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Re: Juve 10/TFC

@Messirulez: Come va?, long time no talk! That was a shame about the Supercoppa eh, but Lazio played well and we didn't that much defensively...questioning Allegri's tactics. It was great we could claw back from 2-0, but that last gasp goal by Lazio was a dagger. Buffon played outstanding, without him it would've been another story. I think the Matuidi signing was pretty good, good all round midfielder for a decent price, but coming right after the Supercoppa loss, it seemed sort of like a panic buy. But hey, we've been talking about Matuidi coming to Juve for a while, it's now about time. Bernardeschi should also be good, nice young Italian talent. I couldn't believe PSG signing Neymar for 220+ million, shattering Pogba's record by over 100 million...that was crazy. Anyway, it was good Juve didn't let the loss phase them and comfortably beat Cagliari 3-0, but Milan and Inter got pretty good results too...then Lazio draws SPAL 0-0, they're so inconsistent. Buffon also did great again, especially saving that penalty awarded by VAR! Hopefully we can see this technology bring some more accuracy to the game. I'm curious to see the Champions League group stage draw on Thursday, hopefully it's good!

Also, I'm surprised there's also not much response to the renaming of UEFA Best Player in Europe Award at WT:FOOTY...if there is still little response in the next couple of days, you should be good to rename it. Saluti, Vaselineeeeeeee^★★★ 13:48, 21 August 2017 (UTC)

Hi! Yeah, regarding the Supercoppa, what can you do...I suppose at least Lazio have won it finally after playing us twice before and losing, but it's odd that we don't have a very good record in the competition under Allegri. It's a shame because Dybala made a great comeback and to lose it in injury time was painful. We definitely don't look as good on the right without Dani Alves, especially going forward, and we were a bit shaky at the back, but our defence should still be good I would imagine, with Barzagli and Chiellini (even though they are getting older...) as well as Rugani and Sandro. At least we came back with a good win for the Serie A opener, although thankfully Buffon stopped the penalty to keep us in the lead (it wasn't a great shot, but still he did well to read it and punch it away, and yes, hopefully technology will help avoid so many arguments, etc.); it will be an interesting season, we will see how the other teams do as several have become stronger, although I still think our main focus should be trying to win the Champions League, and just finishing in the top 2-3 in Serie A. Cuadrado is frustrating, as always, so hopefully Douglas Costa will be more reliable on the wing. He does look quite good and seems to be clever in his dribbling and not as selfish as Cuadrado, and his distribution and positional sense looks better as well, even though he's not quite as fast as Cuadrado. We will have to see how Bernardeschi will do; he has talent, but right now none of those acquisitions look great and we don't appear as strong this year, when it really seemed we had built a team that could win the Champions League (and we almost did, if we hadn't been so unlucky with deflections or fallen apart mentally in the second half, or if Cuadrado and Sergio Ramos hadn't both been so stupid). I hope De Sciglio can come back and redeem himself after the poor showing in the Supercoppa, especially as he once had so much potential and is still young, also as although I respect Liechsteiner, he really won't make a difference in Europe, unlike Dani Alves; he's solid, especially defensively, but offensively he isn't skilful enough or accurate enough in his delivery against big teams. Matuidi is a decent purchase; he isn't amazing but he's a good box-to-box player who works hard and wins back balls, so hopefully he will allow us to rotate the more fragile players like Khedira and Marchisio, and we can also use a three-man midfield now, which might suit Pjanic as it would give him more licence to create and get forward as he will be supported more defensively (he is good after all, but do I feel like he isn't mentally strong enough to be the playmaker who pulls the strings in big games like Pirlo would, so maybe with the defensive aspect off his mind he can do better; he had a good season overally last year with plenty of assits and a good amount of goals, and his technical quality and passing are undisputed, but he would often drift in and out of games. On his day he is brilliant, but there were also other times where he looked invisible). Dybala looks more confident now with the number 10 shirt, so I hope he can step up to the next level this season, especially in Europe; the same with Higuain, I hope after reaching the Champions League final and scoring a good amount in Europe he can do better in big games now, as that was my one worry with him: he's a great striker, but he often flops in decisive international matches. Hope we get a good Champions League draw as well. And yes, it's crazy about Neymar...I really didn't expect that! We'll see how PSG do this season...it will be interesting, and Barcelona, will they get someone? They have a lot of money to spend, and I'm sure players would be happy to go there, so I'm surprised they haven't bought anyone yet. Regarding the UEFA Best Player in Europe award, maybe I'm making too much of a big deal of it and reading too much into it; I suppose we can see how it is referred to when the award winners are named and then make a final judgement then as well.

Bye for now! Best, Messirulez (talk) 16:11, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

@Messirulez: Can you believe our draw? I mean it's not completely terrible, but it isn't that easy either...Barca, Olimpiacos, Sporting...then you got some groups like Monaco's, etc that are weak. This is how it goes I guess...I still think we will make it through, but they can't put their guard down. Also I found it annoying how Real Madrid players won every player award except for keeper...like come on...Then Ronaldo wins UEFA Men's Player of the Year Award. I think you should be able to move the article now, unless you want me to? Regards, Vaselineeeeeeee^★★★ 17:46, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

Actually the previous award UEFA Club Footballer of the Year exists as a separate article. I think I will ping some people to the discussion and see if they have anything to say. Vaselineeeeeeee^★★★ 18:03, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

I know, another difficult group for us (and the other Italian teams); it seems to be happening too frequently...Hopefully we will make it through and make a good showing in Europe. There are rumours we might be getting Howedes, which would be good, although hopefully we can get another good player to strengthen our team, and hopefully Dybala can really step it up in Europe this season as well. I understand Real Madrid winning the player awards to be fair, but maybe Bonucci or Chiellini could have won the best defender award (arguably even Marcelo) over Sergio Ramos (who is decisive with his goals, but not always the best defensively; probably if the award had existed last season then he should have won it, however). But Modric and Cristiano Ronaldo, there's no doubt they deserved their, same with Buffon. Yeah, we'll see what is said about the UEFA Men's Player of the Year articles; I don't think it needs to be moved, I just think it might need to be renamed, but then again, the positional awards also make it similar to the club footballer of the year award so...I don't know! Best, Messirulez (talk) 18:23, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

@Messirulez: After a nice win on the weekend, that wasn't a great start to the CL campaign, but we did have a lot of absences with Chiellini, Mandzukic and Khedira. I felt like we had a number of chances, but many of them were very weak shots, or later squandered. The defending wasn't great, De Sciligio almost caused a huge mistake in front of goal there, and even on the goals Benatia and Alex Sandro in particular made some mistakes. De Sciligio did get a decent shot off on goal, which should've gone for a corner. We did get another couple good shots, one was weak by Dybala as their defender caught up to him, and another at the end there when it was too late, was saved anyhow nicely by Ter Stegen. One cleared practically off the line as well. Higuian didn't play all that well either. I didn't really see what the issue or injury or something was with De Sciligio for him to come off so early, but Sturaro in his place was kind of strange when I saw that. Buffon had a really nice save in there too, none of the goals were really his fault (Szczesny had a pretty good game on the weekend, which was a little comforting to see if he's Buffon's heir). They'll need to pick it up from here though that's for sure. Regards, Vaselineeeeeeee^★★★ 22:01, 12 September 2017 (UTC)

Yeah, it was a bad defeat; what can you do. Messi was on fire today and scored some good goals. Hopefully we can win our other games and make it through to the next round. It's the first match, and in Barcelona, so hopefully it will help everyone focus on doing better. We started off ok as you said, with some chances, although they weren't all great shots, but we also made some bad mistakes and were ultimately dominated. Yeah, Szczesny played well, and has potential, but he's also inconsistent, which is a big issue for a keeper, so I still don't see him as a long-term replacement for Buffon, although maybe I will be proven wrong! Yeah, Sturaro can play that position, but it's annoying now that Liechsteiner was left off the European team sheet when De Sciglio went off injured. Hopefully things will go up from here! Best, Messirulez (talk) 22:38, 12 September 2017 (UTC)

@Messirulez: Oh man was that a tough loss to Lazio.....and at home at that to end our home unbeaten record of two+ years. I thought the first half we played well, Khedira came back and looked to be in decent form, almost had a goal there but it was well stopped by Lazio's keeper. It was nice to see Douglas Costa score his first goal for Juve. That was so close when Higuain almost scored that when he caught their keeper, unlucky bounce on the crossbar...but seriously in the second half we switched off. The defending wasn't good on Immobile's first goal, but I don't even think his second goal from that penalty was a penalty...Buffon didn't even touch him, although his fall looked pretty bad..onto his head even though he seemed to be fine after. Then Dybala hitting the post that was close, but how did he miss that penalty again at the last second. First, that was definitely a penalty, Patric didn't get ball at all, and thankfully the ref decided to check VAR. But for the second time, Dybala's penalty was poorly taken even though he's been generally pretty good with our penalties. Now Lazio is on our ass, along with Inter who hopefully lose tomorrow, but Napoli won today so they're really ahead. Juve's going to have to do some reevaluating to get back up there, and also with another must win Champions League game next week. Regards, Vaselineeeeeeee^★★★ 21:05, 14 October 2017 (UTC)

Yeah, it was frustrating to lose that game, but it's still early, and in spite of the pressure from other teams, I still don't think the other Serie A teams are able to compete with us at the moment, except for Napoli. It's frustrating that Immobile can't score for Italy, or outside the Italian league, but then he scores like crazy in Serie A, especially against us. I know I end up saying this every year, but I would rather we manage a top three finish and not win the league but qualify for the Champions League and do well in the Champions League instead, but it's easier said than done as we don't seem as strong in Europe this year. It's really tough without a world class right back and the defence is missing something with Bonucci, even though he was arguably the worst of the three BBC members from a purely defensive standpoint, but he read the game almost better than anyone and he brought a lot with his technique, passing, vision, confidence and leadership and really helped create and start plays from the back. Yeah, Higuain was so unlucky his block didn't go in! The second goal was difficult penalty decision to make in my opinion, because Buffon didn't touch him, but if Immobile hadn't jumped then maybe it would have been a penalty, but he did jump out of the way, so there was no contact, but then again it was probably 50% to avoid collision and 50% a dive to win a penalty... I'm not sure what the regulations are in those situations, maybe in those cases they should give an indirect free kick. At least the ref was sensible and didn't send Buffon off, and at least the VAR gave us our clear penalty, which had been missed, but unfortunately Dybala has struggled from the spot recently in two decisive situations, when last season he was almost infallible from the spot. Inter won today, and Napoli are ahead, and are arguably the favourites to win the league, but it's still early, and it's a long season... I don't know if the other teams have the same depth or experience that we do, but we'll see what happens I suppose. It might be fun to have a more competitive season for once, but we definitely need to imrpove, and we probably need look to obtain some more depth for when the squad is rotated in the January transfer window, but the new signings aren't adding too much as of recent and we've also had some injury problems which haven't helped our situation. We really do need a rightback to replace Dani Alves; at the moment we have a big gap in that area going forward. Hopefully we can win in the Champions League at home against Sporting; we really need to at home, and after the first loss, that's the most important match. Best, Messirulez (talk) 22:13, 15 October 2017 (UTC)

