Jump to content

Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Anna Filosofova/archive1

Add links
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Gog the Mild via FACBot (talk) 20 December 2024 [1].

Anna Filosofova

[edit]
Nominator(s): —Ganesha811 (talk) 19:15, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about Anna Filosofova, an early Russian feminist and activist. She was part of a group of three friends and allies known as the "triumvirate", alongside Maria Trubnikova and Nadezhda Stasova. Among other things, Filosofova pushed hard for women's education and was instrumental in creating university-standard courses open to women in the Russian Empire. She outlived her colleagues and became widely acclaimed after the 1905 Russian Revolution. The article underwent a GA review from Rusalkii in March.

The other two women's articles made it to FA earlier this year. The three articles have very similar sourcing, so any reviewers who participated in those ones may be interested in this nomination as well. Reviewers from the Trubnikova/Stasova articles will already be familiar with some of the content and most of the sources. —Ganesha811 (talk) 19:15, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

  • Don't use fixed px size
  • Fixed
  • File:Анна_Павловна_Философова.jpg needs a US tag
  • Added

Source review: passed

[edit]
Indeed, I reviewed Maria, but pretty much missed out on Nadezhda. The Sistas are in: and at the frontline.
Formatting is mostly fine. ISBNs are inconsistently laid out, no need to link locations (if you insist on it, link all); likewise publishers; likewise works themselves. Authors are all established historians (Central European, Pittsboig, Northwestern, McGill, Princeton) or independent scholars with reputable publishers. A search of academic databases reveals no obvious omissions from the canon—except slightly surprisingly, no Clements, Carlson or Worobec who surely would've been good for a punt—and nothing that jumps out as outremer. A slender and well-presented article, traits reflected in the sources used. Tight faded male arse. Decadence and anarchy. A certain style. Smile. 15:17, 27 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: I think the ISBNs are now consistent, and I've delinked the publisher locations. Thanks for the Carlson theosophy source - very interesting and provided a couple of new details which I've added. I don't think there's much in the Clements source that isn't already covered, and Worobec is in the article already - a chapter from it by Ruthchild is cite #2. Thanks for your review thus far. :) —Ganesha811 (talk) 16:00, 27 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Serial Number 54129, do you have any other comments? —Ganesha811 (talk) 17:23, 11 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Apologies, Ganesha811, and thanks for the ping. SerialNumber54129A New Face in Hell 18:07, 11 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Averageuntitleduser

[edit]

Happy to see this here! No major issues with structure or prose so far. As always, feel free to disagree with any suggestion:

  • "a number of years" — "several" or "multiple" may be simpler. This can be changed in the body too.
  • Adjusted as recommended.
  • "Born as Anna Pavlovna Diaghileva on 5 April 1837 in Saint Petersburg, she was from a rich and aristocratic family." — the sentence sort of alludes to her married surname, but doesn't fully commit, so I find it reads a bit oddly. I suggest simply: "Anna Pavlovna Diaghileva was born on 5 April 1837 in Saint Petersburg to a rich and aristocratic family."
  • Adjusted' as recommended.
  • Link "Saint Petersburg" in the first sentence and delink it in the very last one.
  • Fixed
  • "Her mother was named Anna Ivanovna and ran" — "was named" then "and" may not be necessary.
  • Fixed
  • "As was typical for aristocratic Russians, Diaghileva was educated at home, and later wrote that all she learned was 'French, German, and curtseying.'" — a semicolon might work better here: "Diaghileva was educated at home; she later..."
  • Fixed
  • "her health or her work" — second "her" can be removed.
  • Fixed
  • Link "serf" in the body too.
  • Fixed
  • "and life at the estate had a powerful effect on Filosofova" — "life at the estate" could refer to either the poor experiences of the serfs or Filosofova's witnessing of the serfs. I think the latter is intended, but could still be workshopped to be clearer.
  • "Upon the liberation of the serfs in 1861." — for absolute clarity, suggest something like: "Upon Russia's liberation of serfs in 1961".
  • Adjusted the whole paragraph to make things flow better and added the link - let me know if you think things are clearer now.
  • The second nihilist link may not be needed.
  • Removed
  • "Filosofova and her husband maintained a close relationship, even as her work sometimes resulted in setbacks for his governmental career; she did not wish to be subordinated, writing to him that 'to yield to you is beyond my power.'" — the two ideas here seem too distinct for a semicolon. Maybe a full stop?
  • Adjusted as recommended, good point.
  • "The triumvirate, alongside several others" — this could be understood as "alongside several other triumirates". I realize you also fixed this over at Nadezhda Stasova.
  • Adjusted as was done there.
  • "Filosofova was clear in her goal, as she once wrote to Anatoly Koni: 'giving women the opportunity for an autonomous path to employment and a morally and materially independent status.'" — the quote could be introduced more smoothly. Namely, "as she once wrote" is ambiguous and could mean "as she once expressed" or "as demonstrated by how she once wrote". I suggest: "Filosofova was clear in her goal, which she once expressed in a letter to Anatoly Koni: 'giving women the opportunity for an autonomous path to employment and a morally and materially independent status.'" Of course, there are many possibilites.
  • Adjusted as recommended.

