Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Ray Reardon/archive1

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Gog the Mild via FACBot (talk) 3 October 2022 [1].

Ray Reardon

Nominator(s): BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 00:04, 24 July 2022 (UTC), Rodney Baggins [reply]

Nicknamed Dracula, Reardon was the dominant snooker player of the 1970s. He won six World Snooker Championships, and was the number one player in six of the first seven years of the snooker world rankings. Thanks in advance for your improvement suggestions. Regards, BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 00:04, 24 July 2022 (UTC) and Rodney Baggins.[reply]

Comments from ChrisTheDude

Wikilink Monmouthshire? (done)
"was presented to him by Joe Davis" - maybe specify who Davis was (former world champion, etc) (done)
"A week later, at Pontins in Prestatyn, Wales, he retained the Professional title and won the Spring Open title" - these both took place at Pontins at the same time?
- I believe so – maybe Benny can check/confirm? Rodney Baggins (talk) 08:43, 25 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  - Thanks, ChrisTheDude. Yes, they did take place at the same time. 1975 was the second "Pontins Festival of Snooker" - this had both professional (eight invited players) and open pro-am (over 650 entrants) events. The professional event took place at the same time as the early rounds of the pro-am event - the professionals were exempted until the 5th round of the open. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 09:32, 25 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
"He advised Ronnie O'Sullivan on the way to his 2004 World Championship victory, giving him psychological and tactical help" - O'Sullivan was already mentioned and linked, so no need to do so again (done)
Think that's all I got - great work! -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 07:13, 25 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Chris, tweaked article per your comments. Rodney Baggins (talk) 08:43, 25 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Support -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 09:35, 25 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Rodney Baggins have you read the instructions at WP:FAC? Please refrain from using templates like done. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:09, 12 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Support by Lee Vilenski

I'll begin a review of this article very soon! My reviews tend to focus on prose and MOS issues, especially on the lede, but I will also comment on anything that could be improved. I'll post up some comments below over the next couple days, which you should either respond to, or ask me questions on issues you are unsure of. I'll be claiming points towards the wikicup once this review is over.

Lede

Do we need the exact ages in the lede? 45 and 46 years old seems enough. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 20:14, 16 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
- Not sure. When setting a record, the number of years and days are probably significant. Rodney Baggins (talk) 16:46, 17 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Reardon also became the oldest player to win a ranking event, which he accomplished in 1982, aged 50 years and 14 days - this should probably say that he is the oldest person, as it's never been beaten (well, for another four years at least!). Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 20:14, 16 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
- Again, not sure. If we say "Reardon is the oldest player to win a ranking event" it might imply he's the oldest living person to have ever won a ranking event, rather than he became the oldest player at the time of the accomplishment. Rodney Baggins (talk) 16:46, 17 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
His highest break in competition was 146. - should maybe mention that he never made a maximum. Maybe "Despite not making a maximum break of 147, his highest was a 146" (this also isn't in the infobox. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 20:14, 16 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks, done. Rodney Baggins (talk) 16:46, 17 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I feel like some of the legacy stuff would make the lede. Being a president of a golf course for 20 years is a big deal. Also inspiring Steve Davis. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 20:14, 16 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks, will do. Rodney Baggins (talk) 16:46, 17 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The last part of the lede, regarding him coaching O'Sullivan and Dracula seems a bit tacked on, and could be worded a bit better. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 20:14, 16 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
- Yes, needs more moulding, with above content added in. Will do. Rodney Baggins (talk) 16:46, 17 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Prose

Link Staffordshire. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 20:24, 16 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks, done. Rodney Baggins (talk) 16:46, 17 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
1949–50 under-19 Junior championship - presumably the Welsh title. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 20:24, 16 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
- Jack Carney was also Welsh so I guess so. Benny, please can you confirm? Rodney Baggins (talk) 16:46, 17 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  - It was the BACC championship, so effectively a UK one, these being the days when the BACC was both the national and worldwide governing body. Everton (e.g. 1985 p.124) refers to it as the "British Junior (under 19) Championships" and I'd used that in the caption but he is out of step with other sources. The Western Mail press report accompanying the picture used refers to "the youths' snooker championship". The report in The Billiard Player has "B.A. & C.C. youth's (16–18) snooker championship". In the 1970/71 B&SCC handbook, they call it the "B&SCC Youth's Snooker Championship". I think from the balance of sources it should probably be referred to as something like the "Billiards Association and Control Council Youth's (16–18) snooker championship". We could possibly also include one further piece of info I've just found - Carney defeated Reardon 3-1 in the final of the Welsh Boys' Snooker Championship in February 1949. ("Carney wins another title", Western Mail, 21 February 1949, p.5). Regards, BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 19:55, 17 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Based on this offer, he resigned from the police force and turned professional in 1967.[ - last time we were told, he was a miner. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 20:24, 16 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
- At end of Early life section: "he quit mining and in 1960 became a police officer" Rodney Baggins (talk) 16:46, 17 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The first para for professional play does seem a bit overly detailed. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 20:24, 16 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks, I can try sorting this. Leave it with me. Rodney Baggins (talk) 16:46, 17 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  - I've trimmed it a bit (but feel free to improve on my attempt, Rodney!). BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 18:59, 24 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
When a sentence ends in a quote, the speech marks goes before the punctuation, unless it is the whole sentence. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 20:24, 16 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
- Maybe Benny could check on these as he has access to the sources. Rodney Baggins (talk) 16:46, 17 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  - Checked these and they are OK. I did make the Karnehm quote refs page-specific. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 20:11, 17 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not a fan of putting the scores in brackets, can we not put them in prose? Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 20:24, 16 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks, I can sort this too. Leave it with me. Rodney Baggins (talk) 16:46, 17 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  - I think I've amended all these, but let me know if I missed any. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 19:04, 24 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

