Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard/Archive 140
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Talk:Anglo-Saxon settlement_of_Britain
– General close. See comments for reasoning. | General close. This isn't starting well. Some of the parties don't want to engage in moderated discussion, and think that the filing party is engaging in original research. One editor made a minor change to the wording of the article. (The moderator hadn't explicitly forbidden that, but editing the article while discussing the article is always a distraction.) The filing editor won't answer a simple question, citing the minor edit, although the question, in the opinion of the moderator, is still valid. I won't deal with demands to restore an edit in order to discuss whether discussion can begin. The filing party's position does, at this point, appear to be original research, since they won't answer whether they have reliable sources. As a result, I have no choice but to close this. The parties are advised either to go back to the article talk page or to submit any specific content issues to a neutrally worded Request for Comments. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:22, 16 July 2016 (UTC) |
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Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Users involved
Dispute overview The section ‘Romano-Brittonic’ peoples’ fate in the south-east in the Wikipedia article, Anglo-Saxon Settlement of Britain, claims that there are two competing theories: (1) the natives were invaded, enslaved, and genocided and (2) the natives had “a strong Celtic contribution to Englishness.” The first theory was proposed by Edward Augustus Freeman, and the second was held by Grant Allen, an essayist. From the information given in the Wikipedia article, the theories of Freeman and Allen appear simultaneously valid. Since both theories are equally valid, the claim that there are two competing theories is false. Have you tried to resolve this previously? I have written a paper espousing my stance. How do you think we can help? Eliminate the word "competing", or explain why the theories are competing. If it cannot be shown that the theories are competing, the word "competing" should be eliminated. Summary of dispute by UrseliusPlease keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
I have replaced contentious use of the word "genocide" with 'extermination', and introduced the concept of 'forced resettlement', all of which is supported by the Freeman text. This can be seen here, in more archaic and child-friendly wording, on page 28: [1] The dispute is therefore non-existent. Urselius (talk) 13:53, 14 July 2016 (UTC) Perhaps I should clarify why I think that this is the case. The dispute seemed, as far as I can judge, to hinge on the contention that the word 'genocide' could mean less than 'overwhelmingly killed off'. The substituted word, 'extermination', has considerably less ambiguity. Therefore, the assertion that the Britons were exterminated or forcibly expelled cannot be reconciled with any evidence showing the large-scale, or majority presence of native British DNA in the present population of England. It is now made limpidly clear within the article that the two viewpoints are entirely competing and mutually irreconcilable, with no possibility of the use of sophistry to make any agreement between them. Urselius (talk) 18:36, 14 July 2016 (UTC) Summary of dispute by MacrakisQuibbling about this is silly, when the entire section needs to be rewritten. --Macrakis (talk) 14:56, 14 July 2016 (UTC) Agreed with Johnbod: Gordon410 has demonstrated that he doesn't really understand the current literature, or how Wikipedia works, despite many attempts to work with him on Talk. This Dispute Resolution Notice is unproductive. --Macrakis (talk) 19:13, 14 July 2016 (UTC) Summary of dispute by J BeakePlease keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
Summary of dispute by JohnbodSince April this new user has been posting very long screeds to the talk page, though the points he has argued about have shifted. This is almost the only page he has edited. He has suggested a couple of drafts, which were wholly unsuitable, and among other things used primary sources as WP:RS, and failed to use the extensive modern literature. Many of the editors watching the page are (unlike Gordon410 (talk · contribs) or me) pretty familiar with the current literature, and have responded very patiently to him, causing him to relocate his problem. His comment above "Since both theories are equally valid, the claim that there are two competing theories is false," seems clearly wrong, and the balance between expulsion or eradication and assimilation is exactly the sort of question that leads to a good, long-running academic controversy, which I think is what has happened. No doubt the whole, much argued-over, article could be improved, but Gordon410's complaints seem without merit. Johnbod (talk) 16:31, 14 July 2016 (UTC) Summary of dispute by JhealdPlease keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
Summary of dispute by Florian BlaschkeIt boggles my mind how this portrayal of Anglo-Saxon history can be misunderstood; it's a crystal-clear extermination narrative (as was still the overwhelmingly predominant narrative when Tolkien wrote English and Welsh), based on the well-known linguistic argument, and completely incompatible with the assimilation hypothesis. (True, this author at least does allow for some minor admixture, but he dismisses it as ultimately unimportant.) Frankly, there's some serious comprehension issue here if you think these can somehow be reconciled. More importantly, it's portrayed as a controversy throughout the academic literature. It's not our call to engage in WP:OR and tell researchers that they have no clue what they are talking about and there's no reason to argue. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 18:35, 14 July 2016 (UTC) Summary of dispute by The Four DeucesPlease keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
Talk:Anglo-Saxon settlement_of_Britain discussionPlease keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
First statement by moderatorI am tentatively opening this case in order to determine whether a full opening will be useful. Be civil and concise. Comment on content, not contributors. Will each of the editors please state whether they are willing to participate in moderated discussion? Second, will each party who is willing to engage in moderated discussion (or even may be willing) please state in one paragraph what they think the issues are? Third, it appears that the filing party disagrees with the consensus that there is an academic controversy about the nature and extent of the Anglo-Saxon settlement of Britain, and says that there really isn't an issue. The following questions are only for the filing party. Is that an accurate summary? Is that statement, itself, based on reliable sources? That is, do some historians say that there isn't a controversy? Robert McClenon (talk) 02:26, 15 July 2016 (UTC)
First statements by editorsFirst I would say that if this process were in a court of law, it would be classed as 'vexatious litigation'. The dispute, such as it is, is between two viewpoints: 1) that the polar extremes in published scholarly analysis of what happened in the ethnogenesis of the English people can be reconciled, and 2) that these extremes cannot be reconciled. Those opposing a reconciliation of the extremes can merely indicate the sources themselves and appeal to the logic of the situation. Those supporting a reconciliation do so by the use of novel syntheses derived from selective reading of some sources, which amounts to original research. It is obvious that those scholars who have advocated the extermination, or near-extermination of the native British by incoming Anglo-Saxons did not mean to imply that any considerable proportion of modern English ancestry is derived from the native British. Conversely, those scholars who support the presence of a substantial, or majority, native British ancestry for the modern English people equally obviously oppose the assertion that any programme of extermination or forced expulsion of the native people of Britain ever happened. I hope that I do not have to comment on this matter ever again. Urselius (talk) 07:31, 15 July 2016 (UTC)
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Fairchild Republic_A-10_Thunderbolt_II
– General close. See comments for reasoning. | Two of the three involved parties have refused to participate; therefore, there is no other option for DRN but to close this case. Atsme📞📧 16:58, 4 July 2016 (UTC) |
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Have you discussed this on a talk page? Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Users involved
Dispute overview There is a longstanding version of the article. Maury Markowitz has removed almost all content in the article about the A-10's predecessor, the development of aircraft like the A-10, any mention of the design influences of the A-10, content about how the air force came up with the requirements for the A-X program and the A-10 design. Along with being common sense this sort of background information can be found on other high quality pages like the F-4 phantom page and the su-25 page. Any attempt to return the article to the status quo is shortly reverted, demonstrably with the changes not even being read, just as an automatic reflex apparently. Have you tried to resolve this previously? I brought this issue up on the talk page. Waited a few days. Nobody objected. Then I reverted the changes.
