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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ian Rose via FACBot (talk) 13:07, 16 August 2017 [1].

Louise Bryant

[edit]
Nominator(s): Finetooth (talk) 02:21, 17 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about Louise Bryant, an early 20th-century journalist, feminist, and political activist, who with her second husband John Reed reported on the Russian Revolution from Moscow. In the movie Reds, Diane Keaton plays the fictionalized role of Bryant during her life with Reed. After Reed's death in 1920, Bryant covered events in Russia, Central Asia, Europe, and the Middle East and interviewed such notables as Mustafa Kemal Atatürk and Benito Mussolini for the Hearst newspaper chain. Her life included a childhood in rural Nevada, a rise to fame in mid-life, and a bleak ending after the collapse of her career, her health, and her third marriage. Finetooth (talk) 02:21, 17 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

  • Quite right. I removed the anarchist category and the two Communist categories since, unlike Reed, she did not became a Communist party member. "Marxist feminist" seems more accurate. Finetooth (talk) 22:18, 18 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Hawkeye7

[edit]
Lead
  • "Bryant, a feminist, married in 1916 to the more famous writer John Reed". I really don't like this at all. I suggest changing the WP:BEGINNING to "Louise Bryant (December 5, 1885 – January 6, 1936) was an American feminist, political activist, and journalist best known for..." (Note links)
Done. Finetooth (talk) 01:51, 24 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Couldn't we just state that she married John Reed in 1916?
Done. Finetooth (talk) 01:51, 24 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • And leave out the "more famous"? His article, after all, is only C class. (WP:PEACOCK)
Done. Finetooth (talk) 01:51, 24 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Link "Bolshevik"
Done. Finetooth (talk) 01:51, 24 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks. I had put this one off for the very reason you mention. The details of the intervention were something I needed to study before attempting to change the wording. Your solution looks good to me. Finetooth (talk) 22:27, 24 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • "A rare and painful disorder" Let the reader know what it is. (MOS:DONTTEASE)
Done. Finetooth (talk) 01:51, 24 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • "10 years" -> "ten years"
Done. Finetooth (talk) 01:51, 24 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • "worked to restore it" -> "restored it"
Done. Finetooth (talk) 01:51, 24 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • There is no need for the footnotes in the infobox; consider removing them
Moved to main text. Finetooth (talk) 19:39, 24 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Early life, Portland, Greenwich Village and Cape Cod
  • Did she legally change her surname to Bryant?
Gelb says she did not. Added this info. Finetooth (talk) 15:08, 25 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Not sure. Dearborn says that "the Mohan children had taken their stepfather's name...". However, when she married Reed, she gave her name as Ann Louise Mohan, according to Gardner. I will keep looking. Finetooth (talk) 22:56, 24 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Linked. Finetooth (talk) 15:59, 24 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • "which became the University of Nevada, Reno" In 1969. But it became the University of Nevada in 1906, while she was there. Suggest "(which became the University of Nevada in 1906)"
True, but that interim name is less important than the name by which people now recognize it. The University of Nevada system now has a campus in Las Vegas. Changed to "and college at Nevada State University (now known as the University of Nevada, Reno)" Finetooth (talk) 15:59, 24 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
That's fine. No confusion there. Hawkeye7 (talk) 22:12, 24 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Linked. Finetooth (talk) 16:08, 24 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Should "comaraderie" be "camaraderie"?
Good catch. My mistake, not Gelb's. Fixed. Finetooth (talk) 16:08, 24 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Consider moving John Reed's image to the right. (Hmmm that sounds really odd...)