@Messirulez: Hey all is well? That was a pretty good win on the weekend away to Milan with Higuain showing some good form with his brace. Then in the game today he played pretty good as well, excellent goal and play to get him the ball. He could've had another as well off that header, but Patricio played pretty good today. Too bad we couldn't get the win though that would've seen us through for certain, especially since Barca somehow drew to Olimpiacos, we could've took the advantage, but on to the next one to secure round of 16. In the other news, TFC is playing fantastic, beating the all time points record for MLS at 69, and what a way to achieve it with an absolutely wonderful free kick from Giovinco to draw to Atlanta and take the needed point. That was a crazy good free kick hit exactly right! Then yesterday in first playoff match to NY Red Bulls he does it again from a set piece to take the winner! Those two road goals will be very nice to take back home with us. If Gio wasn't committed to the playoffs Ventura would be stupid not to call him. I've heard that he'll snub Balo and call Zaza back after good form with Valencia. Anyway, I hope TFC can redeem themselves from last year, it would be amazing! Regards, Vaselineeeeeeee^★★★ 02:21, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

Yeah, it's always nice to beat Milan, especially considering all the players they bought, but they've really been struggling; yes, Higuain scored two great goals and it was nice that Dybala was involved in both of them as well. Yeah, it's a shame we couldn't win today and pretty much seal our place in the next round, especially as Barcelona surprisingly didn't win (which is a bit worrying for us when we play them next, if they struggled to score...); we started off badly and were really struggling against their speed on the counter-attacks, especially our full-backs (although Barzagli made an amazing comeback to stop one of them which looked like it would turn into a breakaway, showing incredible mobility for someone of his age, as well as the tactical intelligence, physical strength, and experience we've come to expect from him), and it's frustrating that no-one could clear the rebound when Buffon managed to punch it out quite far (a really well placed follow-up shot as well right in the bottom corner; anywhere else and I'm sure Buffon would've had it), but at least we got back in it. Yes, it's a shame Higuain couldn't place his header at the other side of the goal (Patricio made a great save from point-blank range, although they also had another defender on the line ready to block/clear it; it was a nice build-up though, probably our best play of the night), but he did really well to finish on the goal, and I hope this and the brace at Milan will help his confidence in Europe. Yeah, TFC have been great! An MLS regular season point record, the Supporters' Shield, and Giovinco has been banging in the free kicks as you said, some great goals, especially that one against Atlanta! (If anything, Ventura should call him up just to take free kicks, as we don't have a specialist in the national team anymore, only a few players like Insinge, Candreva, Eder, Bernardeschi, and Gabbiadini, who are decent but not amazing set-piece takers). Yeah, it was a good win on the road, and I really hope TFC can go all the way this year, as they look really strong and confident in comparison to everyone else (and even defensively and in goal they look stronger and more organised than before, and Victor Vazquez has been an amazing addition (with his technique, vision, intelligence, and passing, he really takes some of the pressure off of Bradley and Giovinco to create goals, and he also makes everyone around him better as his passes are easier to control, and he controls passes better and is in the right place and sees the runs...he's had a lot of assists this season, which shows how important he was), and Altidore has also been playing well, and of course Bradley has been solid. Hopefully Giovinco can win the MLS Cup and get back into the national team! I know right now wouldn't be great for TFC with the Playoffs, etc., but I would still like to have him; if he doesn't get called up now, I hope we still qualify, and that he can be called up afterwards for the friendlies in the spring and then make the World Cup squad. Yeah, as much as I never liked Zaza I must admit he's been scoring like crazy for Valencia, so Ventura would have to be nuts not to call him up (although I wouldn't be surprised; we also risk losing a good player like Jorginho, as the Brazilian coach wants to call him up...), and Balo has also been doing well, but given his history, I doubt he will be called up either; Immobile has been playing well in Italy, but he doesn't play as well abroad, in Europe, or for the national side, so...I'm not convinced by him; not many players are doing that well for Italy, even the more talented ones or the ones who are playing well for their clubs, which is very frustrating. Best regards, Messirulez (talk) 03:09, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

@Messirulez: That was a good win today over Napoli to close the gap for the title, although there will still be more work obviously. Although the league isn't as important to us this year as we've said, it would still be nice to vie for the treble along with Champions League hoping we make it far once again; last group game next week, a must win really. Dybala made a good run and the pass to hit Higuain was great, and also a great finish by Higuain! That was also great vision of Pjanic to hit Matuidi there unfortunately he didn't hit it just right. We didn't have much possession, but we played pretty good defensively, although Juve kept being hemmed in their own zone like they always do making stupid passes! Man, how about that World Cup draw.... seriously half of the groups are a joke; group A is a sleeper and Portugal with Spain is laughable. Sweden got it pretty tough with Mexico and Germany, although they might still be able to make it out. If Italy were to replace Peru in group C with France and Australia that would be interesting, but again, not holding my breath. Hey, but TFC made it to the finals again, a reeematch with Seattle! Should be a good game next Saturday, hopefully we will be able to take our chances and take the Cup! That was good of Altidore to stay in the match like that and score the winner! Gio didn't play amazingly, and unfortunately he hit the wall with an early very much within range free kick. Seattle swept by Houston, while TFC haven't been particularly convincing in the playoffs, they should have what it takes to win it this year; I really hope so! Regards, Vaselineeeeeeee^★★★ 22:16, 1 December 2017 (UTC)

Yeah, it was a good result away from home, especially when Napoli are playing well and they are alwasy tough to beat at the San Paolo stadium; not a pretty win, and we didn't have much of the ball as you said, but we defended well behind the ball, didn't concede too many outright chances after we went up (although Buffon was still called into action a few times, especially after that stupid misplaced pass by Chiellini), and we got the job done and created a few chances ourselves (yeah that was a nice ball by Pjanic for Matuidi, but Reina made good save), which was the most important thing in the end. Yeah the counter-attack on the goal was nice and well-worked, with a good piece of skill and run by Costa, a nice final ball by Dybala and a good finish by Higuain; even when we play behind the ball, I really like how organised we are when we counter, as it's really nice to watch everyone moving so well and linking up nicely, although hopefully we can also grow and dominate more games like this in Italy with the players we have, and be more confident when playing in Europe as well, even though it's the result that ultimately counts, but I don't know if we can quite compete with the very best sides in Europe yeet. It's still early in the season though, so hopefully we'll improve and get into form at the right time, and it would be nice if we managed to pick up an interesting player during the January transfer window. Now I hope we can get a win in our last group match in the Champions League at least (although it won't be easy playing away in Greece though, even though everyone else has defeated them so far; I guess we need to hope that Barcelona will win their match as well, but I don't know if they will necessarily play their best as they are already first, but I suppose they always like to win and entertain) to seal our place in the second round. Yeah, I mean, I exaggerated a little bit when I said the league wasn't important to me this year, lol – it's always nice to win it –; I just meant that as we have won a lot of titles recently, and as what fans really want us to do is win in Europe, if it were between winning the league and going out in the round of 16 of the Champions League, or coming in second or third (sealing a Champions League qualifying spot) and going far (hopefully winning the tournament), I would probably prefer the latter, obviously! :) Yeah; without several good teams the World Cup looks a bit unbalanced this year, which is odd, as there are a few very difficult groups with several difficult teams grouped together (like you said about Spain's and Sweden's groups), and other groups which are "easier", if it's still ok to say such a thing! Yeah; I doubt we will actually make it in the end, as I also heard that there is a regulation which puts a limit on how many European teams are allowed in the tournamnet, but we'll see what happens in the end with the whole Peru situation, although, even though I would love us to be in the tournament, it would be really unfair on Peru as well. Yeah; I saw TFC made it through to the MLS Cup Final again, and hopefully they will win it all this year in another re-match against Seattle at BMO field after the disappointment last season! Columbus played really well and were very organised in how they defended and pressed and really stopped Toronto from doing much in the first half (especially Giovinco, who didn't have a great game), which was surprising considering TFC had all their top players and were the best team in the league this season, but the goal was a really nice bit of play, and Giovinco, Altidore and Vazsquez all did a great job there with their movement and link-up play and the finish was great; it was pretty stressful and close at the end with Columbus having some good opportunities, but Toronto held on. I still can't beleive Vasquez missed that penalty in the first half, although it was a good save. I know he's generally been good at them and that Giovinco missed one this season, but I was really surprised that Giovinco didn't take it. I know Seattle are in form right now while Toronto haven't been too convincing in the playoffs, in spite of being great all season, but hopefully Toronto will get into form at the right time and be back at their best again for the final and hopefully Giovinco can be in good form and score and create some goals (I would love to see him win the MLS Cup MVP trophy, and maybe even the Golden boot, and it would be nice for TFC to get a sort of domestic treble); I think last time maybe they peaked a bit too soon and were exhausted by the epic conference final match against Montreal, plus Gio wasn't entirely fit, and Seattle parked the bus. Hopefully Vanney will prepare the team well for the final, and hopefully Altidore will be fit after the injury he picked up in the last match as well. Best regards, Messirulez (talk) 00:03, 2 December 2017 (UTC)

Re: Italy/U-21 5

@Messirulez: Well, that performance couldn't have gone worse really. I felt we lacked many aspects today both attacking and defensive. Having Chiellini injured was a blow (which will also be bad for Juve-Barca if he doesn't come back in time), but Spain just outclassed us today. The only real chance we had was Belotti's header which was one of the only good deliveries we had into the box the whole match. Going down relatively early from that admittedly great free kick was a rough start. But again we didn't have enough urgency, when we were down, we just passed it around as if we were the ones who were up. Giving away fouls and turning over passes left right and centre. Verratti and Insigne did not play well at all. Bonucci will also be missed on Tuesday due to his yellow. Why Ventura didn't make subs prior to the 70th-ish minute is beyond me. Villa was called up after a 3 year absence which was cool to see although he didn't play, but it would be nice to see the same with Balotelli and Giovinco. Ventura calls for rebuilding still in the making, why not try out these avenues? This really isn't good enough. And it was a shame to go down with such a defeat to tear Italy's 56 game unbeaten qualifying match streak. Now Italy are destined for the play-offs even if they win every game if Spain continue on. They really need to pick it up if they want to qualify for the World Cup. Regards, Vaselineeeeeeee^★★★ 02:43, 3 September 2017 (UTC)