Will review "Women's education" and "Exile and return" soon. I hope these comments are helpful! Averageuntitleduser (talk) 06:16, 14 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • "The Vladimirskii lectures, limited though they were, were shut down in 1875." — maybe: "The Vladimirskii lectures, [although/albeit/even if] limited, were..."
  • Adjusted - went with 'circumscribed' - how do you think that works?
  • Space between a period and reference in the second sentence of "Exile and return".
  • Fixed
  • May be worth adding that Wiesbaden is in Germany.
  • Added
  • She 'actively' took part in the Russian Revolution of 1905" — potential MOS:SCAREQUOTE issue. It may be best to remove the quotation marks or revise the sentence to use a longer quote attributed to Marianna. Or something else entirely. Even better if other sources describe her participation in more detail, though I imagine they don't.
  • Modified to remove the short quote, but I'm afraid you're correct that there's not much detail available - what's in Muravyeva is included, and most of the other sources don't cover this time period.
  • "feted" seems a bit uncommon, would "celebrated" work?
  • Adjusted as recommended.

I don't have much to say about the second half. @Ganesha811: fascinating article! Averageuntitleduser (talk) 17:24, 14 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Well-written and seemingly comprehensive. Support. Averageuntitleduser (talk) 20:52, 14 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Mike Christie

[edit]
  • "The three spent much of their lives working to advance the cause of women, leading the first organized feminist movement in the Russian Empire." What does "the first organized feminist movement" refer to? I don't think it can be the Society for Cheap Lodgings, because that appears to focus on the poor, not just women. If the Society was only for women, that's not clear from the article. Does this just refer to the fact that the triumvirate were seen, then or later, as the leaders of feminism? It's the word "organization" that's bothering me -- it implies there was a specific named group that they led.
  • "In early 1861, the incipient organization split in two": I don't think "incipient" is the right word here; the organization was not in the process of beginning to exist -- it had existed for over a year. Perhaps "young"?
  • What was the society named after the 1861 split? Presumably the two halves did not each retain the original name. And it sounds from the quote from Filosofova's letter that this version did focus just on helping women -- if so I think we should say so explicitly.
  • Comments and adjustments Fair points in the above 3 comments. I've rephrased the "organized" sentence and added a little detail to say and became leaders of the feminist movement in the Russian empire, although they did not describe themselves as feminists (per Stites) - very open to other alternatives. I also modified a cite to better support this broad claim. As to the Society, yes, it appears to have focused almost exclusively on women (and their children). I added a phrase and citation to Stites to reflect this. As to your points about its name and what it got up to between 1859 and 1861, Stites says it was engaged in "planning and experimentation", so I've added a sentence with that quote. As best I can tell from the other sources the triumvirate's organization continued to use the same name - I don't know what (if any) name the other organization had, or if it just faded away.
  • Additional comment: Going back over the sources, there was some good material from Stites that I hadn't incorporated, which I've now added to try to make clearer the roles of the triumvirate in the feminist movement. —Ganesha811 (talk) 19:06, 16 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Our article on the Bestuzhev Courses says that Filosofova was one of the driving forces behind their creation, but we don't say that here -- the article makes it sound as though they were entirely Tolstoy's idea. We also don't say that Filosofova or any of the triumvirate were involved in pressuring the government for the Vladimirskii lectures. As it stands the article makes it sound as though both were later outcomes that did not involve Filosofova; is that accurate?
  • Adjusted I've made some tweaks to make the women's roles clearer. Stites and Johanson both make clear that pressure on Tolstoy came from the feminists repeatedly over the years of compromises and back and forth. The article mentions Filosofova's role in persuading Milyutin to host some courses specifically, as well as her and Stasova's campaigning and organizing for the Bestuzhev courses. Per Muravyeva, they organized them and Bestuzhev was only the nominal head, with Stasova heading up the effort. It's sometimes hard to determine precisely who among the triumvirate (and the other feminists such as Konradi) did what when from the sources. However, Stasova was abroad 1874-1876 - it seems likely she came back and began organizing after the approval of the courses. Trubnikova was also abroad from 1869-76. Filosofova would have been the leading figure actually in Saint Petersburg. Muravyeva writes that "she" managed to get permission for the Bestuzhev courses in 1876, though the actual approval came from the Tsar via Tolstoy.
  • "Filosofova was elected chairman of the International Council of Women in 1899, attending its first meeting in London": do you mean "first London meeting"? It had met several times before this as far as I can tell.
  • Adjusted to simply say that she attended the London meeting - it's not very clear to me from the source.
  • "received deprecating letters": "deprecating" seems too weak a word for Purishkevich's tone. Perhaps "hostile"?
  • Adjusted as recommended.

-- Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 11:44, 16 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your comments - I should be able to get to them all today. —Ganesha811 (talk) 14:44, 16 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support. Fixes look good. A nice triumvirate of articles. Is there any chance of a parent article on the early Russian women's movement coming to FAC? Once the "leaf nodes" in a subject start to get filled in, I always wonder about the articles further up the tree, since that often means much of the heavy lifting has been done. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 19:04, 16 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you very much! I've thought about it, and copied some material over to the Feminism in Russia article, but that's an intimidatingly large subject to take on and I'm unfamiliar with the sources for anything before 1820 or after the 1905 Revolution. The "triumvirate" has been my main focus. A hypothetical Feminism in the Russian Empire article could work, but even then it would have to take into account the nihilists, the socialist/Marxist feminists, the serfs, etc... none of which I know much about. Maybe next year! —Ganesha811 (talk) 19:10, 16 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from mujinga

[edit]

I read this through a while back and it seems improved, so good work above everyone :)

  • "she made frequent visits to the Filosofov estate in Bezhanitsy" - could say where this is in russia? i found it helpful to look it up
  • Added that it's in Pskov Oblast.
  • "In the late 1850s, Filosofova met Maria Trubnikova through the latter's salon. Trubnikova gave Filosofova books on women's issues and discussed them with her, and Filosofova credited Trubnikova with helping develop her beliefs.[1][2] Filosofova later said of Trubnikova that she was "an angel, gentle and patient. She developed me, read with me. This was hard, since I didn't know anything."[2] Filosofova, Trubnikova, and Nadezhda Stasova became close friends and allies, and were referred to by their contemporaries as the "triumvirate".[1][4][5]" - the names get a bit repetitive, I'd suggest chopping some out, for example In the late 1850s, Filosofova went to Maria Trubnikova's salon. Trubnikova gave her books on women's issues and they discussed them. Filosofova credited Trubnikova with helping develop her beliefs.[1][2] She later said of Trubnikova that she was "an angel, gentle and patient. She developed me, read with me. This was hard, since I didn't know anything."[2] The two became close friends and allies together with Nadezhda Stasova, and were referred to by their contemporaries as the "triumvirate".[1][4][5]
  • Modified phrasing to make things clearer and reduce redundancy.
  • "It published a wide variety of books, including textbooks, scientific works and children's stories, such as Darwin's On the Origin of Species and Hans Christian Andersen's Fairy Tales" - re we talking Fairy Tales Told for Children. First Collection here or just his fairy tales more generally?
  • Comment: Stites just says "some of H.C. Andersen's didactic tales" while Kaufman says "European classics such as Hans Christian Andersen's fairy tales". In short, I'm not certain.
  • "In 1892 she joined the Saint Petersburg Committee for the Promotion of Literacy."- sorry for the nitpick but here and in some other places, there's no comma after the year whereas the article generally does seem to use one, so that should be regularised one way or the other
  • Adjusted to add commas where they were absent - I think I got them all.
  • Another nitpick - you occasionally use false title for example " in the words of historian Christine Johanson" whilst mostly not using it, so that should be regularised as well
  • Added articles to fix the issue.
  • is feminism not linked by design? Feminism in Russia is linked in lead and infobox but not the body
  • Added a link.
  • there's currently a mix of sentence case and title case in the references
  • Adjusted so they are all in title case.
  • Thanks for your comments thus far!

