User talk:Trappist the monk/Archive 12

Two requests for citations

I have a pair of requests for you. One is probably easier than the other, but I think I could maybe do the easier if the harder was removed:

1. Move Category:CS1 maint: display-authors and other display-X friends to an error.
2. Make the error and maintenance systems equivalent save for the fact that one item is an error and one is a maintenance item.

I trip up really hard every time I want to get maintenance items turned into errors, and it's making it hard to parse how to make the necessary code modification for display-X (for my inexperienced self :).

As for your recent comment about editors and authors, I'm about halfway through processing Category:CS1 maint: uses editors parameter (slow going for my mostly manual self). Sometime this year that might be done and I think we could deprecate it at that time accordingly (+ factoring the maintenance message to emit only for authors). The full group might need to discuss how to deal with |authors= though since that maintenance category has many more pages that will take years to clear if I'm going it alone or only mostly-manual-AWBing it. (I'll wait to see if anyone else comments on that on the one page.) --Izno (talk) 20:24, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

Oughtn't these be discussed at WT:CS1? Is there some reason to have a semi-secret conversation about them here?

—Trappist the monk (talk) 10:54, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

Because it's a request for implementation that I think will be uncontroversial. Item 2 will only matter to people who look at the source and item 1 I had planned to tackle and then leave a comment there. --Izno (talk) 12:23, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

Starter kit for smaller wikis

Hello, and greetings! As part of a Starter kit project for smaller wikis, there is a work-in-progress guide around Templates & Modules here: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Small_wiki_toolkits/Starter_kit/Templates_and_Modules.

I am reaching out to you with a few questions as I recently learned from a colleague you are an expert in this area :-)

• I would love to know your suggestions on the Templates currently on the list, which should not be there, and those that are not there and should be there.
• Is there anything like a note or reminder related to these templates that you would like to add in the "Template description" column?
• What do you think about the overall document? Is it making sense from a small wiki contributor perspective?

Looking forward to your input! Srishti (talk) 01:38, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

I think that your colleague is misinformed. I know nothing about small wikis or about the small wiki starter kit – this discussion is my introduction to the topic.

• Doesn't the complement of templates needed by any particular wiki depend upon the purpose(s) of that wiki? The list of templates may be just right for one small wiki and wholly inadequate for another.
• The list seems to be en.wiki-centric. No doubt, there are variants of those templates. For example, at en.wiki, Template:Cite web uses the Module:Citation/CS1 suite (eight modules and a style sheet); at fr.wiki, Template:Cite web is a redirect to fr:Modèle:Lien web which uses the fr:Module:Biblio suite (5 modules, I think). The purpose is the same; the execution and rendering is entirely different. Also, there are language specific variants: sq:Moduli:Citation/CS1 has been adapted (in whole or in part) from the en.wiki modules for use on Albanian-language wikis.
• Because I know nothing about small wikis, I cannot say if the document is helpful. I will say, that the color scheme in File:Wikitemplates_Logo.svg is likely misleading. The different colors for the braces seem to indicate that they are independent of each other when in fact, they most certainly are not. Yeah, I know, bike shedding ...

—Trappist the monk (talk) 12:01, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

Thank you for sharing your thoughts and apologies for my late response!

First, I reached out to you as I learned that you might have insights to share on the "Templates and Modules" topic and not "Smaller wikis" :)

The idea is to keep the list as such that it works for any wiki. I agree with your point about the guide around templates and modules currently being English Wikipedia centric. I have started to look into this more; for example, for Wikidata-powered infoboxes, we now link the ones on Catalan wiki. I plan to reach out to folks from other language wikis to know if they use a template linked from the guide, which is easier to use than the English version. Srishti (talk) 01:42, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

Template:Cite NIE

Hey, I wound up at Template:Cite NIE after noticing an apparent error on an article ("Missing or empty |title=") I noticed you're the last editor to edit the template so I was wondering if you could point me in the right direction. Assuming this is an error, how would one go about fixing it? Thanks. Marquardtika (talk) 20:30, 26 June 2020 (UTC)

If we are talking about Lauder William Jones, then the error message is valid. On that page, {{NIE}} is missing its article title. If we are talking about the Jones article, I'm skeptical that that article has any content from the 1905 edition of New International Encyclopedia. If it does, it isn't from an article about Jones. Were there such an article it would appear at https://archive.org/details/newinternational11gilm/page/282/mode/2up; it doesn't.

The editor who created the Jones article also created three other articles, all ostensibly including text from NIE 1905. I'm not believing that.

Jones is listed in the 1930 supplement so to properly cite that entry in the NIE:

{{NIE |title=Jones, Lauder William |url=https://archive.org/details/newinternational008290mbp/page/n889/mode/2up |year=1930 |edition=Supplement |page=850}}

 This article incorporates text from a publication now in the public domain: Wade, Herbert Tredwell, ed. (1930). "Jones, Lauder William". New International Encyclopedia (Supplement ed.). New York: Dodd, Mead. p. 850.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 22:18, 26 June 2020 (UTC)

CS1/2 deployment

Hi Trappist,

I have been asked by User:Biosthmors why the auto-linking changes proposed in the RFC have not been deployed yet, so I am turning to you for your assessment of how soon we can hope this to be deployed.

Cheers − Pintoch (talk) 07:10, 28 June 2020 (UTC)

Typically every two to three months depending on how much change has accumulated. I've been thinking about early July which is why I restarted the unfinished discussion: Help talk:Citation Style 1 § Needs exception for unusual-format dates (2).

—Trappist the monk (talk) 10:32, 28 June 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for the update. Best wishes. Biosthmors (talk) 15:59, 28 June 2020 (UTC)

Monkbot

Hello Trappist the monk, why hasn't Monkbot run in a month? Just curious. ◊PRAHLAD^balaji (M•T•A•C) This message was left at 00:10, 3 July 2020 (UTC)

Why do you want to know? Is something amiss?

