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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by Ian Rose 10:02, 6 July 2013 (UTC) [1].[reply]

I Could Fall in Love

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I Could Fall in Love (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

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Nominator(s): Jonatalk to me 16:28, 21 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I am nominating this for featured article because...I have worked on this article for about a year and searched through countless websites and books to bring this stub article to a GA. I then asked Gareth Griffith-Jones if he can copy-edited the article, which he did back in August 2012. His copy-editing skills really helped the article but I needed more eyes and asked Noleander if he could take a second look over the article. After finishing his points he made and performing another extensive search for more reviews I believe I am done with this article and it is at its fullest. I believe it is FA worthy and so I am here to present "I Could Fall in Love" a love song by American singer Selena. Enjoy Jonatalk to me 16:28, 21 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Support Comments from Noleander

  • Grammar? - "Critics praised the song for Selena's emotive enunciation, remarked upon the similarity to songs recorded by Celine Dion, Brandy Norwood, and TLC" - grammar doesnt seem right. Missing "and" before "remarked"?
  • Extra word: "... and being awarded the Among Most Played Song..." - Can "being" be removed?
  • Logical sequence: Consider reversing two sentences: "Although "I Could Fall in Love" peaked at number .." and " Fearing that "I Could Fall in Love" might...". Readers might understand it better as "The song was not released as a single because .... Thus it was not eligible for ..."
  • Plural: " "I Could Fall in Love" became one of Selena's most famous and recognizable recording ..." - "recordings"
  • Last name? - ". Selena and A. B. .." - Why not refer to A.B. by his last name Quintanilla? it is odd to use a first name (or initials).
  • Clarify: " Because Thomas was unable to add any more vocals to a new song, "I Could Fall in Love", he performed an a cappella version to assist their understanding. Selena and A. B. instantly appreciated the existing lyric ..." - Not sure what was happening there. Did Thomas have writers block? was he asking Selena and AB to help with the lyrics? They then concluded that the lyrics were satisfactory as-is?
  • When I saw the video I didn't get it either but that's what he said. I don't know what a writers block is, he wasn't asking them to add lyrics to the song, my understanding is that he didn't apply backing vocals to the song or something I'm not sure but since it is part of the songs development I added his statement. Jonatalk to me 23:39, 25 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
If neither you nor I can understand what the speaker is saying, it should be removed from the article. The article should only contain information that is clear to readers. --Noleander (talk) 10:40, 26 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I asked for help from the Wikiproject Music to help with our understanding. If no one can seem to understand this or help I will remove it from the article. Jonatalk to me 22:30, 28 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Wording: " Although Selena had to return later when Thomas was able to provide additional vocals, Selena's husband, Chris Perez – who had overshadowed the recording sessions – stated that the recording was wrapped up in one day" - Two issues: (1) "overshadowed" is probably not the best word .. that has an ominous overtone, like Perez dominated the recordings ... is "overseen" better? "Participated"? "Witnessed"? "Monitored"? (2) why even mention the husband? Is there a dispute whether or not the song was recorded in a single day? if there is no dispute, better to just not mention the husband as the source.
  • Footnotes at end: ""I Could Fall in Love" is a mid-tempo[22][23] pop ballad[24] and R&B[23] song with soul,[10] pop, and soft rock influences.[25]" - The footnotes in mid sentence interfere with readers ability to read. Suggest move all footnotes to the end of the sentence. Suggest use a single footnote, and put all the citations/sources into a single footnote, using the WP:CITEBUNDLE approach.
  • I don't like citebundle because it's too much work for me, also the citations are like that because each ref doesn't support each claim so I can't put them at the period if they don't claim the whole sentence. Jonatalk to me 23:39, 25 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Also CITEBUNDLE for "... a keyboard, a flamenco guitar,[23] Spanish guitar, and ..." and similar footnotes.
  • Tense: The first paragraph of the Composition section contains a mix of present & past tense. Mostly it looks correct: past tense for reviews; present tense for attributes of the song. But is " "I Could Fall in Love" is classified as ..." better as past tense?
  • Multiple footnotes: Although not a requirement for FA status, I think it looks better to avoid multiple footnotes, especially 3 or more, at the end of a sentence, e.g. " ... critics naming them "confessional ballads"[28][34][35] ". See WP:CITEBUNDLE.
  • Wording: "...contained a John Secada-esque demeanor ..." - contained & demeanor dont seem to go together. Maybe "presented ... demeanor" or "contained ... style" or "had ...style" or "had ... feel".
  • Whilst vs While - Both are used in the article; pick one and use it throughout (probably While).
  • Amongst vs Among - Both are used; stick with Among.
  • Grammar: ""I Could Fall in Love" dominated the Top 40 radio stations, well received by critics." - Change somehow. Maybe " ... and was well ..."; or "ICFIL was well received by critics and dominated ..."
  • Why name? "A San Antonio disc jockey, Suzy Camacho told .." - prior sentences do not identify the specific source/individual, so why mention this particular DJ?
  • Plural: " "I Could Fall in Love" became one of Selena's most recognizable recording." - change to "recordings".
  • Wording: " Los Jovenes Del Barrio recorded a homage cover .." - Aren't all covers homage covers? Or does "homage cover" have a specific meaning in the music business?
  • Disambig links check out okay. Overall article layout seems fine; article is comprehensive and thorough. I have not done a spotcheck on sources.