Yeah, we were pretty poor; I don't really like Ventura as our manager and I think he made a lot of mistakes. I don't think he has enough international experience. I get that we had to go all out and attack, and we did concede from a set piece which changed the game (although the defending which led to the free kick was bad; Iniesta made a great pass but we were caught off guard and let their players run though and Bonucci was forced to foul the player even though it was excessive), but for me the formation, the choice of players, the changes (which were late as well), and just about everything was wrong (unfortunately we were also missing Chiellini - on the other hand why on earth did he call up Montolivo again!?). To be honest, this time I personally thought Buffon should have done much better on the free kick (especially as it really affected the game), but the other goals weren't his fault; it wasn't very well placed by Isco, as it was fairly central and not right in the top corner, even though it was a decent strike (the second goal was a great shot though); unfortunately he took a step before diving which I think is why he didn't get there on time, because he was positioned fairly well and definitely could have reached it; oh well, mistakes happen, even for him but that was a decisive one, so its frustrating, especially as he made one against Spain last time, and after the Champions League final defeat against many of these players (at the Bernabeu as well). I always worry about him feeling his age, but even though he makes more mistakes now he usually ends up coming back and defying his critics, so in his last season I hope he can have one last great year and hopefully capture the Champions League with Juve, or at least go far in the competition, and have a good World Cup. Otherwise we were completly outplayed in the match and it seemed as if we weren't even trying; we didn't have too many chances (and the ones we had we didn't take - the Belotti chance was good and the rebound that De Gea gave, we should have done better), unlike them, and our younger and more talented players, like Insigne (apart from a couple of decent strikes), lacked character (Immobile I thought was hopeless, and I don't really like him with Italy), while a lot of our older players looked past it today as well (Barzagli struggled on the last goal and De Rossi seemed despondent at times, which has often happened to him in big games in the past). Verratti didn't play well as you said (when he should be our star) and he didn't do well defensively, especially against Isco, although he made one good througball that I remember; I think his game was summed up by the fact that when at one point he had the ball, but we were being put slightly under pressure by Spain's pressing, he decided to make a stupid and unnecessarily risky back-pass with his "weaker" foot to Buffon, which was way too hard and high (even though his passing is usually great), and obviously Buffon had trouble controlling it and ended up conceding a corner. Hopefully we will win all our other matches, but it seems the only way we will qualify is going through in the playoffs, which will be risky, as we don't know which opponent we will face, although hopefully we should manage it. The unbeaten record in qualifying being broken is a shame, but oh well, these things happen. Yeah, I know, the fact that Spain can call up Villa, who plays in the MLS, while Argentina have until recently called up Lavezzi, who plays in China (and Brazil have also called up players who play in the MLS, China, or in Mexico), when they all have better teams than us and stellar attacking line-ups, but we can't call up Giovinco, when we have no stars, because he plays in the MLS (and when our league isn't as good as it used to be) is just stupid, especially considering how well he is playing right now. Balotelli is unreliable and has a poor mentality and work-rate, so I really don't think he would make a difference at the moment, and he was poor against Napoli in the playoffs. Last season he was decent in Ligue 1, but it's not an amazing league either; I think he's past the point of no return, although I'm always hopeful with him as talent doesn't just vanish, and sometimes a player's mentality can click all of a sudden. We'll see what happens I suppose; for now we need to focus on winning the next match against Israel comfortably next week, as we struggled to take three points away. At least we have two home fixtures, and while the match in Albania will be tricky, at least they will be playing Spain beforehand, so hopefully we can build up an advantage and seal the second-place spot. It would be ideal if we won all of our remaining matches to try and get a high seeding for the playoffs. Best regards, Messirulez (talk) 03:16, 3 September 2017 (UTC)

@Messirulez: Man what's going on?? I couldn't catch the game, I was doing work and it wasn't on TV, but why is Cheillini the one scoring for us and a team like Macedonia drawing with us at home on top of it?? We needed a point to solidify the second place, but this is really shameful now. Ventura should really resign. Spain wins 3-0 or more every game just for fun and we can barely scrape by these teams... Draw will be on the 17th but I've read it's going by World Ranking, I haven't checked the other teams rankings, but Italy's has gone back down to a low point. This is becoming very iffy, this really shouldn't be happening... Oh also, they changed their logo eh...it's not terrible, but it's always an adjustment when logos are changed. At least it isn't as bad as the Juve logo change! Vaselineeeeeeee^★★★ 22:08, 6 October 2017 (UTC)

It was an awful performance, and yes, I don't like to put the blame solely on the manager, and people weren't happy with how Italy were playing prior to the Euros under Conte (but then at Euro 2016 with essentially the same team we were very united and organised and hard-working and tactically we played really well and obtained an impressive result), but Ventura really should resign, although I don't recall anything of the sort ever happening at this stage in the past (maybe the closest example was Sacchi being sacked during the 1998 World Cup qualifying stages, but that was fairly early on, and Maldini took over when it was still late 1996, but right now it seems likely we will make the play-offs, and I think he would only be sacked unless we didn't qualify, unfortunately); he seems like a nice guy, and I have nothing against him personally, but he really hasn't been convincing as a coach with Italy, and in spite of his extensive experience and respectable history with developing young players dragging weaker teams to good finishes in the league and qualifying for Europe, I don't think he's a good or successful enough manager for Italy, in spite of our general lack of quality at the moment in comparison to past sides (even though in the past sometimes we did well with less experienced managers, but then again with Donadoni we didn't do too well, even though we still managed to achieve a respectable result at Euro 2008 with an ageing side, even though we should have definitely done better with those players). I don't recall any really positive performances with him in charge except for maybe our first friendly match, which was basically our Euro 2016 squad, and a decent friendly against Germany, and the second half of our home game against Spain was promising, but that only came after conceding a goal and playing a dreadful first half; aside from that we basically scraped through almost all of our qualifying games, when we didn't have a difficult draw aside from Spain, and even when we won big large margins, we should have probably scored even more goals considering we were level with Spain on points at one point and needed to catch up to them in terms of our goal differential. But today, even though we knew Spain would beat Albania, which would guarantee that they finished first and us second in our group, with Albania in third, we needed to win this game to be guaranteed a play-off spot, and we were leading at home with 15 minutes left, but we didn't really create anything in spite of our sterile possession, we were playing with basically no midfield (only two box-to-box players who aren't partcularly creative or skilful, and I have no idea why he fielded such a team; I know we've had some injuries, but there are certainly other options, some whom he didn't call up. I'm not sure who's playing worse right now, us or Argentina, and we both risk not qualifying for the World Cup), and we had no ideas, creativity, playing identity, character, or personality on the pitch, we didn't play as a united team from a mental standpoint (and I'm sure there are problems in the dressing room from the way they players were playing) and tactically we were all over the place and very disorganised, conceding several silly chances, and depending solely on a couple of inventions by one or two of our more creative players up-front (and we basically needed Chiellini to charge up like a centre-forward to score because when we actually managed to create some scoring opportunities, Insigne wasn't clinical enough in his finishing and Zappacosta lacks the technical finesse to control a long pass and score a half-volley; I know he's a full-back, but modern full-backs are supposed to be more attacking...). Even Bonucci looks like his old error-prone self now that he has lost some confidence playing with Milan, who have so far been disappointing and disorganised with their newly acquired team. Considering that Ventura is known for developing young players, he hasn't really introduced too many consistently into the line-up who could definitely break into the first time; mainly just a few here and there as substitutes (I understand he needs to have a definite starting eleven, but he doesn't even seem to have a fixed system or set of players, as today he even left out Candreva). It's ridiculous that we couldn't even keep a clean sheet at home tonight or just score more goals when we were already up and put the match away comfortably. And yes, this was important not only to seal a spot in the play-offs and ensure a good draw, but also for the ranking and for our morale and pride. I know Giovinco right now is injured, but I just kept thinking that I'm sure he could have done something against Macedonia's defenders. I don't agree with several of his call-ups either, or his choice of players/formations. We definitely need to win the next game and hopefully we will get a good play-off draw if we do that. I would love if Ancelotti would take over, that would be ideal, especially given his amazing record in tournaments, but I think he turned down coaching national sides recently and said he wasn't interested in the Italy job; I don't know if even he would be able to save this Italy side, and I would probably prefer if he had a better side to work with that could actually challenge for the title, although I suppose anything can happen depending on the draw, etc. I actually don't mind the new logo/kit too much, even though it's not my favourite one and it will certainly take some time to get used to it, but I suppose that right now I care mainly about how we do rather than our logo/kit! :) I used to be more annoyed about certain kits (I couldn't stand the 2010 World Cup kit with the abs on the front of the jersey, for example... or the 2009 Confederations Cup kit with the very pale blue top and the brown or black shorts; that colour combination really didn't work, and I don't see why they would deviate from the usual white or blue shorts!), and I didn't like our 2006 World Cup kit initially (or the Euro 2004 kit which also had gold numbers with the times new roman-esque font), but in the end we won the 2006 edition of the tournament, so now I love that kit because of the memories it brings back! :) On the other hand I really liked our 2002 World Cup kit, but that tournament brings back bad memories because of our poor showing and the shocking officiating, so now I don't really like it as much! Hopefully we will win our last game, although I think it will be difficult as Albania will be at home and will still playing for pride, especially as being so close to us geographically as well, and as they were coached by De Biasi until recently, I'm sure they see us as a football rival and would like to beat us, and knowing Ventura he might rest a bunch of our "starters" because we are already guaranteed second place, which would be a bad idea; if we had won today, then maybe he could have done that, but not anymore. Anyway, fingers crossed for next week! Best regards, Messirulez (talk) 22:45, 6 October 2017 (UTC)

@Messirulez: Yeah I feel the same way. We haven't had many promising games, and even almost had to settle for a draw the last time we played Macedonia. There are many gaps in Ventura's managing, but yeah, resigning now might not be the best time...but it may to be late by the time it does. I'm curious to see who they get in the playoffs because looking at the second place teams, they could get matched up with Portugal or Croatia which would seriously be a toss up. The players he's been fielding from day one always seemed to make us scratch our heads. I was reading on Football Italia that he was again asked about Balotelli, and that he would only consider him once Italy qualifies to do some testing. I don't really know what's going on with Giovinco right now, he's been out for quite some time now, but that hasn't stopped TFC from winning the Supporters' Shield...the Cup is next this time! I don't know if you've seen this yet, but Giovinco recently wrote a cool story about his beginnings in football and where he is today. It's a pretty interesting read. But yeah, Italy needs to get the win against Albania, but it will be away and Albania seem to be better than Macedonia, because Italy are already in 17th place in the Rankings, and they will be updated the day before the draw, and will certainly go down further without a result. It would be nice if Ancelotti overtook Ventura, but yeah I've heard he doesn't want to take a national team job and that we won't coach a team till June. And yeah, I hated the 2010 abs kit too, didn't mind the 2006 kit, but logos usually last a bit longer than kits that get changed every couple years or so. But the new logo could've always been worse ahaha. Regards, Vaselineeeeeeee^★★★ 02:23, 7 October 2017 (UTC)

Glad we managed to get a win away against Albana, although it was another poor performance; the only positives were the result, obviously, and Chiellini's performance. He was a rock at the back, and I can't believe that he of all people was even carrying the ball up and trying to launch the strikers with his long passes and even trying to get forward... Bonucci has really beeen struggling since joining Milan, which is frustrating as we need him to be confident on the ball for Italy, but he wasn't doing too much. Buffon did quite well on a few shots, and initially they created more than us. Candreva was quite poor for once, missing a lot of crosses, although he did beat a few players on the wing, and he got the goal in the end. Immobile was dreadful, as was Eder; both were extremely wasteful, didn't move enough to try and help each other out, and they weren't even pressing that well, even though they are known for their work-rate, and Parolo was being forced to push up to press the defenders carrying the ball out, so then when they bypassed out press, we only had one midfielder and ended up being completely stretched and unblanaced, and they would charge right through us whenever they countered and often had a man advanatage when attacking in the final third. Once again I have no idea why Ventura still resorted to that formation with two midfielders and attacking wingers, although I suppose he didn't call up many midfielders; maybe he could have tried playing Bonucci in midfield though, or maybe a 4-2-3-1 with Bernardeschi as an attacking midfielder. Insigne was ok; he showed some glimpses of flair and skill and made a few good dribbles and passes, and a couple of his shots tested the keeper, although he didn't do too much other than that, but he was the guy that did the most upfront. Our full-backs/wing-backs were ok, not particularly great. I still don't know what the right thing to do with Balotelli is, but I don't see why Ventura would want to leave it so late to try him out. I hope he does call up Giovnco and that Giovinco can prove him wrong. Now we need to hope we get a decent draw (it's a bit stupid that it's done based on ranking, but at least because of our points total we are seeded in the top half). Then hopefully we can seal qualification as well. It's funny because Buffon made his debut for Italy 20 years again against Russia in a World Cup playoff as a sub for the injured Pagliuca (and in the actual tournament it ended up being the first time he was in the Italy team, albeit as a back-up), and now he needs to qualify for the World Cup IN Russia, which will probably be his last, by playing a playoff once again. Hopefully he can help us through and I still hope we can have a decent tournament so he can go out with a bang. Hopefully TFC can win the MLS Cup after the Supporters Shield this season; they've been the best team and Victor Vasquez has also been outstanding and has taken some of the creative responsibilities off of Giovinco and Bradley, and Giovinco has also freed up Altidore more even when he can't score. The article is interesting to read; hoefpully he can go all the way this time, and I would also like to see him do well with TFC in the Concacaf Champions League next season. Best, Messirulez (talk) 21:13, 10 October 2017 (UTC)

