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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted 16:28, 18 November 2007.

Society of the Song Dynasty

[edit]

This Chinese history article has achieved GA status already, and is one of 7 articles in a wikipedia featured topic for the main theme of the Song Dynasty. It's written quality is arguably on par with the other two featured articles in that wiki topic. Therefore I nominate this article for FA status.--Pericles of AthensTalk 04:00, 5 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks!--Pericles of AthensTalk 18:01, 7 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • comment In the section named 'Court cases', there is a multi-paragraph quotation. Each paragraph has a citation to the same reference. Should there just be one citation for the entire quote? Hmains 01:29, 7 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Hmm. Since they are separated as paragraphs, I think it is safe to put the citation after each one, instead of just after the very last quoted paragraph. In the meantime, I will look into wikipedia's guidelines for quotations and see what I can find.--Pericles of AthensTalk
  • Comment It looks great. A couple coverage concerns I have are the lack of information on the status of minorities, and the minimal information on entertainment. You don't need to duplicate the things that should be in the culture article, but some discussion of what entertainment was valued, what was accepted in high and low class, etc would be an important aspect of society. The only place I saw even a short mention was in the Urban life section. - Taxman Talk 20:26, 10 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Response: ??? There's additional information about entertainment in the next sub-section on social class; see the second and third paragraphs. I would add additional information on entertainment, but my Chinese history sources do not go overboard on the subject. Since entertainment is mentioned in two different sections of this Society article, I do think it is sufficient in coverage. With minorities in the Song Dynasty, yes there were plenty of different ethnic groups living in the major cities, especially the two capitals and the southern seaports such as Guangzhou and Quanzhou. This merits some discussion; I think I will add a paragraph at the end of the social class section about minorities. As to their status (legal or unofficial), I have never read any source that covered this thoroughly; I will check Jacques Gernet's book. Although he has a taste for nuance, he does not go into incredible detail on the subject, if I recall.--Pericles of AthensTalk 01:03, 11 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, yes I didn't see that. It almost covers it, but only in terms of occupations and what the poor did to entertain the wealthy. It would be better to cover it in general, but if it's not in the sources, then it's not. Otherwise looking again at the article, the structure seems a bit odd. There's a large section on urban life, what about rural? Obviously there's some information, but not at the same level of detail and presentation. The family and gender section is entirely about women. There's very little there about the family structure and respect except as it relates to women. I see the new section on minorities it looks pretty good. Is there any information on the relative proportions? You may be hard pressed to find that, but it would be good to compare it a little. Is it 1% minorities or 40% for ex. Does enough information exist to say their participation in society was minor and/or rare? Otherwise what's there does seem to imply it's small, so if there's no more info that's as good as it gets. - Taxman Talk 02:30, 11 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I just added an entire new sub-section on China's foreign community. However, not much is said of their status except for a couple Muslim guys who became a Quanzhou Shipping Commissioner and a Chief Court Astronomer, respectively.--Pericles of AthensTalk 02:24, 11 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Response It's not that the information doesn't exist, it's just that I don't own every book in the world. The only book I own that covers entertainment in detail would be Jacques Gernet's book, which I've already used pretty heavily for this article (almost half the citations). There is not a gigantic wealth of information known about rural life, spare farming techniques, religious customs, and some family traditions and pasttimes, etc. Gernet points this out actually; naturally much more will be known about the towns and cities, where most of the literate people and men of letters congregate and live. As for minority proportions, that's asking a bit much. I'm sure there's an estimation somewhere (afterall, the census was quite an accurate system back then for the medieval period, and overall Song population was 100 million). However, I don't think they were tedious enough back then to tally up every foreigner or person of ethnic difference and then figure out percentages related to the population as a whole. As for the family and gender section, actually quite a bit is mentioned about family matters (legal and other), but you're right, the information does center around women's involvement in the family. I suppose I could mention something about Confucian order and father-to-son relations. That will mean more searching of books for citations though.--Pericles of AthensTalk 04:53, 11 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment! I'm happy to announce that I've recently gone above and beyond your concerns with new large scale edits and improvements to the article. I expanded information on both the family and entertainment. Have a look!--Pericles of AthensTalk 06:01, 12 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • 'Comments' I am so happy that someone is taking on these important articles! What an undertaking! I am slowly reading through the article. I am about half-way through. I thought I would post my first set of comments and the second set later.
  • The article is overlinked. See WP:MOS-L for advice on linking.
  • Why are some scattered names in Chinese and others not? All names should either be translated or all not.