How do you think we can help? A lot of the dispute seems to center around a breakdown of communication. At times I ask a series of leading rhetorical questions. At other times I simply state that the article should cover the '45 ww2 A1 because it's the direct predecessor of the A10, and because the AX designs, including the A10 designs were measured directly against the A1. I mention that other articles like the F4 and Su25 article have a similar format. Bilcat claims not to understand, communications have broken down Moderator opening statementI've accepted this case as moderator and have reviewed the FE's statement. Awaiting statement from BilCat to proceed. Atsme📞📧 14:17, 4 July 2016 (UTC) Summary of dispute by BilCatPlease keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
As I've told TTT twice already, I'm not participating in this, but he went ahead with it anyway. My objections are detailed on the article's talk page. Thanks. - BilCat (talk) 15:53, 4 July 2016 (UTC) Summary of dispute by Maury MarkowitzAccording to the nom's own statment, I was not involved in this dispute. This is correct, as I only learned there was any discussion on the topic after this DRN was already in-flight, and had no communications with the nom before the DRN was already up. As such, I believe I should bow out of this process. Maury Markowitz (talk) 00:44, 3 July 2016 (UTC) Fairchild Republic_A-10_Thunderbolt_II discussionPlease keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
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Talk:B. Alan_Wallace
– General close. See comments for reasoning. | Withdrawn by filing party, without prejudice to being refiled if needed. — TransporterMan (TALK) 20:42, 17 July 2016 (UTC) |
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Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Users involved Dispute overview The article claimed that B. Alan Wallace "cites quantum mechanics along with paranormal phenomena such as clairvoyance and extrasensory perception" as evidence for a certain aspect of his proposed theory of consciousness, namely what he calls substrate consciousness. I haven't found any such statement in any of his writings or speeches, although he does sometimes reference quantum mechanics and paranormal phenomena, eg. when criticizing reductive materialism* or discussing other aspects of this theory. Unfortunately, the source given in the article (a blog post by Steven Novella) also mixes these things up and makes this claim, without providing anything to back it up. I pointed it out to the other editor involved and asked for a primary source (eg. an interview or book by Wallace), but he insists that it is my obligation to supply a source to contradict Novella. This is pretty much impossible, as it would have to imply that Wallace never stated what Novella says he did, which is a very specific claim. I also don't think Wikipedia requires providing contradicting sources as the only possible justification for deletions. I replaced the controversial ciaim with another, which is also supported by sources in my opinion, but the other editor disagrees with that. He also has a problem with the phrase "a concept originating in Buddhism", even though it is sourced (see discussion for details). *Note: criticizing reductive materialism doesn't count as supporting this particular theory of consciousness IMHO, as there are many nonreductive accounts of consciousness. It would be extremely imprecise for the article to claim that. Have you tried to resolve this previously? None outside of extensive discussion with the other editor (with no consensus in sight). How do you think we can help? Read the talk page, express your opinion on the points mentioned. Summary of dispute by ManulPlease keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
Talk:B. Alan_Wallace discussionPlease keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
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ill-considered accusations of impropriety
– General close. See comments for reasoning. | Closed as conduct dispute. Report incivility, including allegations of sockpuppetry, to WP:ANI. Report actual use of sockpuppets to WP:SPI. This forum is for content disputes. Robert McClenon (talk) 17:53, 22 July 2016 (UTC) |
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Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page here. Location of dispute Users involved Dispute overview In a public forum, Bolter21 accused me of using socks. "He is obviously using socks..." As someone rather new to Wikipedia, I'm trying to understand the policies, and to follow the advice given. According to WP:IUC1.(c), ill-considered accusations of impropriety, Bolter21 clearly crossed that line. Per the same article's advice, I gave Bolter21 the opportunity to correct his/her good-faith mistake, but s/he again reasserted his/her original accusation: "I will apologize to a suspected sockmaster." (I think s/he meant to have a question mark.) Again, following the article's procedures, and prior to raising this to AE, I am filing this dispute resolution. Have you tried to resolve this previously? None. How do you think we can help? One of us is wrong and I'm interested in dispute resolution's take. Summary of dispute by Bolter21Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
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Talk:SIG MCX#Criminal Use
– General close. See comments for reasoning. | General close. There are too many comments on contributors, and there doesn't appear to be much interest in sticking to a discussion of content. If the editors do want to discuss content only, they may request formal mediation, where a trained mediator may be able to demand that they stick absolutely to content. Alternatively, if there is a content issue, a Request for Comments can be published. Since discretionary sanctions apply to any discussion of firearms legislation, any conduct issues should probably be taken to arbitration enforcement. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:46, 25 July 2016 (UTC) |
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Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Users involved
Dispute overview There is a dispute over whether to mention the 2016 Orlando nightclub shooting, the worst mass shooting in modern US history, in the article about the main weapon used, the SIG MCX. The weapon's use has been discussed in many reliable, mainstream sources, has affected the sucess of the manufacturer, and has been a factor in the passage of gun control legislation. The MCX article was only created following the shooting, and the weapon is not especially notable for anything else. No one has suggested any compromise text.
Have you tried to resolve this previously? There has been talk page discussion. How do you think we can help? An agreement on how WP:DUE should be applied to article content would be helpful.
Summary of dispute by Faceless EnemyPlease keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
Summary of dispute by Miguel EscopetaPlease keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
Summary of dispute by Herr Gruber
Summary of dispute by RunnyAmigaTo me, there are two questions about weight and notability that, if answered fairly, mean this whole thing will stay stalled. There's a solution but it's not this infinite back-and-forth between everybody listed here. 1. Had the MCX not been Mateen's primary gun, would it get an article? Felsic2 seems to believe no; I disagree. There are reviews from reliable publications (Guns and Ammo, Gun Digest, etc.) that ought to be enough to say it's notable. That the MCX didn't have an article until shortly after the shooting proves little except how behind Wikipedia is on this topic. 2. Had Mateen's primary gun been an obscure, rare gun built by a boutique company, would it get an article? Consensus seems to be no; I disagree. This discussion can get grounded in policy until it's dust yet it would still be strange that a gun that suddenly faced publicity like this wouldn't be considered notable. And if this is correct, then so is Felsic2: it makes no sense that this media firestorm doesn't get a word. This whole thing could have been avoided if Wikipedia had a few high-output editors who specialize in firearms. I don't know if it's possible to recruit people like that but if it is, we should. Barring that, the encyclopedia will suffer because the SIG MCX article, and probably lots of others like it, should have been created long before June 20. That said, I moved away from that discussion primarily because the pile-on by (mostly) Herr Gruber, Miguel Escopeta, and Thomas.W was, for lack of a better phrase, fucking gross. (Here's a microcosm: "[t]rying to cheat your way around the WP:GUN policy," "fanboy cruft," "you're just a big time sink for other editors..." Do any of you actually read this shit before you post it?) Even with this escalation to dispute resolution, it's inevitable that these editors are about to come in, re-state everything, refuse to compromise, throw bombs, and accomplish nothing. RunnyAmiga (talk) 16:03, 22 July 2016 (UTC)
Summary of dispute by DHeywardPlease keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
Summary of dispute by TherubiconPlease keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
Summary of dispute by Thomas.WI'll write a longer comment tomorrow, when I expect to have more time, but I want to point out that this isn't just about the SIG MCX but just as much about the AR-15, where Felsic2 has been pushing the exact same agenda for quite some time now, refusing to listen to what other editors say, refusing to accept that other editors don't share their opinion, and either not being able to understand what they're being told when pointed to policies (in this case primarily WP:UNDUE and WP:BALASPS), or not wanting to understand what they're being told. Just like on SIG MCX. Making it, IMHO, a clear case of both tendentious editing and refusal to get the point. Thomas.W talk 19:15, 23 July 2016 (UTC)
Talk:SIG MCX#Criminal Use discussionPlease keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
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Talk:Capital punishment#Blanket deletion.