@Messirulez: Yeah thankfully we got the win yesterday to be seeded, I wouldn't want to be facing teams like Croatia and Switzerland right now. We will still face either Greece, Ireland, Northern Ireland, or Sweden. I don't really know who is the best to get from that, but we'll see. Yeah, the game wasn't that good, our strikers were being very wasteful as you said, and Candreva was also missing a lot of crosses...but at least he got the goal. Immobile has been playing really well for Lazio, but still needs to find himself a bit for the national team. I think it was him who also had a great chance, basically a breakaway at the end there to go up 2-0 but somehow couldn't score. Those are shots you need to bury. Buffon played pretty good, got a couple decent saves. Yeah that is coincidental he made a playoff debut 20 years ago and now closing with another playoff series. I really hope Italy gets through, it would be an utter tragedy if not. It's just really annoying seeing some teams like Serbia make the world cup already, but other good teams like Italy, Portugal and Netherlands struggling to make it in tough groups. I really don't know why Ventura is using this strange formation either, it really isn't working. We know De Rossi and Marchisio aren't fit, but there are other things to make it work. I think at this point, Balo should be called up, at least for the friendlies in March. I don't know if Gio will be called for the playoffs because we'll need him for the MLS playoffs, but he should definitely be used in March. Pirlo's also retiring, which is something which was predictable, he's had such an amazing career. Hey Argentina made it in in the final match, with Chile crashing out shockingly. Peru has surprised. It has to be Italy's turn to go through next. Regards, Vaselineeeeeeee^★★★ 01:32, 11 October 2017 (UTC)

Yeah; I'm not sure who would be best to get, as Greece are tough, organised, physical, defend well, and can counter, and even a team like Northern Ireland run a lot, are physical, and have a good spirit. Ireland and Sweden will also be tough opponents as well (as we saw at the Euros last year), and both teams seem to have gotten better this year. Yeah, Immobile seems to only play well in Serie A to be honest, which is why I find him frustrating, although he's still our top goalscorer right now in World Cup qualifiers, but that chance at the end...come on, how does he not finish that? He needs to try and improve his technique on the ball as well, there were too many times he miscontrolled the ball. Yeah, the groups were frustrating, how some groups didn't have a really strong team, but we had Spain, so we have to go through the playoffs; really hope we do qualify, it would be devastating if we didn't, but we need something to change. We have a problem right now within the team, and the young players also don't seem to be stepping up or good enough, even though we do have quite a few interesting players. Yeah, De Rossi and Marchisio were out, and Verratti picked up an injury as well (and Belotti was out on top of that, when we could have used him - even if he had called up Zaza, who is playing well, even though I've never been too fond of him, he also had an injury), but I don't see why he didn't bring Jorginho along when he's played well for Napoli, instead of certain other midfielders. I really hope we make it through considering how frustrating it's been with this draw, and how senseless the ranking system is in determining the seeding for the groups when we had a good Euro and they should've taken that into consideration before planning out the groups; ugh! Yeah, Pirlo is retiring, which is sad as he's still always magical to watch on the ball even though he doesn't move much anymore. It's sad because I would've liked to have seen go out on top (maybe he should've retired last year after a decent season with New York if he really wanted to play in the MLS after reaching the Champions League final with Juve in 2015), and this season really wasn't great for him with all his injuries that limited his playing time (apparently he said the cartilege in his knees is completely worn) and the press bashing him for his poor work-rate while no one except Villa in the team is on the save wavelength as him, but he's had an incredible career, and is one of the best players and passers of all time and one of the best I've been lucky enough to watch, even live, such a unique player; I don't think I've ever seen a playmaker with his vision and long passing ability, and along with Xavi, who was a similar midfielder but also quite different at times, he's probably the best player ever in his position. Kakà also said he would be retiring; once again, he was an amazing player, one of the best I've seen who was absolutely devasting with his speed, skills, passing, and shots from distance, and whom I always admired even when he was a rival at Milan (sort of like Pirlo initially, or like Messi for me now). It's also sad to see him now, a shadow of the player he was because of all the injuries which affected his mobility, and he looks so much more jagged in his movements compared to when he used to glide across the field in his prime. Yeah, I saw Argentina qualified; I'm glad I'll get to see Messi at another tournament, I just hope we will be there as well with Gigi and Co. Shame Chile are out considering the players they have and how well they have done in tournaments recently; they were unlucky not to qualify considering how no team was really certain of a spot except for Brazil, and how it was all up in the air until the last matchday; it's nice for Peru though, and it would be great if they could go through to the finals. Best, Messirulez (talk) 01:52, 11 October 2017 (UTC)

@Messirulez: Man that was a complete and utter mess. I really can't friggin believe it...how is it they get a crazy lucky deflection like that...and we of course miss that Belotti header and Darmian post??? But seriously why did we play 3 at the back?? Chiellini was the one controlling the ball the whole game and he is not the one who should be making out plays. Verratti was once again not good, as he has been with the national team for a while which is contrary to what everyone says about him in club football which is unfortunate. Bonucci didn't play well either, way too many long balls being blindly played and nothing ever friggin comes from it!! It's just a complete waste. We were pretty dominate in the second half, but nothing to show for it, and we really did deserve better than a loss. This squad has not worked for a while now, and there hasn't been enough done to try and fix that...yes Ventura calls up Zaza, but unfortunately he injured himself in training. Seriously this is just shocking we couldn't break this team down. We're gonna have to score at least one to send it to extra time obviously, but those away goals are scary. If they get one goal we'll have to score three...the way we've been playing that would be a near impossible task. The situation we are in right now is just heartbreak and infuriating. The ref was okay, I think this ref is usually pretty decent, but was it just me or was he officiating too close to our players...he was blocking the pass sometimes!! This will have to be the best game they've ever played Monday. Vaselineeeeeeee^★★★ 22:43, 10 November 2017 (UTC)

Yes, it was dreadful; we were really poor and this is very worrying as we lost (the only thing I can say was that at least it was "only" by one goal and "only" away, but we didn't even get an away goal; a 2–1 defeat would've still been bad, but then we could've said well at least we have an away goal). Already a 0–0 draw would've been bad enough and tough to bring into the second leg, especially if they managed to score a goal at home; I was hoping we could've come away with a tie and an away goal, but this is so frustrating and it makes me really sad and angry even though it is only football after all. The last time we didn't qualify was 60 years ago...it would be so embarrassing not to qualify now, especially when there are teams who are even worse than us in terms of individual talent who had far easier qualifying groups; the last time we had to go through the playoffs, in 1997, when Buffon made his debut, I was still quite a young kid, and that was bad enough... I really hope we kick ourselves in the backside and win convincingly at home, as I really want to see Buffon play one last World Cup and have a decent showing, especially after two consecutive first-round exits at the World CUp. I know our team isn't great right now in terms of individual talent and we don't really have any superstars, and the plays who were decent before, like our defenders, have gotten older now, but Conte still did a good job with a less talented side (no Verratti or Marchisio, who is out again right now though I suppose), and our youngsters did well at the past under-21 European Championship, so I don't think the lack of great players is the biggest problem (although I do think there is a problem with the quality of the Italian league right now and with the space that talented Italian players are given, especially in bigger teams), I think it's the fact that the team aren't prepared, united, or organised and that the manager and the entire management team and directors aren't motivating or inspiring confidence in them. It's frustrating once again that the draws/groups were what they were, as probably in another group we wouldn've have had to go through this stress. Yes, in the end, even though we didn't play well, we didn't deserve to lose either, as Sweden didn't really do anything or create much and were basically in their own half for most of the second half, and only got a lucky deflected goal, whereas we hit the post with Darmian as you said and then Belotti missed a sitter, but they were very tight defensively and strong and physical on high balls and we really couldn't break them down, so all credit to them, and I think we once again underrestimated them when they have been a solid team that has done well in qualifying. Verratti was disappointing once again, yes, which is frustrating considering he's so good for PSG, but at the same time I thought it was so stupid to take him off for Insigne; why didn't he bring on another playmaker like Jorginho instead, especially if he had called him up, as whenever Parolo and De Rossi have been isolated in a two-man midifeld we have never created anything, and afterwards our play in midfield was so slow. And why did he bring Insigne on so late? He's our most talented forward, so he should've brought him on right after we conceded the goal, not Eder, who has been dreadful. And I agree; the 3–5–2, even though it has worked well in the past, just showed that we were being cowardly and looking to defend more than anything, and Bonucci is really in poor form and lacking confidence at the moment as you said and wasn't initiating much, and Chiellini, the least skilful of the three defenders had to, as you said, and no one was trying to run onto Bonucci's passes when he actually did make them and they ended up going nowhere and we lost the ball. Switching to a 4–2–4 was also stupid in my opinion as we didn't have any really good strikers in the air who could beat the Swedish defenders and get on the end of crosses, although I suppose all my criticims are much easier in hindsight, but obviously there are major problems with the team at the moment. We've been absolutely awful under ventura, and although we've been less solid defensively and have conceded stupid goals, the worst part is the fact that we can't score or dominate teams in midfield. To be honest, both he and that racist, homophobe, troglodyte, incompetent idiot Tavecchio deserve to be fired immediately, but right now that probably wouldn't help our situation and would definitely unsettle the team even more, but if we were to go through (and hopefully we will), I don't think they should keep him on (and obviously if we weren't to go through, he would be fired, but that would be too late and this would probably go down as our worst ever Italy side). Yes, it's frustrating that Zaza in the goalscoring form he's in right now couldn't play due to injury; hopefully he can come back and score a few in Italy. The fact that Giovinco was excluded, given how poor we were, and given that Eder was awful once again, just frustrates me even more, especially as Giovinco would have been fresh to give it his all as unfortunately he's disqualified for the first leg of the conference finals. Yeah, I didn't think the ref was amazing either to be honest, but no he didn't make any game changing decisions or anything like that and didn't really influence the match. Fingers crossed for the next game; playing like this it will be tough even to just score one goal to take into extra time...and also to not give up a goal will be difficult (if we do, we are screwed), but obviously I really hope we can do it. Yes, we really need to play well (our very best), score a lot of goals, not conceded them, and win convincingly. I know that people sometimes say that we like to go through "sufferring" and we start slowly and don't always give it our all until necessary, but that doesn't always work out well, and at the same time I really remember the past two first-round exits in the World Cup, and I really want to avoid that horrible feeling again. Best regards, Messirulez (talk) 05:05, 11 November 2017 (UTC)