—Trappist the monk (talk) 00:24, 3 July 2020 (UTC)

No, just seen Monkbot around a lot, so I was just curious. Nothing's amiss or anything :) ◊PRAHLAD^balaji (M•T•A•C) This message was left at 00:44, 3 July 2020 (UTC)

cite journal

Utterly confused since all the major changes came into cite templates over the last 18 months. Nothing seems to work properly, things keep being refined, more and more parameters are required, it seems to be run by a clique and the documentation makes little sense to me. So, simple question: how do I fix the error thrown by the subscription argument of

I tried the pairing of article-url and article-access-url (or whatever it was said to be on the docs page, I've already forgotten).

References

Thanks. - Sitush (talk) 14:27, 3 July 2020 (UTC)

Remove |subscription=yes.

{{cite journal |first1=Velchuru Narayana |last1=Rao |first2=Sanjay |last2=Subrahmanyam |authorlink2=Sanjay Subrahmanyam |title=Notes on Political Thought in Medieval and Early Modern South India |journal=Modern Asian Studies |date=January 2009 |volume=43 |issue=1 |page=204 |jstor=20488076 |doi=10.1017/s0026749x07003368}}

Rao, Velchuru Narayana; Subrahmanyam, Sanjay (January 2009). "Notes on Political Thought in Medieval and Early Modern South India". Modern Asian Studies. 43 (1): 204. doi:10.1017/s0026749x07003368. JSTOR 20488076.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 14:34, 3 July 2020 (UTC)

Ah, so we don't show that it is restricted access at all now? Seems odd but it reduces clutter. - Sitush (talk) 14:51, 3 July 2020 (UTC)

|url= links |title=. A linked title is presumed to be free-to-read. When a linked title is not free-to-read, we highlight that with |url-access=subscription. Conversely, named identifiers are presumed to lie behind a paywall or registration barrier. When a named identifier is free-to-read, we mark it with |doi-access=free, |jstor-access=free, or other appropriate |<identifier>-access=free. Not all named identifiers have this facility because some named identifiers are never free-to-read.

If we added access icons () to every named identifier in every template, there would be a sea-of-red in article references sections. That would be needless clutter.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 15:07, 3 July 2020 (UTC)

Ah, got it. Thanks for the explanation. There will be a lot of frustrated readers clicking on doi and jstor links because, like me, they don't realise this presumption exists. - Sitush (talk) 15:42, 3 July 2020 (UTC)

Nomination for merging of Module:ISO 639

Module:ISO 639 has been nominated for merging with Module:ISO 639 name. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the module's entry on the Templates for discussion page. Thank you. Gonnym (talk) 11:15, 6 July 2020 (UTC)

Query

Thanks for all the fixes, but why remove the {open access} icons? [1] EEng 22:12, 6 July 2020 (UTC)

Wait, I see now in an earlier thread on this page, A linked title is presumed to be free-to-read. That's reasonable, but where is that assumption stated? EEng 22:14, 6 July 2020 (UTC)

Help:Citation Style 1 § Access level of url-holding parameters; also echoed in the documentation of the various cs1|2 templates. This arises from design decisions (described above) taken during the access icons rfc:

Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals)/Archive 135 § Access locks: Visual Design RFC

There have been recent discussions circumnavigating that presumption; see at:

User talk:Citation bot § June 2020

Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals)/Archive 167 § Auto-linking titles in citations of works with free-to-read DOIs

{{open access}} has a particular meaning that suggests re-usability. That is something that the re-user and the publisher must negotiate; en.wiki has no part to play in that so we should not claim, for example, that Slate's article "Phineas Gage, Neuroscience's Most Famous Patient" can be re-used by anyone without they first make arrangements with The Slate Group who has this at the bottom of the article:

All contents © 2020 The Slate Group LLC. All rights reserved.

Did I answer the questions?

—Trappist the monk (talk) 23:10, 6 July 2020 (UTC)

OK, see [2], and now I realize that {free access} is what I meant. But I'm still confused, so just tell me the bottom line: should I put {free access} in where it applies, or is free access (as of now) the default assumption? EEng 00:53, 7 July 2020 (UTC)

Free-to-read is the default case for any cs1|2 template title/url pair (|title=/|url=, |chapter=/|chapter-url=, etc). When cs1|2 is the citation style chosen for the article, {{free access}} is not appropriate.

A free-form citation that, for example, uses {{doi}} (and similar) would use {{free access}} when {{doi}} links to a free-to-read copy of the source.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 11:29, 7 July 2020 (UTC)

Including the non-CS1 category on the CS1 category

Hello, regarding these three reversions, I think that it's useful to include the CS1 category in the main category. The main reason why I added them there is that Category:Pages with ISBN errors already contains Category:CS1 errors: ISBN and has for several years. This category inclusion has been really helpful to me for noticing new additions to the other category; I only need to check Category:Pages with ISBN errors and can notice when the other number goes up.

On the other hand, when I previously cleared out Category:Pages with ISSN errors, I didn't notice that Category:CS1 errors: ISSN existed. Yes, it's included in the see also list, but I missed it then, and that doesn't give a page count. So, I added the link, to match the ISBN page I've been using. I then checked for others, and added the link on the ISMN page, and linked Category:CS1 errors: SBN to the ISBN page (since there isn't a separate SBN category, and SBNs are effectively just ISBNs and can be fixed the same way in any case).

Yes, the categories are populated by different templates (and thus are different categories), but that doesn't change that they represent the exact same kind of error in the page. (cc to Jonesey95). --Pokechu22 (talk) 22:09, 7 July 2020 (UTC)

The 'Pages with ... errors' cats already link to the cs1 variants at §See also.

