Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Hard (song)/archive1

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by SandyGeorgia 16:22, 24 October 2011 [1].

Hard (song)

Nominator(s): Calvin • ^NaNaNaC'mon! 23:31, 18 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I am nominating this for featured article because... the article has improved massively in the past two months and I have worked really hard on it for it to keep its green icon (even though it was far from it when I started editing the article). So, it has been through Good Article Reassessment, where multiple editors were involved with giving feedback and comments on how to improve the article. It has also been copy-edited by a GOCE editor. Thanks. Calvin • ^NaNaNaC'mon! 23:31, 18 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Cmt I added this page to the FAC queue. Please remember to do that the next time. Tbhotch.^™ Grammatically incorrect? Correct it! See terms and conditions. 06:16, 21 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, how did I not do that? Calvin • ^NaNaNaC'mon! 11:48, 21 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Quick comment

By quick scanning the article, it is littered with typos in the lead alone. [2]. What is corture? Please go over the article at once! --Efe (talk) 13:36, 21 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
OKay. It shouldn't be because it was just c/e by someone from the GOCE. Calvin • ^NaNaNaC'mon! 13:51, 21 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Source review - spotchecks not done. Nikkimaria (talk) 19:50, 21 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Don't need ellipses at the beginning of quotes
Double-check formatting of quotes within quotes
Check italicization in footnotes - shouldn't be italicizing things like "(US)"
Be consistent in whether publishers are in parentheses or not
FN 20, 21: formatting
What makes this a high-quality reliable source? This?
Use a consistent date format
Check wikilinking for consistency. Nikkimaria (talk) 19:50, 21 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - re:ellipses on quotes, see WP:ELLIPSIS, which sayeth: "Use an ellipsis if material is omitted in the course of a quotation, unless square brackets are used to gloss the quotation ... ". I admit I didn't put the spaces in correctly. I'll correct this v. soon. But not tonight. I deliberately left 'corture', 'militant horns' etc. - IDK what they mean either. :-) Baffle gab1978 (talk) 20:47, 21 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I've read that page, but it doesn't justify things like "...sexy". Material is not being omitted from the course of the quotation, as in "very...sexy", and it is implicit that the entire source is not included in the quote, so the initial ellipsis is redundant and unnecessary. Nikkimaria (talk) 21:02, 21 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Done all Nikki. And with regard to About.com, I saw you told Jivesh that if usage is keep to bare minimum (there is only one case of About.com in the article) then it is allowed? :P Calvin • ^NaNaNaC'mon! 21:18, 21 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Not quite. You must also demonstrate why the source meets WP:SPS, and that your usage is consistent with that rule. Nikkimaria (talk) 22:24, 21 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Fair comment, Nikkimaria; I'm now de-quoting single-word quotes as I find them - I think they're rather pointless. I thought you'd meant that no quotes should have ellipsis points. Baffle gab1978 (talk) 22:11, 21 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Oops, that wasn't what I meant. Having "sexy" is perfectly fine, but having "...sexy" is not. Nikkimaria (talk) 22:24, 21 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comment

An article about a song that makes no mention whatsoever of what the song's lyrics are actually about. What is Rihanna singing about? What/who is "hard"? Orane (talk) 06:10, 22 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I don't believe that Rihanna nor the writers or producers have ever elaborated upon the lyrical meaning. To be honest, I don't even know the meaning or how to interpret it. I'd make a guess at it showing how strong she is perhaps? With regard to her assault. But other than that, I have no idea. And the video doesn't give anything away either, as I'm pretty sure it's not about her wanting to join the army. Calvin • ^NaNaNaC'mon! 10:51, 22 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Calvin, are you sure that no music critic has done so? As far as i know, every song from an album has one. They are not necessarily done by the same critic. ★Jivesh 1205★ (talk / ♫♫Give 4 a try!!!♫♫) 12:50, 22 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I looked through loads of pages on google having searched "rihanna hard lyrical meaning" but didn't find anything. Calvin • ^NaNaNaC'mon! 13:24, 22 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Use the following source to make one:

