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Palo (religion)

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Palo (religion) (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

As of 9 September 2024, 23:26 (UTC), this page is active and open for discussion. An FAC coordinator will be responsible for closing the nomination.
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Nominator(s): Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:39, 29 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about an Afro-Cuban religion revolving around spirits that are housed in cauldrons and fed with blood. Much of the tradition derives from the Kongo religion of Central Africa, so there is much here to interest Africanists as well as those intrigued by religions of the Americas. This has been a Good Article since August 2023 and I am now hoping to bring it to FA status, having already done so for two other Afro-Caribbean religion articles, Santería and Rastafari. Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:39, 29 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

  • Suggest editing captions for grammar
  • Suggest adding alt text
  • File:WLA_metmuseum_Power_Figure_Male_Nkisi.jpg: what is the copyright status of the work pictured?
  • In this case, the creator of the original nkisi being photographed will probably never be known; nor will the exact date when it was made, although it is dated to between 1800 and 1950. The object is nevertheless on display in a public museum and the photograph has been issued under a Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 2.5 Generic license. Midnightblueowl (talk) 10:41, 30 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • As we don't have access to the copyright status of the original object (as the creator is now de facto anonymous), could we maybe use a picture of a nkisi from a museum in a different country that does have freedom of panorama for non-buildings? Could we use this (File:Nkisi-Songye (British Museum).jpg) image from the UK, for instance? Or this one (File:Nkisi figure, Congo, DR Congo, early 20th century - Rautenstrauch-Joest-Museum - Cologne, Germany.jpg) from Germany? Midnightblueowl (talk) 10:12, 26 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • File:Goetia_seals.jpg: are these taken directly from the Lesser Key, or are they original works?
  • The explanation given by the original uploader claims that they are their own original illustrations, but looking closely, the fact that there are numbers right by them suggests that this is actually a scan from a printed edition of the Lesser Key, which will probably be late 19th or early-to-mid 20th-century in date. I think the safest bet is just to get rid of this image from the article. Midnightblueowl (talk) 10:27, 30 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • File:Fétiche_du_Bas-Congo.jpg: what is the copyright status of the work pictured, and if the author is unknown how do we know they died over 70 years ago?
  • I've changed the licensing on this one; as it was published in Belgium in the first decade of the 20th century, we should be able to use the following: "This image is in the public domain in the United States because it was first published outside the United States prior to January 1, 1929." Midnightblueowl (talk) 09:13, 30 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • I've removed this image from the article; while the photograph is late 19th-century in origin, I am unsure when it was first published, which raises issues when trying to determine its copyright status. Midnightblueowl (talk) 09:35, 30 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Coordinator note

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This has been open for over three weeks and has yet to pick up a support. Unless there's substantial progress in the next few days, it is liable to be archived. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs talk 14:04, 19 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I've been waiting for the right moment to review this one, will it postpone it being archived if I begin soon? FunkMonk (talk) 23:04, 19 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, the nomination seems to have been "saved" by three reviews beginning before I got the time, but feel free to ping me if it somehow stalls. FunkMonk (talk) 21:52, 26 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hey FunkMonk the nomination has picked up more reviews but it would only be improved by additional commentary. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs talk 13:38, 27 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Midnightblueowl any update on addressing the comments provided by reviewers below? Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs talk 14:07, 1 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your message. I've just logged in and will address those comments now. Midnightblueowl (talk) 09:15, 3 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Jens

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I already started on this a few days ago. Very difficult for me to find any issues here (it is an excellent and very solid work as always), but here is what I got so far, more soon:

  • link "orthodoxy"?
  • meaning "a person who works a nganga" – Nganga is mentioned here for the first time in the main text, not sure if this needs a short gloss?
  • From reading the article it seems to me that this religion has more connections to forests than similar African diasporic religions, maybe because the Bakongo originally depended on the African rainforest? --Jens Lallensack (talk) 23:50, 19 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    • It is possible, although even among certain West African groups like the Fon, initiatory rituals will take place in the forest (Timothy Landry's book discusses this), so the Bakongo were not alone in regarding the forest as a place ideally suited for spirit contact. Moreover, even in more West African-derived diasporic traditions, such as Santería and Candomblé, there is some importance placed on going into the forest to collect healing plants. Midnightblueowl (talk) 08:55, 26 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Caption: human skull and bones displayed in the Museo de Orishas in Havana. Human remains are included in the nganga of Palo. – Does this particular specimen on display have any connections with Palo? If so, could these be pointed out?
    • Unfortunately I'm not sure exactly what this specimen actually represents. I chose it because we lack good photographs at Wikimedia Commons to illustrate this article (we could really do with a photo of an actual nganga), so have had to use less relevant imagery. Do you think this image should be removed? Midnightblueowl (talk) 08:55, 26 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • judíasto – space missing
  • When a new nganga is created for a padre or madre, – I couldn't follow here; "padre" and "madre" are mentioned here for the first time but are not explained. Maybe they can be avoided here (maybe replace with "senior practitioner")?
  • and draw marks on their body, often in cascarilla – what does this mean? Cascarilla is a plant? What is "draw in cascarilla"?
  • Practitioners kneel before the ngangas in greeting; they often greet it – should "it" be "them" so that the plural matches?
  • they often greet it with the words "Salaam alaakem, malkem salaam." – Can this be translated?
    • Dodson doesn't give a translation in his text, unfortunately, which is the only reliable source I have found to support this statement. It seems obvious that the phrase comes from the Arabic greeting that means "peace be upon you", but I am unsure if Palo practitioners (very few of whom are likely to speak Arabic) would use it to convey the same exact meaning. It may be that they are simply repeating a phrase that bears ritual significance but for which the original connotations (perhaps brought over by enslaved African Muslims) has been lost. If the latter scenario is the case, a comparison could be made with the term nganga, which means something quite different in Palo from what it meant to Kikongo speakers in Central Africa. To try and deal with the situation, what I have done here is added a link to the Wikipedia article on As-salamu alaykum. Midnightblueowl (talk) 13:53, 26 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • does its keeper's bidding, the latter sometimes threaten it, – "threatens"?
  • In "Beliefs", there is this sentence: Senior practitioners may have multiple ngangas, some of which they have inherited from their own teachers. In "Practises", this is stated: At their initiation ceremony to the level of padre or madre, a palero/palera will often be given their own nganga. – This now sounds as if most paleros don't have their own nganga? That's not what I imagined after reading the "beliefs" section. Maybe this could be shortly mentioned in the "beliefs" section too.
    • I've added the following to the Beliefs section: "A practitioner may receive a nganga only once they have reached a certain level of seniority in the tradition,". Hopefully that makes things clearer at an earlier stage in the article. Midnightblueowl (talk) 10:06, 26 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Some practitioners are content to remain at this level and do not pursue further initiation to reach the level of padre or madre. – This contradicts the earlier statement that initiation into padre or madre is "rare". Should it be "Most practitioners are content to remain at this level"?
  • When the tata or yayi or a house is close to death, – How can a house be dead?
  • After this leader's death, other senior initiates often have the option – Is this indeed only referring to the death of the new leader, and does not apply when the original leader dies?
  • it is also expected that sacrifices one the ngangas cumplimiento – please check grammar
  • Is there any membership fee for being part of a house? Or how do the leaders sustain themselves?
    • I suspect that there is a fee for initiation, as this is common in African diasporic traditions. House leaders may also offer ritual services to clients, again something common in related religions. It is also possible that they will have employment separate from their ritual tasks. Midnightblueowl (talk) 09:15, 26 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • A practitioner may later experience a second rayamiento, enabling them to become a full-ranking initiate of the praise house and thus create their own nganga. – Does this mean becoming "padre" or "madre" (terms that were used earlier)?
  • the Cuban anthropologist Lydia Cabrera studied made a study of Palo – remove one "study"
  • Palo is found all over Cuba, although is particularly strong in the island's eastern provinces. – "it" missing?
  • @Midnightblueowl: That's all from me. Fascinating article, and I expect to support this soon. --Jens Lallensack (talk) 18:34, 24 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Alavense