@Messirulez: Dude............. How can we even begin to describe a World Cup without Italy??? Ventura seems he was only destined for failure, and bringing our beloved team and reputation down with him. It's very sad to see, especially since his tactics were all over the place and could not get the team to gel properly. The formations he played most of the time were crazy, and leaving star quality on the bench and at home. He will likely resign or get fired, but it's too little too late and should've happened much sooner. Look at what Croatia did with their coaching situation, and they made it. It's painful to see the only goal coming from a horrid deflection off De Rossi in the first leg, especially when we had quite a few really good chances with Belotti and Darmian, and in the second leg as well, however, also many wasted opportunities. As we've said, Bonucci since joining Milan has looked in worse form, making several blind passes up the middle which led to dangerous counter attacks. It was agonizing to watch the minutes wind down without a goal to show for it, that goal we so desperately needed just to take to extra time. We were fortunate not to get two penalties called on us, but at the same time, we could've had a penalty first. 60 years since this last happened and it comes at a time where Italy have been lackluster at the past two World Cups as well. So, so, so sad that Buffon, Chiellini, Barzagli, and De Rossi's careers end in such a fashion. Especially for Gigi...he always wanted to retire after the 2018 World Cup, play at 40 like Zoff, but never even came to fruition. It frustrates me that we were even in this situation, having to be in Spain's group, then coming second to play arguably the hardest second seed playoff team the Swedes. It also frustrates me how teams like Serbia and Denmark/Ireland are in the World Cup, but not Italy. It's just unbelievable. This summer will not be the same with all the football going on around us and not being able to take part. It's so very hard to swallow. Anyway, hopefully this will allow the national team to rebuild and give youngsters experience before Euro 2020 qualification. Regards, Vaselineeeeeeee^★★★ 02:40, 14 November 2017 (UTC)

Yeah, it's very sad to see us missing out; I'm so disappointed, and don't really know what to say to be honest, although I must admit that after the first leg defeat I had a very bad feeling we wouldn't make it, sort of the similar feeling I had prior to the Italy-Uruguay game at the last World Cup, but I'm still shocked. In the end this was probably one of our better games with him as we seemed a bit more driven, but nevertheless we still failed to score, and the damage had already been done in the first leg. Yes, as we've both said countless times, Ventura was not suited to the job and constantly made the wrong tactical decisions and wasn't able to control the dressing room either in my opinion. But in the end, I think the Italian FA are more at fault for hiring him, and Tavecchio, like Ventura, needs to step down now. Yes it's frustraing once again that after our chances, and that post in the first leg, that it was a deflected goal which eliminated us, but we knew we had to score and that they would be hard to break down (all credit to them for defending so well behind the ball) and yet we couldn't and that simply isn't good enough; too little too late and almost frenetic at the end. It's also still very frustrating that the draw was so harsh for us as well, when other teams had an easier road to qualification than us. Yes, we didnt create enough, and were a bit unlucky with some chances, while being wasteful with others. Yes, Chiellini was once again taking charge, but Bonucci did look a bit more confident than usual a least, even though his misplaced pass led to that counter-attack in the second half as you said. It's frustrating that Ventura chose to play with three defenders because there were several times that Chiellini was the player in the best position to receive the ball and have a striker, but that isn't his strong point. Yes, I think all three decisions could've been penalties, but in real time I think the ref was right to let play continue. Yes, it's very sad for Buffon, Barza, De Rossi and Chiello to go out like this, but at least they've all had great international careers, although that still doesn't take away from the fact that they deserved a better international send off; I wanted Chiello to have a decent World Cup after two disappointing consecutive first round exits, and reach 100 caps, and I also wanted Buffon to have a great final showing and break the international appearance record, as well as others. Oh well, what can you do. It really sucks and the World Cup will not be the same without Italy; being one of the most successful football nations of all time, and having always managed to qualify since 1958, our team really is synonymous with the World Cup. I suppose all we can do is try and start afresh and rebuild as you said; hopefully this failure will be the kick in the backside we need to help us to wake up, examine the many flaws within our system and try and sort them all out and develop young talent. Best regards, Messirulez (talk) 07:38, 14 November 2017 (UTC)

@Messirulez: Yes, it hurts. I can't believe Ventura hasn't resigned by now, or that we wasn't fired by now! Even Tavecchio should resign as you said. If they had any dignity or remorse they would've by now. It surely has to be coming though. When your own players are getting frustrated with the coach as De Rossi was seen on the bench asking why the hell they wanted him to warm up instead of Insigne, that's when there's a problem. There were way too many crosses which resulted to nothing. When we did have most of our chances was when we finally decided to shoot the ball from the box. I suppose there was no reason to leave all 3 centre backs on at once, it would've been good to see another player like Insigne come on, although he was played out of position in the first leg and didn't do a whole lot. I thought El Shaarway made a great impact on the game in the last 20 minutes or so though, and he has been in good form with Roma as well. There are too many shoulda, coulda, woulda's and not enough action. Ventura says our record was good under him, they needed to secure second place and top seed which they did, but only so merely! The last 6 games I think the stat was only 3 goals scored; that is worrisome. I hope Rugani and Romagnoli can strengthen with most of the BBC gone, Berardi, maybe Rossi can come back, Balo, Gio, El Sha, Belotti, Insigne etc etc can be given a chance to perform. I hope this will provide fire for the Italians on Juve to perform well with them and to go far in Champions League. Regards, Vaselineeeeeeee^★★★ 18:21, 14 November 2017 (UTC)

Yes; I'm still down about it and it still stings, and I can't believe that after this he didn't step down and wanted to talk with the Italian FA and that he also wanted his payout (and that on top of that he had the gall to say that his recor was one of the best...the two games he lost were our most important! What the heck did he expect? We weren't convincing in the other games and didn't score enough, and he was always so negative in press conferences and in the way he had us play on the pitch, and aside from Spain, we didn't have a difficult group, so we should've won all those games comfortably and at least tried to be a bit more of a challenge for Spain in the second group match against them, instead of fielding that ridiculous 4–2–4 with only two mids). Tommasi was also annoyed that Tavecchio didn't resign as he wanted to start anew. Yes, I agree, De Rossi showed that there had definitely been issues building up in the dressing room and even Buffon contradicted Ventura a few times in press conferences something which I don't really remember him doing in the past. Yes, the crossing tactic obviously wasn't going to work when they had lots of tall, strong players who are good in the air and defending behind the ball, pushing as out wide, and we only had Parolo who was good in the air...no Belotti or Zaza, or De Rossi. As you said, El Shaarawy definitely had a far greater impact than anyone else, and if he didn't want to play Insigne (and why was he always so stubborn about that; I know Insigne hasn't always played well, but we lacked speed, skill, and creativity upfront, and for his own sake even I don't see why he didn't respond to popular demand, as if he had at least given him a good chance, and he still flopped, then he could've said, well at least I tried him and he wasn't good enough, so my instincts had been correct before) then I don't see at least why El Sha wasn't started in his preferred role on the left wing given the form he's been showing for ROma, as he came on far too late, although I wish his volley had been slightly higher - maybe it would've gone into the top corner. I'm no manager, but I would've gone with a 4–3–3 formation over the 3–5–2 (even though it worked under Conte, with Ventura we play completely differently and it hasn't been working) as that would've allowed several offensive-minded players to play in their favoured roles, and on top of that there were too many times where Chiellini was running up and getting into good positions because we had no one else there but he's limited in what he can do with the ball both offensively and creatively; I don't think we needed three centre-backs and wing-backs, so maybe Bonucci could've been excluded this time given his poor club form and lack of confidence on the pitch, although in spite of some misplaced passes he did look a bit better than in the previous games I thought. Jorginho and Florenzi looked decent at least, which is one positive thing to take away from the game. On top of that Immobile in particular but also all of our other strikers have been unable to score and have struggled to find the back of the net in many of the past few games (which is why I would've given Giovinco a chance maybe; we really needed goals against Sweden, but even against our other opponents during qualifying, as aside from Spain we didn't have a very difficult group and should've won by comfortable margins). Hopefully all those new talented young players can do well now if we build from the bottom and focus on their development; we'll see who replaces Ventura now that he's gone, who do you think will get the job? Ancelotti would be great but he has said that he doesn't want to coach Italy; Ranieri is no longer free (although I don't think he would be the right choice), maybe Guidolin would be interesting, Mancini is also decent, and there has been talk about possibly Mazzarri, Spalletti, Di Francesci, Di Biagio, Sarri, Montella or Allegri taking the job. I would rather have a manager with a bit more experience. As you said, I hope Juve can make up for this disappointment by at least doing well in the Champions League for Buffon, Barzagli and Chiellini, but I don't know if we have the team to do that right now either. I'm hoping we can strengthen the squad in the next transfer window, maybe with a right back, or hopefully De Sciglio can pick things up. Best regards,Messirulez (talk) 15:42, 16 November 2017 (UTC)

@Messirulez: Yeah, finally Ventura was sacked, but he should've resigned, and too little too late! He's just a complete fool and delusional, and I think his coaching career is finished, especially with his age and after this mess. How could he say he only lost two games, when those were the most important as you said?? And a few of the others were not convincing wins over mediocre teams. I'm wondering if he didn't resign because if he did he wouldn't have gotten the 800,000 pay out? This is why I don't think you should sign managers for such a long period of time; complete waste of money going to an imbecile. They probably hired Ventura because he was cheaper and had some experience, but really what has he done, coach Torino? It's not good enough; this is what happens when you don't take the CT seriously! That's why I'm also wary of Guidolin, he hasn't managed really any significant teams, and he's pretty old as well. At this point, they need to pick someone who can pick up this team. And yes, Tavecchio should resign as well. As Cairo said, you can't move on like nothing happened. Ventura was just so damn stubborn and there were just so so many things he could've done to prevent this debacle from happening. I think Mancini could be good, but he has said in the past he doesn't like using foreign players much, but if we wanted to exclude Eder with at least trying Seba and Balo, please do. Yeah, and as you said, I don't know if Ancelotti would take the job, but now in these circumstances, you never know. The thing I'm worried about Seba is though is that in the MLS he does go down a lot whenever a player so much as touches him...I'm not sure if the refs in Europe would call that, and he would have to learn not to go for the foul all the time and stay on his feet. He hasn't been a force in mid play in recent games, but hopefully he can prove his worth anyway with the next coach. With Ventura, the formations were wrong and didn't suite the team anymore. I would've gone with 4-3-3 as well. He had multiple chances to test things, but nothing changed! This Italy team was very similar to Conte's team, and yet they fail. This team does not deserve to go down as one of the worst Italy teams in history, they don't deserve that label. A lot of the blame goes to the coach. As previous players have said, there have been "worse" Italy teams in the past that could do better...although the "weaker" nations probably have gotten better. More now than ever, if Juve could win the CL, Buffon could go out the way he deserves. I don't know if they can do it either, but we always hope...a lot of strong teams have gotten weaker as well, maybe with the exception of PSG. I'm worried for Italy's ranking though now. It will probably plummet, definitely past 17 for our worst ranking in history. Spain is also in pot 2 for the World Cup, that will be a group of death whoever is drawn in it. But there's another classic placement by FIFA which is total nonsense. You know, we will have a lot of friendlies, so hopefully we can get results because that's all that FIFA uses! In order to avoid another stupid pot like this for the 2020 Euro qualification. Regards, Vaselineeeeeeee^★★★ 16:49, 16 November 2017 (UTC)

