Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Nun bitten wir den Heiligen Geist/archive1

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was archived by David Fuchs via FACBot (talk) 12 September 2024 [1].

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Nun bitten wir den Heiligen Geist

Nominator(s): Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:33, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

This article is about a hymn, or four hymns? I have a long history with it, DYK in 2011, GA in 2017 and a peer review in 2019. Today I was invited to the 15 years society and feel like celebrating, with this hymn which - in Luther's version - has been part of family functions. I made the article my story today, and that 2011 DYK explains two hymns (... that the first stanza of the hymn "Nun bitten wir den Heiligen Geist", asking the Holy Spirit for the right faith most of all, is documented in German in the 13th century, and the later three relate to faith, love and hope?), while there are two others in Catholic tradition. Please explore. Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:33, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

Media review

• File:Nun_bitten_wir_den_Heiligen_Geist_(GL).mid: what's the copyright status of the arrangement?

• File:Berthold_von_Regensburg.jpg needs a US tag. Ditto File:Nun_bitten_wir_den_Heiligen_Geist_(WA).jpg, File:Nun_bitten_wir_den_Heiligen_Geist_(1653).jpg. Nikkimaria (talk) 13:09, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for looking! I dropped the midi files as of no good quality. Dan, can you perhaps help with the licenses for File:Berthold von Regensburg.jpg, File:Nun bitten wir den Heiligen Geist (WA).jpg and File:Nun bitten wir den Heiligen Geist (1653).jpg? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:27, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

I've added US tags for those three files. DanCherek (talk) 01:45, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

Thank you, Dan! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:38, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

Ceoil

Reading through; very interesting and aligning to the type of early modern music I prefer. Placeholder. Ceoil (talk) 20:04, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for your interest, and for copy-editing! I am not yet convinced of some changes in the lead, admitting that change is needed, just how?

• The first stanza came from a leise: no, not really. There was a leise, and it became the first stanza of all three later versions, - how can we say that better?
• I am reluctant to call a 1524 work "modern", even if it was 300 years more "modern" than the leise.
• There are three versions in today's hymnals, two from the 16th century (Luther, Vehe) and one from the 20th (Thurmair). Perhaps we need to find a way to say that at the very beginning? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:49, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

• Fine, but the fact that I was confused as to actual meaning indicates issues. As the text only has 1200 odd words, it should be easily resolved. I'll do buttleted demands from here. best, Ceoil (talk) 06:57, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

  I now tried to write a new first paragraph to outline the relation of the three versions. Please check, but perhaps first read the body to know what the lead should summarize. History: when I began the article, I only thought of Luther's hymn. I remember how surprised I was to learn that singing in German had this long a tradition, - somehow I had thought it was all in Latin until Luther came along ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:44, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

but perhaps first read the body ' agh, you've lost me now. Ceoil (talk) 19:30, 4 August 2024 (UTC)Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:50, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

Sorry, I was busy, yesterday RL, today Jürgen Ahrend. Did I say something wrong? - When I review, I look at the lead last, that's about all I wanted to say. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:50, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

Grand, will resume over weekend....Ceoil (talk) 22:48, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

Airship: prose

• Lead is rather repetitive:
  • " in German, which all share the first stanza, a 13th-century leise" // "The first stanza in all versions is a leise in German from the 13th century."
  • "wrote three additional stanzas in 1524" // "In 1524, possibly for Pentecost, he wrote three additional stanzas."
  • " Maria Luise Thurmair wrote a continuation based on this in 1972" // "Maria Luise Thurmair; her version was published in 1972"
• It also needs copyediting for prose—I have corrected a couple of minor errors, but sentences like "They also have in common that they use its medieval melody." and "The request to the Holy Spirit for the right faith especially ("um den rechten Glauben allermeist") suited Luther's theology." are stilted and/or confusing. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 19:00, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

  AirshipJungleman29, thank you for reviewing! Please see above: Ceoil pointed out that the lead lacked an overview of the versions, which was added late, and made some things repetitive. Should the first (new) paragraph be more condensed to avoid that, for example saying only that there were also Catholic expansions, or rather some details cut in what follows?