BennyOnTheLoose, Rodney Baggins could we see some action here please, or this is in danger of timing out. Gog the Mild (talk) 17:31, 22 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Lee Vilenski: Please can you check the article again to see if your concerns have been addressed now? Let us know if there is anything outstanding. We can't show his highest break in the infobox because that parameter is no longer supported. Rodney Baggins (talk) 18:16, 26 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Additional comments

Additionally, if you liked this review, or are looking for items to review, I have some at my nominations list. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 12:21, 12 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Comment from Pawnkingthree

Just a quick comment from me - I wondered if a bit more could be said about his personal life. The article doesn't mention his wife or children. His first wife Susan and his son and daughter were all seen in his 1976 This Is Your Life special and were with him when he got his MBE in 1985. [2] I don't know if there are any better sources out there? He remarried; there's a mention of his second wife Carole here.-- Pawnkingthree (talk) 17:29, 24 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, Pawnkingthree. I've found a couple of bits of info in Reardon's autobiography and from press reports. I will add something into the article soon. Regards, BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 18:55, 24 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I've added some details, Pawnkingthree. All the 1980s sources I saw have "Carol" rather than "Carole". (Incidentally, the Aberdeen Evening Express (10 December 1985) reported that he was "due to return to the flat which he shares with another woman" after the MBE ceremony.) Regards, BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 11:05, 25 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you, that addresses my concerns. The article seems fully comprehensive to me now. Pawnkingthree (talk) 21:04, 25 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

image review

File:CarneyReardon_-_Copy.jpg needs a US tag, and per the tag the description should specify what research was done to try to ascertain authorship. Nikkimaria (talk) 15:53, 4 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks, Nikkimaria. What is a reasonable time to allow for the publisher to respond to an enquiry? I've removed the photo as I assume this would be at least a month, which hasn't yet elapsed, and I suppose I might also need to get the image removed from Commons. I'm looking into what would be the appropriate US tag. Thanks. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 18:09, 4 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  - There's no firm requirement, but I think a month is reasonable. Nikkimaria (talk) 02:27, 5 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Ian

Recusing from coord duties to review (I remember watching Reardon and co. on Pot Black as a kid)...

Having read and copyedited the whole article, my only question is whether we know his first wife's maiden name? I think a spouse's full name (if known) belongs in a comprehensive bio, and we mention his second wife's surname...
Aside from that, nothing really preventing my support, just pending the source review (which I might undertake myself if no-one else steps up, but let's see)...

Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 09:42, 29 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Many thanks, Ian Rose. In his autobiography, Reardon mentions that Sue was the niece of Billy Carter, but does not mention her surname. The same information is repeated in Masters of the Baize. FreeBMD has an answer, but it's not a suitable source. I checked other likely sources such as Who's Who In Snooker; The Hamlyn Encyclopedia of Snooker; Snooker Legends: And Where are They Now?; Karnehm's books (which had a section on some players' wives); Reardon's Classic Snooker, Bedside Snooker and Enjoying Snooker with Ray Reardon: A Personal Guide to the Game; all without success. Similarly, I drew a blank in the British Newspaper Archive and NewsBank. Regards, BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 21:48, 29 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Well I think that's a pretty decent search -- we can only use what we're given via an RS. Tks/cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 22:00, 29 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Source review -- formatting looks okay, but some queries re. reliability:

Rileys.co.uk -- Is a sports bar chain, even one specialising on cue sports, really a high-quality source? As one of three citations for a statement, it seems a tad redundant anyway...
I confirmed that this is redundant, and removed it. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 10:23, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
snookerdatabase.co.uk -- Looks a bit amateurish in presentation, what makes it an RS?
I decided to replace the references. In the course of doing this, I noted that no books cover Pot Black and (for the year that Reardon participated), Winfield Masters results in detail - these were both only one-frame contests in the early rounds; typically book sources include a list of finalists, with, in some cases, the final scores and highest break for the year. Even the annual Pot Black books don't include details of the previous year's event. Although Pot Black is a significant tournament in snooker history, Reardon's participation in finals is covered in the Career finals section, and his Winfield Masters appearance is not significant, so I removed those lines from the Performance and rankings timeline. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 13:07, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
snooker.org -- Looks like an SPS, what makes it an RS?
I think the source is generally respected, but I've replaced it anyway. (On the basis that it disagreed with Snooker Scene on Reardon's 1990–91 ranking). BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 11:09, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
- We have discussed this one a lot at FAC. It's a statistical site for results with awards given by Brittania and the BBC. If we cite things outside of match results and format information of tournaments, then I would want a bit more, but otherwise seems high quality. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 11:22, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 22:57, 1 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

P.S. Can we confirm the edition of Park Drive Official Snooker and Billiards Year Book really has no ISBN? Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 10:33, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I checked inside the book, none is given. The WorldCat entry and British Library Catalogue entry don't mention one either. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 11:09, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Is this the work with an OCLC of 498112105? Gog the Mild (talk) 21:14, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Yes - I added that. Regards, BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 22:54, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Your review is very much appreciated, Ian Rose. Let me know if you have any further questions or comments. Regards, BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 13:07, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, I think that's it, happy to support. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 23:14, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Closing note: This candidate has been promoted, but there may be a delay in bot processing of the close. Please see WP:FAC/ar, and leave the {{featured article candidates}} template in place on the talk page until the bot goes through. Gog the Mild (talk) 19:53, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.