– General close. See comments for reasoning. | Both involved editors, including the one who filed the case, have refused to participate. I do not recommend formal mediation, because it seems likely that they will refuse to participate again. It is not clear whether the issue has been resolved. If it hasn't, I recommend an RFC. KSFTC 17:34, 16 July 2016 (UTC) |
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Have you discussed this on a talk page? Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Users involved Dispute overview Signedzzz deleted all changes I made to two sections about modern-day public opinion and contemporary era that were not previously opposed by any other user. I asked for a third opinion because he refused to give any explanation for these sections (we engaged in discussion previously only for other issues I don’t bring here, which are the sections about the Tang Dynasty and deterrence). Thanks to the third opinion intervention, I understood that some changes I made to the contemporary era were badly sourced. But I still believe the current versions of these two sections restored by Signedzzz are worse, and contain unsourced materials, while Signedzzz believes that "none" of the changes I propose are "an improvement". Have you tried to resolve this previously? Yes, Vanamonde93 came for third opinion. He "strongly" recommended me to make a list of my proposals so we can "work through them", but after I published only the proposals for modern-day public opinion, Signedzzz contended "Urutine32, you know none of this is going in the article. In fact it is probably enough to get you banned from editing. Please stop wasting my time." After that, Vanamonde93 declined to further intervene, and suggested me to put the issue to this board in his talk page. How do you think we can help? Help me to known why Signedzzz opposes the changes I propose, especially for the section about modern-day public opinion, so I can make the necessary changes. Summary of dispute by SignedzzzPlease keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
(Redacted) @Signedzzz: Again, this noticeboard is for content disputes only. Personal attacks are never allowed on Wikipedia, and they are especially unhelpful in dispute resolution. If you are willing to participate, summarize the dispute here without making personal attacks. KSFTC 21:22, 11 July 2016 (UTC)
Talk:Capital punishment#Blanket deletion. discussionPlease keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
There has been some discussion on the talk page, and the other involved user has been notified. Signedzzz, if you are willing to participate in this dispute resolution, the case can be opened. If you are, summarize the dispute in the labeled section above. Some of this dispute seems to be about user conduct. That part will not be discussed here. KSFTC 11:05, 11 July 2016 (UTC)
@Signedzzz: You commented above, but you have not summarized the dispute to be discussed here, which is about content. If you are not willing to participate in this discussion, let me know. KSFTC 22:30, 11 July 2016 (UTC)
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Stoney (album)
– General close. See comments for reasoning. | Procedural close as not a proper topic for DRN as a deletion question. The proper forum at this point is Articles for deletion. Speedy deletion as A7 was requested, and was disputed. Proposed deletion, which is for uncontroversial deletions, was then requested, and the tag was also removed. The second application of the PROD tag to the article was incorrect. The second removal of the PROD tag does not count toward 3RR, but 3RR isn't applicable anyway, in my opinion, because speedy deletion and proposed deletion are two different issues. The next step for the filing editor, if they think that the article should be deleted, is Articles for deletion. DRN doesn't handle issues for which there is another forum, and AFD is another forum. Robert McClenon (talk) 17:54, 25 July 2016 (UTC) |
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Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Users involved Dispute overview Patrolling (I'm new) a put CSD on the article for Wikipedia:Notability_(music) not yet knowing about #Unreleased_material yet. Reverted by Jax 0677. I looked around for options and went with PROD hoping for involvement of other editors. Jax 0677 reverted that and I reverted his once. Now he has 3R by reverting again. Have you tried to resolve this previously? Originally patrolled and CSD, reverted by Jax 0677, PROD reverted by Jax 0677, PROD again now 3R by Jax 0677. Jax 0677 says he believes it is a valid redirect search term, whatever that means. I say it's really advertising and fails on Wikipedia:Notability_(music)#Unreleased_material. How do you think we can help? Either explain to me why it shouldn't be CSD, really, on Wikipedia:Notability_(music)#Unreleased_material or to me why it should stand. Summary of dispute by Jax 0677WP:3RR states "An editor must not perform more than three reverts on a single page". I performed exactly three reverts on Stoney (album). The {{PROD}} template, which was placed on the article twice states, "If this template is removed, do not replace it". I believe that reverting the PROD template twice involves reverting vandalism, as the article can be taken to WP:AFD. I am claiming Stoney (album) to be a valid search term. Additionally, I was not given the correct link to this article on my Talk Page. --Jax 0677 (talk) 17:07, 25 July 2016 (UTC) Stoney (album) discussionPlease keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
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Talk:Gotthard Base Tunnel#popular intiatives success
– General close. See comments for reasoning. | Procedural close. The filing party has failed to notify the other editor of this case. The filing party may refile this thread without prejudice after providing proper notice to all other editors. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:52, 30 July 2016 (UTC) |
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Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute
Users involved Dispute overview User:John removed one single term (surprisingly, plus its reasoning as a note and a related citation) from a phrase in Gotthard Base Tunnel#Politics about the success of so-called popular initiatives in Switzerland, in particular the one about the so-called Alps Initiative. In a first attempt User:John claimed that it was violating NPOV. I made clear this is not the case, since it is common knowledge in Swiss politics, and actually citable from many sources. I tried to improve the explanation, why it is surprisingly (see improved, but currently removed note). Then he has undone it with the claim that it may be SYNTH. However, again without any reasoning. I asked him explicitly to add his reasoning/argumentation, but he refused to do so. Again, I further tried to improve the reasoning for the usage of this term. Now, he accuses me not to understand the principles of WP, which is not only – pardon me - arrogant, but also attacking me personally instead of providing a reasoning to the subject. I also ask him to make explicit what is actually wrong or what he does not understand. But he consistently refuses to do so and undoes every change, nevertheless. I think, this is explicitly questionable for a such an old contributor and even more so for a sysop! The text of dispute is the following: surprisingly<ref group=note>Despite the recommendation by the [[Swiss Federal Council|Federal Council]] from 12 February 1992 to decline the intiative without any counterproposal, and despite the parliamentary decisive recommendation (both chambers) from 18 June 1993 to decline the initiative. To a very large scale, the populace usually follows the executive's and/or parliamentary recommendations about any proposal. Additionally, federal popular initiatives are seldom successful, about 1 in 10, therefore its success is even more remarkable, despite the low majority!</ref> References to support the explanation are given in the text. Have you tried to resolve this previously? See the dispute overview above. How do you think we can help? Please make clear to User:John, a) how reasoning works, b) that he cannot misuse his sysop strength, c) that he should make clear on what basis he makes his claims instead of only referring to very general policies, and d) that he is potentionally violating the three-revert rule. I have no problem at all to discuss this issue to an uneducated editor, which he obviously is (he obviously has not the slightest knowledge about Swiss political processes and circumstances), but he refuses to do so. Summary of dispute by JohnPlease keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
Talk:Gotthard Base Tunnel#popular intiatives success discussionPlease keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
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Wikipedia talk:WikiProject_Professional_wrestling
– General close. See comments for reasoning. | Procedural close. There has not been recent extensive discussion on a talk page. On being asked whether the parties wished to engage in moderated discussion anyway, there was no answer. If there is extensive inconclusive discussion on a talk page, this case can be refiled here without prejudice, or a Request for Comments may be used. Blanking of questions on user talk pages is permitted. Report any future blanking of questions on article talk pages to WP:ANI after reading the boomerang essay. The blanking of questions on article talk pages, even of tendentious questions, is tendentious. However, the posing of questions tendentiously is also disruptive. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:58, 30 July 2016 (UTC) |
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Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Users involved Dispute overview I am attempting to discuss an issue I view as unresolved. When I created a section for that discussion on the appropriate WikiProject (as it is an issue which spans several wrestlers' articles) the section was blanked: special:diff/731788343 I attempted to contact the blanker for an explanation of their behavior, but they simply blanked the question: special:diff/731790666 Have you tried to resolve this previously? Other than contacting their talk, I also did special:diff/731790496 requesting input on what sort of templates are appropriate to use to notify users that it is not okay for them to delete other people's comments when they are engaging in on-topic discussion at a community location. How do you think we can help? I am hoping others can give input on policy as it applies to these communications. Was it okay for Oknazevad to delete the section I made on the WikiProject talk page like that? If I am not able to inquire about their deletion on their talk page then where should I do it? Additional help resolving the topic matter of the section would also be valuable but that could be a separate and more lengthly discussion. The sort of thing I'd try to use the WikiProject for. Summary of dispute by OknazevadPlease keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
I responded on my talk page. There has been extensive discussion of this WP:STICK at WT:PW, Talk:Triple H and Talk:WWE World Championship over the last two years. Despite the clear consensus against him, Ranze keeps pushing an idea that has no merit and is based on WP:SYNTH. But I'm just going to point to the recent additions at Talk:WWE World Championship, where there is clear consensus against the proposal that has been trotted out repeatedly by Ranze over the past year or so, to the point where others are in agreement that he needs to drop the stick lest he find himself with a topic ban for badgering the discussion repeatedly. Also, I'd like to point out that Ranze never notified me of this discussion. oknazevad (talk) 22:27, 27 July 2016 (UTC) Wikipedia talk:WikiProject_Professional_wrestling discussionPlease keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
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Wikipedia talk:Notability_(people)#Notability_in_Knight.27s_Cross_Holder_Articles
– General close. See comments for reasoning. | General close. Not the proper forum for an issue affecting multiple articles. The Military History talk page would be a good place to take this issue. Robert McClenon (talk) 15:31, 30 July 2016 (UTC) |
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Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute
Users involved
Dispute overview The basic issue involves whether or not articles about people who were awarded the Knight's Cross, a German award in World War II, should be kept. Some editors have attacked multiple Nazi Germany-related articles and in many cases articles have been nominated for deletion. Very often, the issue is that an article depends heavily on a certain source which is deemed unreliable because of supposed Nazi leanings. Some personal attacks have arisen and, because there is primarily one editor responsible for the controversy, it seems necessary to request dispute resolution to clarify the notability standards to which articles about Nazi-German recipients of the Knight's Cross should be held. That editor has, by now, created many AfDs, GA reviews, and talk page challenges. The editor seems unwilling to accept new sources or the possible existence of sources. The general logic is that article X depends largely on an unreliable source, so if the content sourced to that unreliable source is deleted, the article no longer can exist on its own. Other pages with relevant discussions: https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Military_history and many articles references therein. Have you tried to resolve this previously? Several noticeboard discussions and RfCs are ongoing; none appear to be reaching consensus. How do you think we can help? Please evaluate the arguments made by K.e.coffman (primarily) regarding the notability of subjects of articles. The aim is *not* to make Knight's Cross recipients "automatically notable", but we need a standard on what sources can be used to establish notability. What sources are reliable? (e.g. are wartime German newspapers reliable secondary sources on award recipients?) What is to be done with unreliable sources such as those written by people with far-right political views? Summary of dispute by K.e.coffmanPlease keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
Summary of dispute by Peacemaker67Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
Wikipedia talk:Notability_(people)#Notability_in_Knight.27s_Cross_Holder_Articles discussionPlease keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
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Talk:Arrow (season 1)#First name or last name?