  Thank you for the corrections. I'd appreciate help with phrasing. Trying something for the melody, please check. I will have to think about the theology. I think that it's rather commonly known that Luther promoted a theology of sola fide, faith alone, - do you think it should be expanded? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:04, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

  A suggestion (I may have misinterpreted some content, so don't feel like this is a demand): ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 23:06, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

concise lead

"Nun bitten wir den Heiligen Geist" (We now implore the Holy Ghost) is the title of several hymns in German which share the first stanza, a 13th-century leise, and its medieval melody. This stanza alludes to the Latin sequence for Pentecost, Veni Sancte Spiritus (Come, Holy Spirit). Widely known, it was used as a procession song and in sacred plays. In his 1523 liturgy, the Protestant reformer Martin Luther recommended using the leise regularly in church services; it contained an appeal for the right faith which especially suited Luther's theology. In 1524, possibly for Pentecost, he wrote three additional stanzas, first published in Wittenberg in the same year as part of the Eyn geystlich Gesangk Buchleyn. His version's themes of faith, love and hope are appropriate for general occasions and funerals. not only Pentecost. Luther's chorale is sung by several Christian denominations in different languages, having received various English translations. It inspired vocal and organ music from the Renaissance to contemporary by composers such as Johann Crüger, Johann Sebastian Bach, Hugo Distler and Ernst Pepping. Alternative continuations of the hymn have appeared in Catholic hymnals. Luther's contemporary Michael Vehe, a Dominican friar and theologian, published his version, also with three added stanzas, in 1537. His hymn was revised and expanded by Maria Luise Thurmair in 1972. Both Luther's and Thurmair's hymns have remained in use into the 21st century.

Thank you for thinking about it. I woke up thinking that it would be better to present a very short overview. I did that and then took some of your good ideas on board, please check. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:10, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

Better, but the repetition between the first and last paragraph needs to be taken into account.

I understand (generally in FAs) the first para as a summary of a summary. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:24, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

See MOS:OPEN. The first paragraph should define the subject and clearly convey its significance. The rest of the lead summarizes the most important points of the article. A professional lead (FA criterion 1a) does this without duplication or repetition. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 00:51, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

(I am far from claiming professionalism.) I trimmed the lead to no repetition (but see the danger of sandwiching text when too short). --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:19, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

General comments

• I have added four {{cn}} tags to uncited material. You should look to combine short paragraphs per WP:PARAGRAPH.
• It would be useful for all readers if a translation of the verses into English were provided. The {{Verse translation}} template may be helpful. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 11:41, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

  Thank you! I'll look into the first point later. Translations: sadly, I didn't see a free translation. Bach Cantatas Website (external link) comes with a good one, but from 2015. The various hymnary pages don't offer text, possibly for the same reason. But I now found this and will use it. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:22, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

  I fixed one of the required citations. Looking for something online for Vehe's version in the Limburg hymnal (which I own), I found nothing for that fact, so may add a book ref. I found, however, interesting other sources leading to some rewrite, patience please. The short explanation of what the Vehe hymn says: call it OR, - it's my rendering in English of what it says in German, instead of a translation of that version which - I'm afraid - we will not find. I'll move the publications in other languages to translations, and add more publications of the Luther version. Before all that, there's garden work and dealing with the article of a cellist who died - my plan for today. I can ping you when I'll get to it. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 18:05, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

  (The cellist is on the Main page. Today's topic was a conductor, still far from how the article should be.) I added a ref for the 1975 Gotteslob, and modified to Vehe being the editor of the hymnal, not necessarily the author. As for what that version means in English: would it help if I'd write individual phrases in German with their translation, as for Thurmair's? For hers that seemed necessary because the English is under copyright (but can be seen in the "Fischer F" ref). - Too tired to search for more publications and translations. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:19, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