End Noleander comments. --Noleander (talk) 11:43, 24 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your comments I have done and/or replied. Best, Jonatalk to me 23:39, 25 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Changing to Support based on recent improvements. Have not done a spot-check of sources. --Noleander (talk) 12:50, 29 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comments Hey Jona! The chart table ref for Billboard needs to be updated since the main website relaunched and screwed everything up. I'd recommend using the singlechart template to remedy this. More comments will be on the way. ;) Erick (talk) 21:04, 28 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Hey Erick, can you provide an article as a model so I know how to add that since I never used that template before? Thanks, Jonatalk to me 22:30, 28 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Sure, try this. If you still need help, I'll be glad to assist as always. Erick (talk) 22:35, 28 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Like this? Best, Jonatalk to me 22:45, 28 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Pretty much, but you have the refnames the same. Let me help you out here. EDIT: Okay, I fixed the references and changed the refnames to correspond each chart as well as added accessdats. Be sure to apply refname where necessary. Erick (talk) 23:16, 28 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks bud can't wait for your review . Best, Jonatalk to me 23:35, 28 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I can't find anything really wrong that stands out so I'm giving out my support. Erick (talk) 04:05, 1 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved comments from DivaKnockouts 03:58, 29 April 2013 (UTC) (UTC)[reply]
Comments by DivaKnockouts
  • Images need Alt text.
    Done. Jonatalk to me 02:34, 29 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "I Could Fall in Love" is a song recorded by American recording artist Selena for her fifth studio album Dreaming of You (1995). — recorded and recording in the same sentence? Kind of redundant. Reword?
    Done. Jonatalk to me 02:34, 29 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Why is promotional recording plural?
    Because "Tu Solo Tu" was released as a promotional recording and not a single. Jonatalk to me 02:34, 29 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • You contradict "...and was named one of the best Tejano songs of 1995 by media outlets including the Tejano Music Times, TVyNovelas, and Furia Musical." with what is written above "I Could Fall in Love" is a pop ballad song with R&B, soul, pop, and soft rock influences." If it is a Tejano song why isn't the genre in the infobox and mentioned with the above?
    That's according to sources, the word "Tejano" doesn't only mean a music genre but a native born person who was born in South Texas. The sources are referring to the song as being the best Tejano song by a Tejano (Tex-Mex)-born singer. Jonatalk to me 02:34, 29 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • If the Tejano Music Times is notable enough for inclusion in the lead shouldn't there be a red link?
    Red links in the lead are frown upon by FAC reviewers. Jonatalk to me 02:34, 29 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "It was also released posthumously and received a Music Video of the Year nomination at the 1996 Tejano Music Awards." — You already mentioned its posthumous release in the first paragraph.
    No, I mentioned that the song was released posthumously not the music video so that's why I had to include it. Jonatalk to me 02:34, 29 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Koppelman believed Selena had reached her peak in the Spanish market and began preparations for a crossover album for Selena." — Redundant use of "Selena", remove "for Selena".
    Done. Jonatalk to me 02:34, 29 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Selena and her record producer brother, A.B. Quintanilla III,[9] arrived in Nashville, Tennessee, with the objective of collaborating with producer, songwriter Keith Thomas." → "Selena and her record producer brother, A.B. Quintanilla III,[9] arrived in Nashville, Tennessee, with the objective of collaborating with producer and songwriter Keith Thomas."