– General close. See comments for reasoning. | A Request for Comments on the article talk page is being used to resolve this issue. Robert McClenon (talk) 05:05, 31 July 2016 (UTC) |
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Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Users involved
Dispute overview my argument is that according to WP:FORMAL, it's better to use last names for characters, including fictional ones, as much as we can, though it's not mandatory since WP:FORMAL is an essay. the opposite party's main argument is that we should mention the characters the way they're called more often in the script of the work of fiction itself, while they fail to say why and according to what. Have you tried to resolve this previously? we've discussed it extensively at the talk page as you can see. they have stated irrational arguments and then left the discussion. they refuse to talk while they want to enforce their position. How do you think we can help? maybe as more experienced wikipedians, you can find a compromise. because i'm tired of repeating the obvious. Summary of dispute by AussieLegendI am not sure why HamedH94 has chosen to list only TenTonParasol and I here. There have been four other editors involved in the discussion, including Bignole, the editor with whom HamedH94 had the original dispute. For the most part I share TenTonParasol's opinion. Despite a long, somewhat circular discussion, HamedH94 has failed to convince six other editors that the article should change to using his preferred method of referring to fictional characters by their last name, when the convention is to refer to such characters by the name that is most commonly used when referring to them. That HamedH94 refers to the opinions of multiple editors as "irrational arguments" is at least part of the reason why other editors do not wish to engage with him. Personally, I do not think this discussion can achieve anything without input from all seven involved editors. The opinions of the four other editors cannot be disregarded. --AussieLegend (✉) 14:32, 24 July 2016 (UTC)
Summary of dispute by TenTonParasolI've held, counter to Hamed's position, if a fictional character is most commonly referred to or is most recognized by first name, the article may use first name (even if there are no family characters to disambiguate) to be most understandable to as broad an audience as possible, especially if the last name is rarely used. I felt WP:TECHNICAL is applicable here (especially per its citation in WP:BCLASS), though I understand not all will agree fictional characters' names are part of the "technical" aspects of an article about fiction. WP:FORMAL encourages using conventions set by reliable resources, and in my experience, academic writings often refer to character by first name. A fair number of our FAs, FLs, and GAs also refer to characters by first name if it is a name the character is very commonly referred to or recognized by. While I understand these articles are not perfect, this suggests that what is acceptable does not preclude a first name usage. I have stressed that if there is a local consensus to use last names, I have no problem, but my position is that a formal tone does not automatically exclude a first name usage when a fictional character is most commonly referred to or is most recognized by that name. Despite all this, Hamed continues to state that I have cited nothing to support my argument and that my statements are irrational, unfounded, and wholly irrelevant. I have felt no further need for discussion because the discussion thread has gotten highly repetitive and I see no need to retread the same ground a third or fourth time. I also feel that Hamed has not sufficiently refuted my argument. At the very least, speaking as an involved editor, I feel that there has been no consensus, and in that case, status quo (first name usage) on the article is to remain, and Hamed has edited the article to reflect his position despite this, saying that no further comment opposing his argument means that consensus has moved in his favor. ~Cheers, TenTonParasol 13:38, 24 July 2016 (UTC)
Summary of dispute by BignoleMy words are best summarized by Geraldo. I think that Hamed has mischaracterized that happened. People did not "stop talking" and just "simply" revert. Everyone provided their rationale, Hamed refused to acknowledge the consensus and proceeded to edit the way they wanted, while stating "no other comments so I guess you all agree with me." What Hamed fails to realize is that consensus is not predicated on senseless, never-ending discussion that circles the same points over and over again. People can effectively lobby their positions and move on from the discussion. At the end of the day, Hamed has been the only one fighting against what every other editors has been saying and doing. There have been countless examples provided, explanations of guidelines, direct exerts pulled, etc. Hamed is sticking with their interpretation of what specific from WP:FORMAL that does not actually explicitly contradict the edits in question in the first place. If someone wants to know what I think, my comments on are the talk page of the original article. BIGNOLE (Contact me) 02:33, 25 July 2016 (UTC) Summary of dispute by Adamstom.97I have shown support for user Hamed's position, as I believe that when a character refers to another character by their first name they are actually using their full, real name in a casual way, and so, since this is a formal encyclopaedia, we should use their full, real name in a formal way—introducing them with their full name, and then using their last name from then on, unless the first name is required for disambiguation. I stand by this opinion, and use this format at a lot of other articles. However, I recognise that consensus for this discussion is against me, and the discussion was going nowhere due to everone simply repeating their positions at one another with no side apparently budging. So, I stand by my interpretation of the situation, but am happy to defer to the other opinion in this case as consensus seems to pretty clearly point that way. - adamstom97 (talk) 06:48, 26 July 2016 (UTC) Summary of dispute by AlexTheWhovianSummary of dispute by Geraldo PerezI stopped participating in the discussion on the talk page as I made my points there and saw nothing related to anything I stated made to refute them. My lack of continued involvement there does not mean I changed my position, I just judged further participation would have little value. Use of common names in works of fiction is well-supported by policy and practice. Even for works of non-fiction, people don't always get referred to by their last name, lots of examples of how what is proper tone to refer to an individual varies and and where first name referrals is proper. I agree with the opening statements by AussieLegend and TenTonParasol. Geraldo Perez (talk) 16:52, 24 July 2016 (UTC) Summary of dispute by CyphoidbombI was not involved in the original dispute, but I'm adding myself to this discussion to offer an opinion in the style of an RfC. Referring to characters by surnames as a matter of general rule is contrary to common editing norms. It wouldn't make sense to change Happy Days episode summaries so that we have consistent usage of "Fonzarelli", because that's not how the series or the audience generally refers to Fonzie. Nor are we going to start describing the SpongeBob characters Squidward and Patrick as Tentacles and Star, or Tom and Jerry as Cat and Mouse (their oft-used surnames) because both examples are just silly. "Cat runs into the kitchen with a mallet ready to smash Mouse, but Mouse sneaks up behind Cat and ignites a blowtorch under Cat's ass, causing Cat to catch fire." Buffay, Bing, Gellar, Gellar, Tribbiani, and Green isn't as effective as Phoebe, Chandler, Ross, Monica, and Rachel. (We have two Gellars, you'll notice.) Do we remember the much-talked-about soap opera romance between Spencer and Webber, or are our readers more familiar with the names Luke and Laura? I'll point out also that even WP:SURNAME has some flexibility. We refer to Madonna Louise Ciccone as Madonna, not as Ciconne. We don't say Sarkisian, we say Cher. Rajinikanth is not referred to as Gaekwad. There are common-sense exceptions to formal tone, and writing about fiction is one of them. (Note please, that I'm not familiar with the appropriate way to express an opinion in a dispute resolution case, so please move/reformat my comment accordingly if I have botched it. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 16:52, 29 July 2016 (UTC) Talk:Arrow (season 1)#First name or last name? discussionPlease keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
First statement by moderatorI am opening this case for moderated discussion. Here are the ground rules. Be civil and concise. Civility is required everywhere in Wikipedia and especially in dispute resolution. Overlong long statements do not clarify the issues. Comment on content, not contributors. I expect every editor to check on this case at least every 48 hours and to respond to questions within 48 hours. Do not engage in back-and-forth discussion; address your comments to the moderator and the community. Do not edit the article while discussion is in progress. Do not discuss the article at its talk page, because comments there may be ignored. Robert McClenon (talk) 17:00, 26 July 2016 (UTC) I don't know anything about the dispute, so the editors will have to inform me (and outside readers or editors); don't assume any existing knowledge. Robert McClenon (talk) 17:00, 26 July 2016 (UTC) Will each editor state, in one paragraph, what they think the issue is, what they think should be done with respect to the article, and why? Robert McClenon (talk) 17:00, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