Small clarifications:

  • Something seems off about the first sentence - perhaps a more parallel structure wold help it?
  • The first time any dynasty is mentioned, it would be helpful to have its approximate dates.
  • These covered bazaars known as 'pleasure grounds' were places where strict social morals and formalities could be largely ignored. - not clear what "these" refers to in the context of the article
  • Gaining a scholarly degree by passing prefectural, provincial, or palace exams in the Song period was far more a prerequisite in being selected for higher posts than in the earlier Tang period. - a more important prerequisite?
  • Much more so than scholar officials in the earlier Tang Dynasty, access to ranks, honors, and career appointments of Song scholar-officials were enhanced by their own merit and on far more objective criteria than in standards of the past. - a bit convoluted
  • How about something like this: "Song scholar-officials were granted ranks, honors, and career appointments on the basis of merit, the standards of which were codified and more objective than those in the Tang Dynasty." Awadewit | talk 20:41, 15 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Fan set out to modify and erase corruption from the recruitment system, to provide higher salaries for minor officials in order to persuade them not to become corrupt and take bribes, and the establishment of sponsorship programs that would ensure officials were drafted on their merits, administrative skills, and character more than etiquette and cultured appearance. - needs parallel structure
  • During the Song Dynasty, the whole of Chinese society was theoretically modelled upon this familial social order of superiors and inferiors, and how one regulated his or her behavior appropriately when dealing with an inferior or superior member of one's family or society. - It is not clear what the second half of the sentence adds.
  • It is often perceived that women during the earlier Tang Dynasty were brazen, assertive, active, and relatively more socially liberated. - "It is often claimed" perhaps?; "more socially liberated" than when? Comparatives need a comparison.
  • Evidence of foot binding as a growing trend in the Southern Song period would certainly reinforce this notion. - Can a period have a "South"?
  • The economic prosperity of the Song period prompted many families to provide their daughters with larger dowries in order to attract the most potential and wealthy son-in-laws. - "the most potential" is just hanging here - awkward
  • There were also many professional courtesans in the cities (or brought back home as concubines) to keep men busy in the pursuits of entertainment, relations, and romantic affairs. - parenthetical is awkwardly phrased
  • Earlier native Chinese religious beliefs in Daoism and beliefs in foreign-originated Buddhism continued into the Song period. - awkward
  • Although many followed the teachings of Buddha, there were also many critics of the ideology. - An ideology, philosophy, or religion?
  • Under "Court cases", there are three large block quotations. Since they are all from the same page, why don't you put ellipses between them instead of breaking them up with separate footnotes to indicate that they are from separate sections of the page?
  • The first block quotation begins "A proclomation" - is that a misprint in the source? If so, it should have [sic] after it.

This is a long article, necessarily so by its topic, but I think that some of the length can be cut by reducing the wordiness of the sentences. Here are two examples of what I mean:

  • Much like the earlier Tang capital, though, the Song capitals of Kaifeng and Hangzhou still featured wide, open avenues to create fire breaks that would ensure fires would remain isolated to one district should they occur.
  • Rewrite: "Much like the earlier Tang capital, the Song capitals of Kaifeng and Hangzhou featured wide, open avenues to create fire breaks."
 Done I replaced the sentence in question with your own rendition.--Pericles of AthensTalk 19:07, 16 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Although urban life was orderly and organized, in order to maintain a properly-functioning empire, the Song court had to make sure the countryside was run efficiently and was just as orderly.
  • Rewrite: "In order to ensure an orderly urban life and a properly-functioning empire, the Song court made certain that the countryside was run efficiently."
 Done I replaced the sentence in question with your own rendition.--Pericles of AthensTalk 19:07, 16 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

MOS, etc.:

  • The MOS discourages the use of "call-out quotes" in articles (see WP:MOSQUOTE).
  • The "References" need to give the original publication date for Castiglione's book, otherwise it looks modern.
  • The Cambridge Illustrated History of China - give only the ISBN for the edition you used (page numbers will be different).
  • Journal titles should be italicized in the "References".

There are many large paragraphs in this article. While I personally don't have a problem with this, wikipedia-style tends towards the shorter paragraph. I think that this is because readers are scared of big blocks of text. Are you planning on doing a "Government in the Song Dynasty" page? I would have thought "Justice system" and maybe even the "Armed forces" sections would have gone there.

