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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Gog the Mild via FACBot (talk) 19 March 2023 [1].

John Manners (cricketer)

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Nominator(s): StickyWicket (talk) 12:47, 25 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I got this article to GA class in April 2020 and decided, with some time on my hands in the next few months, to see if it could reach FA status. I have previously listed this for a peer review, but had no input, but I did list it on the cricket project talk page for feedback, which was received and actioned. John Manners was a Royal Navy officer and first-class cricketer, most notable for being the oldest living first-class cricketer ever, until his death in 2020 aged 105. All told, his life was a fascinating one! Looking forward to hearing what comments people have. StickyWicket (talk) 12:47, 25 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Coordinator note

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Hi StickyWicket, just noting that as a first time nominator at FAC, this article will need to pass a source to text integrity spot check to be considered for promotion. Good luck with the nomination. Gog the Mild (talk) 19:01, 25 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

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Comments Support from Chris

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  • "With his first-class career further interrupted by the war, Manners returned to first-class cricket in 1947" - maybe just say "With his career further interrupted by the war, Manners returned to first-class cricket in 1947" to avoid repetition?
  • "after securing a shore based position" => "after securing a shore-based position"
  • "thus narrowly falling short of becoming the first Hampshire batsman to make a century on their first-class debut" - was the miss really "narrow"? It's not like he scored 98 or 99.....
  • "Prior to the United Kingdom's declaration of war on Germany in September 1939, Manners had been saving his leave in order to have a full summer playing county cricket in 1940, but the subsequent declaration would mean it would be more than ten years before he played first-class cricket again" - this contradicts the lead, which says he played first class cricket in 1947, only eight years after war broke out.
  • "Manners was recalled back to Britain" => "Manners was recalled to Britain"
  • "Six months later, with Eglinton based at Harwich, Manner's and his wife" - shouldn't have an apostrophe in his name
  • "although unscathed, four other occupants of the house were killed" => "although they were unscathed, four other occupants of the house were killed" (existing wording indicated that the four people killed were also unscathed)
  • "a third depth-charge set to “deep”, which caused a prolonged explosion and brought more oil to the surface" - first part has no verb. Maybe reword to "a third depth-charge set to “deep” caused a prolonged explosion and brought more oil to the surface"
  • "where he received the German surrender there" => "where he received the German surrender" ("there" was redundant to "where")
  • "Manners entertained himself by playing in cricket matches against Sydney's leading public schools" - do we know who he played for? Currently it almost reads like he was playing "1 vs 11 matches"......
  • "in a first-class match apiece for each" => "in a first-class match apiece" (again "for each" is redundant to "apiece", which means the same thing)
  • "who Manners would visit each Christmas" => "whom Manners would visit each Christmas"
    • Done. 22:28, 26 January 2023 (UTC)
  • That's what I got :-) -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 16:50, 26 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 09:44, 27 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Coordinator comment

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Three weeks in and just the single general support. Unless this nomination makes significant further progress towards a consensus to promote over the next three or four days I am afraid that it is liable to be archived. Gog the Mild (talk) 14:51, 15 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I have posted this to the talk pages of the MILHIST and cricket projects. Do you know of any FAC contributors who might be willing to add to the discussion? StickyWicket (talk) 15:56, 15 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
AssociateAffiliate, I appreciate that real life exists, but this has been open for six weeks and you have not responded to open comments for six days. If some of the outstanding queries are not resolved soon the nomination is liable to time out under "actionable objections have not been resolved". Gog the Mild (talk) 13:59, 8 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Addressed a few more points this evening. StickyWicket (talk) 00:13, 9 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Gog the Mild: I've addressed all these points now. StickyWicket (talk) 22:35, 10 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Comments Support by From Hill To Shore