First statements by editorsthe dispute is on how to mention fictional characters in related articles. we haven't found any specific policy or guideline for that. but there is an essay that states content should be written in a formal tone. it's not mandatory (essay); but since this is an encyclopedia, it's rational to write content in a formal tone. that means, mentioning characters by their last names, not first names or nicknames or aliases or stuff like that. the opposite party claims that we should mention the characters the way they're called in the fictional work itself. but they fail to cite any valid essays to support it. and we're not supporting the last name position firmly. since for the characters having family members, disambiguation by first names might be necessary. --HamedH94 (talk) 17:18, 26 July 2016 (UTC) The dispute is whether the consensus is valid. Several editors hold that the series, secondary sources, and third-party commentary, including sources written in formal language, commonly refer to several characters, such as Felicity Smoak and Roy Harper, by first name. This is also common in wider treatment of fiction outside of this particular series. Per the essay WP:FORMAL and per convention and practice suggested acceptable by many FAs, FLs, and GAs dealing with fiction, the article can refer to characters by first name (Felicity, Roy) rather than last name (Smoak, Harper). The consensus prefers first name usage. However, this consensus is disputed as invalid, for reasons including that it is unfounded. At least, the discussion, which became circular and repetitive, is deadlocked into WP:NOCONSENSUS, therefore the status quo of the article should remain. The status quo prefers a first name usage. No action should be taken on the article in this matter. ~Cheers, TenTonParasol 17:28, 26 July 2016 (UTC) The dispute is whether or not there is a consensus to change the existing way of mentioning fictional characters in this article by their most commonly referred to manner to something that is considered by one editor to be more "formal" or encyclopedic in tone. The discussion is basically concluded (in chess this would be considered a stalemate) in the article talk page. There is a recurring visiting of the same points but there is definitely no consensus to make that change and it looks like there is a consensus to keep the page as is. The basis for the proposed change is a well-respected essay that doesn't directly support the use of last names but does support common usage, leaving what is formal tone to what is appropriate for the subject matter, in this case descriptions of a particular work of fiction. Sufficient examples have been given in the discussion of featured articles and lists where it was considered proper tone to refer to fictional characters by their first names that that use in the article in question conforms to what is considered normal and proper for Wikipedia as a whole. Also there are sufficient examples in non-fiction biographical articles where individuals are referred to by their first name when that is the common name, even when the last name is known (e.g. Madonna Ciccone), to undermine any assertion that last name formality is always required. This issue has basically devolved to a style preference issue that should be resolved by consensus, which I believe it has. Geraldo Perez (talk) 17:58, 26 July 2016 (UTC) Second statement by moderatorIt appears that one editor says that we should refer to the characters by their last names, and cites an essay, and states that the other editors fail to cite any essays or guidelines. (Does that editor agree that there may be exceptions to the use of last names? Is this one of those exceptions?) Two editors appear to state that there is consensus to refer to characters by their first names for this show. (Do those editors base that consensus on a specific policy, guideline, or essay?) There isn't any obvious compromise position. Does any editor have a proposed compromise? Is the editor who wants last names used willing to use first names for harmony? Are the editors who think that consensus is for the use of first names willing to use last names instead to maintain harmony? In the absence of a compromise, will the editors agree to a Request for Comments? Robert McClenon (talk) 02:46, 28 July 2016 (UTC) Second statements by editorswe've agreed with using first names for the cases of disambiguation for the characters who share their last names. that maybe a compromise. but the opposite party hasn't even accepted that. actually in the mentioned article, there are a lot of characters with family members, and this compromise can be great, if they accept it. they firmly defend their position without the willingness to accept that they might be kinda wrong. if you believe RFC could be efficient, i agree with it. --HamedH94 (talk) 03:53, 28 July 2016 (UTC) I am speaking as one stating there is a strong consensus to refer to characters by their first names, if the character is commonly referred to by that name. Conversely, if the character is commonly referred to by last name, the character should be referred to by last name; in that case, characters who are commonly referred to by last name who share a family name should be disambiguated by first name, regardless. I base this position on the essay WP:FORMAL, which states: To the questions asked. The essay used as support for using last names, WP:Writing better articles § Tone, is being misread and does not do so, so there is no support in any policy or essay to use last names when it is not the common way of referring to fictional characters. § Tone does support using "style used by reliable sources", "clear and understandable". Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Biographies § Subsequent use is analogous and may provide some guidance but it is a part of the MOS for biographies which is for real people so works of fiction definitely don't fall under its purview. So § Tone supports using names as described in reliable sources, counter to what is claimed. As to the consensus to use common names that is based on well-understood practice as exemplified by wide and long-lasting GA, FA and FL usage. Also § Tone, which does support using common names and in no way says anything counter to the standard practice. I see no possible compromise in this issue, it would be too disruptive to standard practice in existing articles of works of fiction and disruptive to the project as a whole to set this type of precedent. Last names are already used in works of fiction when that is the common way of referring to the characters in question as documented in the source material and reliable secondary and tertiary sources. If an RfC were started, I would of course, contribute but I think it is pointless as the result will be pretty obvious particularly if it goes beyond the existing small pool of experienced editors that have been following these recent discussions and expands to a wider pool. Might be useful to put this issue to rest. Geraldo Perez (talk) 15:49, 28 July 2016 (UTC) Third statement by moderatorThe above statements are long and do not really help. I will again ask each editor to state their position, this time, in two sentences, including why use last name or why use first name. I will again also ask whether each editor is willing to concede just for the sake of harmony. Does it really make that much difference how fictional characters are called? I will again ask each editor if they will agree to an RFC. Robert McClenon (talk) 12:43, 29 July 2016 (UTC) Third statements by editorsReferrals to fictional characters must match how referred to in reliable sources with respect to use of first or last name as that is what the readers of the article will need to see to more easily understand what is being described. In this article that means first names for the characters in question. Cannot concede on this for harmony sake as that will degrade the understandability of the article in question to potential readers. I will participate in an RfC, I hope one is not required for closure on this issue. Geraldo Perez (talk) 13:51, 29 July 2016 (UTC) There is a preference to refer to fictional characters by first name if this is how they are commonly referred to in their work, are likely recognized by the broadest audience by this name, and are often referred to by this name in secondary sources and tertiary sources (including those written in a formal tone), which is the case with this article. This is also something established as acceptable convention and practice in our highest quality assessed articles. I am generally unwilling to concede because it overturns both a strong local and what I perceive to be a wider consensus regarding the acceptability of this practice. I am willing to participate in an RFC. ~Cheers, TenTonParasol 16:08, 29 July 2016 (UTC) Lengthier response further above, but succinctly: "Cat runs into the kitchen with a mallet ready to smash Mouse, but Mouse sneaks up behind Cat and ignites a blowtorch under Cat's ass, causing Cat to catch fire" is not as effective as referring to Tom and Jerry by their commonly-used first names. WP:SURNAME is flexible even for non-fiction articles. Madonna is not referred to as Ciccone, Cher is not referred to as Sarkisian. There are exceptions to formal tone, and fictional names are one of them. The comments from the other experienced members of WikiProject television represent common editing practice. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 17:41, 29 July 2016 (UTC) WP is an encyclopedia, not a fans blog. so in my interpretation, we should try to avoid mentioning the characters (fictional or not) by first name. I can't concede like this, but I agree with rfc. --HamedH94 (talk) 18:05, 29 July 2016 (UTC) Fourth statement by moderatorIt appears that there is a rough consensus that Wikipedia should refer to fictional characters as they are normally referred to, which in this case would appear to be by first names. However, one editor appears to disagree with the consensus and thinks that we should use last names, based on an essay. This leaves two ways to resolve the dispute. The editor who is in the minority can simply accept the rough consensus as a rough consensus, or we can have a Request for Consensus. The editors who have responded above are in agreement with the RFC, although some would prefer not to have to go through with it, since there already is rough consensus. Unless there are multiple objections, or unless the one editor agrees to the use of first names, this thread will be closed via an RFC. Robert McClenon (talk) 03:12, 30 July 2016 (UTC)