Moved. Finetooth (talk) 16:08, 24 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Linked. Finetooth (talk) 16:16, 24 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Linked. Finetooth (talk) 16:16, 24 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Croton-on-Hudson, Petrograd, New York
  • "Reed married her before leaving for surgery" Any idea exactly how, where or when?
Yes. Peekskill county clerk's office on November 9, 1916. Added. Finetooth (talk) 20:01, 24 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The man. He hung out with him in 1913–14, before the expedition. I added the dates. Finetooth (talk) 21:22, 24 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Link "czar"
Linked. Finetooth (talk) 16:59, 24 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • "(the historic names of which also include Saint Petersburg and Leningrad)" Actually (1) that's the lot and (2) why are we using italics? It was formerly Saint Petersburg, and layter became Leningrad (and then Saint Petersburg again.) I'd drop the whole parenthetical phrase, but get rid of the italics at least.
Dropped the whole parenthetical. Finetooth (talk) 16:59, 24 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • "General Kornilov" -> "Major General Lvar Kornilov". (MOS:FULLNAME)
Added full name. Finetooth (talk) 16:59, 24 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • "huskings" "A meeting of neighbours or friends to assist in husking maize." What?
Ha, ha. The error this time was in the Gardner text, which I quoted correctly but mistook huskings for hustings. Fixed by rewriting to eliminate the need for a [sic], a link, or an explanation. Finetooth (talk) 16:59, 24 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • "during which she was arrested and jailed for three days" For any particular reason? (I realise that in the US you can be arrested without charge)
Interesting question. I added a fair bit about the burning of Wilson in effigy, a hunger strike, and the charges, including "attempting to make disorderly speeches." Gasp! Finetooth (talk) 22:23, 24 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Sounds like the Sedition Act of 1918 Hawkeye7 (talk) 21:35, 25 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Consider moving note 2 into the text
Moved. Finetooth (talk) 17:18, 24 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Further reporting
Linked. Finetooth (talk) 17:23, 24 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Linked. Finetooth (talk) 17:23, 24 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • "(As quoted from the New York American, January 28, 1923, section 52, p. 1)' Move that into the footnote
Moved. Finetooth (talk) 18:42, 24 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Link Constantinople (Why is this the only city where you don't mention its more common name?)
Linked. Since I removed the other names for Petrograd, I thought I'd leave this one alone as well. Finetooth (talk) 18:42, 24 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Turkish strongman". Ataturk is a national hero, and calling him a "strongman" violates WP:NPOV
Repaired. Added that he was the first president of the Republic of Turkey. Finetooth (talk) 19:34, 24 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Bryant gave birth to her only child, Anne, in February 1924" Link Anne Moen Bullitt, give her full name, and you can give her full date of birth as WP:BLP doesn't apply because she's dead.
Linked. Moved the supporting citation from the infobox to here. Made more clear that the birth came two months after the marriage. I don't think the exact day of the month is important enough to include. Finetooth (talk) 19:34, 24 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
That's fine. I tend to use exact dates whenever possible, to help out people trying to paraphrase me. This comes from years of having to work with the Australian Dictionary of Biography which is frequently necessarily vague. No problem here though. Hawkeye7 (talk) 22:29, 24 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • "she was involved in a lesbian relationship with Gwen Le Gallienne". In view of this, should the article be tagged under WP:WikiProject LGBT studies?
Good idea. Done. Finetooth (talk) 19:39, 24 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
External links
  • Remove this section heading. MOS:LAYOUT: Do not make a section whose sole content is box-type templates.
Removed. Finetooth (talk) 19:42, 24 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