If you want a count of articles in the cs1 cats, change the template to:

{{clc|CS1 errors: ISSN}} → Category:CS1 errors: ISSN (9)

I think that I agree with Editor Jonesey95; including the cs1 cats into a category populated by unrelated templates is not the correct thing to do. We got round that by using the links at §See also.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 22:35, 7 July 2020 (UTC)

Wouldn't a template run into issues with the page cache? Or does the PAGESINCATEGORY magic word avoid caching issues somehow? --Pokechu22 (talk) 22:52, 7 July 2020 (UTC)

If you are expecting reliable and accurate category page counts, I think that you will be disappointed. For example, as I write this, Category:CS1 errors reports that Category:CS1 errors: invisible characters holds 29 pages. Looking inside Category:CS1 errors: invisible characters shows that the category really holds 18 pages. {{clc|CS1 errors: invisible characters}} is just as wrong as Category:CS1 errors:

Category:CS1 errors: invisible characters (5)

—Trappist the monk (talk) 23:12, 7 July 2020 (UTC)

I agree that categories automatically assigned by templates should not have subcategories that are unrelated to those templates. A "See also" section works great. As for category counts, it's a bug that has been around forever. They work somewhat. (By the way, if you are looking for other places to track ISBN errors, Wikipedia:WikiProject Check Wikipedia/ISBN errors always has some that do not appear in any categories, because it uses a different method to check ISBNs for validity. It doesn't update automatically like categories do, but it is updated a couple of times per month by a bot, and I sometimes update it with a script.) – Jonesey95 (talk) 23:16, 7 July 2020 (UTC)

Date mismatch

There seems to be a new error mseeage flagging "date mismatch", example refs 4 and 6 at Concerns_and_controversies_at_the_2014_Winter_Olympics. Why? -- Ohc ^¡digame! 07:57, 10 July 2020 (UTC)

Not very new. That message has been around since at least October 2018.

This is the template from ref 4:

{{Webarchive|url=https://web.archive.org/web/20140311132451/http://www.amnesty.org/en/for-media/press-releases/amnesty-international-directors-deliver-global-petition-russian-president-a |date=1 March 2014}}

You can see that the date portion of the timestamp in |url= is different from the date in |date= (format differences are ignored). When these dates don't match, the template emits the error message. The fix is to make the dates match or to delete |date= (if ymd date format is acceptable)

—Trappist the monk (talk) 10:23, 10 July 2020 (UTC)

So it's triggered by an error in the {{Webarchive}} template... Why does the error need fixing when Mediawiki overrides the erroneous date – in fact, why does it need a date parameter at all? -- Ohc ^¡digame! 18:45, 10 July 2020 (UTC)

I don't know what you mean by Mediawiki overrides the erroneous date. It would surprise me to learn that MediaWiki has anything to do with how a template renders a date. Explain what you mean? Give an example of MediaWiki overriding a date from this template?

The |date= parameter is in this template so that editors may control the rendering of the date format if they they want the rendered date to be in a format other than ymd. The template emits the error message when the date in the chosen format does not match the date in the archive timestamp.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 19:14, 10 July 2020 (UTC)

And I see that, unlike the {{citation}} templates, it doesn't look to the {{use dmy dates}} for date formats. Would it not be an idea to set it so that it does? -- Ohc ^¡digame! 18:52, 10 July 2020 (UTC)

Before Lua, a) it was not trivial to auto-extract the date from the archive, much less the whole page for the format and b) there are some archives that have no observable timestamp in them. --Izno (talk) 18:58, 10 July 2020 (UTC)

If you wish to discuss auto-date-formatting in this template, you might want to revive Template talk:Webarchive § webarchive use of {{use dmy dates}}, etc..

—Trappist the monk (talk) 19:14, 10 July 2020 (UTC)

Thanks to you both. -- Ohc ^¡digame! 14:41, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

Language names

Hi, I've been experimenting for the pending IPA template overhaul. What is the best way to get the canonical language code used in lang-xx (e.g. "fa") from a non-canonical code (e.g. "fas")? Using Module:Lang's name_from_tag and then tag_from_name is one way, but definitely doesn't seem elegant (and also returns "fas" from "Persian", which I don't get why).

Also, is there a way to suppress the error in _name_from_tag (i.e. make it return nil or false in case of an error)? I could pass the string to _is_ietf_tag first and then invoke _name_from_tag, but that seems like duplication of effort. Nardog (talk) 15:16, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

You have identified a bug in Module:Lang/name_to_tag. Module:Language/name/data has the form:

['<lang-code>'] = {'<lang-name>'}

Module:Lang/name_to_tag flips that around to:

['<lang-name>'] = '<lang-code>'

Because Module:Language/name/data has:

["fa"] = {"Persian"} – from Module:Language/data/iana languages

and

["fas"] = {"Persian"} – from Module:Language/data/ISO_639-3

flipped round we get:

['Persian'] = 'fa'

['Persian'] = 'fas'

The bug is that which ever one of these gets written last into the tables created by Module:Lang/name_to_tag wins. This suggests that ISO 639-1 codes need to be prioritized somehow. I'll think about how to do that.

In the meantime, if all you need are names from ISO 639 language codes, there is Module:ISO 639 name:

{{#invoke:ISO 639 name|iso_639_name_to_code|Persian}} → fa

{{#invoke:ISO 639 name|iso_639_name|fa}} →

Yeah, _is_ietf_tag() may be a duplication of effort but it doesn't cost enough to worry about. Alternately, you can test the value returned from _name_from_tag() and _tag_from_name(). If the returned value begins with <span you know that something is wrong.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 16:29, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for the prompt reply. Since we're trying to make {{IPA|xx|...}} work, I want to make sure it returns the same language as {{lang|xx|...}} does. But I also don't want to store IPA-specific data twice, as in ["en"] = { key = "Help:IPA/English" }, ["eng"] = { key = "Help:IPA/English" }; I just want to write ["en"] = { key = "Help:IPA/English" } and have {{IPA|eng|...}} work the same way as {{IPA|en|...}}.