[3]

I know it is not great but try to interpret it. The song is actually about Jay-Z in my opinion. ★Jivesh 1205★ (talk / ♫♫Give 4 a try!!!♫♫) 13:42, 22 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

That's already in the article. And it doesn't haven't anything to do with what the song means. The reviewer is simply saying that Rihanna adopts Jay's vocal stylisation in that line. Calvin • ^NaNaNaC'mon! 13:44, 22 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

She is actually referencing Jay-Z. Read this. ★Jivesh 1205★ (talk / ♫♫Give 4 a try!!!♫♫) 13:45, 22 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

★Jivesh 1205★ (talk / ♫♫Give 4 a try!!!♫♫) 13:47, 22 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

You will never get it in a line. You have to interpret the information from various sources. That how i always do it. ★Jivesh 1205★ (talk / ♫♫Give 4 a try!!!♫♫) 13:48, 22 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The USA Today and Digital Spy sources don't talk about Jay-Z at all, nor the lyrical content. Calvin • ^NaNaNaC'mon! 13:52, 22 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

They both do, Read and interpret

However, if one word describes how Rated R sounds, quite another encapsulates what it's about. Rihanna is all posture and swagger here, alternately presenting herself as "the hottest bitch in heels", a "gangster for life" and a gun-toting, grenade-pitching soldier. On 'Hard' she offers this as a terse CV summary: "Brilliant, resilient, fanmail from 27 million."

★Jivesh 1205★ (talk / ♫♫Give 4 a try!!!♫♫) 13:55, 22 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not really getting it from this Calvin • ^NaNaNaC'mon! 14:02, 22 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I will do it for you at night. (In 4 hours). ★Jivesh 1205★ (talk / ♫♫Give 4 a try!!!♫♫) 14:05, 22 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose by Wikipedian Penguin (see review below) (edit conflict)

(WP:LEAD and general comments)

