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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ian Rose 10:01, 25 August 2013 (UTC) [1].[reply]

Ringo Starr

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Ringo Starr (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

Toolbox
Nominator(s): GabeMc (talk|contribs) 23:44, 19 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I am nominating this for featured article because I believe it to be well-written, well-researched and comprehensive. GabeMc (talk|contribs) 23:44, 19 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Review by Cassianto

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Glad to see this making the set. This will take a few visits and I will do the lede last.

Lead section

I think the lede is OK but not great. In terms of length, yes we have the four paragraphs, however I think there is too much detail in terms of his medical conditions. I think this will need to be cut to just saying "Starr was twice afflicted by life-threatening illnesses during his childhood, and as a result of prolonged hospitalisations, fell behind scholastically." I don't feel naming the conditions is particularly helpful unless it effected him and his career later in life. I also worry that we don't talk too much of his later solo career. There doesn't appear to be any later albums mentioned, or quotes from critics. I think this will need a reworking. I have made a few edits, but didn't want to do anything too heavy.

Thanks for the excellent review User:Cassianto! I've now trimmed out the excess detail regarding Starr's childhood health problems, but I'm not too certain about expanding on his solo career beyond this summary: "After their break-up in 1970, he released several successful singles and albums and recorded with each of the former Beatles." He had three significant hits (written or co-written with others) and after 1974 there isn't too much for any strong notability music wise; perhaps I'm missing something here, so please feel free to talk some sense into me if I'm wrong! GabeMc (talk|contribs) 01:08, 23 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Thats ok Gabe, I have enjoyed the review. I think the lede is now fine. I think mentioning the fact he did have a solo career is the more important thing here...I must admit Ringo's solo hits don't exactly spring to mind! What do you think about the idea of adding a quote from a Beatles critic about Starr's role within the group? -- CassiantoTalk 10:45, 23 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
What do you think of this? The quote isn't from a music critic per se, but it is from a respected drummer and I think it speaks to the point well. GabeMc (talk|contribs) 18:22, 23 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Yes that's better. I like that, nice addition. -- CassiantoTalk 23:02, 23 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Early life
1940–1956
First bands
1957–1961
With the Beatles
1962–1970
After the Beatles
1970s
  • "On 10 April 1970, McCartney publicly announced that he had quit the Beatles. Starr released two albums before the end of that year: Sentimental Journey, comprising his renditions of many pre-rock standards which included musical arrangements by Quincy Jones, Maurice Gibb, George Martin and McCartney, and the country-inspired Beaucoups of Blues, which featured renowned Nashville session musician Pete Drake."
  • "Goodnight Vienna followed in 1974 and was also successful, earning Starr another top-ten hit with his cover of the Platters."
  • "Starr played drums on Lennon's John Lennon/Plastic Ono Band (1970) and Yoko Ono's Yoko Ono/Plastic Ono Band (1970), and on Harrison's albums All Things Must Pass (1970) and Living in the Material World (1973)." -- Do we need the first conjunction?
  • I think we need to elaborate a little when saying "a US number 4". Three things: Any further "a US number 4's et al can be named as such, but an introduction such as "Reached number four in the American charts" would be preferable upon first mention; 4 →needs to be four and What were the charts called at this time?
    • Fixed. While the sources are clear that the primary US chart is Billboard, due to the fact that multiple charts existed in the UK at the time, the RSs tend to be a bit vague about exactly which chart they are referring to. I use a Guinness source for UK hits, but they do not delineate whether an album or song peaked on the BBC, Disk, Melody Maker, NME, Record Mirror or Record Retailer charts. GabeMc (talk|contribs) 21:23, 21 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Number 2, Number 1 and Number 4 need to be two, one and four.
  • "In 1973 he released Ringo" -- New para, new noun.
  • US number 3 →three
  • number 5 →five
  • "...consecutive hittop-ten, and "Oh My My", a US number 5. Goodnight Vienna followed in 1974 and was also successful, earning Starr another top-ten hit... ."
1980s
1990s
2000s
2010
Influences
Drumming
Singing
Composition
Personal life
Awards and recognition
Films

