Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Edward Thomas Daniell/archive1

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was archived by Ian Rose via FACBot (talk) 30 July 2020 [1].

Edward Thomas Daniell

Nominator(s): Amitchell125 (talk) 16:13, 6 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about the Reverend E.T. Daniell, a talented young English artist who travelled around Turkey and the Middle East during the 1840s, but who died suddenly of malaria when abroad. I am very fond his evocative etchings and watercolours of Norfolk and the Middle East! Amitchell125 (talk) 16:13, 6 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Therapyisgood

Page ranges in references need ndashes if it's a page range (cf. 8 to 51)

Fixed. Amitchell125 (talk) 10:17, 7 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

External links might be a bit excessive, consider cutting.

Done. Amitchell125 (talk) 10:17, 7 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note 4 needs a reference.

Done. Amitchell125 (talk) 10:17, 7 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Files in the "Gallery" section need alt text for the vision impared. Therapyisgood (talk) 02:44, 7 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Fixed. Amitchell125 (talk) 10:17, 7 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Therapyisgood: Above suggestions completed. Amitchell125 (talk) 10:17, 7 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from L150: Hi, I reviewed this at GA! Great work - I haven't gone through the article line-by-line but here are my comments so far. L150 17:45, 17 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Did you consider alternating images left-to-right, as they're currently all on the right?

I've moved the images around a bit as suggested, let me know what you think. Amitchell125 (talk) 11:48, 18 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

"may have first begun when they were at school" - "first" is redundant in that sentence.

Fixed. Amitchell125 (talk) 11:50, 18 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

"One of Edward Daniell's friends was the writer Elizabeth" and "Edward Daniell's friendship with Turner" - is there a reason for using his first name and surname?

No, not really. Sentences amended accordingly. Amitchell125 (talk) 11:53, 18 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

"In the summer of 1832 Daniell went with friends from his days at Oxford on a walking trip of Scotland" - might be clearer to write "In the summer of 1832 Daniell and his friends from Oxford went on a walking trip.."

Sentence amended (and an error I spotted corrected). Amitchell125 (talk) 12:21, 18 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Is it necessary to use the conjunction "According to.." 11 times? For example, you could switch it up slightly: "Author Jane Thistlethwaite opined that Daniell's drawings and etchings.." or "XXXXX wrote/said/thought that.."

Down to three. Amitchell125 (talk) 13:10, 18 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Support - I'm pleased to support this article. It does require someone with an art background to cast their eyes over it, but I think it is nearly there. Thanks. L150 11:44, 2 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Mike Christie

I've copyedited; revert anything you disagree with.

~~other schools of painting had begun to form that associated with artists: I think this should be either "form that were associated with" or "form, associated with".~~

Fixed. Amitchell125 (talk) 13:36, 30 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The second and third paragraphs of the "Background" section need some restructuring: you mention the creation of the Norwich Society of Arts twice. I don't think you need to lose anything, just integrate it.

I have done a certain amount of rewording, but the Norwich School of painters was not the same as the Norwich Society of Artists. I may need to make that clearer. Amitchell125 (talk) 19:25, 30 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

What I was commenting on was the society -- you have The Norwich Society of Artists, which was founded in 1803...it was dissolved in 1833. in one paragraph, and The Norwich Society of Artists (1803–1833) in the next. Just cutting the parenthesis would probably do it. I was thinking the later mention could be moved up but I don't see an easy way to do it. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 21:21, 30 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Fixed. Amitchell125 (talk) 12:28, 1 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

In touring Europe, he was acting in a similar way to other wealthy young Englishmen of his day: a bit heavy-footed. How about "Wealthy young Englishman of Daniell's day often toured Europe: his travels through..."

Sentence amended, your version does sound better. Amitchell125 (talk) 19:28, 30 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

~~Long with his contemporaries from Oxford: not sure what is intended here. Do you mean he spent much of the time in Ireland with Denison and Head?~~

Not quite sure where Ireland crept in, so paragraph amended. Amitchell125 (talk) 19:34, 30 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

~~Daniell held a series of dinners from August to December 1839. Why is this worth mentioning? I see mention of his dinner parties in the "Friends and associates" section; perhaps that's enough?~~

Agreed: sentence removed. Amitchell125 (talk) 19:36, 30 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

He alone visited Selge, Sillyon, Marmara, Perga and Lyrbe. This implies that the earlier trips were in company, but that's not made clear. I'm not sure the distinction is worth pointing out, anyway; how about combining this with the previous sentence: "He copied inscriptions from monuments in Lycia, the Cibyratis, Pisidia and Pamphylia, visited Sillyon, Marmara, Perga and Lyrbe, and also collected coins"?

