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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article review. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted 20:59, 20 March 2007.

Kulintang

[edit]

Been recieveing comments that this article I'm self-nominating was really good when it passed for a Good Article today. It was according to some: "well written, well sectioned, and very informative: it contains more meat than is found in some books. There is cultural context, history, technique, media files, and even a table of major performers in nice format, not to mention the numerous informative illustrations. The reference section is outstanding." I personally worked on this so if you have any comments, please feel free spill them and i'll be happy to address them. PhilipDM 10:38, 6 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support The text quoted above is mine, and I stand by it. I found the article by following a DYK link from the Main Page, and was pleasantly surprised to find an article on par with the AotD; DYKs are typically a crapshoot. The article has been very thoroughly researched, is well written, formatted and illustrated, and very comprehensive: if there is anything you've been dying to know about kulintangs, the article has it :-) Freederick 14:57, 7 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Oppose, numerous problems, suggest a thorough peer review to prepare for FAC. There are WP:MSH issues; the lead should summarize the article and need not be burdened by inline citations based on text from the body of the article; hyphens and dashes aren't used according to WP:MOS; the prose relies heavily on slashes; why is there an italicized title above the info box; and this is an example of an article which is burdened by overciting of trivial facts and poor placement of inline citations. Attention to prose organization should allow for less peppering of citations throughout the text. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:08, 7 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    I will address those issues shortly.PhilipDM 18:55, 7 March 2007 (UTC) Those issues have been addressed. See below. PhilipDM 18:54, 12 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The article actually did go to Peer Review, where it was completely ignored, and then archived. TheCoffee 06:06, 8 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Nobody does PR nowadays, anyway... --Howard the Duck 09:22, 8 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Nobody does peer review? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 05:14, 14 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • I have switched to a strong (above) because there are problems in the info filled in to the cite templates throughout the article, which, although I'm sure it's not intentional, unfortunately give the impression of misleading references. This really needs to be fixed before the article is promoted, because the references are misleading, and not all appear reliable. Some of the sources are blogs and personal websites, but that information is obfuscated by the way the info is listed in the cite templates. (This is after the blogs removed by Indon, below.) The information filled in under work and/or publisher on the cite templates (which often should be publisher) isn't always descriptive, giving the impression (for example) of very reliable sources which are actually personal websites. For example, this personal website was listed as Gamelan: architecture of carved rhythm. The University of California Press, but that information can't be verified on this site (is it a book? if so, the info is incomplete.) This blogisn't specified in the templates as a blog. There's nothing to indicate that Kipas Gallery is a reliable source.; the cite template had been filled in to indicate the source as Music instruments from the Philippines, but it is Kipas Gallery. This (PnoyAndTheCity: A center for Kulintang - A home for Pasikings. ) for example, is another blog. I've only had time to correct a few, beginning at the top, but I didn't get through most of them, and the article needs still a lot more work on specifying exactly who the website publishers are, and determining if they are reliable sources. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 05:14, 14 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • Further, adding 1a object; the prose is quite troubled, and a serious independent copyedit is needed. The prose is not professional, or compelling. Sample prose:
      • The main purpose for kulintang music in the community is to function as social entertainment at a nonprofessional, folk level. This music is unique in that it is considered a public music in the sense everyone is allowed to participate. Not only do the players play, but the audience members, consisting of neighbors and guests who come to the event, are also expected to participate.
    • SandyGeorgia (Talk) 05:18, 14 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • Self-published Sources Issue - to do
Well, we definitely have a situation here. I read the Wikipedia:Reliable_sources#Self-published_sources with the sentence 'Personal websites, blogs, and other self-published or vanity publications should not be used as secondary sources. I understand that totally.
However, I also wished this was a topic that was fully researched that there are enough of these so-called "reliable sources" out there that we could use. Kulintang is a musical genre on par with Gamelan but comparatively speaking, on the amount of research done on each, kulintang cannot compare at all. Gamelan has hundereds of books published thoughtout and has been researched so throughly, there's even a center for this music in Yogyakarta.
For kulintang music, we have only a limited amount of journal articles here and there. Research has never been done as throughly because it is not as widely spread worldwide as gamelan, much of the music resides in indigenous tribes where there are not many scholars recording what's going on and finally, areas where this music occurs are not as accesible to those who are scholars becuase of internal strife i.e. Eastern Indonesia and the Southern Philippines. I mean, I would like to go to the library and borrow books on kulintang and source them but there has yet to even be one single book, specifically writing about this musical genre. It's sad. In fact, i'm hoping to publish the first one of its kind this year. That's primarily the reason why i ended up referring to those sources.
So, what i could do is knock out every personal website in the article. I'll defend two though becuase they seem to fit under the "well-known, professional researcher writing within his or her field of expertise" exception.
One is this blog by Mohammad Amin. It's a paper about the kolintang gong music of Sulawesi but it's really sourced well. However, though Mohammad Amin has not published anything concern kakalu music that I know of, he has his own group, Hawai`i Kakula Ensemble, and happens to be the top source for this music in the states. Without him, we have almost no information about Sulewasi kolintang music.