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I'm placing this here as a holder. I may not be able to make an in depth review before the weekend. From Hill To Shore (talk) 12:49, 16 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I am a little concerned that Yardley-Latham (2010) is a primary source written by the subject. It is slightly redeemed as having been edited by Yardley-Latham but the majority of the content is presumably in Manner's own words and with any associated bias. Are there any alternative sources that we can use either to replace Yardley-Latham or to insert as supporting citations? From Hill To Shore (talk) 00:57, 17 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Surprisingly, for someone who died so recently and was the holder of a notable longevity record, besides his long RN career, there isn't a great deal written about him that goes into detail about his life. Yardley-Latham (2010) seems to be the only one, and is of course a collection of his memoirs. Possibly some of his obituaries might be able to support the references from Yardley-Latham. StickyWicket (talk) 13:07, 17 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Unfortunately that is likely to mean we either trim out the potentially contested statements supported by Yardley-Latham or this fails the FA nomination. I'll have a look through the statements later but the line about the court martial of the King George V lieutenant is a bit much to be supported by a primary source that may be speaking from rumour rather than fact. From Hill To Shore (talk) 14:00, 17 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
With the statement about the court-martial and the relieving of her commander, I am finding it difficult to find any official documentation. I presume by "commander" Manners' would have been speaking about an officer with the same rank as him, as her overall commanding officer remained in place throughout October 1945. I have searched in Trove for any headlines about it, but nothing thus far. StickyWicket (talk) 16:01, 17 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I have concerns with several statements that are only supported by the Yardley-Latham primary source. Primary sources can only be used to support statements directly about the source of primary information. In other words, uncontroversial claims about Manners can be supported by Manners but not claims relating to wider subjects. From Hill To Shore (talk) 23:56, 21 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  • "It was reported at the time to have been the second largest unexploded German bomb to have been recovered during the Blitz." - that is quite a big claim and we should have a secondary source to support it. All we can really say at the moment is "Manners heard it was the second largest."
  • "In the same month, Eglinton was chosen to take part in Operation Lucid, a plan to use fire ships to attack German invasion barges in ports in German-occupied northern France, however while escorting an oil tanker to Boulogne the command ship HMS Hambledon struck a mine, resulting in the cancellation of the operation." - there should be secondary sources available that describe the operation.
  • "Manners served as a lieutenant aboard Eglinton until February 1942, after which he held a brief command aboard HMS Fame which was being repaired at Chatham. After a few weeks commanding Fame, Manners was sent to HMS Eskimo at Falmouth, after her first lieutenant had fallen overboard and drowned." - I'd expect some secondary source material for the drowning, at the very least.
    • I wonder if this might be Lieutenant Edward Peregrine Stuart Russell, who drowned in May 1942 whilst attempting to save a comrade aboard Eskimo? I'll see if I can do some digging, but do have a dissertation deadline to meet this coming week, so might take me a week or two to address these!!! StickyWicket (talk) 21:28, 23 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • "After a fortnight at the sheep station, Manners received a phonecall and was assigned to HMS King George V in October 1945, after her first lieutenant had been court-martialled and commander relieved of his duties." - we need a secondary source for the court martial and relieved of duty claims.
    • I have also removed the court-martial and relieving of duty claims, as I can't find anything to back it up on Trove and someone has checked books on the British Pacific Fleet and there was no mention; I'm guessing it just didn't merit press coverage. StickyWicket (talk) 14:33, 9 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
StickyWicket, have you addressed all of From Hill To Shore's comments? If so, could you ping them? Thanks. Gog the Mild (talk) 13:39, 27 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Not yet, will be slow business over the next week or so, I'm writing up my dissertation for my degree! StickyWicket (talk) 22:17, 1 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@From Hill To Shore:. I've addressed your comments, hopefully sufficiently! :) StickyWicket (talk) 11:18, 10 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry for the delay. As all of the potentially challenged material supported by the primary source has been removed or a supporting secondary source added, I have no more concerns here. Changing to support. From Hill To Shore (talk) 15:39, 15 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Support Comments by Sturmvogel_66

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  • "however while escorting an oil tanker to Boulogne the operation command ship HMS Hambledon struck a mine" awkward, especially "operation command ship"
  • "Forming part of the Rosyth Escort Force as an anti-aircraft and anti-E-boat escort to convoys in the North Sea which were carrying supplies from the Firth of Forth to London, Viceroy was escorting a convoy on 11 April 1945, when the tanker SS Athelduke which was carrying 12,600 tonnes (27,800,000 lb) of molasses was hit by a torpedo from the German submarine U-1274 near the Farne Islands, causing two explosions to rock the ship" This is very long and could profitably be split. Use Imperial measurements, not metric, and don't convert them into pounds; use long or short tons instead.
  • "Realising the convoy was under attack from a U-boat, and that the water was too deep for mines" The clauses here seem to be reversed. The water being too deep for mines made the cause of the explosions a submarine's torpedoes.
  • How did returning to the sinking allow him to recover 12 bottles of brandy?
  • Change explosion for detonation
  • I am astonished at the glacial speed of his promotions, especially since his father was an admiral and he was a pre-war regular officer. 1 promotion in 21 years?!! I'd love to know the reason why, but I doubt that it will ever be known.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 16:24, 16 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Come back in about 25-50 years when the personnel files are opened. Buckshot06 (talk) 19:20, 16 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Buckshot06

