Stale, long past DRN life span. Since I did not work this case, I cannot be sure what to recommend as a next step, but Howicus is free to supplement this closing statement with any recommendations he might have. Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 20:49, 14 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Closed discussion
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Have you discussed this on a talk page?
Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.
User 81.240.132.34 insists on excluding any other hypothesis, unwilling to wait at least the end of the trial. I accept all the information he as added, but require a "supposedly" at least at the beginning, to remember that there are still some doubts. I have also offered a link of a official document about that, but he deleted it.
Have you tried to resolve this previously?
Discussion on my personal page.
How do you think we can help?
Explaining what are the rules about controversial events.
Opening comments by 81.240.132.34
Please limit to 2000 characters - longer statements may be deleted in their entirety or asked to be shortened. This is so a volunteer can review the dispute in a timely manner. Thanks.
Roberiki is of the opinion (1) that the marines did not shoot at all (2) that the shooting did not result in the deaths of the fishermen (3) that the court case is underway and so we should wait till the end of the trial before linking the Italian VPD team to the two dead Indian fishermen.
My perspective has been clearly outlined in the TALK page of the article : (A) the VPD team fired at a fishing boat (which is undisputed because the Italian Defence Ministry said so in a communiqué released immediately after the incident). (B) It is a fact that forensic and ballistic analysis has linked the shrapnel, found in the dead bodies of the slain Indian fishermen on-board the St-Antony, to the ammunition and weapons issued to the VPD marines on-board the Enrica Lexie (which also no one can dispute because of the Alessandro Piroli report by Italian military investigators and also Indian police case-report filed in Indian courts).
To conclude, we can safely assume from all the authenticated investigation information freely available in the public-domain that there is overwhelming evidence that the Italian VPD team did open fire on a fishing boat and that the bullets did hit and kill 2 Indian fishermen on the St-Antony. The opening paragraph of the article says exactly this. No more and no less.
On a side-note, kindly also read what Roberiki says about the Italian Government and senior Ministers in his contribution on the TALK page of the Talk:2012 Italian shooting in the Laccadive Sea, it becomes clear that his sole intention is to disrupt the Wiki article just because he dislikes Italian politicians.
Please do not use this for discussing the dispute prior to a volunteer opening the thread for comments - continue discussing the issues on the article talk page if necessary.
Hi, I'm Howicus, a volunteer at DRN. So, the problem here seems to be that this incident's trial is currently ongoing, and Robertiki wants the article to make it clear that the incident has not yet been proven in court, while 81.240.132.34 says that the evidence already presented in the trial is enough to remove the "supposed", right? Well it seems to me that the shooting itself is not in question: the marines did shoot two people. Only the motives and intentions are being questioned. That's how it looks to me, feel free to correct me if this is not the case. Howicus (talk) 20:48, 15 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
There are some open questions: the bullets appear to have hit the boat with a low trajectory, too low to come from the deck of a big ship, the bullets are common use, and about the tracers, it's the first time I read that you can use it to identify a shooter; in the past too many times, italian officials have changed their results, we still don't know what happened at Ustica 1980, or what happened with Amanda Knox, and it still it is not ended. And today read (translate with Google) http://www.tgcom24.mediaset.it/politica/articoli/1106200/caso-kazako-a-rischio-4-funzionari-del-viminale.shtml it's normal in Italy. So the italian marines have no one they can trust, the "reason of state" comes first. After all it is easier the Indians find an acceptable truth. Read http://www.imo.org/blast/blastData.asp?doc_id=14506&filename=182.pdf page 17 about the Olympic Flair. Link also deleted by 81.240.132.34. Too many doubts. And about seriousness: have we forgotten Mr.Berlusconi ? --Robertiki (talk) 23:36, 15 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
@talk Thanks for your time as a volunteer to look into this and give your opinion as an independant and neutral 3rd party. I concur 100% with your perspective.
Please correct your statements. I *never* wrote that "the marines did not shoot at all, that the shooting did not result in the deaths of the fishermen". Be correct.--Robertiki (talk) 23:41, 15 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
b) Why 'what' Wikipedia writes affects jurors and judges (in the presumption that it is not a newspaper ...)
c) Why lawyers have no scruples to refer to Wikipedia as a consensus of experts ... when it suits them
d) Cause it violates the principle of neutrality of Wikipedia
e) Cause no voice raised to give the benefit of the doubt to the Italian military that have said they fired into the air and then in water.