When I write {{lang|eng|...}}, it returns <span lang="en"..., not <span lang="eng".... Where is {{lang}} getting en from? Nardog (talk) 16:54, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

ISO 639-1 codes and names are taken from Module:Language/data/iana languages. eng is ISO 639-3 so the name for that comes from Module:Language/data/ISO_639-3. At rendering, Module:lang promotes ISO 639-3 codes to ISO 639-1 codes using the map at Module:Lang/ISO 639 synonyms.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 17:03, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

Bug fixed:

{{#invoke:lang|name_from_tag|fa}} → Persian

{{#invoke:lang|name_from_tag|fas}} → Persian

{{#invoke:lang|tag_from_name|Persian}} → fa

—Trappist the monk (talk) 17:03, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

Weirdness

I already blocked the user, but just in case this is some sort of ongoing thing I thought you should be made aware of this [3]. Beeblebrox (talk) 20:37, 12 July 2020 (UTC)

Yep, weirdness. If there is some sort of ongoing thing, it is on the part of that user. Thanks for the notification.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 20:45, 12 July 2020 (UTC)

Submission

Please help me to submit these and review Draft:Sarki Auwalu and Draft:Professor Charles Egbu Sadeeqzaria (talk) 04:41, 19 July 2020 (UTC)

Scratching an itch

You are too cool. Sorry for being so lazy that I made you do a fun programming project. – Jonesey95 (talk) 22:41, 21 July 2020 (UTC)

Re: my apologies

I know I already said this in one of my responses on the help desk, if you've read those first, but I have OCD and Asperger's syndrome, so I tend to feel guilty for a lot of possible offenses, and apologize a lot for fear that it'll weigh on my conscious. I don't know whether to apologize again here or not. It's also hypocritical of me not to refrain from doing that here, since I just got off the phone with a woman that I said some things I regretted to, and I haven't called her back to apologize for fear of starting an OCD ritual.--Thylacine24 (talk) 20:24, 24 July 2020 (UTC)

Don't you think that [apologizing] a lot for fear that it'll weigh on [your] conscious will desensitize those to whom you apologize a lot? Don't you think that when you really need to apologize, need to seek forgiveness, need to make amends, they will not hear your apology for what it is? They will have become so accustomed to ignoring the continuing stream of lesser apologies that they will ignore your most heartfelt apology when you and they need it most.

In real life this is important; among a bunch of anonymous somebodies on the internet, meh, not so much. So, because I am an anonymous somebody on the internet, it is highly unlikely that you need to apologize to me. In fact, I give you permission to forgo apologies when you are interacting with me. There is a caveat, If I come to you and tell you that you have done me wrong, then, I will expect an apology; never any other time.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 23:18, 24 July 2020 (UTC)

I'd honestly rather risk desensitizing people than possibly leaving them offended. I also ended up calling the woman I mentioned back, and it started an OCD ritual that thankfully ended, in part because of my internal rules, but mostly because the place she was working at was closing for the weekend. Anyway, thanks for taking things well. I also thanked you on the help desk, but forgot to add a reply template, unlike the question I asked you after that reply; I feel conflicted about whether or not I should apologize to you over it.--Thylacine24 (talk) 23:30, 24 July 2020 (UTC)

@Trappist the monk: Also, I'd ask this on the help desk, but that section is getting squeezed thin by the margins, so I'll just ask here - could you please tell me what I should put for the date, since you claim that the magazine source is unreliable, and the website doesn't say what date the interview was uploaded?--Thylacine24 (talk) 02:10, 25 July 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for fixing my Gilteritinib citation

My kindest appreciation for fixing my citation in the gilteritinib article. Going through more than 40? names in that article was daunting. FunksBrother (talk) 18:25, 25 July 2020 (UTC)

Accessdate issue in mlwiki

Can you suggest a solution to the cite error mentioned in this page? Previously, the version yyyymmdd was supported but I think now it's not. Adithyak1997 (talk) 08:28, 26 July 2020 (UTC)

It looks to me like ml.wiki Editor Jacob.jose imported the current version of ml:ഘടകം:Citation/CS1/Date validation which overrode your 4 May 2020 changes.

Looking at some of the other modules in the ml.wiki suite, Editor Jacob.jose imported the entire suite on 19 July and then selectively reverted some of those imports: revert to old version due to issues. What issues? This seems problematic to me because now ml.wiki's cs1|2 suite is a mix of new and old. What were the issues?

—Trappist the monk (talk) 10:54, 26 July 2020 (UTC)

I have currently merged my previous changes but still it's not working. Your edit was reverted due to the reason (i think) that all the translations were removed. Let me try reverting the edit done by you and adding translations. Adithyak1997 (talk) 12:33, 26 July 2020 (UTC)

Can you please check why the current error occurs? An example page is 1741. I have reverted all modules to your version. Adithyak1997 (talk) 13:11, 26 July 2020 (UTC)

The live modules at ml.wiki are now in an unknown state. I recommend that you re-import from en.wiki to your sandboxes (to your sandboxes) make the module suite work there by making the necessary adjustments and adding the necessary translations. Test the sandboxed version. Test the sandboxed version. When it is working, then, and only then, update the ml.wiki live module suite from the sandbox. I know that this is difficult, but right now, every cs1|2 citation at ml.wiki is broken (many thousands of articles). Don't do that to your editors, don't do that to your readers.

The script error is caused by two things:

in ml:ഘടകം:Citation/CS1/Date_validation you uncommented line 893 but did not remove or comment-out line 894

because you did not remove or comment-out line 894, Lua complained. To mute the complaint, you added end at the end of the module.

To fix this, remove or comment-out line 894 and remove the end at the end of the module. Do this now.

Once that is done, the |access-date= error should reappear. That error is likely because ml:ഘടകം:Citation/CS1/Configuration does not have the ml.wiki month-name translations.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 14:33, 26 July 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for the solution. Just a small explanation for the large number of errors - Currently, there are not many editors who are very much active in resolving technical issues and most (almost all) of the modules and templates are being imported from enwiki. What I used to do is that, I will copy the templates and modules and their related ones altogether so that there will be no syncing issues between modules. In this case, I actually corrected the mistake mentioned by you in one of the modules, but couldn't do it in the other. Adithyak1997 (talk) 16:17, 26 July 2020 (UTC)

Help related to IA Bot

Hey there, Trappist! :)

Maybe you can help me with something. Please, take a look here. This is an old problem in SqWiki. As I've clarified even there, the talk page messages are not the problems themselves. The problem is the bot being stuck on loop on certain citations. See the articles' history to see what I mean.