I enjoyed that. I will give another read through to check again and add any further comments into the relevant sections on this review. --CassiantoTalk 22:09, 22 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support — Sorry for the delay. This appears to be a well referenced, well written and comprehensive. All of my concerns have been satisfactorily answered, and I fully endorse this articles elevation to FA status. -- CassiantoTalk 09:12, 2 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Drive-by comments by Lemonade51

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Comments from SchroCat

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I'll also pop by and review shortly. A few bits of duplicate linking jump out at me for a very quick look:

Fixed all. GoingBatty (talk) 23:42, 23 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Correction: GabeMc and I worked on this at the same time, and his edit beat mine. GoingBatty (talk) 23:45, 23 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the help User:GoingBatty. I didn't know that AWB fixes overlinking! I always wondered why we had to do that manually and by eye, which I'm not great at. GabeMc (talk|contribs) 23:57, 23 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
After my edit conflict with you, I decided to run the article through AWB to see if it would catch anything else. The only thing it found were the duplicate links that SchroCat mentioned. AWB will identify duplicate links, but the user has to select which links should be removed. GoingBatty (talk) 00:43, 24 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I'm also wondering why these particular albums are shown in the Discography section? Are these his own solo works? Just a word or two of explanation to highlight why this selection may help, (before a drive-by editor starts adding a few Beatles albums to the list!). More to follow. - SchroCat (talk) 08:34, 23 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Fixed. GoingBatty (talk) 23:42, 23 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Early life

All for now: more to follow - SchroCat (talk) 21:26, 24 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

First bands

With the Beatles

After the Beatles

1990s

Will complete the final batch in a day or so. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 20:20, 27 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks much SchroCat! GabeMc (talk|contribs) 22:31, 27 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Final batch 2000s

  • This is a tricky one, as it’s a trap I fall into as well and can never see a clean way round it, but the paras start as:
"In 2002, ..."
Done. GabeMc (talk|contribs) 18:24, 30 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
"In 2003 and 2004, ..."
Done. GabeMc (talk|contribs) 18:24, 30 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
"In 2005, ..."
Done. GabeMc (talk|contribs) 18:24, 30 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
"In January 2008, ..."
Done. GabeMc (talk|contribs) 18:24, 30 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
"On 4 April 2009, ..."
Done. GabeMc (talk|contribs) 18:24, 30 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
It makes the whole section feel a bit listy and I'd suggest breaking it up a bit.

That's it. The rest reads fine for now, but I'll give the whole thing another spin through shortly. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 08:15, 30 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Support My comments all dealt with. Nice work. - SchroCat (talk) 05:14, 2 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Image check

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Image check - all OK (Flickr, own work, PD-USGov, OTRS). Sources and authors provided.

Review by Jimknut

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Support — Looks good. My only other suggestion would be to consider adding one or more audio samples of Ringo's singing and drum playing. Although not really needed it might make the article a little more polished. Jimknut (talk) 16:21, 2 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Review by Evanh2008

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Starting a review here. I should have more later today, and I hope to finish up by Friday.

Lead:

Everything else looks good.

Early life:

Very few problems here. Nice work, Gabe! Evanh2008 (talk|contribs) 20:38, 7 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Evan! Nice to see you around and thanks for taking the time and making the effort to provide a review! Cheers! GabeMc (talk|contribs) 00:30, 8 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
No problem, Gabe! The article is in great condition; much better than the last time I read through it. I see a support looming on the horizon. Evanh2008 (talk|contribs) 01:43, 9 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

First bands:

With the Beatles:

  • "receiving an equal amount of fanmail as the others" ---> "receiving an amount of fanmail equal to that of the others". Does that flow better? "Equal... as" just seems like an awkward construction to me.
  • "make him ill', soon after a provoked Best" - Is this a comma splice, or was Ringo's comment in fact delivered after the lawsuit was filed?
  • "worked on his guitar playing, he commented" - This one's definitely a comma splice.
  • "had been covered in flowers" - Another almost non-issue, but I remember originally being under the impression that this was entirely George [Harrison]'s doing. I can't remember if some sources might disagree? If no one contests the idea that George was responsible for the flowers, maybe add that bit of info, but otherwise don't worry.