Writing: "The Enrica Lexie Incident occurred on 15 February 2012 when Italian soldiers belonging to a Vessel Protection Detachment (VPD) team deployed on a privately owned oil tanker MT Enrica Lexie supposedly opened fire on a fishing boat." at least (and only) in the starting sentence serves to remember that all facts and verdicts are not definitive at this time. And I repeat: at least and only once, in the starting sentence. I have nothing to question about all the information that details the point of 81.240.132.34 and 91.182.239.46 in the full body of the article. The harshness with which one editor sistematically has canceled the insertion is reason alone, that says a lot why "supposedly" should be there, once, and only once, in the article. And I am skipping over the repeated threatening to report edit war to admins, with the roughness of a official. All started with the insertion of the word "supposedly" on 18:38, 13 July 2013 in article http://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/2012_Italian_shooting_in_the_Laccadive_Sea. Someone is really working hard at Bruxelles. --Robertiki (talk) 18:06, 18 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps, instead of using "supposedly" in the first sentence, another sentence could be added to make it clear that the trial is not yet decided? Howicus (talk) 21:46, 19 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Could fit if it implies that the circumstantial evidence is not yet found conclusively by all parties. On 15 February 2012 two fishermen were shot from a trading vessel at the height of the city Alappuzha. After notification to the Indian Coast Guard, eligible cargo ships in the sea were invited to submit comments. Only the Enrica Lexie told of an incident: "The aboard stationed Italian Navy soldiers suspected on an approaching fishing boat Somali pirates and opened fire." On the same afternoon, another tanker present in the area, the Olympic Flair, reported a boarding attempt to the Kochi Port Authority, stating: "About 20 robbers in two boats approached the anchored tanker and attempted to board. The lookout crew noticed the robbers, raised the alarm and crew mustered. The robbers aborted the attack on seeing the crew's alertness and moved away http://www.imo.org/blast/blastData.asp?doc_id=14506&filename=182.pdf[1]. So, you see, some unclear activity was going on in that area.--Robertiki (talk) 11:29, 20 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
May I draw your attention to the last phrase of the opening part of the article which already explicitly states that the case will go to trial after investigation by NIA is completed : "The Enrica Lexie case will go to trial in a Special Court in New Delhi set-up to deal exclusively with this incident."
The controversy surrounding MT Olympic Flair has already been discussed in detail (a few months ago on the TALK page of the article). It is pertinent to note that both Italian and Indian investigators (after the forensic and ballistic analysis) conclusively matched the bullet fragments found in the bodies of the dead India fishermen to the ammunition and rifle fingerprints issued to the Italian marines on MT Enrica Lexie. Furthermore, the Italian military investigation report states that the photographs taken by the marines shows a fishing boat with overwhelming similitude to the St-Antony.
The MT Olympic Flair hypothesis is propaganda coming out of a number of Italian 'right wing' neo-fascist parties (lead on by the folks at the SEENINSIDE.NET conspiracy website) who refuse to accept that overwhelming evidence links the Italian marines to the gunfire deaths on the St-Antony fishing vessel. This conspiracy theory has never been raised by the Italian Government at any point of time.
Don't understand what "'right wing' neo-fascist parties" has to do here, but is the report coming from MT Oylimpic Flair correct/true ? --Robertiki (talk) 14:22, 21 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Could one of the IP users please link to the sources that they feel justify the removal of the word "supposedly"? Thanks. Howicus (talk) 14:56, 22 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
A full list of Indian court documents is available on the article page at [2]
Court documents contain ample information which shows that
(1) the VPD team onboard the Enrica Lexie provided a statement to Indian police that they DID SHOOT at a fishing vessel
(2) the Indian police forensic analysis POSITIVELY CONCLUDED that the bullet fragments extracted from the bodies of the slain Indian fishermen MATCHED the rifle bore 'ballistic fingerprint' of arms issued to the VPD team on board the Enrica Lexie
(3) the Italian military has independently confirmed that the photos of the fishing vessel involved in the incident have strong likelihood of being the Indian fishing vessel St-Antony.
At this stage, even the Italian Government accepts that the Italian marines shot at the fishing boat and that bullets from Enrica Lexie somehow killed the fishermen. The only thing that the Italian government contests in this entire episode is the question of JURISDICTION. Nothing else.
