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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Gog the Mild via FACBot (talk) 9 June 2024 [1].

Pantheon ad Lucem

[edit]
Nominator(s): ♠PMC♠ (talk) 05:33, 11 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I return to you with another of McQueen's lesser works, the restrained (and frequently misspelled) Pantheon ad Lucem. Like his later collection Neptune, it drew on Ancient Greece with a side of science fiction. McQueen pulled back on the runway shenanigans for Pantheon to focus on design. Critics expected bombast, and reception was consequently mixed; one reviewer complained that the exaggerated hourglass dresses that finished the show made the models look like "Scandinavian- designed salt and pepper shakers." In retrospect, the collection suffers for its placement between two of his absolute bangers - Deliverance and It's Only a Game. Nevertheless, it should be remembered for its beautiful draped garments and artful use of fabric. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 05:33, 11 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comments

[edit]
  • "Inspired by ideas of rebirth, Ancient Greek garments" - "ancient" doesn't need a capital mid-sentence
    • Oop, I always forget that
  • In the "concept" section, you don't need to say all of "Pantheon ad Lucem[a] (Autumn/Winter 2004) is the twenty-fourth collection by British designer Alexander McQueen for his eponymous fashion house." as you already introduced him and his house in the previous section. Shorten to "Pantheon ad Lucem[a] (Autumn/Winter 2004) was McQueen's twenty-fourth collection for his eponymous fashion house." And move the link to Alexander McQueen (fashion house) to the point where you mentioned it in the previous section.
    • Fixed
  • "historicism was typical for McQueen." - historicism was already linked above, no need to link again. I also see Doctor Who, Domenico De Sole and eveningwear linked multiple times. Check for overlinking generally
    • Rm and fixed sentence a bit, as well as trimming the wording of the second De Sole mention. Eveningwear link fixed but I left the second Dr Who link as it's a different section and far enough away
  • "Booth Moore for the Los Angeles Times felt designers in general " => "Booth Moore for the Los Angeles Times felt that designers in general "
  • "that he didn't know" => "that he did not know"
    • Both above revised
  • Note a isn't a complete sentence so it doesn't need a full stop
    • Fixed
  • That's what I got :-) -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 16:50, 12 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 07:25, 13 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Aoba47

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  • I would recommend adding WP:ALT text for File:McQueen, Musée des beaux-arts - 36 (cropped to Pantheon).jpg.
    • Done
  • I have a question about this part, (at the Grande halle de la Villette, Paris). Would it be more beneficial to say something like (at the Grande halle de la Villette in Paris) to clarify in the prose that this is a building in Paris? I have not really seen buildings presented this way when discussed with their cities.
  • For this part, (In contrast to his usually-bombastic presentations, the show), I think it would read better if you say McQueen's instead of his. Something about starting with the pronoun in a new paragraph reads a bit off at least to me.
    • Above both done
  • It might be helpful to make the quote box in the "Background" section a bit thicker to avoid any potential interference with the following section depending on how readers access and view the article.
    • Upped from 25 to 30%
  • The second paragraph of the "Background" section has multiple sentences in a row starting with a year or a set of years. If possible, I'd try to change at least one instance of this to avoid the prose from appearing like a listing of dates and events. I could just be over-thinking this though so feel free to disagree as it is rather minor.
    • I made a couple tries at writing around this but I couldn't find anything I liked. If this one isn't a sticking point for you, I think I'm going to leave it as is.

These are my comments for the lead and "Background" section. Apologies for doing a more piece-meal approach to this one. I unfortunately do not have the time today to thoroughly read and review the full article, but I wanted to at least get started. I do not see anything major, and my comments are mostly nitpicks. Aoba47 (talk) 21:58, 16 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

New rule, no more apologies between friends :)
  • As noted above, the "ancient" in this part, (from the loosely draped style of Ancient Greek garments), does not need to be capitalized. I did not see any other instances, but it may be worth double-checking to just make sure.
    • Oops, fixed
  • I would attribute the following sentence: (These items may also have been influenced by Tunisian designer Azzedine Alaïa.) Since it is discussing something that may be an influence, I would clarify in the prose who made this interpretation.
    • Done
  • I have a clarification question about this part, (and eyes slanted artificially with invisible tape). Did any critics discuss these slanted eyes in the context of Asian stereotypes (i.e. people making fun of Asians by pulling back their eyes)?
    • No one mentioned this. My guess is that because of the styling, it wasn't taken as referencing Asian people.
  • Apologies in advance for the silly question, but is it "eveningwear" or "evening wear"? I thought it was two words, but you would have more knowledge in this field and I actually do not think I have ever seen it written down before.
    • SchroCat says it's two words in British English, and he's my north star in that department, so I've tweaked that