Excellent job - I am learning so much. That is the best kind of article to review. Awadewit | talk 22:51, 14 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  • Response Wow! I will certainly take everything you've suggested to heart. I'm glad that more people are taking an interest in the article. Unfortunately, I am very busy at the moment, and will be for the rest of the week. Hopefully I will be able to properly address all of your concerns within the week, if my now busy school schedule permits it.--Pericles of AthensTalk 23:01, 14 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I have somehow found the time (even though I just took a midterm exam this morning) to address all of your concerns about rewording and clarification. I'm quite fast when it comes to typing I suppose. Lol. As for your confusion about the "Southern Song" period in the women's section (when talking about the rise of the tradition of footbinding), I don't know if you got around to reading the "Armed forces" section yet, but it explains why the Song period is divided between Northern Song and Southern Song (so does the intro of the main Song Dynasty article). It is because northern China was conquered by the Jurchens, and the court fled south from Kaifeng to Hangzhou, making the latter the new capital, a move which demarcated a new era of the dynasty, the "Southern" period.
I am not planning on making an entire new article on Song government, since the military and justice system sections have much to reveal about Song society, the focus of this article. Plus, the Song Dynasty is already an accepted featured topic, and people who nominated it as such pointed out that there were no obvious gaps of missing articles that could make Song Dynasty a featured topic.
I could attempt to break up some large paragraphs in the article for sake of the reader's patience with large blocks of text, but seriously, many of them are reasonably lengthy and do not have sentences that stray from the topic of the paragraph.
As for a map, the only place I think that would be appropriate would be the military section, where geography is somewhat important in the description of the northern-southern split of China. But really, if someone wanted to see a map of the Song Empire, they could easily refer to the lead picture in the main article, as well as another map in the first section on history that shows the bounds of the Southern Song and Jin Dynasty to the north after 1127.
If you have strong objections to these and truly think the article could do better with a map and such, please state them here. Otherwise, I have addressed all your technical concerns (like clarifying that the Ebrey book used was the paperback edition), and I think the article is fast approaching FA class.--Pericles of AthensTalk 17:22, 15 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Funny. I am grading midterm papers. :)
  • I had not reached the "Armed Forces" section when I asked about the "Southern Song" - I wonder if there is some way to forestall questions like that, in case someone doesn't read Song Dynasty first?
  • I would seriously think about a government page of some sort. Just because no editors mentioned it doesn't mean it wouldn't be a good addition. See Ancient Rome and Ancient Egypt, for example.
  • I agree that your paragraphs are on topic - it is more of a wiki-style issue. If you feel uncomfortable changing them, do not.
  • I would strongly encourage you to include a map. I wanted one the minute I started reading the article. Knowing very little about China myself, I wanted to know where all of the cities were exactly and where in relation to each other that were mentioned in "Urban life". Try to put yourself in the position of the lay reader. Someone could go to the main article, but why force them? Offer knowledge on a silver platter. Obviously I won't oppose based on the lack of a map (how absurd!), but I do think that you should consider it.
  • The article is looking better. Awadewit | talk 18:07, 15 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ah, you're a professor! That's cool. I aim to become a professor one of these days.
  • I added the information about the distinction between Northern Song and Southern Song in the second paragraph of Urban Life, where it talks about the two capitals, Kaifeng and Hangzhou. I thought that was a fitting place to introduce it. I also added two maps to the Armed forces section, one for the Northern Song boundaries, and one right below that map for the Southern Song boundaries.
  • I addressed your second round of concerns about the wording of some awkward sentences. I hope this second attempt of mine to reword some of those awkward sentences is better than the first!
  • I am still diametrically opposed (lol) to the notion that a separate Government of the Song Dynasty article should be created, although that title does have a nice ring to it. :) I think that the sections on partisan politics, the justice system, and the armed forces are pivotal to understanding Song society. The Partisan politics section follows the sections discussing the scholar official class, education, and recruitment of officials into government. The factionalized government itself is a subject of the workings of society, including the educational and political reform of the era. The two subjects are inseparable, and deleting it from this article will only damage its quality and the reader's ability the understand the topic fully. The justice system is an extension of this as well, as the scholar officials are the judges themselves! It is but one of their duties. It shows the moral outlook of that period on how to govern a just society, along with legal issues amongst different groups of people, how courts were maintained, and how law and order was related to Song society. The military section provides information on soldiers and their position in society, and is an extension of the information provided in the social class section, in order to provide the reader with a fuller sense of that social group (along with necessary info on events). Song society was affected by martial events and its own military. It was also a section that had to be added in order for the article to pass GA review, and I agreed with the reviewer at the time (look to the discussion page).