" Recorded for the latter's fourth studio album " — Erroneous.
Done Calvin • ^NaNaNaC'mon!
" Stewart using " Avoid noun+ing.
Done Calvin • ^NaNaNaC'mon!
" Rihanna's vocal performance " → " The former's vocal performance "
Done Calvin • ^NaNaNaC'mon!
Please be consistent on whether double-digit numbers are written as numerals or words.
Done Calvin • ^NaNaNaC'mon!
" for on week seven weeks later "
Done Calvin • ^NaNaNaC'mon!
" "Hard" was Rihanna's thirteenth top-ten single on the Hot 100; making Rihanna, together with American R&B recording artist Beyoncé Knowles, the female artist with the most US top ten hits since 2000 " — Improper use of semi-colon.
Done Calvin • ^NaNaNaC'mon!
" peaking within the top ten in Canada " — I think "in" is good enough here.
Done Calvin • ^NaNaNaC'mon!
" The video's theme is one of "couture-military," with Rihanna commanding an army, and wearing several army inspired outfits. " — Unsourced quote, and do not link inside quotes, per MOS:QUOTE.
Sourced by Melina Matsoukas in the Music video section. Calvin • ^NaNaNaC'mon! 15:12, 22 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Still, it's a quote and needs sourcing, even if its in the lead. —WP:PENGUIN · ^{[ TALK ]} 15:26, 22 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Done Calvin • ^NaNaNaC'mon! 15:53, 22 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
" The song was performed ~~for the first time~~ at mentor Jay-Z's concert at UCLA Pauley Pavilion[,] as well as at the 2009 American Music Awards "
Done Calvin • ^NaNaNaC'mon!
Please add WP:NBSPs throughout the article, where needed.
I don't get what you mean by this? Calvin • ^NaNaNaC'mon!
An NBSP (non-breaking space) is a script kind of thing (sorry, I'm no computer expert) placed where a black space would go, and still leave a white space, but would not get disrupted when moving to the next line. See the link for a clearer explanation and click the edit button on Love the Way You Lie to see how it's done and find a date in it. —WP:PENGUIN · ^{[ TALK ]} 15:26, 22 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
It doesn't look any different. I don't see the point of it? Calvin • ^NaNaNaC'mon! 15:53, 22 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
It's invisible, but actually, it prevents the group of words/numbers to be broken to start a new line, preventing it from looking confusing. Don't argue with the all knowing Manual of style! :) —WP:PENGUIN · ^{[ TALK ]} 15:59, 22 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
How are you supposed to know where it is supposed to be used? Does FAC criteria stipulate this? Calvin • ^NaNaNaC'mon! 16:10, 22 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
WP:FACR wants compliance with the entire MOS. You use it inside dates, times [ex. 2:30(nbsp)pm], "number(nbsp)one", and number+unit of measurement (ex. 14(nbsp)kg). —WP:PENGUIN · ^{[ TALK ]} 16:29, 22 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Done
Avoid beginning multiple consecutive sentences with the same word.
Done Calvin • ^NaNaNaC'mon!
Remember our discussion on when to add end punctuation in image captions?
Done Calvin • ^NaNaNaC'mon!
Do not force size images, so that readers can adjust personal settings on their computer to how big they want them.
I don't know what you mean by this? They look fine and proportionate to me. Calvin • ^NaNaNaC'mon! 15:12, 22 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Do not add how many "px" you want the img to be, because readers should be allowed to set this using their own preferences. —WP:PENGUIN · ^{[ TALK ]} 15:26, 22 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Done Calvin • ^NaNaNaC'mon!
Not done. —WP:PENGUIN · ^{[ TALK ]} 16:04, 22 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Done Calvin • ^NaNaNaC'mon!
Not done. —WP:PENGUIN · ^{[ TALK ]} 16:48, 22 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
DONE! Calvin • ^NaNaNaC'mon! 16:52, 22 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

(Background and composition)

Watch comma use on first sentence.
Done Calvin • ^NaNaNaC'mon!
" .[2] However, "Hard" was chosen instead as the album's second single. " → " ; however, "Hard" was chosen instead.[2] "
Done Calvin • ^NaNaNaC'mon!
" "Hard" (The Remixes) were " "Were" or "was"?
Done Calvin • ^NaNaNaC'mon!
" ~~Musically,~~ "Hard" incorporates musical elements of hip hop and is four minutes and ten seconds in duration "
Done Calvin • ^NaNaNaC'mon!
" according to the digital music sheet published at musicnotes.com, " Publishing company?
You want EMI Publishing instead? Calvin • ^NaNaNaC'mon! 15:16, 22 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Yes. —WP:PENGUIN · ^{[ TALK ]} 15:26, 22 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Done Calvin • ^NaNaNaC'mon!

(Critical reception)

Watch for capitalization and italicization of "the" in the middle of sentences.
Done Calvin • ^NaNaNaC'mon!
" Young Jeezy," " — Wrong end punctuation.
Done Calvin • ^NaNaNaC'mon!
" Alexis Petridis of The Guardian called "Hard", and "Rude Boy" the highlights of Rated R " — Watch for comma use.
Done Calvin • ^NaNaNaC'mon!
Use {{' "}} when a subquote also ends the quote it is in, avoiding things such as '".
I've never used this so I don't get how to do it. Calvin • ^NaNaNaC'mon!
Saying "He said, 'I like Rihanna.'", looks confusing because you have an apostrophe next to a quotation, which looks like three apostrophes. Instead, He said, I like Rihanna.{{' "}} produces He said, 'I like Rihanna.'"
Done Calvin • ^NaNaNaC'mon! 15:59, 22 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
" [sic]] " → {{sic}}
Done Calvin • ^NaNaNaC'mon!
The verb "wrote" is usually followed by a comma instead of a colon.
Done Calvin • ^NaNaNaC'mon! 15:25, 22 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