That should be everything. Once all my comments have been addressed, I will read through the article a few more times to make sure I have not missed anything. It was a fun and engaging read. Best of luck with the FAC! Aoba47 (talk) 15:48, 17 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

SC
Lead
  • The OED has "eveningwear" as two words, not one (also repeated a few times in the body)
    • Corrected throughout
  • Estonian model Tiiu Kuik: Does her nationality matter?
    • I guess not
Concept
  • You give the incorrect translations, but not the correct one...
    • Interestingly and annoyingly, I've never found anyone who tries to account for which of the several senses of "Pantheon" McQueen is going for here. It's entirely possible he was just sticking cool-sounding foreign words together and didn't have a particular meaning in mind. I could add the various possible translations into the footnote if you think that's useful.
      • I think it translates as "pantheon to light" (which would also explain the styling of the runway). UndercoverClassicist would be able to confirm or correct the point as necessary. I think the correct translation is more important than the mistranslations, as far as the article text goes, and would counsel for keeping it in the body, but your call. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 07:58, 19 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If the intended meaning is "to light" (in the sense of "a monument to heroism"), it's not great Latin: ad like this should really mean "towards".
Probably the most intuitive translation of the words as written is "Pantheon towards the light" (Latin doesn't have a word for 'the', so it's added to nouns as needed in English), but I must admit that doesn't make much sense to me.
I suspect he was going for "Pantheon" in the sense of a temple rather than the usual sense of a collection of gods? UndercoverClassicist T·C 10:01, 19 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm hesitant to assume a translation, because it's impossible to know what sense of the word pantheon McQueen was going for and it's not clear from context. The real problem is that no sources directly address the discrepancy. The closest thing I have to anyone acknowledging it is Fairer & Wilcox saying that the title "included the Latin for 'towards the light'" (my emphasis). Most other sources uncritically say something like "Pantheon ad Lucem, translated as 'towards the light'" and don't comment further. I assume they're thinking something like "oh, this Latin phrase has three words and the English translation has three words, that checks out", not considering that translation isn't always a one to one situation. So we have a situation where I think we can fairly say "many people are not translating this fully" but not one where we can go so far as to say "and here's the full translation". ♠PMC♠ (talk) 10:52, 19 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Production details
  • 'Alternately, they can be seen as "the base of a hovering starship"': As this is an opinion, it's probably best to attribute it directly to the writer
    • Done
  • "famously": probably best to delete this one
    • Done
  • "makeup" is hyphenated in BrEng
    • fixed

Catwalk

  • Estonian model Tiiu Kuik: Again, does her nationality matter?
    • Removed
Negative
  • "Scandinavian- designed": is there meant to be a space there?
    • Oh, nope, removed

That's my lot. Another very enjoyable read, for which I thank you. - SchroCat (talk) 10:08, 18 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support Comments from JennyOz

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Hello PMC, an enjoyable and evocative article. I have a few comments and questions...

top

  • order needs tweaking to - short des / italic title / good / eng and date
    • Done

Concept and creative process

  • who specialised in bias-cut dresses cut to loosely drape and wrap around the body - avoid 2x cut? Something like 'who specialised in dresses bias-cut to loosely drape and wrap'
    • switched "cut to" to "meant to"
  • including tweed suits and fur coats - link tweed
    • Done
  • Look 54 echoed the gaping neckline in a design with elements of Tudor period clothing - that article has a link to the clothes they wore which illustrates the neckline. Swap link?
    • Swapped link, but to the main article, not right to the gallery
  • made from real feathers - why "real"?
    • As opposed to artificial feathers
  • delaying the collection's production.[1] McQueen called the orchid dresses "pivotal" to the collection's presentation.[1] Because of the production issues with the orchid prints, the collection was delayed - repetition "delaying the collection's" and "collection was delayed". Maybe change last sentence to 'Because of the production issues with the orchid prints, the collection was delayed and did not leave the production facility in Italy until nearly two days before the show.'
    • God, what an ugly string of sentences that was. I've revised entirely to cut the redundancy.