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  • It may be worth saying that ramas is Spanish for "branches".
  • paleros if male, paleras in female
  • A similarly pejorative term embraced by some adherents is brujo (witch) - I think "witch" is generally only used to refer to women, whereas brujo is a masculine term.
  • which has its origins among the secret male societies practiced among the Efik-Ibibio. - Maybe it would read more clearly if "which has its origins among the secret male societies and is practiced among the Efik-Ibibio".
  • it is sometimes said that they have "cruzar palo con cha" - That doesn't quite work, because cruzar is the infinitive, not the participle as in "crossed".
  • I have amended the sentence to the following: "When an individual practises both Santería and Palo, it is sometimes said that they "cruzar palo con cha" ("cross Palo with Ocha")." Do you think that works okay? Midnightblueowl (talk) 10:25, 3 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    • Not quite. So both they have "cruzado palo con cha" and they "cruzan palo con cha" would work, but not the way you have it now. If you want to avaoid that issue, rearranging the sentence might work: "Cruzar palo con cha" ("cross Palo with Ocha") is a phrase used to indicate that an individual practises both Santería and Palo or something along those lines. Besides, why is it Ocha in the English translation? Alavense (talk) 14:09, 3 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • The anthropologist Todd Ramón Ochoa, an initiate of Palo Briyumba, described Nsambi - I think "describes" would be better.
  • Mama canata is the only term in which the second word is spelled in lowercase. Is this due to anything in particular?
  • with Kerestetzi observing that one of Palo's central features was its belief - Again, I think "is" would be more suitable. There are other instances of this.
  • rinconcito ("little corners") - rinconcito is singular.
  • Is casuela spelt like that in the sources?
  • it is the divine itself[...] - A space is missing there.
  • Sometimes, the bones of a criminal or mad person are deliberately sought - Why? It feels a bit counterintuitive, doesn't it?
  • I'll need to double check if Ochoa actually offers an explanation; it would probably be out of a perception that these individuals are more dangerous and thus more useful in carrying out attacks on enemies etc, if that is what the palero or palera requires. Midnightblueowl (talk) 10:46, 3 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    • The first time I read it, it felt a bit counterintuitive, so I think it would be better to explain a little further if the source allows it. Alavense (talk) 14:09, 3 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
      • I've checked the source (Ochoa) and it is apparent that these bones are used only for the un-baptised ngangas. That being the case, I've moved the sentence in question to the paragraph discussing those; I think it works much better there. Unfortunately, Ochoa still doesn't give an explicit reason why these bones would be favoured. Midnightblueowl (talk) 20:34, 9 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Is trata the word used in the sources?
  • attempts to "cool" and settle them - Why use quotation marks for cool? There's more than one instance of this.
  • I've added marks to indicate that these concepts of coolness and hotness are not literal references to temperature. It's a conceptual idea, stemming from West African traditional worldviews, with 'heat' as something that is associated with action, violence, motion, etc, and 'coolness' as conversely linked with peace, calm, etc. ;We could really do with a distinct article on this particular concept. Midnightblueowl (talk) 10:38, 3 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "cerré el pacto" literally means "I sealed the deal".
  • The human remains included in them is - Are?
  • it is said to be nacer - "it is said to nacer" would work, as it is in the infinitive.
  • that the power of nganga cristianas are - Is?
  • Havana is not linked anywhere.
  • I've added a wikinink in at the first mention.
  • Munanso congo form familias de religion - I guess this will depend on the sources, but in standard Spanish religion is spelt with a tilde, religión.
  • mayordomo is Spanish for "steward" or "butler", in case you may want to add that.
  • Drawings called firmas, their name derived from the Spanish for "signature" - firmas is literally signatures, so can that be really said to be "derived"?
  • firmas's - firmas being plural, I guess it should be either "firmas'" or "firma's".
  • The creation of these drawings are - Is?
  • Is cumplimiento in the sources?
  • Animal sacrifice is thus a key part of Palo ritual, where it is known by the Spanish language term matanza - Maybe it ought to be said that matanza doesn't mean sacrifice.
  • in the el Cuarto de religión - in el cuarto de religión, given that el already means "the". And I don't see why "Cuarto" has to be uppercase in any of the two instances.
  • Corrected. Midnightblueowl (talk) 20:34, 9 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Students are instructed in Palo through stories, songs, and the recollections of elders; they will also watch their elders and seek to decipher the latter's riddles - What does "latter" refer to there?
  • "muertos oscuros entities" reads a bit weird. Maybe a comma after the parenthesis would do the trick.
  • It's nación in the singular but naciones, without the tilde, in the plural, not naciónes.
  • If Esteban Montejo is the one you are referring to, you can link the article.
  • cofradias should be cofradías.
  • placing their victim's bones in Palo cauldrons - If there were 14 people killed, then "victims'", no?