After the Beatles:

Personal life:

Awards and recognition:

Films:

More to come shortly... Evanh2008 (talk|contribs) 01:43, 9 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

And that's all! Evanh2008 (talk|contribs) 01:08, 11 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
All resolved! Thanks Evan! GabeMc (talk|contribs) 20:52, 11 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Drive-by comments by Wasted Time R

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I looked at this article when reviewing several first paragraphs of leads, and thought the lead had some issues, and when I went to the Talk page, I saw this was in FAC, so I'm not doing a review ... but thought I would discuss the lead here.

  • MOS:BEGIN says "The first paragraph should define the topic ... but without being overly specific." But the first paragraph here dives into excessive detail that does not belong in the lead at all. The only two Beatles songs that need inclusion in the lead as ones he sang on are "Yellow Submarine" (the only big hit single he sang on) and "With a Little Help From My Friends" (easily the most famous of the rest, and the one that he builds his concerts up to). What the lead should also say is that he generally got one song to sing per album.
  • None of Ringo's songwriting efforts need to be mentioned in the lead. The five songs being listed in the first paragraph range from somewhat known album tracks to near-obscurities ("Dig It"!?). In the scheme of things, Ringo's Beatles-era songwriting should be mentioned in the article body, but it never had enough significance to be in the lead.
  • The biggest contributions that Ringo made to the Beatles after his drumming were in terms of his personality. The fact that all four Beatles had visibly different personalities was a big key to their success, and Ringo's element was vital. Ringo's extended "walking along the canal" sequence in A Hard Day's Night alone (which unfortunately isn't even mentioned directly in the article text, although it is alluded to) was a bigger contribution to the Beatles than any song he ever wrote.
  • Why is there a long quote about Ringo's drumming from a relatively unknown musician in the lead? While the first part of it is apt, I'm not sure about the last - while he may be able to identify Beatles songs solely from the drum part, I doubt most listeners could except in a few cases.
  • Also, although it doesn't affect the lead, the "Drumming" section should really include Lewisohn's finding after listening to a zillion hours of Beatles sessions tapes that only a handful of times had takes been stopped because of Ringo mistakes. He may not have been technically proficient, but he was consistent ...
    • The bit from Lewisohn regarding Starr's consistency was not properly sourced. I own all of Lewisohn's books and I cannot locate a page number for that passage. If you know the page number I will restore the bit. GabeMc (talk|contribs) 21:14, 11 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
It's in the original The Beatles Recording Sessions Harmony Books 1988 ISBN 0-517-57066-1, page 95, the 3 February 1967 entry, which finishes with Lewisohn writing: "It is true that on only a handful of occasions during all of the several hundred session tapes and thousand of recording hours can Ringo be heard to have made a mistake or wavered in his beat. His work was remarkably consistent – and excellent – from 1962 right through to 1970." Wasted Time R (talk) 01:02, 12 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Hey thanks, Wasted! If you only knew how long a searched for that page number while copyediting this article. Its a great point that adds quite a bit. I appreciate the tip! GabeMc (talk|contribs) 01:19, 12 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • The lead (and the article text) gives too little attention to Ringo's acting. The lead could name a couple where he got his best notices, such as That'll Be The Day.
  • The lead should have a little more on his early-mid 1970s solo successes. I would mention three hits - "It Don't Come Easy", "Photograph", and "You're Sixteen" - as they were his biggest (looking at combined US and UK chart success as well as how often they are played now). Certainly these songs are all more important and well known than "Flying"! I would also mention the Ringo album, a top ten in both countries and clearly his biggest seller.