  Airship, by now I managed to use Fischer (encyclopedia of hymns) more. I also think I found a better way of referring to it, listing its subpages as pages instead of new references. It led to more versions, and a complete rearrangement of the article structure: trying to avoid level-four headers, I dropped the distinction of Text and Music and then subdivided, changing to one of Leise - Protestant - Catholic, putting all music and translations under Protestant, because I noticed those only for the Luther version. I hope to expand the translation corner which is still short. I found a general ref for many appearances in songbooks and hymnals and wonder if I should mention some of those. What do you think. Do you know the verse template enough to find a way to avoid the excessive white space that comes with it - the more stanzas the more it seems? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:46, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

MyCat

I'll gladly review; however, know that my liturgical knowledge is very limited, so much of my review will just be about the prose rather than comprehensiveness. I'll review once Airship's comments are resolved, so I don't say anything they already said. MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) (also not me) (still no) 13:40, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

Comments from TechnoSquirrel69

Saving a spot for later; I'm working on a source review. —TechnoSquirrel69 (sigh) 01:16, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for the source eview. I havae a busy weekend with company and concert, so just brief replies at the moment, and no major changes to the references right now. When I wrote the article, I had access to the volume of Liederkunde written by Hahn, similar to this one but can't find it any more. Help welcome. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:39, 24 August 2024 (UTC)

Source review

Citation numbers from this revision.

• In the interest of consistency, convert the references styled liked citation 34 to full citations in the reference list with short footnotes pointing at them.
• I would recommend adding archive links to all web sources.
• Adding translated titles using the |trans-title= parameter would be preferable, but all non-English citations must use the |language= parameter.
• There needs to be consistency for where the page numbers are located. Some sources confusingly have pages in both the short footnotes and the full citations. Recommend moving them all to the footnotes.
• The books should all have publication locations or none of them, for consistency.
• Citation 25 needs a page number or section title provided using the |loc= parameter.
• What makes Fischer 2007 a high-quality reliable source? (I was unable to track down the author due to their extremely common name, unfortunately!)

  It's a research project of the University of Freiburg, Fischer is one of the co-editors. --GA

• In Becker 2022: Switch to {{cite journal}}. Oldenburg University → University of Oldenburg Press. I'm not a fan of the PDF download URL, I would recommend removing. Add |doi=10.25619/BmE_H20224 in any case.
• Recommend removing the URL from Hahn 2000 as Google Books does not actually provide access to that source.
• Kluge 1975 needs a bunch of formatting improvements but, more importantly, it appears to be a dictionary and not a secondary source. Does it actually verify anything in that sentence other than the meanings of the words? Does the inclusion of that information constitute due weight?
• I'm rather confused by Korth 2004, which has the same ISBN and URL as Hahn 2000 but seems to be a different publication?
• In Randel 1996: link Harvard University Press.

I appreciate your patience with my review, Gerda! Still going through at the moment and might be back with a few more comments later. —TechnoSquirrel69 (sigh) 15:42, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

Comments from The ed17

Hello Gerda, and I apologize for the number of the below comments seeing as you invited me to comment. I've gotten through the first part of the article, and unfortunately I found it quite difficult to parse and understand. Some time could be spent simplifying the information we're telling readers, as well as reducing the number of translated words to make is less complicated to read.

• First of all (allermeist) thank you for copy-editing. As said, this is an "old" article, deals with historic events, in two languages different from English, - great to have feedback from a native speaker! Thank you also for the time to go into details. I reverted two things (of the many) and hope the edit summaries were clear. --GA

• Overall question: Why is {{langr}} used so often? The typical {{lang}} sets off translated text in italics so it's easier for a reader to parse.

  I recently was introduced to it, and found it a blessing to use instead of saying "italic=no" each time. I was trained that things separated by quotation marks and coming with the lang template don't need italics also. Incipits of hymn, common Latin phrases that became part of English, - such things. --GA

  Frankly, I don't think I read a single Latin phrase in the upper part of the article that I'd consider "common". :-p I'd recommend using italics to ease a reader's understanding for anything except when it's something like a song title, which then get those quotation marks. Ed ^{[talk] [OMT]} 03:21, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

• "retaining its text as a first stanza": do you mean "retained the first stanza"?

