Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Ben&Ben/archive1

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Gog the Mild via FACBot (talk) 20 March 2024 [1].

Ben&Ben

Nominator(s): Pseud 14 (talk) 23:53, 16 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

After tackling a Filipino actor BLP, back again with another musician bio. This time, I decided to start working on a band, instead of the usual solo artist BLP. Ben&Ben started as a duo formed by twin brothers Paolo and Miguel Benjamin Guico. They later expanded into a nine-member ensemble and have released an extended play and two studio albums. Their music is known for its anthemic quality and emotional engagement that appeals to a wide range of audiences. Their songs have been featured in films, television shows, and soon on theater. Regarded as prolific songwriters, they are also the most-streamed Filipino artist of all time on Spotify. Constructive criticism, in any form and from anyone, will be appreciated. Happy to address your comments and thanks to all who take the time to review. Pseud 14 (talk) 23:53, 16 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Placeholder

I will hopefully get time to look at this in the next couple of days....... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 16:09, 20 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comments

"percussions" should be "percussion"

Fixed

In the lead you have both "Ben&Ben are" and "Ben&Ben has". I'm not sure whether the norm in Filipino English is for band names to be considered singular or plural, but whichever it is should be used consistently

I missed this. I've changed it now so that it is consistent with the plural form throughout the article.

"Their inherent familiarity with music devices, such as fixing loudspeakers led" => "Their inherent familiarity with music devices, such as fixing loudspeakers, led"

Done

"They had been interested at a career in music" => "They had been interested in a career in music"

Done

"which infused folk music and its lyrics rooted from kundiman" => "which infused folk music and featured lyrics rooted in kundiman"
"the duo invited a small group musicians" => "the duo invited a small group of musicians"

Can't believe I missed this. Fixed

"Favorite Album of the Year at 2020 Awit Awards" => "Favorite Album of the Year at the 2020 Awit Awards"

And this...also fixed. Thanks for catching.

"experimenting with different narrative standpoints" - I don't really understand this and how it relates to the title, which is what the first half of the sentence was about

I have tweaked this so that the latter statement is specific to the production of the album. Hopefully that provides clarity, happy to revise if needed.

"regarded its sound a bold reinvention of Ben&Ben's artistry" => "regarded its sound as a bold reinvention of Ben&Ben's artistry"

Done

"all of whom appeared in the album" => "all of whom appeared on the album"

Done

The group photo caption isn't a full sentence so it doesn't need a full stop

Removed full stop

"Ben&Ben are active supporters of recycling and single-use products" - surely they are opposed to single-use products, rather than supporting them.....?

Totally my bad. You're right. Revised the sentence as well.

"Having surpassed more than two billion streams to date, Spotify has named Ben&Ben" => "Having surpassed more than two billion streams to date, Ben&Ben were named by Spotify"

Done

The concerts section is unsourced, plus is there great value in listing just the names of three tours, with no additional context?

I believe, from another review, that if the concerts are mentioned in the prose, it would be okay to list them without inline citations (I could be wrong). Having said that, I do agree that listing it is unnecessary, so this section has now been removed.

That's what I got - great work overall! -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 20:31, 22 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your time in reviewing ChrisTheDude! I have actioned all your comments. Let me know if I may have missed anything. Pseud 14 (talk) 21:30, 22 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 23:20, 22 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your support and edit as well. Pseud 14 (talk) 23:42, 22 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from ZooBlazer

Figured I should leave some comments here after coming to the article from your related FLC and seeing it was nominated for FAC. I also have an open FAC if you have time or interest in leaving comments. I hope to get more comments added soon, but here are a couple to start.

Is there a reason the instruments aren't linked in the lead?

My guess would be because the instruments are generally simple and easy to understand. I've referenced other FAs of bands such as U2, Pink Floyd, and Pearl Jam, and they all seem to not link the instruments in enclosures. Pseud 14 (talk) 20:22, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Does high-school need the dash? If that's how it is done when related to Philippine English or something, then never mind.

I believe you're right, I've dropped the dash. Pseud 14 (talk) 20:22, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comments part 2

Flip ref orders unless the later footnote has to be first. Example: They graduated from De La Salle in 2016 and formed The Benjamins,[4][1] and released their first effort, an eponymous extended play (EP), on December 17, 2016.[8][7] - Honestly, I'm not sure if it's just a personal preference or if it's even something worth worrying about at FAC/FLC, but mentioning it anyway.

In my experience, I think it's not an absolute rule, I do however tend to cite my references in the order where the primary citation comes first then the secondary citation(s) that support the sentence. If that makes sense.