--Pericles of AthensTalk 19:57, 15 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Cool. I replaced that one sentence about ranks, honors, and appointments with the cleaner, adjusted sentence that you suggested above.--Pericles of AthensTalk 22:56, 15 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I've noticed that you haven't crossed out your statement that the article is over-linked, so I have taken the liberty of combing through the article a second time and deleting about 30 or 40 links that could be considered low quality and somewhat irrelevant to the main topic. I hope the latest round of link deletions will be sufficient.--Pericles of AthensTalk 06:38, 16 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I deleted some more myself. Looks better. Awadewit | talk 07:00, 16 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Great! It does look better. I have a question though. You have not yet struck out the statement about the scattered Chinese character names in the article, even though I deleted those (the only ones I found were in the education section, which were Chinese translations for the various academies listed). Is there a reason why this statement is not yet struck out? Also, you have not yet struck out the statement on Fan Zhongyan and the statement about him needing more parallel structure. I thought that I had remedied that situation when I split the sentence into two...is there still a problem?--Pericles of AthensTalk 18:03, 16 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
There is still one translation - for the New Policies Group. Perhaps this is a necessary translation? (By the way, it helps reviewers enormously if you write below each comment "done" or even paste in a copy of your reworded sentence so that they know you have addressed an issue. That way they don't have to go hunting through the article to check or click through all of the recent changes.) Awadewit | talk 18:27, 16 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  •  Done I just got rid of the translation, and added a hidden link to the History of the Song Dynasty article. The reason I do not use the done marker at the beginning of FA review bullets is because a certain FA reviewer a while back told me to stop using them, as they were very "annoying" to that wikipedia member. I took that advice to heart, but for you I make this one exception. Lol.--Pericles of AthensTalk 19:03, 16 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oh, I was just saying you should somehow indicate that you had addressed the concern. Yes, apparently many people don't like the checks (I don't care either way - why get upset over that?). Awadewit | talk 19:08, 16 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Beats me, I just stopped using them after the initial complaint, thinking that person's opinion was a general consensus of FA reviewers. That episode happened during the first time I nominated an article for Featured Article status. I was young then, full of venturing confidence, fiddling with new wikipedia command codes in a vast and uncharted featured article nominating process (lol!), but the scars of that merciless, cold-hearted rebuke and beratement for daring to use the check mark have inflicted pain and doubtfulness upon my psyche, esteem, and groove on wikipedia ever since! [/dramatic sarcasm]. Lol. Oh, by the way, are you going to support this article now? Have I jumped through enough fiery hoops in order to satisfy your high standards for impeccable use of grammar, vocabulary, and sentence structure? Please say yes!--Pericles of AthensTalk 23:37, 16 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
FAC can indeed be merciless. I think I've been through about twelve now or something. I'm sorry I have made this seem like hoops - I never wanted to do that! Actually, the most important thing - reducing wordiness - hasn't been taken care of. I gave two examples of sentences to change, which you did, but those were only examples. The idea was for you to see those and say "ah ha! now, I totally understand the problem!" Why don't I copy edit one section of the article to show you what I mean. You can spend some time studying the edits and hopefully do the rest yourself. One of the best ways to improve your writing is to have someone go over it meticulously with you (as I tell my students daily). Awadewit | talk 23:49, 16 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I did a quick copy edit of "Urban life" so you can get a feel of what I am talking about. Awadewit | talk 01:03, 17 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I just completed some major edits to the Urban Life section as well, but I will need more time to comb through the rest of the article. As for today, I have yet another midterm! It comes at 4:30 pm. So I will naturally be very busy today. And guess what? I have a paper due tomorrow! Busy bee.--Pericles of AthensTalk 13:33, 17 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
No problem. Best to take the time to do it well. Awadewit | talk 20:40, 17 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Yes & support
  • Comprehensive article.
  • I don't feel there is enough internal links to wiki articles though. Learnedo 08:03, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
You're the editor. You'd make better decisions than me, hopefully. Learnedo 06:53, 27 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Pericles is the primary editor of this article. Usually when reviewers make comments, they try to be as specific as possible. It is difficult for us to know what you think should be linked unless you offer us some examples. Obviously, between Pericles and myself, we have linked what we think is appropriate. Thanks. Awadewit | talk 07:33, 27 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Hmm...I'm guessing the "Yes" means "support", yes?--Pericles of AthensTalk 00:04, 20 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Update: Recent edits to the article's section titles got me thinking, and I realized that some of the titles did not adequately reflect the content that was described in the sections, so I have made a few drastic changes and rearrangements with new sub-sections and new title changes. I hope everyone favors these recent changes.--Pericles of AthensTalk 21:52, 19 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I have made even more changes to the article with additional information about the gentry, commerce, etc., have a look see!--Pericles of AthensTalk 19:37, 23 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