  No. There was no first stanza, there was the leise. He used its text completely, making it the first of four stanzas. How would you word it? --GA

  Got it. I tried making an edit to make that clear. Ed ^{[talk] [OMT]} 03:21, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

• "using melodies derived from its medieval tune": what medieval tune? That isn't previously mentioned.

  We are still in the lead, and to devote a sentence to the tune seems to be undue weight. I was encouraged to trim the lead (further up). --GA

  I get the desire to keep the lead short, but it also needs to be understandable, and I don't understand what "medieval tune" we're referring to. Ed ^{[talk] [OMT]} 03:21, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

• Additional context around the Protestant/Catholic split may be needed. Otherwise, a reader will not understand the importance of Martin Luther's using it.

  I am not sure, for the same reason - keep it concise. We have a good article about the Reformation, and what of it should be summarised, and how? Would you think of a background section?

  This could be as short as "when Protestants split from Catholicism" or similar! Ed ^{[talk] [OMT]} 03:21, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

• What is a "a song for the dying"? Was it used in funerals?

  The German term is "Sterbelied" which implies that it is sung with someone dying. The term appears almost 70 times in the German Wikipedia but has no article. It's also used for poems written by a poet who was approaching death (Hildebrand's Sterbelied), an example for a Sterbelied is "O Welt, ich muss dich lassen". I never heard of a similar thing in English. Help? --GA

  Got it. I added a suggested rewording to the article. Ed ^{[talk] [OMT]} 03:21, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

• What's a procession song?

  a song sung during a procession --GA

• "The leise contained an appeal for the right faith which especially suited Luther's theology ...": what's the "right faith"?

  depends for whom as the different versions show ;) --GA

  I'm afraid I still don't get it. Was the 'right faith' Protestantism"? A certain form of that? A generic call to follow the 'right faith' that Luther could then define for his listeners? :-) Ed ^{[talk] [OMT]} 03:21, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

• The lead may benefit from a straight divide between Protestant and Catholic usage. Weaving the two together makes for a somewhat whiplash-y experience.

  sorry, that word is new to me ;) - When I wrote the article - see infobox - I wanted to write about Luther's song, in an attempt to have articles about his hymns (in 2017 I believe, when 500 years of Reformation were remembered). Only later did I realise that the other versions should perhaps also be mentioned. --GA

  Sorry! I just mean that it goes back and forth, while instead you could mention the Christian schism and then individually go through its usage in each sect after that. Ed ^{[talk] [OMT]} 03:21, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

• "Catholic use was discontinued after the Baroque period, but the hymn reappeared in a modified version in Heinrich Bone's Cantate! hymnal in 1647. It became used more after the 1938 collection Kirchenlied ...": several points here.
  • Most people, including me, do not know offhand when the Baroque period started and began. Can we use a year or even a rough decade instead?
  • I see from our article that the Baroque period ended in 1750, but despite being discontinued by then it appeared in a hymnal in 1647? That's confusing.

    I apologize for a severe typo in that number which I corrected to 1847 as the body has. - When the Baroque period ended depends on who looks at what, so I'd try to avoid one year. Yes in music it's probably with Bach's death in 1750. --GA

    Could we put a rough decade on it? E.g. "... discontinued after the Baroque period (roughly the 1750s) ..." ? And I think you may have forgotten to fix the 1647 year in the lead. :-) Ed ^{[talk] [OMT]} 03:21, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

  • If it was discontinued, it wasn't later "used more" -- it was "used again".

    Sorry that I didn't find a way to say what I wanted. It appeared in 1847, but it wasn't used much (if at all, we don't know). It appeared in 1938, and was used - how much we still don't know. It was used more later, and from personal experience I'd say: still not much. People love and sing "Der Geist des Herrn erfüllt das All" by the same Ms. Thurmair, even Protestants. That has become e song suitable for ecumenical service. Where I live we have had one every year on Pentecost Monday for the decades I live there, and we had Luther's version only once (and people not knowing it complained about its "old" language, and Thurmair's version also only once, and I achieved that the last (counter-reformation) stanza wasn't sung ;)
    I need a break, RL, more later today. --GA

    Not a major point, so we can drop this. Ed ^{[talk] [OMT]} 03:21, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

• "Luther's chorale is sung by several Christian denominations in different languages ...": should this sentence begin with something like "In the modern day, ..." ?