That's my lot. Kind regards, Alavense (talk) 18:49, 26 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Many thanks, Alavense - it's been excellent to have someone with a good grasp of Spanish take a look at this article. As you can probably tell, my Spanish is not good at all. I've responded to all of your comments, although in a few cases I will have to consult Ochoa's book, which I should be able to do in a few days time. Thanks again. Midnightblueowl (talk) 10:56, 3 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you very much for your responses, Midnightblueowl. I've replied to a few above. Excellent work! Kind regards, Alavense (talk) 14:09, 3 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, Alavense. I think I have now addressed all of your concerns. I appreciate the time you have spent on this. Midnightblueowl (talk) 21:22, 9 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Mike Christie

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  • "It arose amid a process of syncretism": shouldn't this be "via" or "through", rather than "amid"?
    • This is a bit of a tricky one. There are various scholarly debates on the validity of syncretism as a concept, although the term has long been heavily used in the study of African diasporic religions. My concern about "through" or "via" is that it might imply a simplistic idea that Palo = Kongo religion + Catholicism. The reality is more complex like that; Palo is a new religion that drew upon both Kongo religion and (to a lesser extent) Catholicism, but also made noted innovations of its own. My use of "amid" was an attempt to reflect that Palo emerges from the interaction of these religious traditions but is not just a product of one being stuck on to the other. Do you think there is a better way of phrasing this? Midnightblueowl (talk) 11:13, 3 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
      If there's some hesitancy about using the word "syncretism", it might be better to drop it, but it sounds like the sources use it enough that we need to reflect that. One thing that bothers me about the current formulation in the lead is that it doesn't have the nuances that you provide in your answer to me here; it reads as if "amid" is a poor word choice for "via", because it's not clear what it else it could mean for something to arise amid a process. Could you add some of that nuance to the statement in the lead? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 01:45, 4 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "the more significant they are often regarded": suggest "the more significant they are often considered to be".
  • "The senior practitioner creating the nganga may ask a madre or padre to assist them, something considered a great privilege": this comes before we have said what madre and padre refer to.
  • "will divine to ensure that everything is going okay": "okay" is a bit colloquial for encyclopedic tone; how about "going well"?
  • "the tata or yayi may not tell the padre/madre": do you mean they are not permitted to tell, or it is possible that they will not tell? I think the latter but it's not clear. If I'm right, how about "may choose not to tell"?
  • "Styles of drumming that have been transmitted within Palo include the ritmas congos and influencias bantu." Without either an explanation of the styles or a translation of the words this doesn't really tell the reader anything.
    • I've reworded the sentence to the following: "Various styles of drumming have been transmitted within Palo, including the ritmas congos ("Congo rhythms") and influencias bantu ("Bantu influences")." While I think that this sits better in the paragraph, it perhaps does not really respond to your main point. We could remove the sentence altogether, although readers with a particular interest in ethnomusicology or drumming may find this material interesting; I suppose it possible that one day we might have articles on these particular drumming styles. Midnightblueowl (talk) 11:24, 3 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
      No, I think that's fine -- the reader has at least a tidbit of information about the styles. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 01:45, 4 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "On arriving in Cuba, many enslaved Bakongo people would have brought their traditional religions with them": suggest "Many of the enslaved Bakongo people who arrived in Cuba would have brought their traditional religions with them" - there's no connection to the moment of arrival.
  • "The histories of these objects in Cuba is unclear": number mismatch between "histories" and "is".
  • Have any estimates been made of the number of adherents, in Cuba or elsewhere?
    • Not that I've seen, unfortunately. That would be just the sort of information that I would want in the Demographics section; the situation is a little better for Santería, but generally we lack good numerical estimates for African diasporic religions. Midnightblueowl (talk) 11:13, 3 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Generally this is in great shape and I expect to support once these minor points are addressed. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 18:43, 26 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Source review