This has been happening for quite a while now and in many pages. First I thought I would just fix them myself by reformatting the said citations using CS1 templates correctly but then, since we were discussing a bit prior to this with Cyber about some other tech fixes related to the bot (follow the rabbit hole here), I thought maybe I could ask him to have a look. Maybe he needed to see that error happening and maybe do some more changes even to his bot so he wouldn't get stuck anymore? And so I did write to him. He became sort of unresponsive at that period and all my messages got auto-archived many times. Desperately I wrote to the EnWiki TechPump for help after some months but there again I didn't find any other response apart from Cyber who told me he would help soon after because he was busy with college. There was no further interaction and we were forced to wait a couple of months more until I wrote what you see above. As you can see, the conversation is still not progressing how I'd like it to go. Now I feel like I've utilized all my possibilities and I don't know where else to write except here. I'd sincerely ask to read the whole discussion here too before writing back to me to fully grasp the situation I'm talking about which deals a bit more than just with the immediate problem I've written above.

So, my request is a two fold one:

1. Can you explain to me what makes the bot stuck on those pages and what is the most effective way to fix that? Emphasis on "the most effective" because there could be tens, if not hundreds of articles like these.
2. Do you know anyone else who could help with the bot in general? I'm really sorry to say this but the latest discussions on these months have been really frustrating and we are literally a whole community waiting for months (almost a year now) for 1 person to be able to be free from school. :P I fully understand we have our lives to attend to (and I've said that countless of times on the discussions I've sort of been forced to participate to on this subject) but one must also understand our POV.

I hope, being the expert on citations, you can at least help with the first point. If I don't find an answer here, I don't really know where else to ask. - Klein Muçi (talk) 10:12, 27 July 2020 (UTC)

Alas, I know nothing about IAbot so I can't suggest why it it doing what it does. Do I understand that you have some sort of control or access to the bot's configuration? Is it possible for you to limit the bot to a certain number of edits per day? This will at least allow those edits can be checked manually and some remedy applied until the bot is repaired. What remedy? Don't know. If the link is not used as a reference (in §External links for example) the link might just be removed. sq.wiki has Stampa:Bots, is IAbot exclusion compliant? Does {{bots|deny|InternetArchiveBot}} work at sq.wiki?

When I have posted IAbot bug reports at Phabricator (this bug is listed there, right?), often the editor who made the repair was Editor GreenC. Perhaps they can help?

—Trappist the monk (talk) 13:04, 27 July 2020 (UTC)

As always, thank you for your fast answer! :) I believe we can (?) restrict the bot in some ways. I mean, I'm sure we can disable it. We can also block it. (2 different things in IA Bot's case.) I believe we can even exclude it from certain pages. But I didn't want to go in any of those sorts as I believed maybe the problem rested with our links, since, as we've talked in the past, we do have a lot of problems with link rotting since we used to not really take care of references in general. The problem from the bot part is just that it tends to get stuck when it encounters problems like whatever those links have and can't unstuck itself. But I do believe those links are problematic in a kind of way and it's not just the bot malfunctioning. If even you don't know a better remedy, I'll try to experiment with the links one by one. I was hoping all this time that this was a well-known phenomenon for you (not you personally, users in general involved with tech stuff around citations) and you'd be able to provide me with an easy solution but apparently it's not.

This bug is not listed there. The reason for that is that, as I've explained before, in the past I tended to work a lot with Cyber "personally" (in his talk page) so he could help me set up and localize IA Bot for SqWiki. Much like we've done together regarding CS1 module. That method works fine as long as the other person is consistent in his answers. :P If you have followed the rabbit hole above, you have seen that we still had another problem to fix (the outcome of which remains unclear) before this started occurring. And the original plan was for me to completely finish setting up the bot correctly before learning how to deal well with its technical intricacies like where to report, how to do that and other small technical details. In the meanwhile I "reported" everything to Cyber's talk page, not being sure if what I was reporting was a problem with my translation or a problem by his side, and I waited for his guidance. 3 out of 5 it was my problem but some times it was really a bug so it needed to be fixed by him. Given my often visits to Cyber's talk page, I've stumbled across GreenC. I've written even to him, in a more general way (even mentioning you along the way, now that I see the old discussion) but judging by the first lines of his answer, he couldn't help a lot with IA Bot problems and was waiting for Cyber's help himself too for something else. You can take a look at that somewhat short discussion here. - Klein Muçi (talk) 13:42, 27 July 2020 (UTC)

This should be fixed hopefully. -- GreenC 21:06, 28 July 2020 (UTC)

Yes, I believe so. Thank you, Trappist for mentioning GreenC! :P :)) - Klein Muçi (talk) 23:25, 28 July 2020 (UTC)

Nomination for merging of Template:Not in refs

Template:Not in refs has been nominated for merging with Template:Failed verification. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for discussion page. Thank you. 84.250.17.211 (talk) 06:16, 1 August 2020 (UTC)

Internationalization - Webarchive/data

Hello! I have two questions (one more specific than the other).

1. In Albanian we have a grammatical rule that the preposition "at" gets translated differently depending on the first character of the next word close to it. If it starts with a consonant, we use "te" and if it starts with a vowel, we use "tek". Is there a technical way in general to make this happen in online translations too? I've been frustrated by so many TranslateWiki translations where I have to translate that preposition.
2. I'm translating this module for SqWiki. The "Local prefixes" part deals exclusively with what I was mentioning above. Is there any way to deal with it so the module uses the prepositions correctly? Maybe by also doing some changes at the next part "Services"? Also, speaking of that, can you help me better understand that part? I know the table already has its legend above but I find it hard to follow through with it, mostly because is my first time dealing with this module. I understand if you can't though because maybe to you is already clear enough. :P - Klein Muçi (talk) 11:03, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

If I understand you, then for appropriate members of the services{} table you can do this:

['archive.ec'] = {'tek', 'Archive.today', nil, 'archiveis', categories.archiveis},

or this:

['nlb.gov.sg'] = {'te', 'Web Archive Singapore'},

Does this answer your issue?

Of course, I think it's clear enough. Specific questions are much easier to answer than nebulous questions ...