Done. Amitchell125 (talk) 19:40, 30 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Struck, but did you mean to drop those wikilinks? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 21:21, 30 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Oops. Amitchell125 (talk) 13:57, 1 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

explained how her friend taught her etching and showed her drawings to him: misphrased, I think; I read this as "her friend...showed her drawings to him". Perhaps "explained how her friend taught her etching and how she showed her drawings to him"?

Changed the sentence to help clarify it. Amitchell125 (talk) 19:44, 30 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

That's better, but now I reread it I don't think we need the "how". Perhaps "Daniell taught Rigby etching, and she showed him her drawings; a private letter from her to Frederick Beecheno, written in 1891, revealed the warmth of the friendship she and her future husband Charles Lock Eastlake felt for him before their marriage"? This makes the first part of the sentence more direct; it's no longer apparent that the letter is the source for that part of the sentence but I don't think that's important -- the citation will tell the reader, if they are curious. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 21:21, 30 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Done. Amitchell125 (talk) 14:02, 1 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

~~Why was Daniell's promotion of Blake's book of relevance to Linnell?~~

Explanation provided. Amitchell125 (talk) 20:22, 30 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

~~The two friends corresponded to each other regularly: redundant; "with" is more usual if you want to use this form, or you could be more concise and just say "corresponded regularly".~~

Thanks, done the latter. Amitchell125 (talk) 20:25, 30 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Of all the group of artists that Daniell was surrounded by during his years in London, Turner was considered by them the ablest. Awkward phrasing. Can we make this "Turner was considered, by the group of artists that Daniell was surrounded by during his years in London, to be the ablest among them"? Even that's still not very fluent. Or "Daniell's artistic circle considered Turner to be the ablest of their group"? That omits part of the original qualification, so I don't know if it would still be faithful to the source.

Used Hamilton to help get the phrasing right. Amitchell125 (talk) 20:40, 30 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

create a sense of space, a feeling of heat or cold, of poverty or plenty, with apparent of effort: a word must be missing from the quote here -- sounds like it should be "with apparent lack of effort", or something similar.

Sorted. Amitchell125 (talk) 20:41, 30 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

~~he deliberately selected a limited palette, for instance when he made painted freely on buff paper during his tours of the Middle East: looks like some copyediting debris here?~~

Sorted. Amitchell125 (talk) 20:47, 30 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

This looks very good, but I would be more comfortable supporting if one of our resident art experts took a look. You might try soliciting reviews from Ceoil, or Johnbod, or Iridescent, but anyone who knows fine arts (I know very little) would be helpful. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 17:37, 27 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Struck most points, a couple of minor issues left. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 21:21, 30 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Support, but I would like to see a review from someone with expertise in this area; I know Amitchell125 has asked Ceoil who would be an excellent choice. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 14:41, 1 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Coord note

I've added this to the source/image review page as well as the urgents list. @Therapyisgood: how are your concerns looking? --Ealdgyth (talk) 15:20, 7 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comments Support by Kaiser matias

It notes the surname was originally "Daniel"; is there any idea when it was changed?

Looking back at the source, it's not clear that the family themselves used 'Daniel' and not 'Daniell', so I've removed the note. Amitchell125 (talk) 12:43, 10 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

"Daniell's first wife, by whom he had a son and a daughter, had died in London in 1792." The way this is written sounds like it was Edward's first wife who died, not his father's. Consider using the first name here for clarity: "Sir Thomas' first wife..."

Done. Amitchell125 (talk) 12:47, 10 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

There is mention that Edward had a half-brother and sister; the brother, Earle, is accounted for as an adult, but is there anything more about the sister, even a name and whether she lived to adulthood?

I've added mentioned his half-sister Anne's marriage and that his half-brother was in the 12th Dragoons. Amitchell125 (talk) 14:45, 10 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

"In one of many letters he wrote about the subject, one that appeared in the Norwich Mercury in August 1830 referred to the "scandalous re-facing of the ancient keep"." This can be worded better: "One of the many letters he wrote about the subject appeared in the Norwich Mercury in August 1830, and referred to the "scandalous re-facing of the ancient keep."