  Doesn't the present tense imply that? (I was trained to avoid "currently", "today", "modern times" ... --GA

  True, that's MOS:CURRENTLY. Maybe "As of the 2020s"? The present tense does imply the shift to today, but I'm afraid it's too subtle for many to pick up on. Ed ^{[talk] [OMT]} 03:21, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

• "It has inspired vocal and organ music from the Renaissance to contemporary by composers such as Johann Crüger, Johann Sebastian Bach, Hugo Distler and Ernst Pepping.": We can simplify this sentence by saying "from the 14th century into the present day", and removing the unnecessary bluelinks to our general articles on Renaissance music and Contemporary classical music that don't immediately benefit readers.

  We could but specific names give more an idea of what kind of composers would use it, without long explanation. --GA

  I think general readers won't know who those composers are, and this is the lead, so I'd recommend shortening. In the end, it's your call. Ed ^{[talk] [OMT]} 03:21, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

• "It was first a Sterbelied, a song for someone dying.": The translation could be removed to make reading this simpler.

  You think readers would remember? --GA

  I think readers don't need to know the translation. :-) Ed ^{[talk] [OMT]} 03:21, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

• "As in the conclusion of Veni Sancte Spiritus ("da salutis exitum") ...: The translation could be removed to make reading this simpler.
• "The concern is "most of all" (allermeist) the "right faith" (rechten glouben) ...: Like the lead, what does the "right faith" mean?

  replied there --GA

• "The person praying is aware that human life is transient and believes that the true home is Heaven ...": What does "true home" mean in this context?

  The German word that I tried to translate is "Heimat" which doesn't have an exact translation. What would you suggest. "heimfahrn aus diesem Elende" means "return home from this exile", not easier by modern-day Elend meaning misery. Help welcome - this is talking theology, so difficult. --GA

  And I'm not particularly familiar with theology, so I'm struggling too. How about "... human life is transient and believes that they will find eternal life in Heaven, ..." Ed ^{[talk] [OMT]} 03:21, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

• "Protestant Reformers tried to continue medieval tradition": Does this refer to medieval Catholic traditions or something else?

  This was added late for the context that Luther, like other reformers, had no intention to throw traditions over board, almost the opposite. I simply took it from a source. The word "Catholic" had a different meaning after the Reformation resulted in different denominations. --GA

  Gotcha. How about a couple sentences like this, assuming it's covered by the source: "Although Protestants were seeking significant liturgical changes within the Catholic Church, they did not seek to overturn most religious traditions. For example, when Martin Luther issued a 1523 liturgy for services, he recommended including three traditional German hymns: "Gott sei gelobet und gebenedeiet" ... etc. etc. " Ed ^{[talk] [OMT]} 03:21, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

• "Nun bitten wir den Heiligen Geist" and "Christ ist erstanden" (Christ is risen) are the only medieval songs still in use.": in use by who?

  sung in "modern day" services, - or what would you think "use" means? Again, I took that from a source. --GA

  Sorry for the ambiguity. I mean by which religion, and if possible by what kinds of congregations (w.g. traditional ones?) in what geographical areas. Ed ^{[talk] [OMT]} 03:21, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

• "The leise had a long tradition.": I suspect this should say "Nun bitten wir den Heiligen Geist" vs. "the leise" to specify we're talking about a specific leise, and not them generally.

  We would still have to add "the leise" to not be ambiguous, and teach me English: could "the song had a long tradition" mean "songs" in general? --GA

  I re-read this and think I missed why this actually sounded off to me. I'd still use the full name, but because it wouldn distinguish which one you're talking about from the three things you listed in the previous sentence. Ed ^{[talk] [OMT]} 03:21, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

• "Its topics of the right faith (rechter Glaube, veram fide) and the thought of the time of death must have appealed to Luther. He had mentioned veram fide in an early sermon about the leise (1509 or 1510), and promoted salvation by faith alone (sola fide)":
  • There's no need to translate "right faith" again, and "veram fide" should just be "right faith".