Yeah. We were saying this before that even if we had qualified he should've resigned because of how bad we were playing (and Tavecchio with him), or even because of how badly things were going after the Spain loss and we were so down in terms of our morale; it was obvious something was deeply wrong. I know Spain's Euro 2016 team was different, but under Conte we managed to beat them, so I maybe could've forgiven a 1–0 or 2–1 loss, but to be demolished like that simply wasn't good enough, especially considering how stupidly the players had been fielded. Yeah, his appointment was perplexing from the start; I completely agree that he had so many chances to try out new systems and players (and the 4–3–3 should have been a no-brainer as it is popular in Europe, we have several wingers, and Insigne and Jorginho use it for Napoli), but didn't, and even though he kept oscillating between then 3–4–3, 3–5–2 and 4–2–4 and had his favourite players he never quite seemed to decide upon a fixed formation or starting eleven. I still don't know why they went with him, and to some extent this is more the fault of the incompetent FA more than is, even though he should've realised he wasn't up to the task. But if they had gone with Guidolin back then (maybe now he's a bit old, but at the time I think he could've done well) I would've said at least he has actually managed to win a title with a small Italian team during his career and in a much more competitive time for Italian football and also did well with a bunch of smaller teams: he also did decently in Europe when he took Vicenza to the Cup Winners Cup semi-finals and also did well with Bologna, Palermo, Parma and took Udinese to the Champions League playing excellent attaking football, so he actually was someone who could adapt his game (and he did well with Swansea and was unfairly sacked; to be honest, I've always been wondering why he was never given an opportunity with a big team, as he actually seemed like a really good manager at one point, who was very versatile, unlike Ventura), whereas Ventura had no International/European experience and had done ok with some smaller sides, but that's about it, and has never won anything either, so he obviously wasn't at the level we needed and the one thing we have right now is a lot of good managers, so I'm still scratching my head over why he was chosen to lead this team. I think because we didn't qualify this will probably will end up going down as our worst ever side, and we will probably get our lowest ever ranking as well, but that's mainly because of Ventura and the incompetent FA; in the 50s we supposedly didn't qualify in large part as we were still feeling the negative effects of the Superga Air Disaster as that Torino side made up of most of the Italian side, but this time there was no excuse. People were saying that our Euro 2016 team was our worst team on paper (and I thought so at the time as well, especially once Verratti and Marchisio were ruled out; aside from a few players, it probably was worse than this one, although at least Graziano Pellé could put the ball into the back of the net and could hit double figures in the Premier League unlike Immobile and co.), and it certainly looked like it, but we still managed to do well with someone like Conte in charge, and it was certainly one of the most organised and united teams we've had in the end, and I think everyone really like that squad and got behind them in a similar way to our teams which performed even better in the past. Right now, we still don't really have any superstars, as we did before, except maybe just Verratti, but he has always seemed like he was really isolated in this team; Marchisio is often injured, Jorginho is good but was only played once, and the only real positive things about this team were that we had a good defence and goalkeeper, although they've all been getting older (and Bonucci had to go and move to Milan, which seemed to further unsettle everyone and saw him really dip in form); Insigne is definitely talented but hasn't been playing all that well but at the same time he can't be expected to do well by being played out of position and without organisation, El Shaarawy barely played, and not many young players have really been given that many opportunities aside from Belotti (Bernardeschi just a few substitute appearances; Berardi never, and many others haven't' Donnarumma, Rugani and Romagnoli have played a bit in friendlies, but that's about it, maybe just a few new full-backs, but only out of desperation as Florenzi was injured and we didn't have many decent players in that position); so unfortunately, yes, this will probably go down as our worst ever Italy team as we didn't qualify, but not because it's the players' fault (and certainly no blame should be put on players like Buffon, Chiellini, Barzagli, De Rossi, etc. and a few others; which teams do you think were worse in the past? I suppose maybe our 2009 COnfederations Cup and 2010 World Cup squads were pretty bad, but on paper they definitely looked better than this one, the same goes for our Euro 2008 one, which was ageing, and we didn't have a great manager in Donadoni - we should have learned back then that experience is important... – but we still ended up doing ok in the Euros; in the 2014 World Cup the team wasn't even bad, I'm just not sure what happened, as we played really well in the opener and then collapsed against Costa Rica because of some stupid mistakes and maybe some lack of preparation on Prandelli's part, and against Uruguay we also had some decisions go against us...). Still, on paper I don't think it is anywhere as good as any other teams that I can remember from the past, even the ones that didn't look quite as good, but the players only matter so much in football today, as we've seen that many "smaller" sides have surprised people in tournaments and in qualifying by being very organised. Still, this side might not be great, but it's not dreadful either, and we've said there are worse teams who have qualified for the tournament, and as Conte showed, sometimes we have actually played better with an average team than we have with lots of stars in certain tournaments (like in 1998, where we had so many great players, but with a conservative manager like Cesare Maldini in charge we really didn't do much; if we had that team today with a manager like Prandelli then we could've play tiki-taka as well, with players like Baggio, Del Piero, Di Biagio, Chiesa, and Albertini...). Sorry for the long rant; this is just so frustrating as I've never really seen this happen (not qualifying for Euro 1992 was disappointing but I was very young and back then it wasn't quite as big a deal as the European Championships only had eight teams), and I must admit that initially although I was sceptical of Ventura I thought we would find a way to qualify as always, even though you were rightly apprehensive about the stupid group draw with Spain and the strong possibility of having to qualify for the play-offs (and we got a bad draw there as well and obviously we didn't make it in the end). Ugh, it still makes me so angry and it will be so hard to watch the World Cup without Italy in it this summer.

Regarding potential successors, Mancini was good, but since his time with Manchester City he seems to have been inactive aside from a moderately successful spell with Galatassary and a disappointing second spell with Inter; I don't know if he's the best option either to be honest (and the thing about foreign born players is stupid; in this day and age, with globalisation and people living/studying/working abroad, if a player has citizenship and is therefore eligible and willing to play for Italy, then he/she is Italian; it's essentially xenophobic to say otherwise in my opinion) but he can't be worse than Ventura that's for sure. That's a very good point about Ancelotti; now that we might have to start from the bottom he might be given the freedom to do what he wants and work with and develop the players in the way he wants, so that might actually be more enticing to him; hopefully, as he should be our number 1 objective. We've had a bunch of other managers in the past who have been successful but who are now either retiring or basically finished (Capello for example, would've probably been a good coach for Italy at some point, but now I do think he's a bit outdated and maybe he's past it). Now I don't know if Giovinco will get many more opportunities after this to be hoenst; I would like him to play, but it depends who comes in, but as he's 30 and playing in the MLS I'm worried that whoever comes in will want to start anew with the younger players, which is a shame, as I really wanted to see Giovinco play at a World Cup. Yeah, he does go down easily in the MLS, and because he's that star the refs do look out for him a bit, and it has always been his problem that in addition to being very small he is also very weak physically, but at the same time he has played in Europe and Italy and with the national team so I'm sure he could adapt to those situations. Maybe Balo will be given a try depending on the manager is if he keeps playing well. Yeah, we need to do well in the friendlies from now on (I think they've introducing a new league which goes towards a team's ranking instead of friendlies as well, so that will be something else we have to deal with and maybe will make us take friendlies more seriously from now on, even though they can be frustrating as players don't want to injure themselves in those games), but the ranking system is certainly flawed, as we've seen with Spain being put in pot 2 now when they are arguably the best European team right now. Yeah I really hope we can make up for this disappointment by coming back and ending the seaon on a high with Juve, especially in Europe, but it won't be easy and I can't get my hopes up; there aren't always happy endings in football, unfortunately. Oh well, hopefully things will go up from here. Sorry for the all the verbose venting! Best regards, Messirulez (talk) 23:02, 16 November 2017 (UTC)

@Messirulez: Yeah, it's just something so hard for us because you would never think this would happen. Yeah, I remember I was pretty critical about our group with Spain, as were you, but I feel like we did know all along that we would finish in second to Spain, as we did not have convincing wins, and Spain's goal difference was much better than us. That's why I think we lost at such a large margin when we faced them again...Italy already had the mindset that we would come second...and Ventura even said he is surprised how many people were surprised they needed to go to the playoffs. As a coach, that shouldn't be said, even though it may have been apparent it was heading that way. Then we thought that even if we had to go to the playoffs, we would end up making it through like the last time. Even after the unlucky loss in the first leg, I thought we would be able to find one measly goal to at least take it to extra time...it wasn't till the last 10-20 minutes I thought we were doomed and hyperventilating. It's a little creepy that the last time we didn't make it was in 58 when it was held in Sweden, and the last time Sweden made it was 2006 when we won the Cup. It's tough to label the worst team, especially as you said, it's becoming more about how a manager manages the team. I mean in 2012 Euro I don't think we were expecting much either, but we beat Germany and moved on to the final, only to be crushed however. Then again in 2016 we weren't expecting much, but we almost beat Germany for the semis. It seems as we did terribly the past two World Cups, but actually did pretty good in the last two Euros, although of course the World stage is more competitive. But the past two World Cups also had a ton of controversy in 2010 with offside goals and 2014 with the Suarez bite on Chiellini. It's just something that we could never think Italy to not qualify for the WC at all. I mean, it was like we were already qualified...Buffon says he'll retire after the WC, it's not even a question. I even remember perfectly this article from Football Italia saying "The 2017-18 season gets underway on August 20, and will run until May 20, 2018; finishing early to give Italy time to prepare for the world cup." This is something we know now we can't count on, as there is always work that needs to be put in. I wasn't around in 92, but now having gone through this devastating feeling, seriously almost feeling like a family member died, I can imagine what it was like, although only a Euro with 8 teams as you said, so it wouldn't've hurt as bad. I've seen we also didn't make Euro 84 either. You're probably right about Gio, he's probably done, which is unfortunate, but anything can happen. I hope that if things aren't working out for the national team, alternatives are tested well in advance, if that means testing out Gio, Balo, Criscito, Rossi etc again, then that's what we should do to be sure. We can't just stay stagnant in failing tactics month after month. Whoever is picked for CT, I hope they can reform the team and be open to change. Regards, Vaselineeeeeeee^★★★ 04:52, 17 November 2017 (UTC)

Yeah, I remember that we both thought that finishing 1st against Spain always seemed unlikely as we never score anywhere as much as them even when we win against weaker teams, but regarding your point about the mindset that Italy would come in second and Ventura saying that he was surprised how many people were annoyed that they ended up in the playoffs, Caressa raised a good point about that as well, and said that he had a bad feeling that Italy wouldn't qualify under Ventura because he was acting that way and making those feelings known to the players and media, which meant that he wasn't inspiring the confidence in the team needed to qualify and to well in tournaments. Yeah I completely know your feeling; I felt the same way during the match, especially as the game got closer to the end, although I was still always hoping we would somehow score, even in injury time when Buffon went up, although after the first leg I was really worried as I had a bad feeling we wouldn't score as I had seen the same thing happen to Juve against Benfica, or with Italy at the past two World Cups. And yes, afterwards I felt devastated and physically sick Yeah, that is a weird coincidence; to make that even more sinister, the last time Italy didn't qualify for a tournament (Euro 92), it was also held in Sweden, and when we won in 1982 I don't think Sweden qualified either... Yeah, our performances at the Euros have been more positive, and yes it is true that on top of our poor performances we did have some bad referees as well at those two World Cups, and if it hadn't been for them, in spite of how badly we were playing, we would've gone through to the second round. Yeah, I hadn't see that article, but it's true everyone that takes for granted that Italy will be in the World Cup. Yes, obviously, just clarify when I said that, I still hope Gio will be called up, but I just think that he won't be unfortunately, and why not call up those others like Balo and Rossi if they are playing well, especially Criscito, who has been playing well and isn't that old (not sure why Ventura never called up him). Yes, I hope the new CT will be someone good at least who can help bring about a positive change as you said. Caressa brought up an interesting idea: he was saying that CTs shouls be club coaches like in certain other sports, as it wouldn't mean that they would receive ridiculous salaries, and maybe the really good managers would be able to coach a national team even if they found club football more appealing. Not sure how I feel about that but it is an interesting thought. Best regards, Messirulez (talk) 05:17, 18 November 2017 (UTC)