All looks pretty good. Hawkeye7 (talk) 00:50, 24 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for your insightful and helpful review and for your support. This morning I found and inserted the answer to the legal name-change question. Finetooth (talk) 15:08, 25 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Image review
The Underwood-PD tag covers that, I think. It says, "Images submitted for copyright by Underwood & Underwood are in the public domain in the United States due to expiration or lack of renewal." Finetooth (talk) 15:20, 25 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you. A need for a tag there had not crossed my mind. Finetooth (talk) 15:20, 25 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
All good. Hawkeye7 (talk) 00:49, 25 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Source review from Ealdgyth

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  • I randomly googled three sentences and nothing showed up except mirrors. Earwig's tool shows a couple of spots where the prose is probably a little close and could be tweaked a bit.
Otherwise everything looks good. Ealdgyth - Talk 14:45, 26 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Sarastro1

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Recusing on this one as it's too interesting to miss out on! Looking good, having read to the end of the Greenwich Village section. Just a few nit-picks so far. Sarastro1 (talk) 22:58, 30 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

  • "she became society editor of the Portland, Oregon, Spectator": This is a little awkward, although correct. Could be rephrase this to avoid the comma overload?
Rephrased. Finetooth (talk) 00:07, 3 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The 1981 film Reds tells the story of Bryant's time with Reed.": I'm not sure we need this in the lead, but if we do I'm not sure it's best placed where it is, discussing 1920.
Removed from the lead. Finetooth (talk) 00:07, 3 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Socially popular": Do we need to specify socially?
Removed "socially." Finetooth (talk) 00:07, 3 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • "and wore clothes considered by some to be "flashy"" Considered by who? As written, this could refer to her boyfriends.
Good question. According to Gardner, it was the Oregon Monthly editor as well as the dean of women at the university. I added this info and links to articles about the editor and the dean. Finetooth (talk) 01:46, 3 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Seeking employment, she landed a temporary job designing a stained-glass window for the Povey Brothers,[11] did some freelance reporting for The Oregonian,[12] and found work as an illustrator and society editor for the Portland Spectator.": There's something about this sentence that doesn't quite work for me; do we need "seeking employment" at all? Or do we change it to say "Needing to find employment because..."? I'm not too keen on "landed" and "did" is a little lacking in elegance; could we not rephrase this as "among her jobs, she designed a stained-glass window for the Povey Brothers, worked as a freelance reporter for The Oregonian and became an illustrator and society editor for the Portland Spectator." Or maybe it's just me...!
Rephrased using your suggestion. Finetooth (talk) 00:16, 3 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • In any case, can we say more about the Spectator? It might be useful to know what kind of publication it was.
Added that it was a local magazine. Added RS in support of this addition. Finetooth (talk) 01:59, 3 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • "she met and married Paul Trullinger, a handsome dentist": Is his attractiveness important?
Removed "handsome". Finetooth (talk) 00:16, 3 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • "...and enjoyed uninhibited parties": I've got to ask... uninhibited how?
I took a stab at fleshing this out. The drinking and ether-inhaling are specific examples. He was mildly rebellious for a while. Finetooth (talk) 03:49, 3 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • "as part of what Max Eastman, editor of The Masses, called a "gypsy compact"": When did he say this, and in what context? Also, what did he mean by a "gypsy compact"? Sarastro1 (talk) 22:58, 30 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
He said it on page 213 of his book Heroes I Have Known (1942). Dearborn uses "gypsy compact" as the title of one of her book sections and attributes it to Eastman, whom she quotes at length. Eastman says in part, "[Reed's] companionship with Louise Bryant was based on a joint determination to smash through the hulls of custom and tradition and all polite and proper forms of behavior, and touch at all times and all over the earth the raw current of life. It was a companionship in what philistines call adventure, a kind of gypsy compact." Eastman and Dearborn were being poetic, I think, and the "gypsy compact" analogy is unnecessary. I removed it but left the rest of the sentence intact. Finetooth (talk) 04:24, 3 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thanks for taking the time to review this. I know you are busy. I'm traveling and stuck with a bad internet connection. I'll work on these suggestions and any others that you or others may have when I get home in about three days. Cheers. Finetooth (talk) 14:37, 31 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
No worries. Finetooth (talk) 18:48, 5 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

More: I made a few minor copy-edits, and after a few questions, I'll be delighted to support. Sorry for the delay, a very interesting woman and a good read. Sarastro1 (talk) 11:47, 8 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