Done. Amitchell125 (talk) 15:32, 10 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

"A memorial to Daniell can be seen in the church of St. Mary Coslany, Norwich." Is there any information about when the memorial was created, or anything to add to this? It's a short two-sentence paragraph, and would be nice to expand a bit if possible.

I'm not sure I'll be able to help here—the church is now redundant, and there are no records about it online. If I come across anything I'll add it to the article. Amitchell125 (talk) 17:20, 10 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

His family also provided a memorial tablet for the church in Antalya here he was buried, so I mentioned that. Amitchell125 (talk) 18:33, 10 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

"In his biography of Turner, the author James Hamilton states his opinion that 'he would have been able to supply...'" Can be worded better: "In his biography of Turner, author James Hamilton states that Daniel "would have been able to supply...". As it's Turner's book, it is clear it's his opinion, so no need to repeat that.

Done. Amitchell125 (talk) 17:24, 10 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

"... the etching revival personified later in the century by Seymour Haden and Whistler." Is there a reason no not give Whistler's full name?

Done. Amitchell125 (talk) 17:24, 10 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

There's a couple times where individuals are named with the "Dr." prefix. My understanding of MOS:DOC suggests that it isn't necessary to include that at all, so I'd recommend removing it. However if you keep them, ensure consistency (see: "Dr. Rita Severis" and "Dr Miklos Rajnai").

Fixed. Amitchell125 (talk) 18:20, 10 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

That's all I can see, though I'll admit I'm far from an art history expert. Interesting article, and like that it contains a lot of his artwork. Kaiser matias (talk) 19:51, 9 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Looks good now. Happy to support. Kaiser matias (talk) 18:39, 10 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Image review—pass

There is sandwiching in the "Career in the Church" section.

Sorted. Amitchell125 (talk) 09:43, 11 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

All images outside the gallery are public domain.
The gallery is unsuitable because there is no accompanying text explaining why these images are important or relevant. It would be more suitable for an article titled List of artworks by Edward Thomas Daniell or similar. (t · c) buidhe 23:00, 10 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Linked to a list of his works, gallery deleted. Amitchell125 (talk) 09:09, 11 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comments

"was not forced to earn his living from them" poor choice of words, did not have to perhaps. (t · c) buidhe 23:05, 10 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Fixed. Amitchell125 (talk) 09:35, 11 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

"it was notoriously difficult to get his agreement to be portrayed" Words like "notoriously" should be avoided for encyclopedic tone

Fixed. Amitchell125 (talk) 20:44, 12 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note starting "Alfred Story described Linnell's painting Noon..." note is too tangential to the subject

note now gone. Amitchell125 (talk) 20:46, 12 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Links to John Linnell target someone else

Ouch, links now amended. Amitchell125 (talk) 20:54, 12 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

You need to explain who Beecheno is. Currently the first mention of him states "Beecheno recalled that he was..." was Beecheno there? If not, how can he recall it? (t · c) buidhe 00:27, 12 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Sentence amended to clarify the issue raised. Amitchell125 (talk) 21:24, 12 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Source review

Numbering based on this version

75 and 76 are adjacent and cite the same source, should be combined

Done. Amitchell125 (talk) 08:17, 13 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

"A letter written in 1835 from Daniell to his old Oxford tutor Reverend Joseph Blanco White gives an indication of the friendship he still felt towards "his old coadjutor"." This is inappropriately cited to White's autobiography and must be rephrased or removed.

I tweaked the pages cited, and amended the sentence. Is that what you meant? Amitchell125 (talk) 08:38, 13 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Beecheno—appears to be someone with a close connection to the painter and inappropriate source for the blanket statement "Daniell was one of the foremost opponents of the proposed refacing."

I tweaked the sentence a little. I couldn't find much about Beecheno, but it seems he was born in Norwich, 12 years after Daniell's death in 1842, and would therefore have written about him as someone he never met. I've made edits to remove any impression that they knew each other. Amitchell125 (talk) 08:59, 13 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Entire paragraph starting "The outer shell of Norwich Castle's keep..." appears to give undue weight to a controversy that apparently isn't mentioned in any sources in the last century.

Paragraph now reduced in size, image taken out of the section. Amitchell125 (talk) 09:14, 13 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Article has an unusual number of sources more than a century old, but on the other hand the subject matter is non-controversial, and I am unable to find newer sources.