Another blog is Pnoyandthecity. It has the online textbook enclosed within it, "Traditional Music of the Southern Philippines" by Philip Dominguez Mercurio. Unlike Amin, Mercurio has published information about kulintang music in both Philippine News and Manila Bulletin. The editor of this textbook is Master Danongan Sibay Kalanduyan, a legend in this field. He has also published numerous things in journal of "Asian Music" and he perhaps is one of the sole resources for kulintang music from the Philippines... almost all those who published information about kulintang music, either published or not, used him as their primarly source. Also all the pictures in this article come from this source which they shared with wikipedia. This source is in the process of being published into a book... later we willl use that as the reference source for this information and not the blog.
For the other sources, if they classified as personal websites, i'll knock them out. Chances are some of their information overlaps with the reliable sources. We'll just have to wait and see. PhilipDM 21:12, 14 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
REMOVED Matusky, Patricia (2002). Musical Instruments of Malaysia. Musical Malaysia. Musicmall Conservatoire Productions Sdn Bnd. Retrieved on February 22, 2007. Cite is repeatitive of Matusky, Patricia. "An Introduction to the Major Instruments and Forms of Traditional Malay Music." Asian Music Vol 16. No. 2. (Spring-Summer 1985), pp. 121-182. It's actually the same source. Replaced it with Matusky2. PhilipDM 22:28, 15 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
REMOVED Buchholdt, Titania (2007). Kulintang Classes @ Pusod. Pusod Online. Retrieved on February 22, 2007. Titania Buchholdt is well-versed in the culture of kulintang music. She is involved in kulintang groups, particularly Master Danongan Kalanduyan PKE group. However site is not clear if she is the author of information given... information which could be found in many of the other published sources below. PhilipDM 22:37, 15 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
KEPT Ethnic Music. Embassy of the Republic of Indonesia in Berlin - Germany (2007). Retrieved on February 22, 2007. This is a government website published by the Indonesia Embassy of Berlin. Unless they made massive typographical errors, I'm assuming this site is reliable. PhilipDM 22:41, 15 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
KEPT Amin, Mohammad (2005). A Comparison of Music of the Philippines and Sulawesi. Sulawesi. Retrieved on February 22, 2007. This is a blog but as I stated above there is a well-referenced paper written here by a one of the few scholars involved in Sulewasi kolintang/kakalu nuada music. Mohammad Amin fits the exception of personal websites. PhilipDM 22:50, 15 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
KEPT Butocan, Aga Mayo (2007). Maguindanao Kulintang. Tao Music. Retrieved on February 22, 2007. Text here written by Aga Mayo Butocan. She, like Master Danongan Kalanduyan is also heavily involved in kulintang music, participates in ensembles and teaches it at the University of the Philippines. Another exception. PhilipDM 22:50, 15 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
REMOVED Jager, Fekke de (2006). Kulintang Ensemble. Kipas Gallery. Retrieved on February 22, 2007. Personally, I remember Master Kalanduyan mention to me that this fellow did some astounding documentation on the kulintang music in Indonesia and the Philippines. However, since I can't find any published documentation he has done or any other affiliation he has with kulintang music, I'm removing him. If you find evidence that proves otherwise, i'll be happy to revert this removal. PhilipDM 23:00, 15 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
REMOVED Jeanson, Aled (2005). Gamelan in South-East Asia. Gamelan: architecture of carved rhythm. The University of California Press. Retrieved on February 22, 2007. Really hard to figure out would wrote or published what on this page. Couldn't even find where the name Jeanson, Aled came from. Removed. PhilipDM 23:06, 15 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
REMOVED Cruz, Gray (2006). Musicians - Rondalla and Percussionists. Likha Pilipino Folk Ensemble. Likha Pilipino Folk Ensemble. Retrieved on February 22, 2007. Personally, not familiar with this group. They could be legitamate but becuase they have not published anything that I know of outside of this website, I'm uncertain, I'm removing it. Again if you find evidence, tell me. PhilipDM 23:11, 15 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
KEPT Grafias, Robert. Music of Indonesia, Malaysia, and the Philippines. Anthro 1385. University of California, Irvine. Retrieved on February 22, 2007. Definitely a legitamate source. Once the boss of Master Kalanduyan in University of Washington, works as the dean of music in UCLA and published information about kulintang in Asian Music. PhilipDM 23:23, 15 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
KEPT Brandeis, Hans (2006). Photographs of Mindanao, Philippines. Gallery of Photographs from Mindanao, Philippines.. Filipino Association of Berlin. Retrieved on February 12, 2007. Another legit guy from Germany. Does documentation on indiginous music of the Philipines and has reviewed articles before in legitamate journals. PhilipDM 23:23, 15 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
REMOVED Panis, Alleluia (2006). Magui Moro Master Artists in Residence. Kularts. Kulintang Arts Incorporated. Retrieved on February 22, 2007. Unclear on who wrote article, about legitamate group though. PhilipDM 23:23, 15 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
KEPT Canave-Dioquino, Corazon (2007). Philippine Music Instruments. Articles on Culture & Arts. National Commission For Culture And The Arts. Retrieved on February 22, 2007. I'm not familiar with Corazon Canave-Dioquino as familiar with kulintang music but I would say this is not a personal website but an article published by a governmental commission. Should be legit. PhilipDM 06:16, 16 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