  • "where Villagers including Eastman": Any reason why we are capitalising villagers here?
Yes. It's short for Greenwich Villagers. I used Villagers here and in other places in the article to distinguish them from generic villagers. Finetooth (talk) 17:02, 8 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • "When he returned from Baltimore in mid-December, the couple retreated full-time to Croton-on-Hudson to recuperate and to focus on writing": While it's pretty obvious that this refers to Bryant and Reed, the last sentence refers to "Bryant's ongoing relationship with O'Neill", this may cause a little confusion.
Quite right. Changed to Reed and Bryant. Finetooth (talk) 17:02, 8 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • "After securing press credentials for Bryant, Reed moved to the Harvard Club, and Bryant, setting sail in June, went to France to cover the war for the Bell Syndicate": The number of "Bryant and Reed"s in this section is a little tricky. I'm wondering could this be reworded to flow a little better, something like: "Reed secured press credentials for Bryant and moved to the Harvard Club; she set sail for France in June to cover the war for the Bell Syndicate"
Reworded using your suggestion. Finetooth (talk) 17:07, 8 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Also, as they had been struggling financially, and he was something of a persona non grata, how was he able to get her work for the Bell Syndicate?
Good question. I'm hunting for an answer. Will reply again when I find one. Finetooth (talk) 22:45, 8 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Added some new material about this, including a paragraph about what Bryant did in Europe on this initial trip. It's not clear who paid for the voyage or what exactly Bryant's financial arrangement was with Wheeler. The press pass would have cost nothing. Finetooth (talk) 03:34, 9 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • "they arrived in the Russian capital city (then Petrograd, later Moscow)": As written, this looks like the city's name changed from Petrograd to Moscow rather than the capital city changed location.
I recast, dropping the mention of Moscow altogether. Finetooth (talk) 17:18, 8 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Can we attribute the long Gardner quotes in text? And maybe say at this point who Gardner is, rather than later.
Attributed Gardner in text for the two blockquotes and said who she is on first mention. Finetooth (talk) 17:33, 8 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • "for conspiracy to obstruct the draft": Can we clarify this a little; obstruct how? Which draft?
Added material about the specific charges; linked to an article about conscription in the United States. Please let me know if this is still not clear. Finetooth (talk) 18:49, 8 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Can we say a little more about Bullit? He just appears at the moment, then marries her. Who was he? If there isn't much to say except it's a bit of a mystery why they married, would it make sense to move the quote from the next section from "Louise Bryant grows old"? Sarastro1 (talk) 11:47, 8 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I can add more about Bullit. It may take me until tomorrow to decide what to add about him and also to address the Bell Syndicate question. Finetooth (talk) 22:45, 8 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I've added some new material about the Bell Syndicate, including Gelb's statement that Reed paid for Bryant's ship passage. On the other hand, I'm not finding anything interesting to add about Bullitt. He was the richest of Bryant's list of lovers but not the most famous and not the last. Finetooth (talk) 18:40, 9 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I think the Stansell quote is best left where it is to maintain the chronological sequence of events. I'm not sure where you are proposing to move it, so my reply here might not make perfect sense. Finetooth (talk) 18:47, 9 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
That's fine with me, whatever you think best. Sarastro1 (talk) 22:05, 9 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Support: A very interesting article, very nicely put together. Sarastro1 (talk) 22:05, 9 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

  • Thank you for your kind words and support and for your insightful review. Despite my earlier reluctance, I have now added more about Bullitt. I was concerned about adding too many details about anybody but Bryant, but the more I thought about it, the more it seemed to me that you were right. Finetooth (talk) 01:55, 10 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Comments and support from Gerda

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Looking forward to reading!

Lead

  • I like a lot, but not "1918. In 1919". If so close, it could be "a year later", - or less close?
Moved to make less close. Finetooth (talk) 15:48, 15 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Leaving her first husband in 1915 to follow Reed" comes a bit as a surprise ;)
Yes. Her husband was not entirely happy about this. Finetooth (talk) 15:48, 15 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Oh. I see what you mean by "surprise". I added "her second husband" after the first mention of Reed in the lead. Finetooth (talk) 15:53, 15 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • jail and lovers make for another surprise, the lovers sentence needs some punctuation.
Split the sentence with a terminal period instead of a semicolon. Finetooth (talk) 15:48, 15 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • After having read the lead, I don't know where the name Bryant comes from, and if it should be used when speaking about the divorce, and her death.
I've tried to clarify by adding "As a young girl, Bryant, born Anna Louise Mohan, began using the last name of her stepfather, Sheridan Bryant, instead of her father's name" to the second paragraph of the lead. I have not been able to find what exactly the divorce papers called her, but she retained "Louise Bryant" as her professional name even after her marriage to Bullitt, and that is the name she is best known by. She was described in newspaper obituaries as Louise Bryant. Finetooth (talk) 16:39, 15 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Once introduced, I think it's fine to use the name Bryant throughout. What do think of this: "Born Anna Louise Mohan, she began as a young girl using the last name of her stepfather, Sheridan Bryant, instead of her father's name."? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:45, 15 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Yes. Yours is better; mine had too many things set off in commas. I tweaked yours just a little to read: "Born Anna Louise Mohan, as a young girl she began using the last name of her stepfather, Sheridan Bryant, instead of her father's name." Finetooth (talk) 16:58, 15 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Early ...