@Messirulez: Yeah. That would be interesting if a CT could also be a club coach, although some people would probably say their whole focus needs to be on one team. But it's not looking that good...Mancini, Alegri and Ancelotti all basically shot down being coach today. And I also saw Tavecchio blamed Ventura for what happened, so he's probably not going anywhere even though Tommasi and the players union want him out. I don't think anyone would want to take the position with Tavecchio there. We want new leadership. Algeri apparently wants to leave the coaches association because of him. I guess they have some time to find a coach since our next game isn't till March. Who would you be going for in the World Cup? For me, as long as Germany or Brazil doesn't win, I'm okay. I think Spain as improved a lot, but it would be nice to see Argentina win I think since they may be underestimated because they just barely qualified, and they do have lots of Italian origin players, as well as a couple Juve players. I'd actually like to see Sweden make it to the knockout stage so it doesn't look like we lost to as bad of a team as some people think hahaha they will have lots of confidence. Iceland again would be something special as they did do pretty good in the Euros too. So I guess we'll just wait and see what happens at this point. Regards, Vaselineeeeeeee^★★★ 16:13, 18 November 2017 (UTC)

Yeah, it's an interesting idea because then maybe it would allow very good coaches to coach the national team but still remain active at club level, and receive a good salary, as I know not everyone likes the fact that you don't coach all that much at international level, although I do understand what you say as well, that it might mean that they aren't completley focussed on the national team and maybe it would be "too much" to do both and follow every player of your national team (although if they mostly play in the league in which you coach then it might be more advantageous to have to study your opponents every week). Yes, I saw that Ancelotti's agent said that Carlo had said no, and I saw that Allegri had said he would like to coach Italy, but not right now...I didn't see Mancini, which is frustrating, although we do have some other good coaches. Maybe they could use an assistant coach for the time being and maybe someone like Spalletti or Sarri could take up the position starting in the summer...we'll see. Montella did well with Fiorentina, getting to the Coppa Italia final and the Europa League semi-finals and just missing out on a Champions League spot for 2–3 seasons, but he hasn't been particularly impressive with Milan, although I don't know if it's entirely his fault. I don't know what he would be like. Di Biagio, although I liked him as a player and midfielders often make the best coaches (and he was a player who could defend, create, and attack), I don't know how good he is as a coach; he's done ok with the under-21 side, but I never thought we looked great and that a lot of our performances were due to the talent we had, although we did manage some good performances under him, and in the 2015 Euros we actually played quite well, we were just unlucky and our players were stupid against Sweden to give away a penaly and then get Sturaro sent off. Yes, I don't think many players are interested in the Italy coaching role with Tavecchio still there, although from what I heard, I got the impression that he might be forced out; hopefully that's the case, even though he doesn't seem to want to resign. Ventura is at fault, but so is Tavecchio; when he appointed him, he literally called him "a master of football"... so stupid. A master of football who only played one season in Europe and who never even did particularly well in the Coppa Italia either... I hope we find someone who is a good coach and a leader who can take control of the dressing room as you said, especially as we will have a lot of inexperienced young players now, without a really experienced captain (I'm guessing Bonucci will be made captain of this team now, although even though he would take charge with Juve, I've always questioned his leadership, and he certainly isn't showing much leadership with Milan...just as long as we don't call up Montolivo again and make him captain...I can't believe he has so many international appearnaces...), as he has the most appearances, and Marchisio is injury prone, although hopefully he can still contribute to qualification and the finals of the next Euros. Yeah, without Italy in the World Cup, I have trouble supporting another team to be honest (even other countries in which I lived, and really enjoyed living, I always struggled to support them if Italy ever went out of a tournament, although I might be somewhat more sympathetic to their campaigns, lol). I think Spain look very strong, and I highly respect them and admire all of the talented, creative, and skilful players they have and the way they play with their attractive brand of attacking football based on passing and possession, but at the same time I've never like their condescending attitude towards Italian football (the same goes for England), and they have gotten the better of us on several occasions recently, so I see them as our rivals and don't really want to see them win it again, lol. Even though they both look very strong and are certainly two of the favourites along with Spain, like you, I wouldn't want Germany or Brazil to win it either as historically they are our strongest rivals and I wouldn't want them extended their number of World Cup titles in comparison to us, and even France, although they are also looking very strong at the moment and I admire their squad and players, I still see them as our rivals as well, so I wouldn't want to see them win it either, lol, (obviously these are all lighthearted rivalries which are only limited to football!). I don't like Cristiano Ronaldo all that much so I probably wouldn't want Portugal to win it, even though they have a talented young team that did well to win the Euros and had a good showing at the last edition of the Confederations Cup (although in qualifying they were a bit inconsistent, even though they ultimately managed to top their group). Probably I wouldn't mind seeing Argentina winning it as they haven't won it (or any title) in quite a while, and as several of their players play in Italy and for Juve as you said, and are of Italian origin, and I also think it would be nice for Messi to win it after all the criticism over his performance at international level (and I like him as a player on top of that), failure in several major international finals with Argentine, and the team's struggles to qualify for this edition of the World Cup, although they really don't look that great at the moment with how they are playing, sort of like us, as they really struggled in qualifying and are very disorganised at both ends, their defence isn't particularly strong, they don't play much in midfield, and their players really seem to feel the pressure of representing their country (there have also been several allegations made towards the Argentine FA regarding corruption), but they have a player like Messi who can save the team with a decisive dribble, goal, or throughball, whereas we don't have a forward/playmaker like him, but when he doesn't play they do look significantly worse (and on top of that Higuain, Aguero, Icardi, Banega, Pastore, and Dybala for some reason don't play as well for their country as they do for their clubs; even Messi and Di Maria, who are probably their nation's best players at the moment not only in terms of their ability but also how they perform, aren't anywhere as good for their country as they are at club level), so I don't know if they can realistically win it, although you never know in football, especially as teams can also get a good draw at times. Yeah, I hope Sweden have a decent showing in the World Cup as well after knocking us out! lol; hopefully they make the knockout stages, or even the quarter-finals would be great...although they are without an absolute star like Ibra, I do think that in his absence they play more as a team, and certainly their talented under-21 sides have performed well in the past few editions of the tournament, so I'm quite certain that this squad is actually quite decent, especially as they had a tough qualifying group and did quite well, even though admittedly they didn't look great against us, but I suppose they did what they had to progress and were smart with how they played and defended, and we weren't an easy opponent either. Although it's always amazing to see smaller teams do well, unfortuantely I personally don't see many of the underdogs like Iceland progressing too far in the World Cup (although I could be proven wrong, especially as several stronger sides, like Italy, Chile, the Netherlands, didn't qualify – even some tough sides like USA and New Zealand – and it would be nice to be proven wrong!), as I think the World Cup is more competitive than Euros, and I felt that unlike in thea psat like the expansion of the European Championship might have favoured "weaker" teams (although Greece still managed to win it in 2004; even Denmark was a surprise, but with only 8 teams I feel like there were more surprises back then), but at the same time Iceland put in some good performances against some strong sides, so you never know! I hope they make it to the knockour round at least. It's nice to see Peru in the tournament after such a long time as well, especially as they played well in qualifying (if we had qualified, I would've taken it as a good omen, as I don't think they've been in the World Cup since 1982, but unfortuantely we aren't in the tournamnet). I heard that Barzagli and Buffon are being rested this weekend; hopefully Juve can came back with a good win and get some good results in the Champions League now. Best regards, Messirulez (talk) 17:17, 18 November 2017 (UTC)

@Messirulez: Yeah, hopefully Tavecchio gets pushed out, it would be ridiculous to have something like this happen and keep the president who appointed such a "maestro" lol. I'm the same way when it comes to these things too...I find it hard to support anyone else if my team is out. It's still the biggest competition in the world, so I'll still watch a couple games here and there if I can, but not like the investment I'd've put in if Italy were there. Yeah, it's for the same reason I wouldn't want Brazil or Germany; they've got too many titles hahah. With Sweden, they did beat Netherlands and I think France during qualifying so they seem to be doing better without Ibra somehow, so depending on what group they're going to be stuck in, they could probably make it to the quarters. I don't think Portugal has it in them, they won by luck pretty much last year going through the easier side of the tree to make it to the finals. It's funny how Italy actually won the group and had to go through the harder side of the tree with Spain then Germany then would've been France. I can't help but wonder what would've happened if we didn't win Albania and came in the second pot. If we drew anyone but Croatia, we probably would've had a good running as well. But it seemed like the only way we could get that fool Ventura out was by the most drastic measure of not qualifying! I've heard that the U.S. might organize a mini tournament just before the World Cup with some of the stronger teams that didn't make it, that could be interesting to give Italy a little boost hopefully. Yeah, hopefully Buffon can come back rested, and overtake Maldini for most Serie A appearances! Regards, Vaselineeeeeeee^★★★ 17:49, 18 November 2017 (UTC)

@Messirulez: Meno male, Tavecchio's gone! Hopefully a total reform occurs. It might take a while to get a new coach since almost everyone is under contract right now, but hopefully they appoint a decent president as well... Regards, Vaselineeeeeeee^★★★ 13:17, 20 November 2017 (UTC)

Yeah; I agree. I hope we can get a more driven, energetic and competent president, and who is also politically correct, with new and good ideas, and hopefully we'll get a good new coach at the end of this season. Yeah, I'll still watch the World Cup, but I suppose it will be like the way I watched it when Italy went out early, with a feeling of bitterness, probably even more so as we didn't actually qualify this time around. Yeah, I don't know if Ibra will want one last World Cup; it would always be fun to see him play, but I don't know if it's fair on the rest of the team who qualified without him and seem to play better as there isn't one star. Yeah, I know; the draws at Euro 2016 were weird, and even at the last World Cup Argentina had the more favourable draw (mainly in the group stage and the round of 16, as they still had to face Belgium and the Netherlands in the knock-out stage), which goes to show that there's also a certain degree of luck, and we also had a decent draw at the 2006 World Cup. Yeah, I heard about that mini tournament, but personally I really don't like that idea... I know there are actually several decent teams that didn't make it, but no one would really take it seriously (especially Italy, who don't even take friendlies seriously, lol), as none of the those teams qualified for the World Cup, and I feel like it would almost be laughable to do that, so I don't know if it would help much; maybe it would give our younger players a chance to get some experience and prove something though, who knows. Yeah, Buffon and Barza were rested this weekend, so hopefully they will be back and in good shape for the Champions League this week; I really hope we can come out with a draw at least and I really hope we go through in the end. Shame to lose at the weekend; we looked out of it and were being destroyed at one point, although we weren't playing a lot of our starters, but at least we did well to come back in injury time (great goal by Dybala), although it was too little too late, but then again it's still early in the season. Best regards, Messirulez (talk) 15:26, 20 November 2017 (UTC)

@Messirulez: Yeah, it was a shame to lose to Sampdoria, putting us a few points behind now, but the game next week against Napoli will be crucial to win I think. I wasn't able to watch the Juve-Barca match yesterday, but apparently it was a good tactical match said Allegri. We still need to win in Greece, and hopefully Lisbon don't get the win, in order to move on. The FIFA rankings came out today, with Italy actually going up a spot to 14, how is that even possible?! It seems if you lose friendlies, you plummet, but you lose real matches, you go up LOL. Did you also see Peru may be forced out of the World Cup?? Some law that could be passed that would put their FA under state control which isn't allowed in FIFA, could give their spot to Italy. When I read that I got a little too excited, as it is probably improbable. I was wondering why they wouldn't consider Chile even if this did happen, as they are another South American team, but maybe it's because Italy at least made the playoffs where Chile didn't even. Would be unfair to the Peruvian players and fans, but if that's the rule, that's the rule. We probably wouldn't be respected coming into the tournament like that, but at this point, I'm still guiltily hoping this happens hahaha Regards, Vaselineeeeeeee^★★★ 15:17, 23 November 2017 (UTC)