Fourth statements by editorsi agree with rfc. --HamedH94 (talk) 04:17, 30 July 2016 (UTC) I'm not sure whether I should place my comment here, as this is technically my first statement, not my fourth, but it seems more logical to add it here. Firstly, a minor point, RfC means "Requests for Comments", not "Request for Consensus" and, like this discussion, an RfC is not binding. That said, as the moderator has now indicated, there is a rough consensus between editors that we should refer to fictional characters by their common name. That consensus has been strengthened with the addition of Cyphoidbomb's unsolicited comments, yet still we have one editor apparently not willing to just accept the consensus and move on, despite six editors effectively saying the same thing and another saying that he is willing to defer to the opinions of other editors. My concern with an RfC is that if only a couple of editors add their opinions to the RfC, as can happen, where do we proceed from there if the single dissenter is still unwilling to accept the views of the majority? If the others are willing to accept the current consensus as consensus, do we need an RfC at all? --AussieLegend (✉) 13:05, 30 July 2016 (UTC)
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Talk:Unseen character#Dispute Resolution on Vera Peterson and Maris Crane
– Closed as failed. See comments for reasoning. | Closed as futile, due to no response from either the registered editor or the unregistered editor after the case was opened by the moderator. A reasonable next step would be a Request for Comments. (Formal mediation is unlikely to work when informal mediation has failed due to no response, because formal mediation, like informal mediation, is voluntary and cannot require an editor to respond.) The moderator will note that, although discussion at DRN or any other dispute resolution forum is voluntary, discussion of the reverting of edits, as noted in the bold, revert, discuss cycle is not optional. An editor who reverts the edits of another editor is required to discuss the reverts, and reverting without discussing is a form of disruptive editing. Disruptive editing by registered editors may be reported to WP:ANI. Disruptive editing by unregistered editors is best dealt with by requesting semi-protection. A Request for Comments, which will formalize consensus, is a reasonable next step. Robert McClenon (talk) 01:57, 4 August 2016 (UTC) |
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Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute
Users involved
Dispute overview Unregistered user(s) insist on deleting Maris Crane as an example of an unseen character despite multiple reliable sources[1][2][3][4][5][6][7] (including the creators of the character) who consider her not just an unseen character, but on of the top examples of an unseen character in American television. Justification for removal is that completely original research argument that she is not "the best" example and that the list should be limited. This occurred after User:Rms125a@hotmail.com and I had reached a compromise on the issue. This is the second time this issue has had to come to DRN, the first time it was thrown back to the page talk. The IP refuses to register an account, and his dynamic IP creates an undue burden on me in regards to informing him of discusssion. Have you tried to resolve this previously? This has been discussed extensively on talk page. Rms125a@hotmail.com were able to reach a compromise, but the unregistered IP has contravened that. How do you think we can help? 1. Provide guidance on whether or not an editors' personal judgement call that a character does not meet conditions of unseen character can trump multiple sources that say the character is unseen. 2. Provide guidance on whether the multiple reliable sources representing Maris Crane as one of the iconic unseen characters of American television qualifies her as significant enough of an example for inclusion. Summary of disputes by Mmyers1976
Summary of dispute by 99.192.79.148Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
Summary of dispute by 99.192.75.162Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
Summary of dispute by 99.192.82.122Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
Summary of dispute by Rms125a@hotmail.comPlease keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
Talk:Unseen character#Dispute Resolution on Vera Peterson and Maris Crane discussionPlease keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
First statement by moderatorI am opening this case for moderated discussion. Here are some rules. Be civil and concise. Civility is required everywhere in Wikipedia, and especially in dispute resolution. Overly long statements do not clarify issues. Comment on content, not contributors. The rule against commenting on contributors is absolute in this case, and no deviations from this rule will be permitted. Do not engage in threaded or back-and-forth discussion. Reply only to questions by the moderator, not to answers by other editors. The rule against threaded or back-and-forth discussion is absolute, and no deviations will be permitted. Each editor is expected to check on this case at least every 48 hours, and to respond to all questions from the moderator within 48 hours. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:36, 31 July 2016 (UTC) Will each editor please explain in one paragraph what their position is, as to whether Vera Peterson and Maris Crane should or should not be listed as unseen characters, and why. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:36, 31 July 2016 (UTC) First statements by editorsMultiple independent, reliable secondary sources (see reference list below) have established that not only are both Vera and Maris generally considered to be unseen characters, but that they are generally considered among the most famous unseen characters in popular culture. Even if these characters did not meet an applicable strict textbook criteria for an unseen character, this well-documented widespread consideration that they are unseen characters, that they are the most famous unseen characters, would still establish their significance and notability for inclusion in an article on unseen characters. And the fact is, there is no strict textbook criteria for unseen characters. All the sources in the article which are used to establish a definition of unseen character are limited in scope to one-off live theatrical works (and indeed, most are limited in scope to Enlightenment-era French theatre. These sources cannot reasonably be assumed to be defining the concept of an unseen character as it applies to episodic television. In the absence of an explicit criteria for an unseen character in episodic television, we must rely on the general usage of the term/concept in multiple reliable secondary sources, and Vera and Maris are explicitly and routinely encompassed by this general usage. The personal judgements of Wikipedia editors about whether or not a character truly meets a definition of "unseen" cannot override multiple reliable secondary sources per Verifiability: "content is determined by previously published information rather than the beliefs or experiences of its editors". Mmyers1976 (talk) 18:22, 1 August 2016 (UTC) Second statement by moderatorOne editor has commented, stating that Vera Peterson and Maris Crane are not only considered to be unseen characters, but are considered well-known examples of unseen characters. Do either the other registered editor or the unregistered editor wish to comment? (For that matter, does the filing party wish to comment again?) Robert McClenon (talk) 18:17, 2 August 2016 (UTC)
Second statements by editorsI just came across this DRN discussion from last summer, which was filed by the 99.192-range IP and moderated by Steven Zhang that directly discussed the inclusion of examples in this article. My apologies for not looking hard enough to find this previous discussion sooner. The key elements of the moderator's position were given in the following statements:
In a nutshell, moderator Steven Zhang's analysis of the issue was that the definition of "unseen character" in the lede is problematic, but if reliable sources say that a character is an unseen character, it is appropriate to put that in the article. Mmyers1976 (talk) 15:51, 3 August 2016 (UTC)
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Template talk:Ethnic_slurs
– General close. See comments for reasoning. | Wrong venue. To contest how a RFC has been closed, follow the established procedure set out at Wikipedia:Closing_discussions#Challenging_other_closures. — TransporterMan (TALK) 02:29, 5 August 2016 (UTC) |
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Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Users involved
Dispute overview A number of editors on one side of the dispute are not satisfied with the way the recent RfC ended, and I believe that a breach of Wikipedia policy (notably WP:CONSENSUS) has occurred. The RfC discussion was extensive and lasted for a few weeks, but a decision was recently made by an administrator on the basis of majority vote, rather than the strength of arguments, which is inconsistent with how consensus is supposed to be achieved per Wikipedia policy. None of the concerns raised by the opposing parties were sufficiently addressed by the arguments presented on the talk page or by the administrator who made the final decision. As for the dispute itself, it was about whether or not Jews should be categorized as West Asian/Middle Eastern. A number of editors rejected this categorization on the grounds that A) Jews accept converts/newcomers, B) most Jews have lived in diaspora for centuries and C) genetic admixture with foreign populations. Others argued, based on WP:RS affirming that Jews are a national group with collective ties to the Levant, as well as the anthropological criteria (notably Martinez-Cobo) utilized in every other case like this (see also: List of indigenous peoples), that Jews belong under West Asian. In addition, points A, B, and C were refuted on the grounds that A) all nations accept and integrate outsiders, and Jews are no different, B) living somewhere else, no matter how long, does not make someone indigenous to that particular territory; rather, this is defined through ethnogenesis, and C) every nation/ethnic group has mingled with other ethnicities to some degree, and Jews are no exception. None of these concerns were addressed in any meaningful way, if at all. To Human Trumpet Solo and musashiaharon, the reason I included you both is because you provided many of the arguments and sources alluded above, which I feel were more or less ignored. I apologize if I did so without your consent. I assumed you would want to take part in this as well. Have you tried to resolve this previously? Mediation was suggested two times, but was rejected twice.