    Done. Jonatalk to me 02:34, 29 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Because of its "overly simplistic and repetitive lyrics", Ramiro Burr of the San Antonio Express-News named "I Could Fall in Love" the "weakest track"." — The weakest track from what? The album?
    Done. Jonatalk to me 02:34, 29 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "I Could Fall in Love" and "Tú Sólo Tú" filled the first and second slots respectively on the Hot Latin Tracks, continuing to do so for five consecutive weeks." — How could "I Could Fall in Love" have filled the first spot if it peaked at number two?
    Your not reading it right, "Tu Solo Tu" peaked at number one not ICFL. The two songs took the first slot (Tu Solo Tu) and the second one (ICFL) at the same time. Jonatalk to me 02:34, 29 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Therefore it was not eligible for the Billboard Hot 100 chart." — Comma missing.
    I don't see the need for a comma here? Jonatalk to me 02:34, 29 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Why mention the US for the Hot Latin Tracks and not when you first mention a chart?
    Done. Jonatalk to me 02:34, 29 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "I Could Fall in Love" dominated the Top 40 radio stations,[24][92][93] well received by critics." — Missing two words (and was before well).
    It's redundant to use that word and was removed by the copy-editor. Jonatalk to me 02:34, 29 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The song had heavy rotation in southern,[96] and western United States," — Missing a word (the before southern).
    Per above. Jonatalk to me 02:34, 29 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Following the song's release, it rapidly developed into being a popular wedding song,[58][104] resulting in "I Could Fall in Love" becoming one of Selena's most famous songs. — You just mentioned how it became one of her most recognizable songs.
    I don't understand what you mean by your comment. Jonatalk to me 02:34, 29 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • You mention how it is one of her most recognizable songs. Then some sentences down you say "becoming on of Selena's most famous songs." — Wouldn't "her most recognizable" and "her most famous" imply the same thing? — DivaKnockouts 02:49, 29 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      • Yes in some cases and no in others; recognizable can mean that if someone hears the song they may remember it that doesn't necessarily mean they enjoy or like it whereas famous would measure upon awards and chart success and not someones reactions. That's my opinion. Jonatalk to me 03:10, 29 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Puerto Rican singer and actress Jennifer Lopez lip-sync the track for her portrayal as "Selena" in the 1997 biographical film of the same name, — Add "ed" to "lip-sync".
    Done. Jonatalk to me 02:34, 29 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Was the song not placed on any other Year-end charts? (Maybe Latin Pop since it reached number one?)
    No, I can't find any other chart positions on Billboard. Jonatalk to me 02:34, 29 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Will support after these issues are clarified or addressed as article is overall in excellent shape with no major issues. References check out okay. — DivaKnockouts 02:07, 29 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for taking some time out to review the article. Well appreciated, Jonatalk to me 02:34, 29 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
You're welcome. — DivaKnockouts 02:49, 29 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Support on terms of prose and overall quality of article. Great job. — DivaKnockouts 03:58, 29 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you everyone for your support! It's very appreciated. Best, jonatalk to me 04:30, 1 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Media check - mostly all OK (fair-use, CC). Sources and authors provided. Just 1 fixable problem (Done):