I'm pretty sure there aren't any more newer sources. Daniell's works are generally to be found in the British Museum (which has little to say about him that is not previously published) or in the Norwich Museums Collections (whose curators have included Daniell in their histories of the Norwich School of artists, and which I have used). Amitchell125 (talk) 09:34, 13 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

"University and Clerical Intelligence". The Standard. London. 28 November 1828. — page number or link?

Reference amended to include link and page number. Amitchell125 (talk) 09:55, 13 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Some of the sources in the bibliography are lacking identifiers (ISSN, OCLC, etc) such as "Gower, Ronald Sutherland (1902). Sir David Wilkie. London: G. Bell and Sons." and "White, Joseph Blanco (1845). The life of Joseph Blanco White. III. London: J. Chapman."

Done. Amitchell125 (talk) 10:06, 13 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

All the paywalled or registration required sources are already noted as such in the links, making the icons after the source redundant. (For instance Hamilton has a registration required icon AND a template after the citation stating (registration required)) It would be better to follow the style of the inline citations and simply use a plain link to indicate a freely accesible source.

Free access templates removed. Amitchell125 (talk) 10:10, 13 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Otherwise, citation format is acceptable. (t · c) buidhe 00:27, 12 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Another issue I just noticed: "revealed the warmth of the friendship she and her future husband Charles Lock Eastlake felt for him before their marriage"—is WP:OR, "interpretation of a primary source", as the source cited just reproduces the letter without any analysis, as far as I can tell. The quotation that follows seems distinctly undue—it hasn't been quoted or analyzed in any secondary source. Furthermore, the first sentence in that paragraph needs to be attributed, since it is just a claim made in a letter written decades after the fact and not supported by any secondary source.

Paragraph amended to address your concerns. Amitchell125 (talk) 15:57, 13 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I do think that the article should have a thorough spot check for appropriate use of sources before it is passed. (t · c) buidhe 10:56, 13 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Source review - spotchecks not done

Most of the second paragraph of "Death from malaria" is uncited

Now cited. Amitchell125 (talk) 07:03, 14 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Fn2 should use a more specific title

Title amended. Amitchell125 (talk) 11:46, 13 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I can't access FN26, and what makes it a high-quality reliable source?

FN26 listed its own sources, so I was able to replace it with a page from Oliver. Amitchell125 (talk) 12:05, 13 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

FN31 is missing page number

Done.Amitchell125 (talk) 10:48, 13 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Be consistent in whether page ranges are abbreviated

Checked. Amitchell125 (talk) 10:51, 13 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

FN46: website title is not needed

Fixed. Amitchell125 (talk) 10:58, 13 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

FN67 is missing volume

Sorted. Amitchell125 (talk) 12:15, 13 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Why is there an access date in FN68 and not FN67?

Sorted. Amitchell125 (talk) 12:19, 13 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

FN71: given website title should be listed as publisher

Fixed. Amitchell125 (talk) 12:22, 13 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

FN103: Issuu is the platform hosting a copy of this work - who's the actual publisher?

Sorted. Amitchell125 (talk) 12:31, 13 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Issuu should be credited using [{para|via}} if at all. Nikkimaria (talk) 11:57, 14 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I went for the 'if at all' option and took out the website name. Amitchell125 (talk) 07:39, 17 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Further reading should be a separate section rather than a subsection of Bibliography

Done. Amitchell125 (talk) 11:13, 13 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Who is Beecheno?

Sorted. Amitchell125 (talk) 11:14, 13 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

How does this source meet WP:SPS? Nikkimaria (talk) 11:57, 14 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I would say we're OK with Beecheno's work on Daniell. Frederick Richard Beecheno was a published historian who lived in Norwich. He wrote small published works like St Andrew's Church, Norwich for local consumption, and he is for instance listed in The Norfolk Antiquarian Miscellany pp. 38, 44, 45 as an author. His other published and privately printed works are listed here by Norfolk County Council (sorry if you can't access the link from outside the UK).