    "veram fide" would literally mean "true faith".

  • We can remove "sola fide" and just link "faith alone".

    We can, but would loose a short illustration of how much Luther relied on medieval Latin tradition. --GA

    It's your call in the end, although I'd argue that it's far too subtle to convey the point you're trying to make. I certainly missed it. Ed ^{[talk] [OMT]} 03:21, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

• "... as "Du wertes Licht" (You esteemed light), "Du süße Lieb" (You sweet love) and "Du höchster Tröster" (You highest comforter).: these translations don't line up with the translations given in the full translation above it.

  No, and if they did, they didn't have to be there. The translation given next to the poem is a singable English version, which means that aspects of rhyme and number of syllables have prominence over literal meaning. --GA

  • As always, it's your call whether to act on these comments. But as a general reader coming in with no background on this material, I was expecting the translations to line up and was confused when they didn't. E.g. "Thou precious Light" does not sound like the same thing as "You esteemed light" :-) Ed ^{[talk] [OMT]} 03:21, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

• If you are going to shorten the name of the leise to "Nun bitten wir", I would prefer that you start doing that in the lead to prepare readers

  I guess I'd then rather have the full name consistently. --GA

• "... which mention its manifold gifts ...": what are manifold gifts? I suspect this sentence clause could be dropped without impact on readers.

  I gave it a link to Seven gifts of the Holy Spirit. --GA

• "His three stanzas can be seen as related to "Glaube, Liebe, Hoffnung", the theological virtues of faith, love and hope, which Paul the Apostle expressed in his letter, 1 Corinthians 13:13.": We can simplify this sentence, and "can be seen" needs in-text attribution. E.g. "Historian Michael Fischer has said that his three stanzas relate to the theological virtues of faith, love and hope."

  I suspect this is not one historian's view ;) - I see the same, and would you not? (It was even the DYK fact, DYK? ... which was years before I even looked at the Fischer source.) I can check if others see the same, but not today. --GA

  Ideally then, we'd add citations to those additional similar views. The passive voice the sentence currently uses implies that there is more than one. :-) Ed ^{[talk] [OMT]} 03:21, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

• That makes it to the beginning of the "Publication" section. I'll try to return and look through the rest of the article, but for the moment I hope this gives you some ideas on how to improve the article. Ed ^{[talk] [OMT]} 04:58, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

  Thank you, and I like the discussion, - thank you for taking the time. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:00, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

  Thank you for replies, read and mostly understood, but I have some things on my mind with more urgency (translate an article of a person who died, do a peer review as promised last week ...). I'll reply when I get some time of rest. It may be archived by then, but will help the article in the long run, transforming it from simply about one song to something like the development of congregational singing in different denominations over centuries ;) - I fixed that year, sorry to have overlooked it. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:06, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

Coordinator comment

This has been open for three weeks and we currently don't have a single support for promotion. Unless this changes within the next few days, I'm afraid this is at the risk of archival. I recommend that you ping the above two users who expressed an interest in reviewing this later. 11:04, 23 August 2024 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by FrB.TG (talk • contribs)

Don't be afraid, just archive. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:35, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

SN 54129

• Suggest dropping the second 'German' from the lead sentence: it's clear what the language is from the first usage.

  Thank you for your comments! - This one: I'm not sure I understand. In the second sentence, if I drop it, we'd say "one of the oldest hymns" which would be wrong, - there were much older ones, in Latin and other languages. --GA

• "...several Christian denominations in different languages, having received various English translations": better to mention some of the different languages ("such as..."). and then something like "as well as receiving various translations into English".

  I'm not sure that mentioning Danish and Spanish (for examples) would make much difference, other than a more complex sentence. --GA

• In the Luther 1524 section you abbreviate the piece to ""Nun bitten wir". This is good, as the title is a bit of a mouthful and interrupts the flow a little. But suggest you abbreviate it sooner, after the first full usage in the lead.