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Assigning onboard King George V - I believe first lieutenant and commander may be the same officer. What do the sources say exactly? Also, that event needs to be added to HMS King George V (!). Buckshot06 (talk) 19:20, 16 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I think you're right, plus the big-boss commanding officer of the ship was Captain Brian Schofield, who was in post from April 1945 to September 1946, so he almost certainly wasn't talking about him! Reading more of his memoirs in Yardley-Latham (2010), it reads: "Her first lieutenant had been court-martialled for drunkenness and the commander had been relieved of his duties. The commander, one Dick White, was pulled out of his destroyer and had just joined. My duties were "mate of the upper deck", which roughly meant looking after the workforce, running the commanders' office, producing the daily orders, entertainment officer and any odd jobs nobody else wanted".
This event happened in Sydney, but having looked in Trove I can't see any mention of a court-martial in October (or September 1945) making the headlines. Are there any books dedicated to the history of the ship? StickyWicket (talk) 17:44, 17 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think so. As I understand things from my work on the Hood article, the first lieutenant was a lieutenant-commander's job in a battleship, while the commander was the captain's executive officer in American parlance and had the rank of commander.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 18:21, 17 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I have the one book dedicated to the KGVs and it's mostly focused on wartime activities and technical descriptions. No joy in Hobbs' history of the British Pacific Fleet either.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 18:32, 17 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Ah so he wasn't talking about them in inclusive words, the first lieutenant (aka lieutenant-commander) and the commander had had a few too many and were relieved of their positions, with White replacing the commander and Manners the first lieutenant? Shame there's nothing which documents it besides his memoirs, I mean would it be a major controversy which would be newsworthy? StickyWicket (talk) 20:14, 17 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Comments Support by Richard Nevell

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It's interesting to see a cricket biography at FAC, especially about someone with quite a colourful story. Writing a biography about someone who has passed away means the source material will largely be static which makes maintaining the article over the long-term easier than someone whose career is ongoing. A range of sources are used, but there are areas for improvement.