How do you think we can help? Sufficiently addressing the concerns articulated above, or suggesting alternative proposals. Summary of dispute by ElectoralistPlease keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
This looks to me like an attempt at Forum shopping. The complainant is simply, a priori, rejecting the validity of any arguments he disagrees with and therefore assumes that the fact that the closing admin concluded differently from him means the admin must have made some mistake but he does not explain what that breach of policy is other than to assert his arguments were the correct ones therefore rejection of those arguments is somehow a policy breach. @Deryck Chan: whom ChronoFrog has not seen fit to contact, closed the RFC with the following comments: "The conclusion of the debate is, by a thin margin of opinion and argument, that Jews should form a standalone category. A significant minority of editors argued for Jews to be included under Asian alongside Arabs, but there is a stronger majority opinion who prefer not to put them under Asian because the Jews' strong African and European affiliation means they don't fit neatly into the categorisation used by this template. An alternative proposal, to move slurs against Jews into a separate category for religious slurs, did not gain support either. Deryck C. 13:06, 3 August 2016 (UTC)" - IMHO, User:ChronoFrog has not said anything that disproves anything Deryck C found. Electoralist (talk) 22:04, 4 August 2016 (UTC)
You claimed the breach of policy was that Deryck C went by majority vote "rather than the strength of arguments". Frankly, that is a subjective claim since it assumes your argument was stronger than those you disagreed with, which takes us back to my initial statement which is that ChronoFrong is "rejecting the validity of any arguments he disagrees with" and therefore concludes that a closing admin who finds opposing arguments to be stronger than his must have made a mistake and therefore breached policy. Electoralist (talk) 22:27, 4 August 2016 (UTC)
Summary of dispute by Jeffgr9Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
As I have noted and cited many times, Jews, for the most part, are a Diasporic, Semitic (Afro-Asiatic, Southwest Asian, etc.), Ethnocultural/Ethnoreligious, Tribe/People of Color. So I suggest we list both Jews, Arabs, and any other Levantine groups and their correlating slurs, under a section called "West Asians/North Africans" in the template — either as a separate group from the other umbrella sections, or alongside them under Asians, depending where you consider the Levant/Middle East. Jeffgr9 (talk) 22:11, 4 August 2016 (UTC) Summary of dispute by musashiaharonPlease keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
Summary of dispute by The Human Trumpet SoloPlease keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
I'll try and make this brief as I have no desire to be involved in another long-winded argument. I think my counter-proposal to remove all geographic categories would have been the best solution. As for the previous dispute, I believe that User: Electoralist's behavior throughout the whole thing has been highly WP:DISRUPTIVE. He made numerous bids both to remove me from the discussion via accusations of WP:sockpuppeting and to keep the conversation going via WP:Forum shopping. I also provided a list of credible sources, many of them culled from other well-developed articles relating to the same topic. The response amounted to little more than "I disagree".The Human Trumpet Solo (talk) 22:52, 4 August 2016 (UTC)
Template talk:Ethnic_slurs discussionPlease keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
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Talk:Endgame: Singularity
– General close. See comments for reasoning. | Closed without prejudice due to inactivity. The other editor has not edited in five days. If disagreement resumes and discussion is inconclusive, either party may refile here. The filing party is encouraged to register an account, which has various advantages. Robert McClenon (talk) 17:57, 7 August 2016 (UTC) |
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Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Users involved Dispute overview We disagree over the necessity of reliable sources and avoiding original research in describing this game’s gameplay. We also disagree over the definitions of these terms. I say the claims contain new information not included in the sources, derived from his own experiential knowledge; he says There’s also debate over whether a mobile app-store listing of an unaffiliated third-party adaptation is a sufficient source for inclusion in the main subject’s article, or whether it gives the apps undue weight. Likewise for a software repository release for the Linux-powered Pandora console (long after the game’s initial Linux release), supported by a forum post on the official Pandora site, currently WP:HIDDEN in the article. Have you tried to resolve this previously? Extensive discussion on the article talkpage. Extensive discussion on the user’s talkpage. Discussion on Wikipedia:Help desk/Archives/2016 July 28#Is reliability necessary for verifiability?, of which we disagree about the consensus. How do you think we can help?
Summary of dispute by ShaddimPlease keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
Talk:Endgame: Singularity discussionPlease keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
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Template talk:Ethnic slurs
– General close. See comments for reasoning. | Closed as wrong forum. This noticeboard is for the discussion of article content issues, not for the review of the closure of Requests for Comment, and this appears to be a question about the close of a Request for Comments. When a previous thread about this issue was filed and closed, it was not closed as premature, and no amount of subsequent discussion will make this the right forum. Review of the closure of a Request for Comments is done at the Administrators Noticeboard. This is not the forum to review the closure of an RFC. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:13, 8 August 2016 (UTC) |
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Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Users involved
Dispute overview This dispute concerns how entries relating to Jews should be classified on {{Ethnic slurs}}. An RfC was previously held on Template talk:Ethnic slurs, which I have closed with the decision to classify them "standalone", in other words not as a subgroup of any continent-based ethnic groups on the template. I was an WP:ANRFC admin and was not involved in the debate before RfC closure. I closed the discussion based on my best-effort assessment of the arguments presented in the discussion. Have you tried to resolve this previously? Shortly after the RfC was closed, ChronoFrog filed a DRN request but the case was dismissed as premature at the time (see here). A long discussion, tallying 50kB in text by now, ensued on my user talk page. Much of the discussion was re-arguing points that had already been presented in the RfC, though some new sources and analyses were provided. How do you think we can help? Although the discussion continues to be heated, a general sentiment expressed at the long discussion is that we should bring this issue to broader attention around the English Wikipedia. So I'm bringing my own closure and the subsequent discussion back to DRN for everybody's scrutiny. I hope that DRN can provide structured discussion on this matter and come to a binding decision. Summary of dispute by ChronoFrogPlease keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
I guess I'll begin by explaining why I am concerned about the outcome of the RfC. It is mostly a copy/paste of what I wrote on Deryck's page, but I am on my way out the door so I don't have enough time to craft anything original. To recap, the dispute was about whether or not Jews should remain in the West Asian/Middle Eastern category, where they had been for the past 3-4 years at least. A number of editors rejected this categorization on the grounds that A) Jews accept converts/newcomers, B) most Jews have lived in diaspora for centuries and C) genetic admixture with non-Jewish populations. Others argued that, based on WP:RS affirming that Jews are an ethnic/national group with collective descent (as determined by countless genetic studies) from Israel, in addition to the anthropological criteria (notably UN criteria/Martinez-Cobo) utilized in every other case like this (see also: List of indigenous peoples), Jews should remain under West Asian. In addition, points A, B, and C were contested on the grounds that A) all nations accept and integrate outsiders to varying degrees, and Jews are no different, B) living somewhere else, no matter how long, does not make someone indigenous to a particular territory (since this would mean that all colonial groups would eventually become indigenous); per Martinez-Cobo, indigeneity is defined through ethnogenesis, not longstanding presence and C) every nation/ethnic group has mingled with other ethnicities to some degree, including Jews. During the RfC, none of these concerns were addressed in any meaningful way, if at all. Instead, the discussion petered out after a few weeks, seemingly with a consensus that the template was fine as it was (with Jews and Arabs both having their own categories under the larger West Asian umbrella) with no counter-response or RS beyond A ) a non-RS blog (which had immediately been called out as such, with no response) and B ) repeated assertions of earlier arguments (which, again, had been promptly called out with the same counter-points/sources as before, and again, no response). I took it off my watchlist until I found that a final decision had been made seemingly based on majority vote. I went to Deryck's page to see what his reasoning was, but another heated argument with Electoralist ensued soon afterwards. I pulled up a list of RS that Human Trumpet Solo posted (with a few additions of my own) which had seemingly gone ignored in the initial RfC (see here: https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/User_talk:Deryck_Chan#Challenging_RfC_closure_on_Template:_Ethnic_slurs). He asked me to verify the sources, so I linked him to the article they originally came from. None of the sources provided by Electoralist in justifying his proposal for change were sufficient enough for WP:DUE. One was a genetic study which examined the mtDNA line of Ashkenazi Jews, which I responded to by pointing out that mtDNA is only half of the equation. Y-DNA, in contrast, is overwhelmingly Semitic. Further, I provided a few links to autosomal and Y-DNA studies, as well as Harry Ostrer's book on Jewish genetics. His other source was a JVL article which only had one citation: JewFAQ (an independent, non-RS). I answered him by pointing this out. Overall, I believe the decision made to be a case of WP:NOTDEMOCRACY and WP:UNDUE, ignoring the abundance of WP:RS provided in the course of the RfC arguing against removing Jews from West Asian. ChronoFrog (talk) 23:40, 7 August 2016 (UTC) Summary of dispute by Jeffgr9Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