Remove the kundiman link in the Musical style and themes section as it is marked as a DUPLINK.

Removed

There's a few instances of long quotes. Is it possible to cut some of them down a little? There's long ones for example in "Formation and early years" and "Breakthrough and success". To be fair, they're not long enough to cause issues with earwig or anything, so if they have to remain, there's no copyvio at least.

I have paraphrased the longer quote in the "Formation" section. I did keep that shorter one, which was a review. Hopefully that's fine and not a cause of concern.

Filipino musicians Chito Miranda, KZ Tandingan, Moira Dela Torre, Juan Karlos Labajo and Zild - Comma after Labajo to be consistent with similar instances in the article.

Added

"It usually starts with a song idea from a single songwriter ... It could be as bare as a single line, or a fully written piece ... After everyone hears it, if the songwriter doesn’t really have any specific ideas for how it’ll be arranged, each person brings in their own ideas to the table. - Missing a second quotation mark.

Added

being the most-streamed Filipino artist in 2020, 2021 and 2023 - Add a comma after 2021

Added. Thanks for catching all those punctuation lapses.

There is one more instance of high-school towards the beginning of the history section.

Missed that. Should be fixed now.

Image review from ZooBlazer - Passes

File:Ben&Ben in 2018 2.png - Use in infobox looks good, properly licensed, and has alt text.
File:Ben&Ben official logo (2022).webp - Use makes sense in the article and licensing looks good. However, I don't think "Refer to caption" is very useful as alt text.

I've change the alt text description. Hopefully that reads better. Pseud 14 (talk) 20:22, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

File:Steve Lillywhite during interview.jpg - Image use works in the article, properly licensed, and has alt text.
File:Pagtingin (Ben&Ben song - sample).ogg - Although not an image, I'm including it since it is a file. Sound sample, only 20 seconds long so no issues with length, properly licensed and sourced.
File:Photo featuring Ben&Ben members.png - Use makes sense in the article, properly licensed, and has alt text.

I'll try to add more prose comments soon. The image review just has one issue with the second image's alt text. -- ZooBlazer 19:18, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your initial comments and the image review ZooBlazer. All actioned and responses provided. Pseud 14 (talk) 20:22, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Image review passes and I left a few more comments above. -- ZooBlazer 21:36, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the additional comments ZooBlazer. I've provided my response and have actioned them. Let me know if there's anything I might have missed. Pseud 14 (talk) 22:28, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Just an FYI, the pings didn't work since you were pinging my talk page. With that said though, I'm happy with the changes, so support. -- ZooBlazer 22:53, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry about that, I might have copied it by mistake. I really appreciate how quickly you responded and also for doing the review. Pseud 14 (talk) 23:12, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

MyCat

Two albums and they're already "the most-streamed Filipino artist of all time on Spotify"? That is extremely impressive- let's see how this came to be

During this time, the duo worked with several different sound engineers and songwriters, including tribal leaders - including tribal leaders? To my knowledge, tribal leaders aren't engineers or songwriters- clarify their role here

Clarified that the tribe leaders were sources of inspiration. Added another source to support that as well.

The wordmark logo image should be moved down a paragraph, since the paragraph it's currently linked to details the time that they were still called The Benjamins

Thanks for catching. I've moved it to the next paragraph

Six of them have formally studied music - clarify "them": "Six of the additions had previously studied..."

Revised as suggested

Meanwhile, Cabugao is the only one - I don't think meanwhile is quite the right word here- "on the other hand" or "conversely" make more sense

Agreed and revised.

"Leaves", the EP's single - what EP? I know it's the one mentioned earlier, but it's so many sentence back that it's worth clarifying

Revised it as Ben&Ben EP (as it was self-titled)

which signaled that they had attracted a range of audiences - does this need to be said? To me, getting lots of streams sort of insinuates this...

Makes perfect sense. I've removed it.

They admire how the group have diversified their sound and explored many musical styles throughout their career: "From the breadth of themes they tackle in their songs, to the contrasts of their musical palette, all the way to making the most of music as a holistic experience" - because it quote isn't a complete sentence, it should not be linked with a colon: perhaps, "They admire how the group have diversified their sound and explored many musical styles throughout their career, including 'the breadth of themes...'"

Thanks for this, done per your suggestion.

The full names of the band members aren't needed here since they've been stated before- just using last names is cleaner and declutters the number of names. If anything, it may be helpful to restate their instruments

Done and used their last names instead.