Runway show

  • at the Grande halle de la Villette, Paris - in Paris
    • Fixed
  • PPR president Francois-Henri Pinault, PPR chairman Serge Weinberg, - could remove second PPR
    • Done
  • Alternately, author Judith Watt - For "Alternately" a better word might be 'Alternatively' ie (another choice) as opposed to 'taking turns'?
    • Removed entirely, the sentence works without it
  • Also sprach Zarathustra - the fanfare's name is "Sunrise" per Also sprach Zarathustra#Structure. Do refs not mention its name?
    • Not the ones I'm using to ref its appearance in the show. I could get an outside ref for the name and put it in the text, but it doesn't seem that important
  • used in Stanley Kubrick's 1968 film 2001: A Space Odyssey. - remove (film) from pipe per twice above
    • Oop yea
  • The 1980 Kate Bush song - link Bush?
    • Done
  • "Orchid" shoulder-piece that accompanied the final look - "accompanied" sounds to me as a minor accessory whereas looking at its photos at V&A it's a spectacular part of the whole. Would "that featured in the final look" be too strong?
    • No, that's better
  • wore an evening gown in light grey tulle - hyphen light-grey, link Tulle (netting)?
    • I don't think the color gets hyphenated? SchroCat, any BrEng input here? Tulle linked though.

Reception Positive

  • Michael Fink, a market director for Saks Fifth Avenue, told WWD that he - WWD is not explained until section Retrospective - move full name and link up to here?
    • Oop yup, consequence of revamping
  • be similarly figure-hugging.[52] Similarly, in her review - 2x similarly a bit close?
    • Fixed
  • financial backers at Gucci Group that - twice above it is Gucci group
    • Made capitlized consistently

Negative

  • Booth felt many designs were - Moore felt
    • Aargh I thought I got all of those

Retrospective

  • 12th-highest pageviews at Style.com for the - article doesn't use italics?
    • Per MOS:WEBITALIC, it should be if it's basically a work of journalism (I'm paraphrasing), which Style.com was
  • McQueen told Harper's Bazaar in August 2004 that was unsure - missing 'he' after "that"
    • Fixed
  • journalist Dana Thomas omits - link her?

Analysis and legacy

  • One dress and one pair of boots from Pantheon appeared in the 2022 exhibition Lee Alexander McQueen: Mind, Mythos, Muse. - the dress in the top image was in a separate staging ie 2023 but was it the same dress?
    • Yeah, it was.
  • Curators described it as an example - what does "it" refer to here? Pantheon or their exhibition?
    • It's either that specific dress or the whole collection, but I don't have the Mythos book back until tomorrow, so I'll have to wait to check
      • It was that particular dress and another not from Pantheon and not pictured in this article.
  • The orchid shoulder-piece sold for $43,750 - format per others ie "Orchid" shoulder-piece ?
    • Done

Misc consistency

  • adverbial hyphens - "usually-bombastic", "highly-structured", "heavily-decorated", "strongly-positive", "commercially-viable" v most without eg "tightly curled hair", "heavily beaded", etc
    • de-hyphenated
  • science fiction hyphens - "science fiction films" (x3) and "science fiction show" v "science-fiction elements" (x2) and "science-fiction roots"
    • de-hyphenated

Quote boxes

  • (interesting current discussion at VPP) - did you consider adding coloured backgrounds?
    • If it's all the same to you, I don't like colored backgrounds for quote boxes

Visual Editor quirks?

  • Maybe not specifically an FA compliance issue but I am trying to understand what VE does...
Unnecessarily piped links - eg [[Fashion show|fashion shows]] and [[Star Trek|''Star Trek'']] and [[Wig|wigs]] - are these a quirk of Visual Editor? There are about 14 of these. They render and link okay of course but look strange in edit mode especially when many other links don't have the duplication.
And this: (2022)''.'' italics on a full stop? Why does VE do that?
    • Yes, they're a VE quirk. Someone usually shows up and fixes them with a script, so I rarely bother fixing it manually especially as it doesn't make a difference in the rendered page.

References - duplicates (maybe this a VE thing too?)