  • "The new marriage produced two children", - not my favourite wording ;)
Changed to "The couple had two children...". Finetooth (talk) 16:53, 15 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Depressed after the death of Say" - I had to search who Say was.
Changed to "stepfather". Finetooth (talk) 16:53, 15 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
But Say was the step-grandfather? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 17:04, 15 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Ow, yow! Yes. Thank you. Fixed. Finetooth (talk) 17:48, 15 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Link Southern Pacific?
Linked. Finetooth (talk) 17:04, 15 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • "of which she was the first president", - perhaps: "and served as its first president"?
Used your wording. Finetooth (talk) 17:04, 15 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Portland

  • "That spring", - better serve someone who jumps to the section by TOC, and repeat which spring.
Good point. Added the specific year, 1909.

Greenwich ...

  • italics for staged works? Perhaps say just "O'Neill", as a reminder that he was mentioned (and linked) before?
Added italics to the three play names. I'm reluctant to shorten and unlink O'Neill since he is not linked before this in the main text, only in the lead. Finetooth (talk) 17:20, 15 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I mean the mentioning with the plays, which is the second under the same header, not linked, but with given name. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 17:44, 15 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Yes. Fixed. Finetooth (talk) 17:50, 15 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Petrograd

  • I think the image comes too early.
I don't know what else to do with it. Her image on my screen is directly across from mention of her in the text. I understand the desire to place an image as close as possible to its subject's mention in the text, but sometimes I think layout considerations are more important. For example, I don't really object to moving the sorority image down a bit as you did in the "Early life" section, but on my screen it displaces the "Portland" head. I've been advised by other editors not to displace heads with images; the problem is that now that we have entered the age of handheld screens, I don't know what everything looks like to everybody else or even if a general layout solution is possible. Finetooth (talk) 17:31, 15 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
In my smaller screen, the "Portland" header is not displaced, but you are probably right about the many, - how about moving that early image up again, but right? I rarely have left images, and never directly under a header, - a missed friend's rule, not to displace the text ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 17:40, 15 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Moved sorority pix to the right. That's a good solution. Finetooth (talk) 17:54, 15 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I could move it up too, as you suggest. Which do you think is better? Finetooth (talk) 18:01, 15 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I wouldn't move it all the way up, because she wasn't yet Bryant. You could split the first section, for the two husbands of her mother, and put the image with the second. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 18:12, 15 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

New York

  • same
    Yes. Same reply as above. Moving the Strong image down would spoil the layout by creating a text sandwich since the Overman image is bumped against the Overman paragraph.
  • link World War I here which was not linked before?
Linked it now in the lead and also on first mention in the "Croton-on-Hudson" section, where I have now inserted it to make it more clear what "war" refers to. Finetooth (talk) 17:39, 15 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for meeting an interesting woman and her world! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:06, 14 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for action! Support! Keep thinking about the images. Perhaps we don't need the senator? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 17:55, 15 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for your kind words, your insights, and your support. I have removed the Overman image and moved all the others to the right. Fortunately, none is staring out of the page, which is another layout consideration. Finetooth (talk) 18:13, 15 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Support from RobBertholf

[edit]

I looked through the article, but I was not able to find any issues. Support. Was an interesting and engaging read. - @Rob talk 08:30, 16 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Coord note

[edit]

I won't hold up promotion over it but I think I'd prefer to see citations for the statements in the second/last para of Bibliography prior to "Below is a partial list of her published work" -- unless all of that info is cited in the main body of the article, which it may well be. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 13:06, 16 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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