The Olympic Flair report to IMO mentions suspicious boats operating close to the Olympic Flair and appears to point to a SEPARATE incident which involves maritime thieves. The owners of the Olympic Flair have gone on record to state that they did not face any 'piracy' attack by armed pirates. The report [3] specifically does not talk of any shooting.
Therefore, IF for argument sake, we consider that the Olympic Flair was involved, THEN what explanation for the PLAIN FACT that bullets fired from weapons issued to the Enrica Lexie VPD team are found during FORENSIC & BALLISTIC analysis by Indian police and Italian military investigators in the bodies of the slain fishermen ?
This Olympic Flair hypothesis holds no water.
The word "supposedly" it therefore incongruent in the present context.
You know, after reading the source here [4], I would have to agree that the word "supposedly" should not go in that place in the article. The head note in that document makes it clear that the shooting has been proven to have occurred in a court of law. Now, the trial is not over, and the article should reflect that, but whether or not the shooting happened is not in doubt. Putting "supposedly" where User:Robertiki suggests would confuse readers. Howicus (talk) 20:32, 24 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
a) which words in the "keralaw" source make you agree that the word "supposedly" would be, my word, misleading ? b) which wording are you proposing to reflect that the trial is not over ? c) what do you think about "The methodology used by the Indians for the ballistic assessment was not adequate, ... Even though the Leika-built comparative microscopes they used were a little older but still no too far from the ones we use, they worked at a magnification level that was insufficient. It was too low to properly assess the microscopic features of the ammo and identify the weapon they were fired from. Moreover, the methodology that was used would be considered insufficient by Italian jurisprudence. In Italy, a ballistic comparative analysis is done by two experts, who document it photographically. In Kerala the test was conducted by a young girl, by herself and *without including any picture*.” [5]. d) about the Olympic Flair: I am not stating (and never done it) that from the greek ship someone has shot on the fishing boat. But I find that their report, if true, would suggest the presence of other armed people on boats. Armed people that could also have Nato bullet firearms. e) the only statement of a confession is from the indian police. I don't know if in India che police is deemed "neutral", but in Italy it has no privilege in the courts. Note: "Il Sole 24 Ore" is the leading financial newspaper and one of the most respected italian newspapers. --Robertiki (talk) 00:52, 25 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Independent opinion on this dispute : I endorse the decision by Howicus to reject the inclusion of the word "supposedly" in the lead text of the article. Official Italian and Indian court and investigation documents have discarded many of the hypothesis raised by Robertiki as either implausible or erroneous.
It apprears that Robertiki keeps repeatedly raising various stray hypothesis that are doing the rounds on conspiracy websites.
The wikipedia article as it stands today correctly reflects the current understanding of the chain of events of Italian and Indian investigators and courts. It also specifically states that the Enrica Lexie incident is still under investigation and that the trial will begin in a Special Court in India.
Thank you for your opinion, but I'd hardly call you "independent", seeing that you have made many edits to the shooting page. Howicus (talk) 16:13, 26 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
@Howicus (talk) It is clear that I have been associated in editing this article a few months back and still follow the article quite keenly. I have not been involved in this specific dispute and therefore consider myself 'independant' to this specific instance of the dispute (just one among several occasions which repeat every few months where Italian IPs have vandalised this article page).
The only point worth noting in my comment is that I too find the word "supposedly" as being out of place in the view of the latest status of hte situation on this matter.
To answer Robertiki's question, the sentence that convinced me that "supposedly" should not be in the article at that place is the one that begins "Whether the Italian Marines on board the vessel who shot down two Indian fishermen". This indicates to me that the court is not answering the question of whether or not the Italian marines shot two fisherman, so "supposedly" should not go there. Also, it doesn't really matter that Italian ballistics analysis is done with stricter requirements, because the case is taking place in an Indian court. Howicus (talk) 16:09, 26 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I see. The indian court has taken for granted the results of the Indian police ballistics analysis. If the Indian court jurisdiction was uncontested, that would be a argument. But there is a diplomatic row between the governments of Italy and India over legal jurisdiction. I should mention that the Enrica Lexie went voluntarily to Cochin Port. If it had put on his route, the question of jurisdiction would be empty. Now the Italian government has made a mess, as already remembered, flickering as the Italian governments are used. But that is no reason to present the story from one side. Anyway, the article is now so biased, that the question of "supposedly" is now moot. I will check my information, to try to give some explicit examples of bias in the talk page of the article. Next, about [6]. Reference of what the Oylimpic Flair had observed could be relevant ? If Italian responsibility is confirmed, it could give the reason of such an excessive reaction.--Robertiki (talk) 18:49, 28 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
@Robertiki Contrary to your affirmation, the IMO GISIS webpage submitted by the MT Olympic Flair [7] does not mention anywhere that the thieves/robbers were armed.