  • Could we have a source for Manners being a hard-hitting batter? It's mentioned in the lead without a reference but doesn't appear in the body.
  • In the infobox Manners' career span with Hampshire is given as 1936–1948. Perhaps 1936, 1947–1948 would be a more accurate reflection since it was not continuous.
    • I believe this was discussed some years ago on the cricket project (10 years at least) and it was decided to apply the same career span style as Cricinfo and CricketArchive, who use 2000–2010. It does bring up some curious spans, say as an example John Bloggs who played for Kent in 1886 and then the MCC in 1910! But as they are both authoritative sources, it was decided to mirror their method. It was 10 years ago now, so can always be re-raised with the cricket project. StickyWicket (talk) 00:02, 27 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • There's some conflicting information about brandy and the Athelduke. The vandwdestroyerassociation.org.uk source says the captain sent a single bottle to the First Sea Lord which was then sent to Churchill. The Wisden article also says one bottle was sent as a gift, but has it going from Manners to Churchill; it seems that might have simplified the situation.
    • Amended. It seems Manners and another officer recovered the brandy, which was handed in at port, from where a Captain Ruck-Keene sent a bottle to Churchill (in a casket made by the carpenter aboard Viceroy. He then wrote a letter of thanks to those involved. StickyWicket (talk) 14:21, 10 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • The lead doesn't mention anything between Manners' retirement from the navy in 1958 and becoming the oldest living first-class cricketer in 2014. At the very least I think it should include that he worked at Dauntsey's school for 18 years.
  • "strong Hampshire Club & Ground side": as this is a judgement and relative, it is perhaps worth quoting from the source.
  • "sufficiently impressed future Test Match Special commentator John Arlott": sufficient to what? It seems like this is leading to something, perhaps the quote about Manners' potential that crops up in a couple of places? It would be a shame not to use it as it is rather a good one.
  • Reference #13 (later ref #15) is to the catalogue entry for Manners' private papers at the Imperial War Museum. Is this because the catalogue entry itself is the reference, or were the archival materials consulted? If the latter, {{Cite archive}} would be more suitable.
    • I honestly have no idea what that was referencing, it was at the end of a cricket related sentence which doesn't match anything at the reference. So I have removed it, but still referenced his private papers later on. StickyWicket (talk) 00:23, 9 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • The article mentions once that Manners was an amateur cricketer. It would be helpful to give the reader some background on the amateur-professional divide in county cricket at this time, especially as it's an interesting bit of social history. The 2016 Wisden feature, "Last men in", goes into this.
  • While the sporting aspects of John's life are well covered, the details about his family life seem a bit light. In particular:
  • It seems a bit odd not to mention any of John's siblings I think the rest of this line was added here by accident, but I'm not sure where it fits in the comments so I'm leaving it here unstruck! Richard Nevell (talk) 19:15, 15 March 2023 (UTC), including his sister who it seems is still alive (she is 105 later this year).[reply]
  • His parents' deaths are mentioned in parentheses but perhaps they could be added to the article's chronological narrative, especially if there is anything to say regarding the impact of their deaths.
    • @Richard Nevell: His mother's date of death was incorrectly recorded as 1967 by an obituary. She actually died in 1926, a year before he attended Dartmouth. In his memoirs, he mentions his mother had been ill for most of his childhood, but he had little memory of her. Is this worth including, given the use of his memoirs as a source is a little controversial (see above)? As for his father, he passed away in 1953 and there is no mention of how this affected Manners, his death post-dating the end of Manners' memoirs. StickyWicket (talk) 14:31, 9 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • I like that the article mentions Manners' photographs and research are archived at MERL. That's a nice addition to the article, and I think shows that his work has value. In a similar manner, I would add to the article that (some of) his private papers are archived at the Imperial War Museum and that he subsequently published his memoirs covering 1938 to 1945. The IWM catalogue entry and the memoirs are both currently used as references, but it would be worth making it explicit for the reader.
  • The MCC Museum has his caps for Wiltshire County Cricket Club and the Wiltshire Queries Cricket Club in their collection. That is worth adding as well, but may also be a thread to pull on as the article doesn't currently mention his involvement with either club but if the MCC is holding onto his caps there must have been a link of some sort to include.
    • That's interesting about a Wiltshire County Cricket Club cap, I wasn't aware he had any playing connection with Wiltshire and it doesn't look like there's any record of him playing for them on CricketArchive. I wonder if this was an honorary thing, will look into that some more. StickyWicket (talk) 22:18, 8 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
      • I have added that he played club cricket for the Wiltshire Queries Cricket Club and said he was issued a cap by Wiltshire CCC. Still a mystery on the Wiltshire CCC part, not even some Wiltshire based publications reporting on his death mention any playing association with the club, which lends me to think he was involved on an administrative basis with them. Hopefully I can find out if he was. StickyWicket (talk) 22:34, 8 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Manners' maritime career between 1953 and 1958 is dealt with in a sentence. Did anything of note happen? Can this time be linked to particular ships?
  • According to the Wisden feature, the quote from Arlott originated in the Hampshire 1990 county yearbook. Has it been checked to see if there is more information that could be added?
    • Sadly, I don't have a copy of Hampshire year books going that far back, and I don't know anyone on the cricket project who might. There's no open access online version avaliable either. StickyWicket (talk) 22:34, 8 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
      • The Hampshire Record Office in Winchester has a copy of the 1990 edition, but it's only open three days a week and slightly short opening hours. Since the yearbooks start after Manners retired there won't be contemporary reports, and it's likely the Arlott quote that's filtered through to later pieces was the most important bit related to Manners in the 1990s edition. On balance I'll strike this comment. Richard Nevell (talk) 19:15, 15 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Overall, it's a reasonably well detailed article about an interesting character, but there are some gaps that need to be addressed. Richard Nevell (talk) 23:05, 21 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your comments. I'll try and address these over the next week or so :) StickyWicket (talk) 10:37, 23 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Richard Nevell:. All addressed :) StickyWicket (talk) 14:21, 10 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I'll take another look, it will probably be Monday evening before I get to it. Richard Nevell (talk) 16:58, 11 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Richard ? Gog the Mild (talk) 12:49, 15 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I think at this stage all that is outstanding is mentioning that he didn't remember much about his mother and consider whether a sentence or two about the amateur/professional divide can be squeezed in. So we're very close to wrapping up. Richard Nevell (talk) 19:15, 15 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Source review by Hawkeye7 - pass

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Sources are of good quality.

Spot checks: 5, 9, 12, 20, 43, 44, 46, 49 - okay

Hawkeye7 (discuss) 19:35, 14 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

All done :) StickyWicket (talk) 20:27, 15 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Hawkeye ? Gog the Mild (talk) 18:45, 18 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 19:55, 18 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]


The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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