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Reliability-wise, I decided to inspect Ochoa 2010 and Espírito Santo, Diana; Kerestetzi, Katerina; Panagiotopoulos, Anastasios (2013) a bit more closely because they seem to be the most used sources here. On the former this review seems approbatory although it notes it was written by a practicioner? This one is more neutral but doesn't raise many questions about reliability. This one I can see only piecemeal. Todd Ramón Ochoa doesn't have much of a footprint but barring impersonation it seems like they have good credentials. On the latter, not much about the paper itself but the authors seem to have written a number of articles around this field. TLDR nothing that jumps out as unreliable. I notice though that of the sources, they seem to be pretty US-centric. Source formatting seems consistent and nothing jumps out to me as unsuitable, although I wonder if the few news media sources could be replaced. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 15:37, 9 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for taking a look, Jo-Jo Eumerus. The US-centrism of the sources is probably reflective of the topic in general. This is a North American religion and I've only used English-language sources; it's inevitable that most of the scholarly literature in that language is therefore going to be American. Regarding Ochoa, it is true that he is a practitioner, although that should not undermine his work as a source, given that he is also a professional anthropologist and his study has been published by a respected academic press. Scholars who are simultaneously practitioners are a common feature in religious studies (the entire field of theology comprises nothing but practitioner-scholars) and in a case like Palo, which is an initiatory tradition, an initiate/practitioner is the only person who is going to be in a position capable of collecting much of the pertinent information. Midnightblueowl (talk) 21:14, 9 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Prose review by SilverTiger

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This is a terrible, no-good idea, since I'm dealing with both depression and a hurricane headed for my city, but if I were a reasonable person I wouldn't be editing Wikipedia. So let's get this started.

  • Overall: the lede badly needs an image or sidebar of some kind. The article as a whole needs more images and stuff to relieve the dense prose.
  • A lede image would be great, but we just don't have anything appropriate over at Wikimedia Commons. There are images of ngangas circulating online, but on the whole there are not a lot given that this is a fairly closed, initiatory religion. Barring a Palo practitioner photographing their nganga or other elements of their ritual practice, the only other images we could potentially use would be some of the ritual drawings used in the religion. Perhaps we could replicate some of those for usage at the article? Do we have any editors who are good at that and willing to do it? Midnightblueowl (talk) 20:56, 9 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • What English variant is this written in? Just asking for clarity and to check for consistency.
Lede
  • It arose amid a process of syncretism between.. This is clunky wording. I suggest rephrasing, perhaps to "It originated from a syncretism of..."
  • Is there somewhere to link initiatory religion?
  • I'm not sure if there's a reasonable way to fix this, but I initially thought the creator deity was called "Nsambi or Sambia", rather than what you meant, "Nsambi, also called Sambia"

To be continued... SilverTiger12 (talk) 20:07, 9 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for taking the time to read the article, SilverTiger12. I hope the hurricane did not prove too destructive. Midnightblueowl (talk) 20:56, 9 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The hurricane has not yet arrived; thus far the only casualties are the grocery stores' shelves. As for this article, it has proved a fascinating read. SilverTiger12 (talk) 22:53, 9 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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