—Trappist the monk (talk) 11:41, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

Well, now that you gave me those examples is much clearer. Would I need to change anything at "Local prefixes"? I've just translated them both as "te". Also, regarding the general help in "Services" I was finding it hard to follow the directions above. For example, what actually constitutes as [1], [2] or other numbers? What exactly does each of the instructions mean? The terminology used is a bit technical and it's hard for me to follow through since only today I started dealing with the webarchive template and I'm not sure how it works in practice yet. I'm learning on the go. Would someone else more qualified than me be better in working with it? Yes. But as I've mentioned in the past, I'm the only person looking after citations in SqWiki so I gotta deal with it. What happens if you leave some "numbers" unfilled in? Some of them have less "words" than the others. (I really do apologize for the lack of technical terminology but, as I said, I'm learning on the go.)

Other shorter questions:

1. What does L stand for in addlpages and addlarchives?
2. What exactly are we talking about in the error with Calendar? decodeWaybackDate timestamp has trailing splat
3. How do errors change from warnings logically/intrinsically in the different categories that the module adds?
4. Should I be translating something here Critical error. Render output completely in red. Add to tracking category. in Module:Webarchive?
5. Judging from my past work with CS1 module, how do I change the date format to make it dmy? Or doesn't this question make any sense in this module? - Klein Muçi (talk) 13:09, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

The services{} table is a table of tables. There are basically two kinds of tables in Lua. Services is a key/value table where the elements are named (the key). In this example:

['archive.ec'] = {'tek', 'Archive.today', nil, 'archiveis', categories.archiveis},

archive.ec is the key and everything to the right of the = is the value (also called rvalue – right side of the =)

The rvalue in the above example is the other kind of Lua table, called a sequence. Members of this kind of table are given numeric 'names' left-to-right (or top-to-bottom if written vertically). Because the table is a sequence, the indexes can be (and often are) omitted. The example sequence can be rewritten:

{[1]='tek', [2]='Archive.today', [3]=nil, [4]='archiveis', [5]=categories.archiveis},

The shorter questions:

1. In English, addl is an abbreviation of additional so addlpages → 'additional pages', addlarchives → 'additional archives'
2. The purpose of the template is to link to a specific snapshot at the archive host. When the archive.org url has a splat (* – asterisk) in the timestamp portion of its path, archive.org returns a calendar display:

   https://web.archive.org/web/20200101002334/https://example.com/ – a specific snapshot made at 2020-01-01T00:23:34

   https://web.archive.org/web/20200101*/https://example.com/ – a calendar display because a splat replaces the time portion of the snapshot timestamp

3. Errors and warnings aren't always one or zero integer kinds of values; there is a continuum between zero and one. I suppose it depends on the editor who made the decision on the day as to what constituted an error and what constituted a warning.
4. If you mean in function inlineError(), then yes, you probably want to translate the ' template: ',; presumably you will have translated the crit_err_msgs{} table (delete the iabot1 and iabot2 lines)
5. This template is not cs1|2 and doesn't do date formatting so dates rendered by this template are YYYY-MM-DD unless |date= using another format (dmy, mdy) is supplied.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 14:11, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

I love you, man! <3 hahah I'm sorry for getting more confidential than needed but you are so clear in your explanations and you never fail to help me so...

2 more questions related to what you wrote:

1. What kind of error are we exactly talking when referring to the calendar problem (?)? I'm just asking so I know how to translate the Albanian version of that kind of error. I din't want to just put "kalendar" (calendar in Albanian) and be done with it. I've opted in for a more descriptive nature of language in naming/translating errors if you see the translation in the other errors.
2. Is the error/warning difference a needed feature to keep and replicate in internationalization? Wouldn't it be better if we had only 1 category for both of those things?

Maybe I'll be forced to ask you some other questions a bit later when I start working with the said table. Hopefully, not. - Klein Muçi (talk) 14:26, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

PS: If you mean in function inlineError(), then yes, you probably want to translate the ' template: ',; presumably you will have translated the crit_err_msgs{} table (delete the iabot1 and iabot2 lines) - I guess I should also translate "Error in" no? - Klein Muçi (talk) 14:32, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

Archive.org's calendar display is not what we want; we prefer an actual snapshot of the archived source. It is a warning because from a calendar display, the reader should be able to find an appropriate copy of the source. It would be better to take the reader straight to the source that the editor consulted.

I presume that you are thinking about changing:

warning = 'Category:Webarchive template warnings',

to:

warning = 'Category:Webarchive template errors',

Only you can say whether it is better to combine errors and warnings into a single category or to keep them separate. We have them separate but I can't tell you why or how that decision was made.

Yeah, Error in also.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 15:03, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

I see, thank you! Do warnings' warnings and errors' warnings change in any way graphically? Or is the same red inline text string in both of them? That would help me decide a bit I think.

Also, one more request: Can you take a look at our Module:Webarchive/data and see if the table we talked before seems alright together with the section above it about the preposition "at"? Speaking of that, can I change the English terms there ("at/atthe") to better make sense in the way we're using them in Albanian without causing disruption in the rest of the code? - Klein Muçi (talk) 16:03, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

I believe that if I do change those prefixes there, I should also do so at Servicename in Module:Webarchive and then everything will be alright, no? - Klein Muçi (talk) 16:07, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

You can see that warnings render differently from errors by inspecting some articles in the en.wiki categories Category:Webarchive template warnings and Category:Webarchive template errors.

If the output is grammatically correct for all of the services when using prefixes['at'] = 'tek', and prefixes['atthe'] = 'te',, then you're done. But, is Albanian like English where there are multiple exceptions to every hard and fast rule? You wrote If it starts with a consonant, we use "te" and if it starts with a vowel, we use "tek". So then, because 'te'↔true and 'tek'↔false:

true, 'Archive.today', → 'te Archive.today'

but also:

true, 'Wayback Machine', → 'te Wayback Machine'

and

false, 'Canadian Government Web Archive' → 'tek Canadian Government Web Archive'

but also:

false, 'UK Government Web Archive' → 'tek UK Government Web Archive'

These don't seem to comply with the rule as you stated it. Assuming that they are correct, if you don't don't need the definite article – 'the' at en.wiki – then your solution would seem to work.