Comments and support from Tim riley

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Support Comments A few very minor quibbles and one rather big one:

  • Early life: 1940–1956
    • In this section you sometimes call him "Starkey" and sometimes "Starr". I think you'd best be consistent.
  • With the Beatles: 1962–1970
    • "having honed his technique to a level previously thought unattainable in the UK" – are we talking about his dancing skills here? If so this seems a far-fetched claim.
    • "During an interview with Playboy magazine in 1964 …" – are you not repeating a libel here? I think lawyers might have a view on this. Mr Best is still alive, after all.
  • 1980s
  • 1990s

An excellent piece of work. I'd be supporting straight away if it were not for the libel point, above. Can someone who knows about such things reassure me? – Tim riley (talk) 11:32, 12 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your encouragement, Tim riley! GabeMc (talk|contribs) 22:40, 12 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Later: a wikicolleague who is a lawyer in real life has reassured me that my concerns on the libel point are needless. I am happy therefore to support this excellent article. It covers all relevant points, as far as I can tell, without going into excessive detail; the prose is clear and readable; there is no evidence of bias. I avoid commenting on images if I can, but as for the text I think this article meets the FA criteria. The nominator may like to ponder the few minor points I raise above, but my support is not conditional thereon. – Tim riley (talk) 15:54, 12 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the kind words and support! I've addressed your above concerns. Thanks for the review! GabeMc (talk|contribs) 22:40, 12 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

John's comments

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I started to examine this and stopped when I came to "A critically acclaimed actor, Starr played key roles in the Beatles' films and appeared in numerous others"; this seems a bit peacocky, especially the "critcally acclaimed". I'll give a fuller review but this wasn't a good start. --John (talk) 14:39, 12 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I agree and I've removed the text-string: "A critically acclaimed actor". Thanks for making the time to take a look! GabeMc (talk|contribs) 22:43, 12 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Source review from Laser brain

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--Laser brain (talk) 11:44, 13 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Prose review by Binksternet

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  • Following the "gentleness" quote about Harry, the next sentence should return the reader to Starkey rather than using only "his" and "he".
  • I don't know the two sources for "irrational fear of conscription". How solid are these? It is an extraordinary claim requiring extraordinary confirmation. If the sources are not so strong, then the word irrational should be removed.
  • Following this bit –"In mid-1956, Graves secured" – the instances of "he" are not so clearly referring to Starkey; they could be misconstrued as Graves.
  • The Clayton Squares landmark sentence has two instances of the word later. One could be changed to a synonym to reduce the clunkiness.
  • Starkey and Trafford took dance lessons, but what about this activity "proved effective"? Some explication is needed, or a removal.
  • The lead section has this bit of information: "...before the fad succumbed to American rock and roll by early 1958." Thus, the "First bands" section wording of "before the UK skiffle craze succumbed to American rock and roll by early 1958" sounds terribly repetitious. The second instance should be sufficiently modified.
  • Really, the bit about skiffle changing to rock and roll belongs in the next paragraph, where Starkey is hired by Caldwell.
    • As it now reads, the text string is a segue from 1958 to 1959. Also, since the sentence is about the Eddie Clayton band I think it should remain in the paragraph about that band, not the Hurricanes. GabeMc (talk|contribs) 21:49, 13 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • The change from Starkey to Starr is clumsy. A sentence should not end "soon before recruiting Starr" until we are told about the new name. The actual Starkey/Starr sentence is too long, with two semicolons. I think it should be split.
  • Following a mention of the French people, the next sentence says "They became so successful..." The subject should be made clear that it is about the Hurricanes and not the French.
  • Following a discussion of the Beatles and the Hurricanes, we have the sentence "Starr performed with them", which is not clear regarding which band. Binksternet (talk) 17:50, 13 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • The section "With the Beatles" starts with a sentence mentioning the Hurricanes and Rory Storm at two different points. This is confusing to the reader who might not remember that the two names refer to the same band.
  • The following sentence is kind of strange with he thought: I commented sounding like two different sentence fragments. They do not flow well... I think Starr's quote could be truncated and summarized. Here's what is currently in the article: "He commented: "I thought, 'That's the end, they're doing a Pete Best on me.'"
    How about this instead? He thought he was being eased out of the band, that "they're doing a Pete Best on me."
  • Calling the album track "With a Little Help from My Friends" Starr Time is confusing, as Starr is not given a drum solo with a spotlight(!) on the vinyl album. It certainly is a song featuring Starr's voice – no question – but not really Starr Time in the manner of the Hurricanes, or in the manner of a Beatles live show with a drum solo highlight.
  • In the context of making the Pepper album I see no reason to name those who covered the song "With a Little Help from My Friends". Also, it is not first "an Australian number one single". Rather, it is first a song written by Lennon and McCartney for Starr to sing, a fact that is lost. The named artists and the Australian chart position are distractions at this point in the biography. Binksternet (talk) 23:00, 13 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Delegate comments -- It doesn't appear to me that there are any outstanding comments but, John, were you still planning to review? FWIW, you picked up the only statement in the lead that concerned me on a quick scan a few days ago, and Gabe's actioned, so that helped... ;-) Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 04:05, 17 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from The Wookieepedian

