, and survive beyond its initial paroxysm of conquest."

-- Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 14:36, 15 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Some replies and strikes above. Enough of these are problematic that I am going to pick out some more to spotcheck. Do you want to take a look through the citations yourself and check for problems before I ask for more quotes? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 18:08, 15 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
No, please go on. Amir Ghandi (talk) 18:37, 15 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

More spotchecks:

  • "The first sheikh of the order and eponym of the dynasty, Safi-ad-din Ardabili (d. 1334), married the daughter of Zahed Gilani (d. 1301) and became the master of his father-in-law's order, the Zahediyeh." Cited to Babinger & Savory 1995. Please quote the supporting text.
  • "This belief weakened after Chaldiran, and Ismail lost his theological-religious relationship with the disappointed Qizilbash tribes who had previously seen him as invincible." Cited to Roemer 2008, p. 225. Please quote the supporting text.
  • "During his years in Herat, Tahmasp developed a love for writing and painting. He became an accomplished painter and dedicated a work to his brother, Bahram Mirza. The painting was a humorous composition of a gathering of Safavid courtiers, featuring music, singing, and wine-drinking." Cited to Simpson 2021, p. 471. Please quote the supporting text.
  • "Hossein Khan constantly undermined the shah's power and had angered Tahmasp many times. His confidence in his power, combined with the rumours that Hossein Khan intended to depose Tahmasp and place his brother, Sam Mirza, on the throne, finally led Tahmasp to rid himself of the powerful Shamlu amir." Cited to Savory 2007, p. 56. Please quote the supporting text.
  • "Through this treaty, Iran had time to increase its forces and resources as its western provinces had the opportunity to recuperate from the war." Cited to Köhbach 1985. The supporting text is "Iran was able to consolidate its forces and resources, while its western provinces were able to recover from war." This is too closely paraphrased.
  • "however, he refused to give him political assistance unless he converted to Shia Islam. Humayun reluctantly agreed, but reverted to Sunni Islam when he returned to India; however he did not force the Iranian Shias, who came with him to India, to convert" is cited to Savory 2007, p. 66. Please quote the supporting text.
  • "The Habsburgs were eager to ally with the Safavids against the Ottomans. In 1529, Ferdinand I (r. 1558–1564) sent an envoy to Iran with the objective of a two-front attack on the Ottoman Empire the following year. The mission was unsuccessful, however, since the envoy took over a year to return." Cited to Slaby 2005. It seems from the source that it was Karl V who sent the envoy, and the second sentence doesn't really follow the source which says it was not just the delay, it was the fact that by that time the situation "had changed completely".
  • "Tahmasp wanted the poets of his court to write about Ali, rather than him." Cited to Canby 2000, p. 72. Please quote the supporting text.
  • "His preeminent and acclaimed contribution to the Safavid arts was his patronage of Persian miniature manuscripts that took place during the first half of his reign." Cited to Canby 2000, p. 49. Please quote the supporting text.
  • "During the later years of his life, however, he came to despise poets and poetry; as his devotion to the Quran increased, he no longer counted poets as pious men, for many of them were addicted to wine, an irreligious behaviour. Tahmasp refused to allow poets in his court and ceased to regard them with favour." Cited to Sharma 2017, p. 21. Please quote the supporting text.

Fail. I'm going to stop here and fail the spotcheck. Of the twelve spotchecks I've requested for which I either had access to the source or the source has been quoted, three were fine, one was marginal (struck above) and the other eight all have problems -- inaccuracies in the way the text of the article reflects the source, or too close paraphrasing, or both. The only two for which I had access in the second pass both had issues. Even if the remaining spotchecks all came up clean I think further checks would be necessary. I can see that a good faith attempt has been made at paraphrasing, but I think more is needed. It may not be a question of rephrasing the individual sentences at issue -- it might be better to restructure the paragraphs to re-narrate the events in our own words, so that it's just the information that comes over from the source, not the sentence structure. Sorry -- I hate to do this at the end of an otherwise successful FAC but there are just too many issues. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 21:33, 15 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Coordinator note (2)

[edit]

Tks Mike for that spotcheck. Noting also an earlier reviewer's concern following some source checks, we'll need to close this and allow improvements -- which as Mike suggests might need to be extensive to avoid close paraphrasing -- to take place away from the pressures of the FAC process and then hopefully return for another try later. A formal or informal peer review between the improvements and a new FAC nom might also be helpful. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 23:02, 15 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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