Sources review: Only the first column checked thus far, but a number of issues require attention

  • Ref 4: I can find nothing in this source that supports the cited sentence: "She recorded 'Is It the Beat?', 'Where Did the Feeling Go?', and 'Only Love'." None of these songs are mentioned in the source. In any event, the source name should not be italicised.
  • Ref 5: the nature of the source is not clear. 60 minutes in what?
  • Templates are not tablets of stone. It is up to you to make clear the nature of the source to the reader, for example by adding (film) or appropriate description to the title in the template. Brianboulton (talk) 20:33, 13 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ref 8 is in Spanish – this should be noted. Where in the source is the cited statement covered?
  • Ref 12: What is the source? Who published this?
  • Ref 17: In the absence of an online link, page references should be given. Also applies to 25, 29, 33, 34, 36, 37 and no doubt others.
  • SandyGeorgia told me not to include a url to subscription-only references because it doesn't benefit the reader or reviewer since the claim will not in the text provided. That's why I did not include an urls for subscription-only sources. jonatalk to me 14:59, 14 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Refs 18 and 19: the discs in question need better identification than "EMI Latin"
  • Ref 22: Check link. All it gives me is a message: "Your search session has expired"
  • Ref 30 requires registration. This should be noted.

Further comments to follow. Brianboulton (talk) 14:59, 10 May 2013 (UTC) Here they are:[reply]

Second column
  • Ref 38: can you clarify the nature of the source?
  • Ref 45: the link goes to the wrong NYDN page
  • Ref 46: Spanish language source - note required.
  • Ref 47: Author? page reference?
  • Ref 49: If "PopMatters" is not a print source it should not be italicised.
  • Ref 54: Page reference required.
  • Ref 57: Please check the link. Each time I try it, it crashes Firefox.
  • Ref 80: Allmusic is not a print source and should not be italicised
  • Ref 89: This is a subscription service - needs to be noted
Third column
  • Page references required: 94, 96, 99, 100, 105, 106 and more
  • Ref 97: Incorrect link (see 45)
  • Ref 102: Source does not support the cited sentence: "In Riverside, California, program directors reported that "I Could Fall in Love" was among their top three hits being played on their radio stations".
  • Ref 107: Faulty link, please check
  • Ref 108: Nature of source not clear
  • Ref 113: Another Spanish source - needs noting
  • Ref 125: Not available to users outside the US - needs noting
  • Ref 126: "page not found"
  • Ref 129: What makes "BlogTo" a reliable source?

Some work to be done on sources, quite a lot of it simple presentation stuff, before the article is ready for promotion. Although I have not read the whole article I picked up a few prose glitches needing attention (there could be others):

  • "'I Could Fall in Love' received generally positive response from music critics" (either "a generally positive response" or "generally positive responses")
  • "similarities with" → "similarities to"
  • "Teresa Jusino of Popmatters expressed that English-speaking music fans no longer remember Selena's name..." ("expressed the view that...")
  • "which has received positive praised by music critics." ("praise from", not "praised by". And is there any praise that is not positive?)

Please ping my talk when you're through (or if you require clarification) as I shan't be watching this page. Brianboulton (talk) 16:00, 11 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

  • There are still a few sources issues to be resolved. To summarise:
  • In a few cases you need to add a little more detail to your template entries, so that the nature of the source (film, tv episode, etc) is clear.
  • When newspapers or journal articles are cited, you should provide either a page reference or an online link to the archived text.
  • I don't know what advice Sandy gave you, but it is very common to include links to online services that require payment, and to add the (subscription required) template. It's then up to readers and/or researchers as to whether they wish to pay for access. Brianboulton (talk) 22:13, 15 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I tried searching through Sandy and Nikki's archives to see where that discussion is located to no luck. I am currently working on this task and finding those urls. Best, jonatalk to me 23:56, 17 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ref 21 Link not working
  • Ref 44 Link not working
  • Ref 56 Link is still crashing Firefox.
  • Ref 96 Link not working
  • Ref 106 Link is not working properly
  • It's now 103, still not working for me. Any luck with other users?
*Ref 124 needs a "US users only" note.

Brianboulton (talk) 20:33, 13 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

At Jona: Try archiving the sites he's having using WebCite and let's see if that works. Erick (talk) 20:21, 14 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Those that he mentioned were archived at WebCite but something is wrong with their system that it's not working. So I had to replaced them or removed them. Best, jonatalk to me 23:56, 17 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Delegate comment -- Pls just run the disambig link in the toolbox above and Ucucha's duplink checker, and resolve as necessary. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 01:12, 25 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure what you want me to do (unless it has been done)? Best, jonatalk to me 23:58, 29 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
He's asking you to look at the toolbox, which is on the right side of the FAC instructions; there's a disambiguation link checker that shows links which may not go to the intended place. This article looks clean on that front, from a check I did. Ian also wants you to check for repeated links in the article with a script by Ucucha; I haven't run the script myself, so I can't tell you if any duplicate links need removal here. Giants2008 (Talk) 01:09, 1 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry Jona, I missed your earlier query. Giants, tks for responding. Re. the dab check, yes it looks like a redirect message (which I'm not sure you can do anything about) rather than a dab, however pls review/rationalise the dup links as requested. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 01:22, 1 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose - The article is not ready. There are problems with the prose (examples below), duplicate links, and referencing issues:

  • This sentence does not make sense: " Because Thomas was unable to add any more vocals to a new song, "I Could Fall in Love", he performed an a cappella version to assist their understanding."
  • The song had no vocals to assist their understanding of the recording, therefore Thomas sang several lines of the song for them.
I still don't understand the sentence or the explanation. Graham Colm (talk) 18:00, 5 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
It was a demo with no vocals just instrumentals, demos are supposed to have vocals so the singer can learn the song for recording sessions. jonatalk to me 01:21, 7 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
So why not recast the sentence to make the meaning clear? Graham Colm (talk) 21:23, 8 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • This is not a sentence, there is no finite verb. "It remaining there for the following week."
  • There's a fused participle here: "with many critics naming them "confessional ballads".
Not fixed. Changing "naming" to "calling" does not correct the prose. Graham Colm (talk) 05:51, 5 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Fixed. jonatalk to me 01:21, 7 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Spanish guitar links to a disambiguation page.
  • Do we need "being" here? " Following the song's release, it rapidly developed into being a popular wedding song
  • Why are there so many citations here? ""I Could Fall in Love" is a mid-tempo[21] pop ballad[22] and R&B[21] song with soul,[9] pop, and soft rock influences.[23]"
See WP:BUNDLING and WP:CITECLUTTER Graham Colm (talk) 18:33, 5 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I'm sorry but I cannot remove sources as they claim the statements in that sentence. Best, jonatalk to me 01:21, 7 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I did not suggest that the sources be removed. Graham Colm (talk) 21:23, 8 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • The citation styles are inconsistent.
  • Please give an example.
Is the use of access dates consistent? Graham Colm (talk) 18:33, 5 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Fixed. jonatalk to me 01:21, 7 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • The duplicated links are: Arizona Daily Star, San Antonio Express-News, Billboard Hot 100, 1996 Tejano Music Awards and Top 40.

There's more work needed; this is not an FA standard article. Graham Colm (talk) 06:04, 2 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I don't like to be discouraging because the article is of a high standard, but it is not FA class. Problems remain, mainly with the prose, and another thorough copy-edit is required. I will give another two examples, but please do not assume that fixing these alone will resolve all the issues: *There are three problems here: "A Wichita Eagle writer expressed that Lopez' lip-sync of the recording was "hauntingly" and that it accumulated Selena's fans' "feelings". There is a missing possessive, an orphan adverb, and an odd word choice - accumulated.

  • Here, "American actress and singer Keke Palmer used her YouTube account to cover an acoustic version of "I Could Fall in Love". She didn't use her account to cover the song, she probably used it to publicize it.

As I have said, more work is required. Graham Colm (talk) 21:23, 8 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I just asked the GOCE member who c/e the article to revisit the article to resolve your concerns. Thanks for the review, jonatalk to me 22:11, 9 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Gareth completed his 9 months ago, and he hasn't edited for over a week, so I dare say it's OK for me to do this. Graham, I agree with your assessment and will do a complete edit. I realise this FAC has been alive for several weeks. If you need to archive it, go ahead, but if it's all right to hold, I'll probably need two days. Rgds, Simon. --Stfg (talk) 11:45, 10 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I've now completed it. The prose has changed substantially, and reviewers may wish to take a fresh look. I hope it's all right. --Stfg (talk) 19:34, 11 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry for the delay in responding. The prose is much improved but I am still concerned about the referencing. I cannot see what the problem is in using WP:BUNDLING to improve flow in the sentence with multiple citations. Graham Colm (talk) 06:04, 26 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I'll do this one. Best, jonatalk to me 13:46, 26 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I am having troubles with bundling the refs, not sure what I am doing wrong here. I fixed one other issue you spotted. Best, jonatalk to me 14:02, 26 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

After all this time at FAC I wouldn't have expected to find this kind of thing right at the start of the lead: ""I Could Fall in Love" is a song recorded by American singer Selena for her fifth studio album, Dreaming of You (1995). The song was released posthumously by EMI Latin on 26 June 1995. "I could fall in love" ...". And this inconsistency isn't just in the lead: "The first verse of "I could fall in love" implores the object of the singer's desire to walk away ...". Eric Corbett 12:11, 26 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Fixed. --Stfg (talk) 13:21, 26 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Delegate comment (2) -- My apologies for not looking this over last week; I note that no further comment or edits to the article have taken place sine 26 June. While there is support to promote, I'm afraid I'm not convinced that the article is ready for that, in spite of everyone's efforts. The citation bundling issue raised by Graham still appears unresolved, and there is a citation formatting error that seems to have lain unaddressed for over a week. Eric has pointed out prose issues extant after two months at FAC. From my own skim of the lead and first section:

  • It failed to acquire any certifications, despite Selena's murder several months earlier by her friend and former employee Yolanda Saldivar. I assume what is meant by "despite" is that her murder might have been expected to generate the sort of publicity and sympathy that normally guarantees a hit but, if so, this should be make clearer.
  • She recorded it in December 1994 at the The Bennett House -- I realise "The" is part of the name of the studio but we don't say "the The Rolling Stones" or "the The Smiths" do we, so why "the The Bennett House"?

While the recent copyedit no doubt improved things, these outstanding points indicate there's still more to do and we need to call a halt on this nom; pls take the usual two-week period following an archived nomination to revisit the prose throughout and the citation concerns. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 04:53, 6 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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