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The solo section begins with "On 10 April 1970, McCartney publicly announced that he had quit the Beatles". Since Lennon was the one who actually split the band in late 1969 (which was also when Ringo started recording his first solo album), I think it should be changed to reflect that, and was wondering if anyone can find a source. The Wookieepedian (talk) 09:39, 17 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Another thing

Someone needs to fix the sentence claiming the "No No Song" single was from Ringo. It was from Goodnight Vienna. The source given must have been mistaken. The Wookieepedian (talk) 05:43, 18 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

A few things, from JG66

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I've been meaning to add some comments here for a while but have been too busy to contribute to wikipedia. Don't want to hold things up – I can see the FAC's close to being wrapped up. Besides, the article really is in good shape – it is such a pleasure reading those Early life, First bands and With the Beatles sections. The text flows beautifully, whereas I know I've been vocal in the past regarding what I see as too much of a list-like quality in other Beatles FAs. Not this time!

My only concern with the early sections here is how much detail, or rather, amount of text, is given over to discussion of Starr's life up to 1970 at the expense of his solo career during the 1970s. I think it comes down to there being too many quotes from Starr; at times it seems as if a point is made in the text, followed by an obligatory quote from Ringo, especially during the Beatles years. Examples that come to mind are "In a letter published in Melody Maker, a fan asked the Beatles to let Starr sing more; he replied: "[I am] quite happy with my one little track on each album".", "... he did not include a drum kit, Starr explained: "When we don't record, I don't play"." and "During his down-time Starr worked on his guitar playing; he commented: "I jump into chords that no one seems to get into. Most of the stuff I write is twelve-bar"." To me those details are all a bit excessive anyway, but losing them would certainly remove that overuse of quotes issue, in my opinion.

This is your opinion and not an actionable objection. GabeMc (talk|contribs) 00:03, 21 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Aside from that, almost all of my comments concern the first two decades of the Solo career section. As I say, I think that suffers quite a bit after the attention lavished on the earlier sections.