The Italian government has accepted (see Italian Defense & Foreign Ministers statements cited in the article) that the case go to a trial in India. Italy is no longer officially claiming exclusive 'flag-state' jurisdiction as done in the initial months following the incident. Furthermore, if and when the marines are returned to Italy under the prisoner exchange treaty, then the Govt of Italy has to (among other things) accept the verdict of the Indian courts is final and that there will be no appeal of the decision in Italy.
I am asking you not to dispute with me here. Your statement the I had "affirmed" that: 1) Olympic Flair has seen thieves/robbers and 2) that they where armed, are both false: the words are not MINE! A "possibility" is no affirmation, and the repeated attribution of statements not mine is irritating. If you like, there is the article talk page. I will limit to reaffirm that the Italian government is doing a mess. Example: [8]. Italy should have a) promptly apologized (no matter what happened), b) pay compensation, c) bring back the six soldiers (ordering the Enrica Lexie to stay on course). If that had been done, today the question would be closed. I would give you ad explanation of what is the real story (if you are interested): the Italian Government has "made" the case to distract from the dire domestic economic situation. If you read the news, in Italy there is a growing anger, and the tone of accusation against italians is of no help. And the one to benefit are the 'right wing' neo-fascist parties.You are helping them. To Howicus, I would propose to purge the article of all the political sensible content or at least lower the tone ("privately armed security guards","did not fully follow IMO Best Management Practices (BMP)", "pre-maturely opened fire", "shrapnel(???) extracted from the corpses", "slain Indian fishermen", are only some of the bad examples) and freeze it for one year. Wikipedia is not a newspaper, we can wait.--Robertiki (talk) 12:23, 29 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I see no reason to freeze the article. It's an evolving news story. Also, it's not really up to me to decide what content to "purge." That should be determined by consensus. Howicus (talk) 19:45, 29 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Hmmm ... I see the point and I'm not sure about the policy, guideline or essay on topic. Could be WP:NOTNEWS ? Wikipedia should not offer first-hand news reports on breaking stories. Wikipedia does not constitute a primary source. Wikipedia should also not to be written in a news style.--Robertiki (talk) 17:31, 30 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
. I suggest we use this for the article which would inform readers that the contents of the article may change over time. This will also address factual accuracy issues once the facts change. -Wikishagnik (talk) 21:35, 2 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Closing notice: There's not been an edit here in six days and this case is long past the date on which it would have been automatically closed and archived if this had not been filed during our subpaging experiment. Unless someone makes a strong case for keeping this open, a volunteer will close this as "Stale or resolved" after 18:30 UTC on August 13 14, 2013. Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 18:34, 12 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Howicus edit suggestion has been reverted by Yellowdesk and the IP user are continuing edit warring and have already reverted another edit: I opened today a talk section asking explanations, but the user started with a comment on the contributor [9]. The IP users are unwilling to any compromise and very active. --Robertiki (talk) 01:06, 13 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
With Robertiki's objection, I've extended the closing notice by 24 hours and left a note on Howicus' talk page asking for his thoughts on closing. Unless he weighs in for keeping it open, I think it should be closed. Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 13:22, 13 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
This is going nowhere. Yellowdesk reverted my edit because apparently the {{current}} template is not right in this instance. I don't think either side is willing to compromise, and the talk page discussion has turned into Robertiki and 90.42.252.79 accusing each other of personal attacks. Howicus (talk) 15:53, 13 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I am not interested in any 'personal attack' and am only responding to aggressiveness from Robertiki by pointing out his contradictory and disruptive attitude. Please read the talk page of the article and you will understand who is the user causing disruption and throwing around words such as LIAR, RACIST, etc.,
Robertiki earlier said some pretty outrageous and insulting things about Italy and Italians) and is now trying to portray himself as a 'victim' by attributing to others the allegations and insults that he initiated.
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
– General close. See comments for reasoning.
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