How is the copy editing coming? Awadewit | talk 21:51, 23 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Pericles, do you know a good copy editor? I think what this article needs at this point is someone unfamiliar with its prose to tighten everything up. It is still quite wordy. I would volunteer myself except I am extremely busy at the moment - it would probably take me 2-3 weeks to finish a copy edit. What do you think of posting it at the League of Copyeditors? You might also ask Scartol. He is an excellent copyeditor and might be willing to help out. Awadewit | talk 09:46, 24 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
It usually takes a long time for the League to get anything done, I've seen that first-hand with other articles I've raised to Featured Article Status in the past. I will instead leave a message on Scartol's talk page. Thank you for suggesting Scartol.--Pericles of AthensTalk 16:05, 24 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I went ahead and contacted the league anyway; hopefully they will help out soon.--Pericles of AthensTalk 22:17, 26 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Scartol is now helping to tidy up the article, and it reads much better now.--Pericles of AthensTalk 23:03, 31 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Support: The article does indeed read better now. I support. Awadewit | talk 07:55, 7 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Awesome! I'm glad you like the article, and the new painting I just added to the women's section.--Pericles of AthensTalk 13:00, 7 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose until fixed. SUPPORT: nice. This is very promising, but does need a copy-edit throughout. See my light copy-edit of the lead, with quite a few inline queries. In AmEng, surely you don't hyphenate "land-holder"? And it was conjoined at one point. Have I got it wrong? "[Women] nonetheless enjoyed a wide range of social and legal rights that benefited them in an otherwise patriarchal society"—let's be careful claiming that; I hope there are good references later on in the article. The lead contains many unreferenced statements that should be cross-checked for verifiability where they are covered below. Can we drop the "UPon"? It's the 21st century. Issues of logical connection in a few places. Rather long first caption, and check MOS about final period. "108,840 kg (120 tons)"—is that really the conversion? I though ton and tonne were almost the same. Do we need a link for "telegraph" and other dictionary words? Readers should just look them up if they don't know what they mean; or learn English. There are some abstruse piped links that look as though they lead somewhere useful, but will readers ever click on them? ("restaurants", for example). Perhaps think of putting the link into a more likely item? And "actors" goes to "Chinese opera"; I think this is a distortion. Links need an audit. Read MOS on the spacing of ellipses, and logical punctuation. Tony (talk) 03:13, 3 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Response
"In AmEng, surely you don't hyphenate 'land-holder'? And it was conjoined at one point. Have I got it wrong?" - Tony
Nope, my mistake. There was one other place in the article with the hyphen between "land" and "holder", which I have now fixed.
"let's be careful claiming that; I hope there are good references later on in the article." - Tony
There is not one, in fact, since I put that statement in the introduction to intentionally mislead you...because I am evil. Lol. No, seriously, read the sub-section "Women: Legality and Lifestyles," it is carefully and meticulously cited.
"The lead contains many unreferenced statements that should be cross-checked for verifiability where they are covered below." - Tony
A lead should contain no inline citations unless that introductory information does not appear somewhere in the article below, or is there but without citations (to be honest, it should always have citations in the body of the article). An introduction is merely a brief summary of everything found in the article, and everything in the article is well-referenced.
"Can we drop the "UPon"? It's the 21st century." - Tony
Lol. If you can't stand it, by all means, change it, be my guest.
"Do we need a link for 'telegraph' and other dictionary words? Readers should just look them up if they don't know what they mean; or learn English." - Tony
Good point. I have changed that. I swept through the article earlier and delinked many low quality wikilinks...I must have missed that or not thought much of it until you mentioned it.
"There are some abstruse piped links that look as though they lead somewhere useful, but will readers ever click on them? ('restaurants', for example). Perhaps think of putting the link into a more likely item?" - Tony
That is a good point; the "restaurants" link brings you here to a high quality link specifically about Song Dynasty cuisine and restaurants. I think I can find another spot to link that, or link a phrase about restaurants to make it more suggestive of a special link.

Good suggestions, yet I would save some of the criticism until you've read the entire article, such as doubting the validity of statements in the introduction.--Pericles of AthensTalk 02:51, 4 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

"'108,840 kg (120 tons)' —is that really the conversion? I though ton and tonne were almost the same."
Gernet says 120 tons, and since it is not spelled as tonnes (as in the metric tonne), I used the English or imperial ton in figuring the amount of kg. What, is there a problem with that?--Pericles of AthensTalk 18:58, 4 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
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