This is your opinion and not an actionable objection. GabeMc (talk|contribs) 00:03, 21 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
1970s
  • The Wookieepedian beat me to it regarding "No No Song" ... Another thing to point out, relevant to the sentence that follows in the article, is "No No Song" was never released as a single in the UK; "Snookeroo" was the second single from Goodnight Vienna there (and it failed to chart).
Okay, but that's only because you've rephrased the relevant sentence while addressing the error re "No No Song" being a single from Ringo. Beforehand, when I wrote my comment, the text didn't explicitly claim that NNS was issued as a UK single, but it was certainly implied: 'The LP yielded two hits, "No No Song", which was a US number three and Starr's seventh consecutive top-ten hit, and "Oh My My", a US number five.[120] While both songs failed to chart in the UK, ...' It's fine now of course. JG66 (talk) 01:26, 21 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • While it's quite correct that "Oh My My" also missed the charts in the UK, its release as a single there came two years after Ringo. Because the 1975 single had nothing to do with promotion for its parent studio album, I think you could delete the mention. Instead it might be worth pointing out that the song was written by Starr and Vince Poncia, because the latter was Ringo's songwriting partner for much of the 1970s, so that way, it at least gives Poncia a presence in the article.
I think you've missing the point: the song was never issued as a UK single in 1973–74; I was talking about the December 1975 (UK) single, "Oh My My" backed with "No No Song". This single, mixing a track from Ringo with one from Goodnight Vienna, was obviously designed to promote Starr's best-of comp (nothing to do with promotion for its parent studio album, in other words). That's why the text "While the single failed to chart in the UK ..." seemed/seems redundant, imo. Anyway, I'm not bothered either way. JG66 (talk) 01:26, 21 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
No, I get the point and I am aware that the song saw multiple release configurations as did others. I just do not see this as an especially important detail to the biography of Starr. This seems to me a bit of detail that is better suited for the song article. When we pump these bios full of excess release detail it begins to read more as a discography than a biography, IMO. GabeMc (talk|contribs) 02:02, 21 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I still think we may have crossed wires on this. Are you thinking I'm suggesting you add something here? I'm suggesting the opposite, in fact. The relevant (excerpted) text in the article reads: 'In November 1973, Starr released Ringo ... The LP yielded the hit song, "Oh My My", a US number five that was Starr's fifth consecutive top-ten hit.[120] While the single failed to chart in the UK, the LP reached number seven there and number two in the US.' So my suggestion is to remove 'While the single failed to chart in the UK' altogether, because "Oh My My" was only issued as a single in the UK in the context of promotion for Blast from Your Past. It seems inaccurate to comment on its lack of UK chart success in a discussion on Ringo therefore. I'm not bothered whether you decide to keep it in, I just want to ensure the point I'm making is understood. JG66 (talk) 03:09, 21 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, you're right. I missed your point; thanks for that catch. Hopefully this edit resolves your concern. GabeMc (talk|contribs) 03:16, 21 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
That's great. Thank you! JG66 (talk) 03:25, 21 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "In 1973, he released two number one hits in the US: "Photograph", a UK number eight hit that was co-written with Harrison, and "You're Sixteen" ..." Firstly, is it correct to say that someone released a number one hit – better: "released two singles that became number one hits in the US"? Also, it seems that this and the next sentence belong in the following para, after "In late 1973, Starr released Ringo, a commercially successful album produced by Richard Perry ..." With the mention of "No No Song" now having to move, there should be an ideal place to move text regarding "Photograph" and "You're Sixteen", to sit with discussion on the album's third single, "Oh My My".
  • I know Evan suggested McCartney's kazoo part on "You're Sixteen" might be worth pointing out, but I can't help thinking that Starr bringing together Lennon and Harrison on "I'm the Greatest" is worthy of inclusion instead (that is, if a choice needs to be made). The session for "Greatest" was a significant moment, being the first time more than two Beatles had recorded together since January 1970. And it could only have happened on a Ringo album ...
  • "Goodnight Vienna followed in 1974 and was also successful, reaching number 30 in the UK ..." I'd qualify that it was successful in the US (number 8, I think?) – not just because that's more reflective of "successful" than a number 30 placing, but also, the album and its singles didn't do too well in the UK. The UK albums chart was just a top 40 then, and Goodnight Vienna lasted two weeks on the chart, I believe.
  • "The commercial impact of Starr's recording career subsequently diminished ..." I wonder if it might be an idea to introduce Starr's alcoholism here, rather than leaving it until the late 1980s, when he and Barbara finally sought treatment. Biographers (I'm sure Doggett's one, Rodriguez also) correlate his lack of success as a solo artist with his carousing with Nilsson, Keith Moon, etc.
  • Further up in the same section: "Starr played drums on Lennon's John Lennon/Plastic Ono Band (1970), Ono's Yoko Ono/Plastic Ono Band (1970), and on Harrison's albums All Things Must Pass (1970) and Living in the Material World (1973)." He also played on George's Dark Horse if we're looking to provide a complete list of guest appearances on 1970s albums by his fellow ex-Beatles? Alternatively, if the idea is simply to name a few notable albums Starr appears on, it might be an idea to mention Nilsson's "Son of Schmilsson" and (perhaps) "Pussy Cats", Nilsson being closely involved with Ringo throughout the 1970s, of course.
    • This is your opinion and not an actionable objection. Again, your near obsession with mentioning every single musician Starr has ever worked with in the last 50+ years. I don't like overstuffing these article the way that you do and I won't go back and forth with you ala the Harrison FAC. GabeMc (talk|contribs) 23:57, 20 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Towards the end of the section: "This inspired Polydor to revamp Starr's formula ..." I think this mention calls for some comment on Starr's previous formula – it wasn't just a change musically that Starr made with producer Arif Mardin for Ringo the 4th, but a (temporary) ditching of the all-star-cast approach that had been a feature of his first three rock solo albums. The issue of Ringo's reliance on his fellow former Beatles (Harrison, for instance, also co-wrote and produced "Back Off Boogaloo"), and other songwriter friends such as Nilsson and Elton John, is not touched on in the article, yet it's one that critics and biographers unfailingly notice. (The All-Starr Band being a full realisation of the "with a little help from my friends" concept.) To my understanding, that's a vital aspect of Starr's solo career, especially in the first decade post-Beatles. And if the point doesn't get presented early in the section, perhaps after Beaucoups of Blues or during discussion of Ringo, then a good place would be here, when the formula gets revamped.
1980s
  • First para. It's a surprise to see so much text dedicated to songs not appearing on Stop and Smell the Roses when the album itself gets such a brief mention. Perhaps the sentence about Lennon's two songs could sit as an end note, and mention of the Harrison-written "Wrack My Brain" single (a minor hit in the US) be added instead.
  • Also, no mention of Old Wave, nor that album he recorded with Chips Moman in 1987 that led to lengthy litigation between Starr and Moman?
Drumming
  • It would be good to see Jim Keltner mentioned. He and Starr had a long association, their twin-drummer partnership dubbed "Thunder and Lightning" – starting with the Concert for Bangladesh and including albums by Starr, Harrison, Nilsson and others, as well as the first All-Starr tours in 1989. I think it's a notable musical association, for a subsection about Starr's drumming.
Singing
  • "he also sang lead on ... "What Goes On", for which he received a co-writer credit with Lennon and McCartney." It seems that this detail regarding a co-writer credit should go, because of a sentence under Composition: "Starr is credited as a co-writer of "What Goes On", "Flying" ..."
Lead section