Binyon, Dickes, and in more recent years, Severis, Thistlethwaite and Moore all used Beecheno's Memoir when writing biographical details about Daniell, and other books list Beecheno's work in connection with Daniell, even though you have to go somewhere like the public library in Norwich to access a copy. Hope this helps. Amitchell125 (talk) 08:41, 17 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Be consistent in whether you include locations for books

Locations checked. Amitchell125 (talk) 11:24, 13 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

These should be consistently formatted. Nikkimaria (talk) 11:57, 14 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Done. Amitchell125 (talk) 10:23, 17 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Is the Duggan source a translation of an earlier work? Can you elaborate on the background for this work?

I don't follow you. Why are are your queries here relevant to improving the article? Amitchell125 (talk) 16:09, 13 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Ignore the above comment, as on second thoughts I thought it best to remove Duggan and use other sources. Amitchell125 (talk) 21:01, 13 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I notice many of the sources are quite old - is there no more recent literature on Daniell?

I will check again, but see reply to comment above ("I'm pretty sure there aren't any more newer sources...") Amitchell125 (talk) 11:29, 13 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

How does Severis meet WP:SCHOLARSHIP? Nikkimaria (talk) 23:18, 11 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I checked initially to see if her thesis is cited in the literature, and it is (it's in published books and journal articles, found via Google Books and JSTOR). Amitchell125 (talk) 12:42, 13 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Can you give some examples? Nikkimaria (talk) 11:57, 14 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I looked hard, panicked, but then realised I'd found the same information in Severis' 2000 book, after discovering her thesis—it was her book that was cited. Paragraph now amended to alter the quote slightly, and include refs from her book. The book is now listed in the Bibliography, replacing the thesis. I've replaced the map image with his watercolour of Cypress, and the problem you noticed should be sorted now. Amitchell125 (talk) 08:29, 15 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Cassianto

Saw this on Iridescent's talk page so thought I'd take a look. I've amended what I can as I've gone along with others listed below, which I couldn't.

Early life and education

"...where his drawing master was John Crome. He was taught etching..." -- Who, Daniell or Crome?

Daniell.

Is "vacations" a BrEng word? It sounds more AmEng.

Holidays used instead.

"... J.M.W. Turner, whom he greatly admired. He became involved in the art world..." -- Who, Daniell or Tuner?

Daniell.

Points sorted. Amitchell125 (talk) 06:43, 16 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

During 1829 and 1830 he spent

"During 1829 and 1830 he spent..." -- Who, John Sell or Daniell?

Daniell.

"In the summer of 1832 Daniell and two of his contemporaries from Oxford, George Denison and the author and politician Edmund Walker Head, went on a walking trip in Scotland, where he obtained valuable subject material" -- Who obtained this? We mention three people here.

Daniell.

Points sorted. Amitchell125 (talk) 06:51, 16 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Career in the Church

"by the elderly Bishop of Norwich" -- what does his age have to do with it?

Now just a bishop.

"On 2 June 1833, he was ordained..." -- new para, new noun.

Done. Amitchell125 (talk) 06:55, 16 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Tour of the Near East

New para, new noun.
"At the Turkish city of Smyrna he met Fellows..." -- New para, new noun

Both done. Amitchell125 (talk) 07:00, 16 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Death from Malaria

"During the journey he contracted malaria..." -- who did?

Daniell.

"...fell a victim to the malignant malaria fever..." -- No need for "malignant" here.

Not done, as the word is part of a quotation. Amitchell125 (talk) 07:04, 16 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Ah, I see. Cassianto^Talk 08:28, 16 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

"At Adalia, Purdie helped him to convalesce..." -- Who? New para, new noun.

Daniell.

"during the hottest part of the year." → "during the hottest time of the year."

My English is correct here, so left unchanged. Amitchell125 (talk) 07:09, 16 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

"He lost consciousness" -- who did? New para, new noun

Daniell.

"Forbes paid tribute to his friend" -- nice, but which one? New para, new noun.

Daniell.

Above points addressed. Amitchell125 (talk) 07:12, 16 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Friends and associates

"and with whom Daniell corresponded regularly." -- they were friends, so I would think they would correspond with one another. Also, "Norwich friend" is not great. I suggest moving Norwich to where the street is mentioned, if you must. But His location is rather unimportant, especially since you've already mentioned this.

Fixed.

"His friendships with Ninham and Joseph Stannard may have begun when they were at school." → "His friendships with Ninham and Joseph Stannard may have begun at school."

Done.

"Daniell was one of the best known patrons of the arts of his time" -- POV. I suggest you attribute it to someone.