Yeah; we were playing pretty poorly against Samp – I guess the failed World Cup qualification must've taken a toll on several players – but at least we managed to pick it up and score two in injury time (great goal by Dybala), although it was way too late. Yeah... I suppose it's good we got a draw against Barca, as they are always a strong side, and tactically we were organised and did conceded any goals, but at the same time, Messi wasn't even starting, they no longer have Neymar, Suarez hasn't been at his best, and Iniesta is getting older now, so I wish we had pushed a bit more, as it took us a long time to even register a shot on target, although we were unlucky not to score on a few occasions due to poor finishing; unfortuantely Olympiakos lost badly, which isn't good for goal differential, although hopefully we can get a win in Greece (especially as they have lost every other game, but it still won't be easy, as they will probably still be playing for pride – especially against a side like us, who are renowned, but who, at the same time, tend to underestimate their opponents and give the very minimum to qualify – even though they can't qualify for the Europa League. I thought Dybala played quite well against Barca, with his passing and dribbling and by making himself available; he made a nice run at the end of the first half but unfortunately he shot high. At the end of the game he took an amazing shot from outside the area which was curling into the bottom corner (it would've been almost a complete photocopy of his second goal against Barcelona in the Champions League quarter-finals, funnily enough), but Ter Stegen made a very good save. What!? Our FIFA ranking has actually gone up after we lost and drew in our playoff matches and didn't qualify!? That makes no sense! I know there is a formula behind this, but it makes no sense to me (I feel like points should also be awarded based on how you perform in a tournament, or if you qualify for a tournament)! I saw that Peru might be excluded, which is ridiculous and sad for them if that does happen; I do get why that regulation exists, so I understand the situation, but it still seems unfair as it ends up penalising the players and the fans. I saw that they might give it to Italy (although somehow I don't think that well end up happening so I'm not going to get my hopes up, especially as I think there is a quota for European teams), I think as we were the highest ranked team in the playoffs in terms of our results that didn't qualify for the tournament, but I would've also thought that New Zealand – whom they defeated in the playoffs – or a South American team would get their spot (like Chile, as you said, especially as I think they are the highest ranked team that didn't qualify). It would be very unfair to them, and I'm sure people would root against even more if we did qualify in that manner (although to be fair Denmark didn't qualify for Euro 1992, but they took Yugoslavia's spot after they were banned, and then they ended up winning the tournament; in hindsight I wish these regulations had applied back then and that Italy would've been included that time as maybe we would've won that tournamnet with the players we had, and that way Baggio could've actually played in a European Championship...not that I would've been old enough to remember watching that anyway!)... Obviously I would somehow love to see us at the World Cup next summer, although I don't know if I could handle making the tournament in that manner, after how poorly we did under Ventura and after having to deal with the shocking blow of not qualifying for some time, and seeing all our more experienced players announcing their retirement, I think it would be a bit ridiculous for everyone to reverse their decisions, although obviously I would love to see Gigi play the World Cup, and at least Ventura and Tavecchio are out (I really hope that they wouldn't get called back should we get that spot); and yes, it seems really unfair to Peru, the players and their fans, after they managed to qualify for the first time since 1982 in a legitimate manner, so it's an historic occasion for them and this regulation, so I would feel guilty if we took their spot in that manner (I really don't think that will happen, although, I'm also embarrassed to admit that part of me hopes we will somehow be included; if only it were another team fom whom I would feel less sympathetic, lol). Best, Messirulez (talk) 22:52, 24 November 2017 (UTC)

I bet you must be pretty happy about TFC winning the title at home in a rematch after last season's disappointment! I thought Toronto played really well and hit form at the perfect time! And even though Toronto controlld the game and dominated in terms of possession and the chances they produced, Seattle did well, too, were tough to break down, and didn't concede too much, and also had some opportunities themselves, so it wasn't an easy game by any means. Frei was on fire once gain, making a few really good stops on shots which seemed to be going right into the bottom corner. Shame Giovinco couldn't get a goal or win the MLS MVP Award (although I think there were two debateable penalty calls which Toronto could have had), but I thought he had a good game overall with some nice moves to get past his opponents, some good passing, and tested Frei a few times, even though it seemed like he couldn't quite get a clean chance (he had a good chance in the first half when his chip was deflected barely wide, although I couldn't tell if his shot was going in or not because the trajectory looked like it wasn't from the replay, but he could have put some spin on it, and it was deflected before I could tell. I thought that the assist for Altidore's goal was great (and a really nice finish by Jozy to chip it over the keeper with his left foot from that angle after being pushed out wide!) and the throughball to Cooper was also beautiful; nice feint by Cooper to get past Frei as well, and he was unfortunate not to score and hit the post right on (he's not a striker, I guess!), but I was glad Vazquez was ready to tap in the rebound, and it was nice for him to cap off a great season with a goal (he worked very hard and pressed a lot all over the pitch the whole game in addition to dictating play)! Bradley was running all night and played well, and Osorio played well, too, after a poor performnace in the conference final, and I think Vanney made a good decision to switch to a 4–4–2 diamond and play Delgado in midfield as well, to have an extra man as an additional option whenever Bradley or Vazquez dropped deep to receive the ball and start things up again, and he was also an added presence off the ball in midfield as he was there to run and help put pressure on his opponents to win back the ball. The defence were pretty solid as well, and Bono has grown a lot this season and held on to the ball in came out to sweep up the ball in difficult situations when put under pressure. Great to see TFC complete the treble (first MLS team ever; I didn't know that!) and become the first Canadian team to win the MLS Cup, especially given their passionate fanbase and Toronto's poor luck in sporting competitions for quite some time; hopefully this will help Canadian soccer develop and bring greater exposure to and interest in the MLS and Soccer more broadly in Canada, and younger kids might get excited and want to start kicking a football instead trying to emulate Giovinco etc. now that they've finally won the title after all these years, and after struggling for a good part of the past decade! Hopefully they can finally qualify for the World Cup next time around! I really hope Giovinco will get a call-up to the national team after this, and I really hope he can help TFC win the CONCACAF Champions League now as well (it would be insane if Juve somehow won the Champions League, to see them matchup in the FIFA Club World Cup, but I shouldn't get ahead of myself as it won't be easy for either side to do so; maybe TFC have a better chance of going far in their Champions League though!). Juve came out with a draw with Inter when they could've probably done more, but there were several absences, so for now it's fine. Napoli didn't win either which is good. Hopefully we get a good Champions League draw and can improve in Serie A now. Best regards, Messirulez (talk) 22:35, 10 December 2017 (UTC)

@Messirulez: Hell yeahhh!! That was a sick game, although I was beginning to get frustrated with how good Frei was doing as I didn't want this to turn out like last year! Last year Seattle didn't even manage a shot, can't recall one on Saturday, but maybe they did get one, but we definitely had more shots than last year. I think they said like 13 or 14 in the first half was tied for the record for most shots in a cup final half. It was only a matter of time though I guess till we broke the deadlock. It was Frei vs TFC! Yes, Giovinco picked it up this game, he played really well, being involved in both goals like you said, but yeah, unfortunate he couldn't get one, although yeah, he had a pretty good chance but it went just wide. Osorio had a good chance too. The way we came out and dominated was amazing, then came back out after the half and kept the momentum going. It was finally amazing to feel some joy for winning a cup, as we've been snubbed a few times with Juve and the Italy WC woes, it was good to feel this and bring one home for this city after so many years. It was great to see how pumped they were, and the fans, when lifting the cup. And Gio's kid banging the drum infront of the ultras hahaha. Gio's still got a few years, but I think he's really enjoying it here, hopefully he retires here with his family, like Pirlo is doing in NYC I believe. TFC just performed like a well oiled machine this year getting Vazquez in mid, with the likes of Bradley who played really good this game, Gio and Altidore. Yes, I hope this can hype of TFC even more than they have in the last two or three years, and bring attention to this city and Canada. And the treble, yes, first ones! There will be a parade downtown today. Gio, Altidore, Bradely, Vazquez, Moor and Vanney were all honoured in a ceremony on the ice just before the Leafs game yesterday, which was so good to see respect between sports, and definitely got exposure through that as well. But yes, hopefully they can carry this into their CL as well!

Yeah the Derby d'Italia was unfortunate in that we couldn't win at home, even though I thought we had some pretty good chances to win, Mandzukic missed a couple of headers and Asamoah's strike was great too. Defensively we played well, I think it was Chiellini who made a really nice cut out with a slide. I don't know why they didn't start Dybala though, and hopefully Buffon gets fit fast if he wants to break the Serie A app record, although he should probably be back next game. It was also good Napoli and Roma drew, now we're only one and two points behind Napoli, Inter, but still work to go. I think we got a pretty decent CL draw with Tottenham, they're only in 6th place in the league, but they've done well in their CL group, and at least we didn't get PSG like Real Madrid did haahahha. We should be able to get through. Regards and Merry Christmas and Happy New Year! Vaselineeeeeeee^★★★ 15:12, 11 December 2017 (UTC)

Yeah, I know, it must have been nice to see TFC win it after last year and after all the frustratings with Juve and Italy this year! Yeah, Toronto played well this season and Vazquez was definitely the missing link; Bradley was great in the final, running all over the pitch to press opponents, win back the ball, and then would often drop back to receive it to start things up, and he was leading the team with his warrior-like presence and determination on the pitch, and Altidore has scored some important goals and is fun to watch with how pumped up he gets for games, especially when players try to challenge him and he just completely overpowers them physically! It must be great for the city and it's nice that other sports teams have congratulated them on their victory! Yes, the first half was frustrating because it seemed like at 0–0 it might become a repeat of the previous season thanks to Frei, although Toronto were even more dominant this year in the first half, so in the end it was only a matter of time before one went in, I guess, and yes, they really kept going at it in the second half and that paid off in the end! Yeah, it wasn't Seba's best match and couldn't produce a really good shot, but he played well overall and his passes on the goals were great and he made some other nice moves and passes. Yeah, Osorio and Vazquez both had very good chances which were well stopped by Frei even though their shots were headed into the bottom corner. Yeah, to be honest, I think Giovinco will probably stay in Toronto; he's 30 now, so he won't have too many more years in his physical prime, so I don't think he will move back to Europe (after all, he's a superstar in the MLS, basically the Messi of the league, the quality of life in Toronto is excellent, and on top of that he's playing well and scoring a lot, admired by the fans, and is being paid extremely well, too) although he can still do well in the MLS well into his 30s with his technical skills, vision, passing ability, and accuracy from free kicks, although he might just have to operate in a deeper playmaking role as he loses his pace and agility (although he already isn't as quick as he was a couple of years ago and is still playing well); maybe he can bulk up a little bit to compensate. He says he really enjoys living in the city at the moment, and that the atmosphere at the games is great but that the fans are much more respectful than in Italy, both at the stadium, and whenever he's out in the city, as they aren't as invasive of his personal space. Once his kid starts school there and really feels at home there, then that's something he would also have to take into consideration if he ever decided to move, as it isn't easy for a family to do that. Yeah, I heard that Dybala wasn't 100% for the Inter game, which is why he came on later, but yes, thankfully Napoli and Roma drew. We got a decent draw in CL, so hopefully we can beat Spurs, but it definitely won't be easy. They have a good team, and Kane has been scoring a lot, so we really need to play well and be prepared, organised defensively, and approach the match with the right mentality, not underestimating Tottenham, but at hte same time playing with the confidence that we have been and can still be a top team. Yeah, some of the draws are crazy, considering some top placed teams got bad draws... An early Merry Christmas and Happy new Year to you as well! Best regards, Messirulez (talk) 00:21, 14 December 2017 (UTC)

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