(Chart performance)

"Hard" was " → " It was "
Done Calvin • ^NaNaNaC'mon!
" on March 6, 2010[17] reached number nine " — No comma?
Done Calvin • ^NaNaNaC'mon!
" the song charted in several countries ~~with downloads~~ after the release of the music video "
Done Calvin • ^NaNaNaC'mon!
" 16 January, 2010 "
Not sure what you want me to do here? Because there is a comma after 2010 in the article. Calvin • ^NaNaNaC'mon! 15:28, 22 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
No, because the date format is wrong. —WP:PENGUIN · ^{[ TALK ]} 15:36, 22 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Done Calvin • ^NaNaNaC'mon! 16:01, 22 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

(Music video)

" The music video for "Hard" was directed by Melina Matsoukas, and [was] filmed in December 2009 "
Done Calvin • ^NaNaNaC'mon!
" It was the first Rihanna video directed by Matsoukas, who directed " → " It was the first video Matsoukas directed for Rihanna; Matsoukas would direct "
Saying "Matsoukas would direct others including Rated R' singles, "Rude Boy" and "Rockstar 101"." doesn't make sense, it sounds like she would like to do it. I will re-phrase your suggestion. Calvin • ^NaNaNaC'mon!
" others including " — Noun+ing.
Done Calvin • ^NaNaNaC'mon!
" Rated R' " — Typo.
Done Calvin • ^NaNaNaC'mon!
" with Rihanna standing ", " black rectangles covering ", " with Rihanna walking ", " Rihanna commanding "
? Can you not be so vague in some of you comments please. Calvin • ^NaNaNaC'mon!
I think I have raised issues like these often enough for you to know what I am talking about. It's Noun plus -ing. —WP:PENGUIN · ^{[ TALK ]} 15:43, 22 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I know, but it save hassle. And I don't see how they are mean't to be re-worded. Calvin • ^NaNaNaC'mon! 16:04, 22 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Have you read WP:PLUSING yet? It's quite helpful. —WP:PENGUIN · ^{[ TALK ]} 16:29, 22 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
" Rihanna is shown gambling " → " She is shown gambling "
Done Calvin • ^NaNaNaC'mon!
" Rihanna wears a high-waisted black bikini, waving a large black flag with a white "R" in the middle, the same logo used on the album cover for Rated R and the single's artwork. : — Source?
Done Calvin • ^NaNaNaC'mon!
" different to her previous videos " — "To" or "from"?
Done Calvin • ^NaNaNaC'mon!
Commas vs. colons on "wrote".
Done Calvin • ^NaNaNaC'mon!
" and weapons of destruction to glamorize war, saying " — Comma after "saying".
Done Calvin • ^NaNaNaC'mon!

(Live performances)

" Gil Kaufman of MTV wrote " — WP:OVERLINK
Done Calvin • ^NaNaNaC'mon!
" Rihanna being "
I don't see what's wrong with this but I changed it anyway. Calvin • ^NaNaNaC'mon!
Repetitive use of "Hard".
Done Calvin • ^NaNaNaC'mon!
" Rihanna wore, " — Why comma?
Done. I don't know, it was done by a copy-editor. Calvin • ^NaNaNaC'mon! 15:44, 22 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

(Formats and track listing)

Singular "Formats", as there is only one listing.
Done Calvin • ^NaNaNaC'mon! 15:49, 22 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

(Credits and personnal)

Each person/group should be listed one by one. Don't have groups of names and say what they did.
Wouldn't that be really long? Calvin • ^NaNaNaC'mon! 15:49, 22 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
If it's too long, use columns. —WP:PENGUIN · ^{[ TALK ]} 15:50, 22 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Is it actual FAC criteria that they have to be listed individually? Calvin • ^NaNaNaC'mon! 16:10, 22 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
No, but it's a standard among song articles. Plus, you won't have to repeatedly mention Stewart and Nash. It is much more organized, and organization is necessary for FA standards. —WP:PENGUIN · ^{[ TALK ]} 13:29, 23 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