Summary of dispute by ElectoralistPlease keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
This matter has been discussed at length and I believe at this point we are just seeing WP:FORUMSHOPPING and I don't see how, given that there has been an RFC that has been closed with a finding of consensus, it is necessary to bring it up again here nor is this the appropriate forum. As far as I can see, the criteria for reconsidering the closure set out at Wikipedia:Closing_discussions#Challenging_other_closures have not been met. User:Cunard has questioned the decision to reopen the DRN here. I'll also add that the small subgroup of editors who have been listed for this discussion lends itself to confirmation bias as it is simply the list User:ChronoFrog chose to notify of the original DRN discussion with Deryck Chan added on. As has been discussed ad nauseum, Jews as a people have a complex ethnic and genetic history and it is incorrect to say they are a "West Asian" or for that matter European group due to the degree of admixutures. User:ChronoFrog refers to genetic evidence that Askhenazi Jews (who constitute over 75% of the world Jewish population) are matrilineally descended from four European ancestors as "only half the picture" yet his solution completely ignores that half of the picture. A layperson's explanation of Ashkenazi genetics can be found in this LiveScience article Surprise: Ashkenazi Jews Are Genetically European and scholarly sources can be found in this article from the European Journal of Human Genetics "MtDNA evidence for a genetic bottleneck in the early history of the Ashkenazi Jewish population", a peer reviewed article which Google Scholar states has been cited by 78 other scholarly articles, as well as "Counting the Founders: The Matrilineal Genetic Ancestry of the Jewish Diaspora" a peer reviewed article cited by 87 other scholarly articles. As has been exhaustively both in the orpginal Talk page discussion as well as the Deryck Chan's talk page, there are several Jewish ethnic groups - Ashkenazi (European) Jews, Shephardic (Spanish/North African) Jews, Mizrachi (Arab or Middle Eastern) Jews (often conflated with Shephardic Jews), as well as Ethiopian Jews (and other sub-Saharan Jews) Desi Jews, Chinese Jews and others whose skin colour are white, brown, black, "yellow", etc. To say Jews are simply "West Asian" looks, to revisit User:ChronoFrog's quote at "only half the picture" as much as saying Ashkenazi Jews are European looks at only half the picture, let alone South Asian, Chinese, and Black Jews. Therefore, listing Jews as a standalone category in the template makes more sense rather than trying to shoehorn them into a particular ethnic subcategory (West Asian, European, or African) particularly when one considers that as a religion, Jews have accepted converts for millenia and will continue to do so meaning that admixturing will continue. While there is no such thing as a 'pure' ethnicity and all ethnic groups experience admixture, the composition of the Jewish people as a religion as well as a culture and ethnicity amplified by the Jewish history of disperal (diaspora) throughout the world means that admixturing has occured to a much greater degree and makes it impossible to simplistically place Jews under a single ethnic category. Electoralist (talk) 01:25, 8 August 2016 (UTC)
Summary of dispute by MusashiaharonThis dispute has been continuing for over a month and is still quite active. The core question is how to categorize Jews among the other ethnic groups in the template. Before the dispute began on June 25, Jews were placed next to Arabs under [West] Asians, and had been categorized as such for several years. Currently the choices are to put Jews in a standalone category, or to group them as a Middle Eastern or West Asian ethnicity. (It was previously attempted to categorize them as White/European. This was quickly dismissed, because A) a large proportion of Jews are not Ashkenazic, and B) the beginnings of Jewish ethnicity, regardless the subgroup, are traceable to the Middle East, which still bears obvious influence on their internal and external associations and current way of life.) Before I state my opinion, I'll describe my criteria. An ethnicity is "a social group that shares a common and distinctive culture, religion, language, or the like." It makes sense therefore, to categorize ethnicities by the origins of these defining elements. Because of this, I am in favor of categorizing Jews in general as a Middle Eastern or [West] Asian ethnicity, being that each of these defining elements is traceable to the Middle East. This is verified in linguistics (eg. Gersenius' Hebrew Grammar), historical writings (Josephus, Antiquities of the Jews), Jewish philosophical writings (Maimonides' Guide for the Perplexed, and The Kuzari), and in Rabbinical writings on ritual law (Berachot 30a, Mishneh Torah, Laws of Agriculture: Terumot), as well as the Torah itself (Genesis 12, et al.). Genetics is a topic of secondary importance to ethnographers, who are mostly concerned with culture. Yet there too, clear genetic markers link Jews from all over the world to the Middle East (NCBI: Abraham's Children in the Genome Era). Some admixture with the local populations is present, as with any other ethnic group. However, given the overwhelming influence of cultural factors, this can hardly be said to negate or weaken the existence of the Jewish ethnicity in any clear or specific way. Such converts were considered fully Jewish by other Jews around the world, and were more often than not persecuted and ostracized from their previous social circles (eg. Lord George Gordon). Germane to this particular template of Ethnic slurs, the slurs themselves give further support to categorizing Jews as Middle Eastern. In particular, "Christ-killer" shows that Europeans positively identified their local Jews to be one and the same as the people who killed their god in the Land of Israel. Similarly, the term "Yid" developed from the High German "jüdisch," etc., which came from the Hebrew "Yehudi," or Judean, after Judah, the pre-eminent, royal tribe among the Jews in their own land (Online Etymology Dictionary: Yid). Parenthetically, Jews at large already had come to be called by that same term ("Yehudi", Judean) thousands of years earlier, regardless their tribal affiliation (eg. Mordecai the Benjaminite in Esther 2:5). Ultimately, "Judean" came to be shortened to "Jew," (Online Etymology Dictionary: Jew) and so even in the slurs themselves, Jews are acknowledged to be a Middle Eastern people. Musashiaharon (talk) 01:53, 8 August 2016 (UTC) Template talk:Ethnic slurs discussionPlease keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
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Hinkley Point_C_nuclear_power_station
– General close. See comments for reasoning. | General close without prejudice. Editors have stated that progress is being made on the article talk page. Closing this thread to allow progress to continue to be made on the article talk page. If progress there fails, this case can be refiled. Robert McClenon (talk) 19:51, 10 August 2016 (UTC) |
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Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Users involved
Dispute overview There has been a good deal of progress at reinstating the deleted material. However, there are two unresolved questions relating to WP:SYNTH:
There are several deletions that have since been reverted, but motivated this request for dispute resolution, see this Talk section:
Have you tried to resolve this previously? Since raising this dispute, there has been good progress via the talk page. In particular, Absolutelypuremilk and Lklundin have helped by reinstating material and explaining their edits and concerns in more detail. How do you think we can help? By arbitrating on a way forwards, in particular the claims of original research and synthesis of published material. Hinkley Point_C_nuclear_power_station discussionPlease keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
Thank you for you guidance, Robert McClenon. I have included all four parties in the listing. Lancastle (talk) 09:12, 6 August 2016 (UTC)
Comments by BeagelFirst of all, I would like to confirm that I'm interested to proceed with the dispute resolution. I'm quite flexible about the form or venue of the discussion, so I don't have objections to discuss it here. Saying this, I have to admit that by my understanding there had been recently some progress at the article talk page discussion, so I believe the dispute resolution seems possible. Before the request was submitted here, the talk page discussion was also linked at Wikipedia:No_original research/Noticeboard#Discussion at Talk:Hinkley Point C nuclear power station; however, so far there has been no discussion at WP:OR/N and no contribution to the talk page discussion has not made through WP:OR/N. Therefore I believe there is no objections to discuss the dispute here. I would like to clarify my understanding about the scope of the dispute. By my understanding this is mainly about the content which may or may not to be classified as synthesis of published sources. More specifically, it involves the following issues:
In addition to these, additional minor dispute is about the composition of the lead of this article. There is a dispute if some details should be included also in the lead or is it enough to have these details on the relevant sections. Particularly, this is about mentioning the National Audit Office in the lead and the status of EDF (mainly [French] state-owned) and CGN ([and Chinese] state-owned). Beagel (talk) 19:48, 7 August 2016 (UTC) Additional comments concerning provided diffs:
Beagel (talk) 20:09, 7 August 2016 (UTC)
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