  One of the reviewers above thought that it was not good ;) - It's not much left of the meaning in the short version. --GA

• "It was first a Sterbelied": is that as in, "It was originally a Sterbelied..."?

  Sounds good. With English not my first (or original?) language, such nuances often escape me. Why would I use four syllables when I can use one? --GA

• Perhaps quote the line from S Paul in full.

  You mean: "For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ"? In that KJV English? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:37, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

• "from the chant of the sequence": suggest "from the sequence's chant".

  taken, thank you --GA

• Link Processional (song).

  used Processional hymn (the other is a redirect) --GA

• "the only medieval songs still in use": In wot? Churches, public performances, processions?

  Does it matter? Churches then. - In performances, your hear a lot of historic stuff, - but I thought that "use" means something regular or common. --GA

• "The leise had a long tradition": Surely, that's been pretty much established by this point in the article.

  While that is true, the point is that it was something positive for Luther, who wasn't someone who wanted everything new and different. Help how to express that welcome ;) --GA

• "Protestant Reformers tried to continue the medieval tradition": tried here implies "attempted unsuccessfully", whereas it would seem to have been successfully continued—particularly if it's still being played today? Suggest "Protestant Reformers continued..."

  Which better word/phrase would you suggest, related to the previous response? --GA

• The line "Luther expanded "Nun bitten wir" by three stanzas, addressing the Holy Spirit three more times..." duplicates the last line of the Protestant expansion section ("Luther expanded the leise "Nun bitten wir den Heiligen Geist" by three stanzas, addressing the Holy Spirit three more times."); can these be merged?

  I shortened the second time. --GA

• "The focus is on the aspects": link to Aspect (religion); (also per Hamlet, of course, "That from her working all his visage wanned/Tears in his eyes, distraction in his aspect", or Byron's 'She walks in Beauty', "And all that’s best of dark and bright/Meet in her aspect and her eyes", or even Dennis Wheatley from The Devil Rides Out, "Our Lord... in his aspect as the Redeemer"), unlike the following two times you use the word in its usual, non-theological capacity.

  Thank you, I didn't even know that meaning, let alone the article. - Having read it, I'm not sure that it helps to clarity ;) --GA

• As a technical term, link Metre (music).

  done --GA

• Have you fielded queries re. SATBB and SSAATB at your previous FAs? If so, apologies for retreading old ground. But no one knows what this means. Link—and preferably gloss, using em dashes, footnotes or parentheticals of your choice—to SATB.

  Sorry, I just forgot that it was never linked. I also put it in brackets trying to indicate that it's necessary for the meaning. --GA

• "The Catholics": sounds slightly... perhaps "the Catholic Church", as it was not so much the personal choice of an individual Catholic as a new policy directed from Trent. In a similar vein, suggest adopted 9or your choice" instead of "countered" which, in a certain light, might be seen to imply a lack of agency from the CC and that it was purely reactive in nature. In fact, it's probably worth mentioning [[counter-reformation][] somewhere here so it's clear that the hymn's early modern context is a European-wide distancing from old ideas.

  I don't know enough if it was an official "countering" of the Catholic Church, or individual efforts. I had a link to Counter-Reformation in place until I noticed that Vehe's hymnal was before the dating of the movement. --GA

• Do we know why Thurmair "completely ignored" the hymn's treatment of death in 1975? Was it personal? A reflection of the times perhaps? (E.g., I note the Red Army Faction had severely upped its campaign that year.)

  I don't know, wish I did. - You may have noticed that I had a few other topics that kept me busy (Alexander Goehr where a massive rewrite was needed, then BWV 78 because of a time wish.), - there was one source talking about the meetings in preparation of the 1975 hymnal, which took years. I can look at that again, but not soon. --GA

• Nice work, Gerda, considering I have no known taste in music at all  :) SerialNumber54129 12:38, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

  Thank you for interesting aspects! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:37, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

• Closing note: This candidate has been archived, but there may be a delay in bot processing of the close. Please see WP:FAC/ar, and leave the {{featured article candidates}} template in place on the talk page until the bot goes through. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ^talk 18:53, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

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