Drive-by comments

[edit]
  • Page ranges are needed for Rothchild 2009, Johanson 1987 and Engel 2000.
  • Added
  • Does Muravyeva et al have a publisher location?
  • Added (Budapest).
  • "she married Vladimir Filosofov at a young age; they had six children." The first sentence, and even paragraph, usually concerns itself with what the subject is notable for. This information, if it is felt that it should go in the lead at all would fit better in the middle or end of the second paragraph.
  • Comment Here I disagree. I've expanded the first sentence slightly to make her importance and "place in history" clearer, but the following two paragraphs of the lead work best in generally chronological order. It would be a bit awkward to try to fit this fact in elsewhere in the lead.
  • "the triumvirate successfully pushed government officials to allow higher education for women". Maybe "successfully pushed" → 'persuaded'?
  • Tweaked the phrasing here to "pressured" - let me know what you think.
  • "Vladimirskii courses and the Bestuzhev".. Why is Vladimirskii in italics and Bestuzhev not? And foreign language words in italics should use the langx template, not double apostrophes. Why the upper case C and lower case c inconsistency?
  • Comment: I've added the langx template. The larger point is very interesting - several of the sources seem to follow the same usage. A couple of differences that may account for the inconsistency; the Vladimirskii courses moved around a bit and were only called that after they settled at the Vladimir college, and it's essentially descriptive, just a Russian adjective applied to the term courses. They were not full classes, just public lectures by university professors, which may help account for why it's lower case. In contrast, the Bestuzhev courses where named after a person, and thus Bestuzhev is capitalized, and they were essentially a full four-year college curriculum, much more in-depth and institutionalized. —Ganesha811 (talk) 13:33, 20 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Gog the Mild (talk) 00:00, 20 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Edwininlondon

[edit]

Ahh, just when I wanted to post the comments below, Gog the Mild promotes the article. Oh well. In any case, this is what I wrote:

Nice to see another pioneer of the women's movement here at FAC. The article reads well. I made a few minor edits, and have just these points:

  • In the opening paragraph of the lead I miss any kind of indication of time. I'm not saying every sentence should have a year, but at least one I think. Perhaps add "in the late 1850s" to the bit about the salon.
  • We have Vladimirskii lectures, with italics and a lowercase l, but then we get Bestuzhev Courses, without italics and with uppercase C. And then in the lead we have Vladimirskii courses. Deliberately?
  • the Bestuzhev Courses courses ?
  • we have chairman first and in the next sentence chairwoman. Should it not be chairwoman twice?
  • fiftieth anniversary of Filosofova's career --> this puzzles me a bit. A career seems to me a stretch of time, not an event one can celebrate 50 years later.

That's all. Nice one. Edwininlondon (talk) 14:21, 20 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Apologies Edwininlondon, it had seemed done to me. Some good points there. (One raised by me too and addressed just above.) Ganesha811, could you copy EiL's comments to the article's talk page and address them there? Thanks. Gog the Mild (talk) 15:04, 20 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
In progress! Thanks to you both for your comments and improvements! —Ganesha811 (talk) 18:10, 20 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Gog the Mild is the bot delayed? I wonder if it may have missed than this one - it's been more than 24 hours and it's run a couple times since the discussion was closed. —Ganesha811 (talk) 04:19, 22 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
Retrieved from "https://wiki.riteme.site/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Featured_article_candidates/Anna_Filosofova/archive1&oldid=1264563689"