Sorted. Amitchell125 (talk) 08:15, 16 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

J.M.W. Turner

"He was considered by Daniell's circle of artists in London to be their doyen" -- who was?

Turner's name now added. Amitchell125 (talk) 07:24, 16 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Artistic career

"In 1832 he exhibited..." New para, new noun
"Daniell served on bodies involved with the arts. He was elected as a Fellow of the Geological Society of London in 1835 and was elected as a committee member of the Society for the Encouragement of British Art in May 1837." -- elected/elected repetition

Both issues addressed. Amitchell125 (talk) 07:29, 16 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Etchings

"The British art historian Arthur Hind has said that his etchings" -- Who, we mention three people?

Done. Amitchell125 (talk) 07:32, 16 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

This was all I could see in a quick read through. You should really have had this peer reviewed before FAC, if I'm honest. It's certainly not up to FAC quality, let alone FA. I'll hold off on opposing for now, pending these changes. Cassianto^Talk 21:49, 15 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose by Ceoil

Its all very confusing, and the writing is a bit labored and old fashioned, raising concerns about use of sources.

...London. In London.. Pff.

Sorted. Amitchell125 (talk) 06:29, 26 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Their influence is apparent in Daniell's early etchings,[29] but he later became more affected by the works of J.M.W. Turner, whom Daniell greatly admired. Daniell... Too many instances of the word Daniell. This issue is rampant throughout the page.

I agree, but a previous commentator advised me to add Daniell's name all over the place, which is the main reason why there is now an issue. I'll work through the text again and replace where his name occurs to often. Amitchell125 (talk) 07:06, 26 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

the famous brothers Thomas and Chambers Hall wrote to the artist John Linnell - The famous brothers? why not just "brothers...."

Sentence looked accidentally corrupted, so I restored it, with 'famous' left out. Amitchell125 (talk) 06:42, 26 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

In April 1842 Spratt, Forbes and Daniell arrived overland at Antalya. Spratt and Forbes left the city on before Daniell, who left overland after his meeting with the Pasha.[58] Daniell visited Cyprus that year and painted his only extant watercolour of the island . Repetitive mention of Spratt and Forbes.

Fixed. Amitchell125 (talk) 06:44, 26 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

have edited re 'Larnaka, Cyprus, from the Sea' - which had been both names and described as untitled in a single sentence.
As a wealthy amateur, Daniell exhibited but did not have to earn a living from sales. - hard to take meaning from this as positioned in the lead

Sentence removed, as looking again, it seems to me the lead doesn't really need it. Amitchell125 (talk) 06:48, 26 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

These are eg only; article needs a lot of work yet. Ceoil (talk) 03:24, 26 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for fixes Amitchell125. Ceoil (talk) 06:50, 26 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Many thanks for the above comments Ceoil, they're much appreciated. Could you point me in the direction of improving the article to make it less confusing, etc. and in particular be specific about your concern over the sources? Amitchell125 (talk) 07:00, 26 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I think you are there on content but are in need of a skilled copy-editor to help you past the final post. Mostly of the issues I'm seeing are tense related, or re redundant phrasing, eg just landed on a random para and found this "He missed his ship—the ships having set sail the previous ". This kind of wording is isolated sure, but such repetition makes for heavy reading overall. Certainly wrt the article I know you have all the research and heavy lifting done, but before you get FA, would like to see more polish. Best of luck with that and thanks for bringing the page thus far. I do see myself supporting in a later nom. Ceoil (talk) 07:09, 26 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

ps, would ask for a view on a way forward from the likes of User:Gerda Arendt and User:Aza24 if I was you; both are highly capable editors inclined towards the humanities. Ceoil (talk) 07:19, 26 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I am pleasantly busy with company today, - the topic is interesting, hopefully later. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:57, 26 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Coord note (2)

Hi, I appreciate there's been support for promotion above but if experienced editors like Cass and Ceoil have serious concerns at this stage, necessitating in the latter's opinion a full copyedit, then I think we have to call a halt and ask that further improvements take place outside the FAC process. Even after copyediting I'd recommend a formal or informal Peer Review prior to another FAC nom, which should make for smoother sailing the second time round. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 12:11, 30 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Closing note: This candidate has been archived, but there may be a delay in bot processing of the close. Please see WP:FAC/ar, and leave the {{featured article candidates}} template in place on the talk page until the bot goes through. Ian Rose (talk) 12:11, 30 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.