Juan Karlos Labajo from the namesake band, - from his namesake band

Done

Subsequently, this led to the release of their EP which reflected a similar style - the musical style led to their EP's release? Weird phrasing- rework to make it more about the style, perhaps, "A similar style was implemented into their first EP..."

Now that I just read it, you're right. I've revised this line as suggested.

In solidarity, the band dedicated their 2018 single "Maybe the Night", which was - dedicated the single to whom?

Had a hard time trying not to use the term "LGBT Community" again, since it was dedicated to them. So I did a bit of tweaking, hopefully that reads better.

They have been known to advocate - why "have been known to"?

Revised this, in the present.

Pseud 14, that's all from me- excellent work! MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) (also not me) (still no) 15:25, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for your kind words and for providing your feedback MyCatIsAChonk. All comments actioned. Let me know if I may have missed anything. Pseud 14 (talk) 17:04, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support - got everything! MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) (also not me) (still no) 21:55, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your support and taking the time to review. Much appreciated. Pseud 14 (talk) 22:57, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Source review

Spot-check upon request. I am reviewing this version. What makes Bandwagon, Tempo and Wish 107.5 a reliable source? Other sources are things I have already seen on other Filipino entertainment articles, mostly news sources which I guess are OK as they seem to be pretty mainstream with no indication that they are fake news websites or the like. There are no biographies? Some of the sources sans author seem to be authored by the staff; is it worth noting? Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 08:43, 12 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Bandwagon is a company/website that covers music as well as entertainment verticals including film/television and gaming across Asia. It has been around for 13 years, and their website does provide an editorial team. Also, they have a pool of independent staff writers, such as Kara Bodegon who have written articles for Billboard Philippines and other publications, which I have referenced in some of my other articles. Their "About us" section also mentions that their work has been referenced by reputable publications such as The New York Times, Elle, and Teen Vogue.
Tempo is tabloid newspaper published under the Manila Bulletin Publishing Corporation, which circulates the Manila Bulletin, I understand that tabloid newspaper sources should be used with caution, and on a case by case basis so have replaced it with a higher quality source. Ref 71
Wish 107.5 is a radio station and streaming platform which operates in a similar vein as iHeartRadio. It has been around since 2014 and is considered one of the largest online radio platforms in the Philippines. Its content generally focuses on coverage of music both local and international, album reviews, and live events, among others, and is generally for uncontroversial and non-contentious material. It has also expanded in 2016, and has since held it's annual Wish 107.5 Music Awards (comparable to that of iHeartRadio Music Awards), I believe its circulation and presence within the music space in the Philippines is deemed reputable.
By biography, did you mean for each member? I generally followed the FA writing style for bands where their History/Formation section would have coverage about the founding members' or notable members' bios/career beginnings and discuss the band's formation. I've sourced out every available information that covered the brothers' bios, as well as any articles I could find about the rest of the members.
With regard to the news articles without authors, I thought about that and checked other BLP FAs which use news articles too. From what I've checked, I think in cases of news articles without an author name or press releases, it is assumed that it is written/published by the staff writer/correspondent, and the author / first and last name parameter is left blank.

Thanks for taking up the source review Jo-Jo Eumerus. I have provided my response to your questions on the reliability of the citations and changes made, as well as the two last points raised. Let me know if they are to your satisfaction or if anything needs changing. Pseud 14 (talk) 14:19, 12 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, I meant "biography" in the sense of whether anyone had published a book about Ben&Ben, either its member(s) or the group as a whole. The thing that makes me wonder about Wish 107.5 is that it's described as "the media arm of Members Church of God International" and I dunno if that is still reliable - sometimes "media arms" of organizations not in the news business serve advocacy. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 14:29, 12 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for clarifying Jo-Jo Eumerus. From what I've dug online and searching for scholarly or academic sources, there hasn't been a book published that discussed Ben&Ben or its members yet, it could be largely attributed to the fact that the band is fairly new, having been founded around 2016/2017. As for the second point, thanks for that perspective, I agree with the point you raised. I've replaced that source with a high quality article. Hopefully that is much more acceptable. Pseud 14 (talk) 15:10, 12 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Jo-Jo ? Gog the Mild (talk) 20:05, 17 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Nothing more to add from me, with the caveat that this isn't a field where I am deeply familiar with the saucing. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 08:50, 18 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Closing note: This candidate has been promoted, but there may be a delay in bot processing of the close. Please see WP:FAC/ar, and leave the {{featured article candidates}} template in place on the talk page until the bot goes through. Gog the Mild (talk) 19:34, 20 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.