If you mean to change the keys in the prefixes{} table, you could, but I think you should not. It might be more helpful to add comments for each member of the prefixes{} table:

local prefixes = {
	at = 'tek',		-- false
	atthe = 'te',		-- true
	}

Adding comments to to help you remember stuff is never a bad thing; don't be afraid to do it.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 16:53, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

Thank you! The thing with that has to do with the pronunciation. W - is usually read as U in Albanian. UK would be read as JuKej. Comments may be needed but I was thinking more of changing them like this:

local prefixes = {
	at(vowel) = 'tek',		-- false
	at(consonant) = 'te',		-- true
	}

That way the translation would make sense logically and that part would not be used just as a technical code. The way it is now doesn't make much sense as a translation even though the code does serve its purpose. - Klein Muçi (talk) 17:15, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

It is possible to write a function, at(), that takes some argument and returns a value for the key. That code might look like this:

local function at(arg)
	if arg then
		return 'te';
	else
		return 'tek';
	end
end

local prefixes = {
	at(false) = 'tek',		-- false
	at(true) = 'te',		-- true
	}

But that seems rather more complicated than necessary. Another alternative might be to write:

local prefixes = {
	[false] = 'tek',		-- false
	[true] = 'te',		-- true
	}

The above matches the boolean true and false as used in the member tables of service with a prefix from the prefixes{} table. This has the benefit of being obvious and, I think, supports i18n better. In the main module we might write:

if 'string' == type (services[index][1]) then							-- select prefix
	table.insert (out, services[index][1]);								-- use the string as the prefix
else								-- presumed boolean
	table.insert (out, prefixes[services[index][1]]);					-- use selected prefix from prefixes{}
end

This looks at the first item, [1], in a services{} member table; if a string then the string is used, else it is presumed to be boolean and the prefix from prefixes{} is used according to the boolean value. I'll experiment with this in a bit.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 20:02, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

I have sandboxed the above (using the English text); it works correctly. See Module talk:Webarchive/testcases, and diffs: main sandbox, data sandbox.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 21:49, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

Thank you a lot! Now to end it, I have some other short questions:

1. local config = {
   	maxurls = 10,																-- Max number of URLs allowed. 
   	tname = 'Webarchive',														-- name of calling template. Change if template rename.
   	verifydates = true,															-- See documentation. Set false to disable.
   	}
   

   What exactly does this part of the code serve for? Should I change anything here?

2. local s_text = {
   	addlarchives = 'Arkiva të tjera',
   	addlpages = 'Faqe të tjera të arkivuara te',
   	Archive_index = 'Indeksi i arkivës',
   	Archived = 'Arkivuar',
   	archived = 'arkivuar',
   	archive = 'arkiva',
   	Page = 'Faqe',
   	}
   

   Here I'm forced to use the te/tek thing again. See the second translation. Any way I can make it work with both words similar to what we did above? Where are exactly these words used? Maybe they are followed by just 1 kind of words and don't need both kinds of prepositions?
3. Some more questions related to the table of tables so I can understand it better:
   1. Do I need to translate anything related to the tracking category keys?
   2. In cases like, bibalex.org, stanford.edu, wikiwix.com, yorku.ca, what exactly are the given values? Do you mind explaining them like you did with the archive.ec above? - Klein Muçi (talk) 23:53, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

I'm out of time for today. Answers tomorrow.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 00:10, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

Answers:

1. maxurls specifies the maximum number of archive snapshots that any one instance of {{webarchive}} will render; tname identifies the template by name in error messages and should be changed if you change the name of the template itself; verifydates enables (true) or disables (false) the comparison between snapshot dates (embedded in the url) and the date in |date=
2. 'Additional pages archived on' static text is only followed by a date does that change the translation?

   if |date=31 July 2020 → 'Additional pages archived on 31 July 2020'

   if |date= (omitted or empty) → 'Additional pages archived on 2020-07-31'

3. Some more answers:
   1. no; internals that are not visible to the reader need not be translated
   2. not sure that I understand this question. The format is the same for all services listed in the services{} table. If you are noting the absence of items then those 'missing' items are still present but are nil so default to nil values; the explicit nil in this table is required so that the 'Wikiwix' will be in the correct place:

      ['wikiwix.com'] = {false, nil, 'Wikiwix'},
      

      rewritten is:

      ['wikiwix.com'] = {[1] = false, [2] = nil, [3] = 'Wikiwix', [4] = nil, [5] = nil, [6] = nil},
      

Did I answer your questions?

—Trappist the monk (talk) 11:48, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

I have tweaked the en.wiki sandbox so that default date format (when |date= is omitted or empty) can be specified in the config{} table.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 15:37, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

First of all, a dumb question maybe I should have asked since the beginning: What does the Webarchive template actually do? I mean, I know its purpose in general but I'm sure you can fill in the details for me. That will help me better understand what you said in the beginning of the last text. As for the te/tek thing, now that I understand its need, I understand that both te and tek prepositions are wrong. We should use a whole different preposition that doesn't "suffer" from the same "problem" as the aforementioned prepositions above. So that's solved.

The problem with the last question is again with terminology. Being that I'm new in the "archives world", I can't really understand what is actually missing. For example, when I see "Bibliotheca Alexandrina#Internet Archive partnership" I really am not sure what that actually is. Is it [2]? Is it [4]? Is it a "tracking category key"? I literally don't know because most of the terms, even the ones related to archives, even the ones related to the technical Lua jargon, are unfamiliar to me. I'm still familiarizing myself with those. So that's why I asked to "rewrite" some of those so I can understand what is which and what does each of them mean. - Klein Muçi (talk) 20:01, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

I will update the SqWiki module accordingly! :)) - Klein Muçi (talk) 20:02, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

I have seen the template used to add an archive to manually formatted citations; as a replacement for a bare archive url; as a way to augment |archive-url= in cs1|2 citations. No doubt, there are other ways that the template has been used.