(Radio and release history)

UK release?
Can't find a link on iTunes. Calvin • ^NaNaNaC'mon! 15:49, 22 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Well, the lead says it was released in the UK, and we need a source to that. —WP:PENGUIN · ^{[ TALK ]} 15:50, 22 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I've removed it, but I could have sworn I included it somewhere in the article that it was released in August 2010. I definitely read it somewhere. Calvin • ^NaNaNaC'mon! 16:10, 22 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Not quite FA quality yet, as the prose needs tweaking and reads a bit sloppy in some areas. Images and media look good, and so do sources. I also noticed your heavy use of Noun plus -ing, and we have discussed this in WYT and S&M. Will I ever change to "Support"? The answer is 'of course' and when I feel that you have addressed issues raised by me and fellow reviewers. By the way, I LOVE the live performance images you used! —WP:PENGUIN · ^{[ TALK ]} 15:00, 22 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. Calvin • ^NaNaNaC'mon! 16:10, 22 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

(Sources and disambig links)

Checklinks reported two disambiguation links. [7]
Setlist FM is a grossly unreliable source.
FN 4: It's known simply as Apple. Remove "Inc" per Template:Citation#Simple_citation.
FN 12: Publisher?
FM 15: Time Inc. is the actual name of the company, not Time. See Template_talk:Citation#Inc..
FN 34: Remove "Inc".

—WP:PENGUIN · ^{[ TALK ]} 18:40, 23 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Done all. Also, for disambiguating Rated R, it is only linked once, and is linked correctly, so I don't know what to do about that. Calvin • ^NaNaNaC'mon! 11:45, 24 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Copyscape review - No issues were revealed by Copyscape searches. NB. This discussion page looks a right mess both in read and edit mode (particularly) mainly because of those silly signatures. They look unprofessional and will drive away potential reviewers. Graham Colm (talk) 12:26, 23 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

No it doesn't. Calvin • ^NaNaNaC'mon! 12:35, 23 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose - sorry. This is not far off the required FA standard but the prose needs more work. There are fused participles such as "with Rihanna commanding an army". Unlike Fowler, I don't object strongly to these as long as the meaning is clear, but the use of "with" as a connector is often clumsy. This is odd "with a metronome of 100 beats per minute". A metronome is a gadget. And, what is "nude-colored" as in "a nude-colored top"? I found this in the Lead and Body confusing, "Although the song was released as a single only in the US, it appeared on charts elsewhere" - album charts? The article uses many quotations, perhaps too many, and some are not particularly helpful. This one is almost indecipherable: "When I first heard the song, I was in Paris, Dream and Tricky, they flew out and played me the record. They played me a few [songs], but this one stuck out to me. It had such an arrogance to it, which is so far from who I am ... which is part of why I wanted to do it. It was fun. It was bragging. A lot of attitude. Young Jeezy was the perfect person for the topic of the song. Just the vibe of the song. I love, love, love his verse. He added so much more to the record". There is redundancy throughout the article and plain bad grammar, "the scene changes to daytime desert scene". I suggest an independent copy-edit – the prose needs work from an editor with strategic distance. Graham Colm (talk) 13:59, 23 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

It's already been through GAR where about 6 editors were involved in improving it, plus, it has been independently copy-edited by someone with "strategic distance", so it's can't be as bad as what you proclaim. And it's a song, so clearly about song charts. Calvin • ^NaNaNaC'mon! 14:11, 23 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry Calvin, the copy edits were not thorough enough, there are other errors like "as it's" and "the The". A successful GAR is not and indication of FA quality. Graham Colm (talk) 17:33, 23 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.