  • Refs 1 and 57 Armstrong, Lisa
  • Refs 24 and 48 Limnander, Armand
  • Refs 25 and 54 Todd, Stephen
  • Refs 26 and 27 and 47 Friedman, Vanessa
    • Yeah, I think it's a VE thing; now fixed

Category

  • Category:March 2004 events in France
    • Added

Hoping something of value above, JennyOz (talk) 06:29, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • JennyOz thank you, I appreciate your thorough read-throughs. All done except two things - "light-grey" and will have to double check the Mythos book once I grab it tomorrow. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 07:40, 22 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    • That all looks brilliant thanks! I've made a clarifying comment above re hyphenating colours but I'm happy to s'port either way. (Hey, when I saw that headpiece at The Met Gala earlier this month, I said to myself "Ah! I recognise that, Widows, thanks to PMC!") JennyOz (talk) 05:28, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

a few comments from sawyer777

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  • is there a publishing location for Thomas 2015?
    • Yes and I darn well don't know why I keep losing it when I do ref dumps, lol
  • Curators described the dress as an example of how McQueen's "proficiency in piecing" – assembling an item from multiple cuts of fabric – "translates into garments that generate sinuous movement around the body". sounds clunky to me - is there a better way to convey what piecing means?
    • Not reaaaaaally? It feels awkward to explain it first then go with the quote. I could remove the explanation, but if you don't know what piecing is, it's kind of meaningless praise. I could do a footnote I guess?
  • i removed the first one i noticed but there are quite a few repetitive citations, e.g. refs 30 & 1 in the last paragraph of the "concept & creative process" section; it'd be good to go through and trim/condense the unnecessary ones.
    • I tend to leave dupe cites in place because I'm a little hamster and I constantly rearrange things and if I don't dangle refs off every sentence, I lose track of them in moving stuff around
  • "orchid" is linked in the body but not the leade.
    • Done

that's all for now! ... sawyer * he/they * talk 07:01, 2 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Sawyer777 I've responded to all, cheers :) ♠PMC♠ (talk) 03:05, 3 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
great! i agree that the piecing bit is tricky - if only there was an article about the technique to link to. i can't think of any better way to word it myself, and a footnote seems like it'd be too much. the duplicate ref thing definitely makes sense and is no skin off my back, just something that caught my eye. neither of those particularly bother me. looking at the rest of the comments on here, happy to support. ... sawyer * he/they * talk 03:47, 3 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe I could do an entry in the glossary of sewing terms, if I can find the sourcing. Thanks for your comments and your support! ♠PMC♠ (talk) 03:59, 3 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
good idea with the glossary! ... sawyer * he/they * talk 04:00, 3 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
And done! ♠PMC♠ (talk) 05:01, 3 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Source and image review

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While I am somewhat iffy on The Independent lately, it seems like the author is good enough. Is "Homer, Karen (2023). Little Book of Alexander McQueen: The Story of the Iconic Brand. London: Welbeck Publishing Group. ISBN 978-1-80279-270-6" a reliable source?

  • Welbeck Publishing Group appears to be a reputable publisher, and Karen Homer is a fashion journalist who has written other books about fashion.

I don't think we need an external link that is already used as a source.

  • Normally I wouldn't, but it's consistent with other articles in the series having an easily-accessible link to the official video of the show

File:Star Wars and the Power of Costume July 2018 13 (Princess Leia's white gown from Episode IV).jpg might need a template about the costume's copyright status.

Only two images seem to have ALT text.

With File:Grande halle de la Villette, Paris 12 March 2016.jpg I kinda wonder about the variety of EXIFs that the Flickr uploader has used. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 17:19, 2 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the review, Jo-Jo Eumerus, I've replied above. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 03:44, 3 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Drive-by comments

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  • Bibliography: The first item, why is Alexander McQueen not given as 'McQueen, Alexander' as all the other authors are?
    • Alexander McQueen the person isn't the "author" of the video, some unknown videographer is. The "Alexander McQueen" at the beginning is part of the whole title of the video, which is "Alexander McQueen | Women's Spring/Summer 2004 | Runway Show". The "Alexander McQueen" linked in the "Publisher" field is the brand, which published the video on its channel.
  • "For the show's finale, model Tiiu Kuik wore a grey evening gown with an exaggerated hourglass silhouette, styled with a shoulder-piece decorated with silver orchids, walking to the spotlit centre of the stage to the sound of a flatlining heart monitor." The grammar doesn't work. You have "Tiiu Kuik wore a grey evening gown ... walking to the spotlit centre". Gog the Mild (talk) 19:30, 8 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]


The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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