The lead is very long compared to other individual Beatle FAs. My suggestion would be to paraphrase Steve Smith's quote: the important point surely is the statement that through Starr "we started to see the drummer as an equal participant in the compositional aspect ..." Also, there's a feeling of the proverbial barrel being scraped, I think, with the inclusion of "Act Naturally" and Starr's co-writing credits for "What Goes On" and "Flying", as they're hardly notable songs within the Beatles' canon. I notice Wasted Time said pretty much the same thing in his comments, and it's worth bearing in mind that in the George Harrison article, such notable sole compositions as "Taxman" and "Within You, Without You" don't merit a mention in the lead.

This is your opinion and not an actionable objection. Every single Beatles article need not follow the exact format of the others. They are/were four different people and as such they have four different articles. GabeMc (talk|contribs) 23:57, 20 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Fair enough, and I don't disagree with what you're saying. But check out the disparity, in quantity and quality of information, between the lead in Ringo Starr and that in Paul McCartney. JG66 (talk) 01:26, 21 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that the Macca lead is a bit too brief and I've been planning to expand it for some time. I quite prefer Ringo's lead to Macca's, but that's probably because I wrote most of the content, whereas I seem to remember much more WP:PRESERVE regarding the Macca lead and at least one reviewer mentioned that it seemed too short. GabeMc (talk|contribs) 01:46, 21 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Another thing about the lead: "the US number one hits "It Don't Come Easy", "Photograph" and "You're Sixteen"" is not supported in the main article body, which gives the peak chart position for "It Don't Come Easy" as number 4. Those three singles were all certified gold by the RIAA, perhaps that's the statement to be making here (although currently the text doesn't state that "Easy" went gold also).