KEPT Butocan, Aga M. (2006). Palabunibunyan. Kulintang and the Maguindanaos. Retrieved on February 22, 2007. Personal website but as stated early, Aga Butocan is a known expert of kulintang music and has participated it legitamate traditional kulintang groups. PhilipDM 06:20, 16 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
KEPT Danongan Kalanduyan. Spark. KQED - Arts and Culture (2006). Retrieved on February 22, 2007. This is a website of American public broadcasting show on KQED profiling the legendary Master Danongan Kalanduyan. PhilipDM 06:22, 16 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
KEPT Trimillos, Ricardo D. (2004). Performing Ethnomusicology: Teaching and Representation in World Music Ensembles. California: The University of California Press. The University of California Press. Retrieved on February 22, 2007. This is a published work of the University of California Press. Kept. PhilipDM 06:25, 16 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
REMOVED Hila, Antonio C (2006). Indigenous Music - Tuklas Sining: Essays on the Philippine Arts. Filipino Heritage.com. Tatak Pilipino. Retrieved on February 22, 2007. I leaned toward removing this essay found on a commercial website. It has lots of information about pre-colonial Filipino music and an author. However, I do not know about this author familirity with kulintang music, I don't if he published works and there are no sources attached to this essay. So I removed it. PhilipDM 06:36, 16 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
KEPT Mercurio, Philip Dominguez (2006). Traditional Music of the Southern Philippines. PnoyAndTheCity: A center for Kulintang - A home for Pasikings. Retrieved on February 25, 2006. This is a blog but as I established before it encloses a online textbook, referenced well, has a legitamate author with published works on kulintang music and its editor is a legend in kulintang music, Master Danongan Kalanduyan. PhilipDM 06:44, 16 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
REMOVED but with reservations Dria, Jose Arnaldo (2006). Maguindanao. Philippine Literature. Retrieved on February 22, 2007. Seems to be a legit site intent on documenting all the indigious people of the Philippines. Has author and well-referenced but I question reliability. I removed it but this could always be reverted if you believe otherwise. PhilipDM 06:52, 16 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
KEPT Kalanduyan, Danongan Sibay (2006). What is Kulintang?. Palabuniyan Kulintang Ensemble – Traditional Gong Music and Dance from Mindanao Island, Philippines. Retrieved on November 1, 2006. Personal website of the legendary kulintang master, Master Danongan Kalanduyan. Another exception. PhilipDM 06:56, 16 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
REMOVED Phillips, Frances (2001). CWF LEAD ARTISTS: DANONGAN KALANDUYAN. Creative Work Fund. Creative Work Fund. Retrieved on February 22, 2007. Legitamate event but unclear author or publisher. PhilipDM 07:39, 16 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
KEPT Musical Instruments. SabahTravelGuide.Com. Sabah Tourism Promotion Corporation (2007). Retrieved on February 22, 2007. Website of the Sabah tourism board. No author but it should be considered a informational website about musical instruments of Sabah. PhilipDM 07:44, 16 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
REMOVED Culture. Labuan, Malaysia: The International Garden Island of Borneo. Labuan Corporation (2001). Retrieved on February 22, 2007. Seems to be a commerical, non-governmental website with no author. removed. PhilipDM 07:48, 16 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • Copyedit by an independent editor - FOR SOMEONE TO DO
Could someone work on this becuase I can't. Thank you. PhilipDM 21:12, 14 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. An interesting article, but the prose has severe problems, starting with grammatical errors in the first two sentences ("Kulintang is a modern term of an instrumental form of music..." and "...kulintang music ensembles has been played..."). It gets somewhat better later on, but the whole article needs a thorough copyedit.—Celithemis 06:20, 14 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
 Done -- Thanks. Your copyedit suggestions have been implemented. Please edit more. PhilipDM 21:44, 14 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
When the other issues are resolved you can list it at Wikipedia:WikiProject League of Copyeditors/proofreading#Requests_for_FAC_and_FAR. —Celithemis 04:04, 15 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. Enjoyed the article, but the prose need work throughout:
  • "kulintang music ensembles has been played for centuries" - have played
made it have been played PhilipDM 21:57, 14 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • "from a simple, native signaling" - comma not needed
  • "developing into its present form with the incorporation of knobbed gongs from Sunda." - and developed, maybe mention when this development occured.
No exact dates provide by source. Oral tradition and based on etymology. PhilipDM 21:57, 14 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Its importance stems from the fact it is representative of..." - the fact is redundant
  • "existing culture in these islands" - indigenous?
  • "By the twentieth century, the term kulintang has also come" - had also come
  • "to mean the entire Maguindanao ensembles of five to six instruments" - to denote an entire
Made to denote an entire Maguindanao ensemble PhilipDM 21:57, 14 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
These are examples from the lead only, but similar problems occur throughout the text. Ceoil 19:36, 14 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
 Done -- Thanks. Your copyedit suggestions have been implemented. Please edit more. PhilipDM 21:57, 14 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article review. No further edits should be made to this page.
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