Fixed. GabeMc (talk|contribs) 23:57, 20 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Hope that helps. I wouldn't be presenting these concerns, so late in the FAC, unless I thought they were important to address. Again, great work – and to the editors/reviewers above. JG66 (talk) 17:22, 18 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

* Note for delegates. - I won't be addressing any of JG66's comments. The two of us have had some pretty terrible interactions at FAC and I will not allow this to turn into yet another drama fest. We obviously have vastly different ideas and styles and I absolutely refuse to make any attempt to satisfy this user. IMO, their choice to come here now and provide yet another never-ending review at this junction of the FAC is in poor taste in the least. So please pass, fail or archive the nom accordingly. GabeMc (talk|contribs) 19:44, 18 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Well, I ask the delegates to please consider my comments and suggestions as actionable and worthy of some discussion (at the very least) in this FAC. You can be sure I thought long and hard before pressing 'Save page' on the above list, given my troubled history with the person nominating this article, way outside of FAC territory. I acknowledged the eleventh-hour nature of my coming to this page, and I would've thought other comments of mine show that I've taken the trouble to look through what other reviewers have raised here – trying to ensure there's some synergy between my comments and the good work that's already been done on the article. I've not had the time to do anything substantial on wikipedia since the start of August, simple as that.
In some cases, I can't see how the things I've raised can be ignored. The point in the lead stating that Starr had three number one hits in the US just isn't supported in the main article body. Similarly, with his co-writing credit on "What Goes On", it's straight repetition to have it stated under both Singing and Composition.
Fixed. GabeMc (talk|contribs) 23:57, 20 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Less clear-cut perhaps, to support the mention of Goodnight Vienna having been successful with a lowly number 30 UK chart position is just illogical when it peaked at number 8 in the US and was certified gold there. Likewise, what is the logic, the rationale, for the brief list of albums by Lennon, Ono and Harrison that Starr played on?
Mentioned that GV reached number eight in the US. GabeMc (talk|contribs) 23:57, 20 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Other changes could be considered "obvious omissions": no mention of his "Wrack My Brain" chart success (a rarity in itself for Starr post 1976) when two sentences of text are included on songs that failed to make the Stop and Smell the Roses album. Similarly: the lack of anything on Old Wave and the stillborn project with Chips Moman.
Added mention of "Wrack My Brain". GabeMc (talk|contribs) 23:57, 20 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I seem to have ended up identifying categories, for some reason ... Many of the other points I've raised came about through the sheer excellence of the prose and the impressive scope in sections leading up to the one covering Starr's solo career. Then the article appears to drop the (impressive) level of insight, and the complete lack of quotes from Starr is equally obvious. That's what makes it logical to suggest adding points about Starr's alcoholism coinciding with and contributing to his career taking a dive, about the reliance on friends and outsiders for material for his solo albums; just as the removal of some of the inessential quotes from the article's early sections might make the contrast less obvious once we arrive at the quote-less Solo career/1970s section. And I know I've read at least one other person objecting to the Steve Smith quote in the lead and the mention there of "What Goes On" and "Flying". I'd welcome the opinion of other reviewers here on those two issues – and anything else I've raised.
This is your opinion and not an actionable objection. GabeMc (talk|contribs) 23:57, 20 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
We do indeed have "vastly different ideas and styles". What I was and am hoping to see addressed is the way the style and approach within this article appears to change following the Beatles years, in the ways mentioned. (Not my style by any means – all the work of others.) It's a brilliant piece through those first three sections; I've not read anything this good on wikipedia. So I can't understand why someone would choose to ignore suggested changes that are aimed at ensuring those strengths are carried through to an equally important part of the article.
JG66 (talk) 07:40, 19 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I've done my best to resolve the actionable objections you've raised above. After 30+ days and 5 supports there is currently consensus for promotion. If you have any other concerns then please raise them at the article talk page. GabeMc (talk|contribs) 23:57, 20 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
It's good to see some of those important issues addressed. I'm surprised by a number of your decisions, but it's nothing I want to pursue here. (Perhaps on the talk page sometime, perhaps not.) I do think when you revisit the article in the weeks/months ahead, though, you might see what I mean about the abundance of quotes in the early sections and feel the need to cut a few – who knows. I've got no interest in delaying a decision with this FAC, if that's what my arrival was doing (I'd got the impression that user:John's review was still to come, in fact). Thanks, and well done to all, JG66 (talk) 01:26, 21 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I did indeed invite John to review further if he wished to but given almost two weeks has elapsed since then, and you and Gabe seem to have resolved your differing opinions to an extent you're both prepared to live with, I think it's time to call it a day and promote this. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 05:23, 24 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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