The rvalue portion of ['bibalex.org'] = {false, 'Bibliotheca Alexandrina#Internet Archive partnership', 'Bibliotheca Alexandrina'}, is the same as

{[1] = false, [2] = 'Bibliotheca Alexandrina#Internet Archive partnership', [3] = 'Bibliotheca Alexandrina', [4] = nil, [5] = nil, [6] = nil},

We already know that services[index][1] is used to fetch a value from the prefixes{} table. services[index][2] and services[index][3] are used to create the wikilink in the template rendering:

[[ + services[index][2] + | + services[index][3] + ]] → [[Bibliotheca Alexandrina#Internet Archive partnership|Bibliotheca Alexandrina]] → Bibliotheca Alexandrina

For the wikiwix.com service entry, [2] is nil which tells the module that en.wiki does not have an article so the label services[index][3] (Wikiwix) is not linked in the template rendering. Because [2] and [3] are used to create wikilinks, these may be translated to link to matching articles at sq.wiki – if you have articles for them. If there isn't an article for the service at sq.wiki, choose an appropriate article name and let the template redlink it, or as we did with Wikiwix, don't link. You can see that some services don't have [3] or [3] = nil. When there is [2], the module creates a simple wikilink using only the value from [2].

—Trappist the monk (talk) 22:01, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

Thank you! I now have 2 last questions and a very nagging request.

1. Can you take a look at our version of the template "Webarchive" and see if it is up to date compared with the EnWiki one? I must make it clear here that nothing you may see is intentional. We have started dealing with archives seriously only these days and the way the template is, is only because it was forgotten like that since when it was exported from EnWiki years ago.
2. Where do all these dated categories come from in here? It says that if we don't put dates, a bot will. Which bot does that?
3. [Request]: Is it possible for you to rewrite the whole table at the Albanian page for mod. Webarchive/data in the newbie style that you've used above for explanations? :P Not now, whenever you find time for it. It would make my work with it so much easier. Even though now I understood theoretically what the rvalues there mean. - Klein Muçi (talk) 02:43, 1 August 2020 (UTC)

Answers:

1. In config{}, should it be default_df = 'dmy',? You added month-name translations to month_num{} but left those names commented out?
2. More than one bot does that: AnomieBOT is the primary bot to add dates (see this diff); InternetArchiveBot adds the {{dead link}} template with dates (see this diff)
3. done

—Trappist the monk (talk) 19:47, 1 August 2020 (UTC)

Thank you! So, is our webarchive template good? Do I need to change anything on it?

I meant to ask you if I should change iso to dmy. As for the months, I just forgot to uncomment them. I fixed them now. Just for curiosity, what does iso stand for in that case?

And lastly, what would the best approach be to deal with the category creation in this case? There are hundreds of categories to be created for each month and year. I guess I have to do them manually, no? Klein Muçi (talk) 02:53, 2 August 2020 (UTC)

I'm not sure IA Bot does add dates when using that template on SqWiki... :/ Any way I can check it? - Klein Muçi (talk) 10:04, 2 August 2020 (UTC)

The template it self? I don't think that there is anything wrong. It is missing its documentation page; templates without a documentation page are mostly useless to editors.

iso is for year-initial numeric dates that look like ISO 8601 dates: for today 2020-08-02. ymd is for 2020 August 2. You know about the others.

{{Webarchive}} and so Module:Webarchive use only seven categories. You are confusing this with {{dead link}}?

It would appear that {{dead link}} at sq.wiki rarely uses the |date= parameter; see this search result. Could be because sq:Stampa:Lidhje_e_vdekur doesn't have any template documentation so your editors don't know about the |date= parameter.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 11:07, 2 August 2020 (UTC)

Yes, you're very right! I've been working in parallel with {{Webarchive}} and {{dead link}}. [Side info just in case I mix anything up in the future: I'm also translating the whole IA Bot Management Interface and it's Meta page. And soon enough I'll have to take a look at Mod. CS1 for any new needed updates. (Basically everything dealing with external links.)] So bear with me if I mix up concepts. Thank you for your explanations! We have a serious problem with documentations. The category I've been talking about in the last comments is this one: Articles with dead external links. I was referring to that one when I asked about the bot adding dates. Also when referring to subcategories. So, basically, does IA Bot add the date to dead links? Will they be auto-categorized like in EnWiki if I create the needed subcategories? Do I need to create every subcategory that EnWiki has? If I do, is there any smart way to do that and not have to create each of them manually? I believe you've explained everything there is to explain related to the webarchive template/module. I was a bit worried that our code for it was outdated since overall it didn't look the same as in EnWiki but I'm taking your word for it. :) - Klein Muçi (talk) 12:14, 2 August 2020 (UTC)

Error: I meant the Albanian {{dead link}} template both times when I asked about the template's code. (Not {{Webarchive}}.) I see how you may have been confused by my question. I'm sorry. As I said, I'm dealing with a lot of things simultaneously these days and I mix them up. Please, take a look at that template's code. - Klein Muçi (talk) 12:34, 2 August 2020 (UTC)

Continues at User talk:Trappist the monk § dead link.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 15:35, 2 August 2020 (UTC)

Lua

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Hello Trappist. Thanks for your response at Wikipedia talk:Lua, but TBH I don't understand, as I don't know Lua at all (I have no idea what a global is). I saw someone else created this module (which is great) and want to widen its use. However, I don't know how to code it, so have just been messing around doing it by trial and error... If there's any chance you could fix it (if it's a quick fix), that would be great. Cheers, Number 57 22:11, 2 August 2020 (UTC)

It isn't clear to me what it is that you are wanting to do. If I preview the example templates at Template:Election results/testcases using the live template and module, I see what looks to be correct rendering. I added {{Testcase table}} to give side-by-side renderings.

What is wrong with the live version that you want changed?

Globals are items that have global scope – are visible and changeable (that's the dangerous part) from anywhere in the module. For safety and reliability, every function, table, and variable in a module should be declared local so that its scope is limited to where it is used. Stuff will still go wrong but the wrongness is usually confined to a smaller portion of the code.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 22:46, 2 August 2020 (UTC)

Moved to Wikipedia talk:Lua/Archive 9 § Election results module

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

|coauthors

Hi. I've not used it deliberately. It's generated by the Google Books citation utility and I remove it whenever I notice it. However, now and again I have failed to notice it. Deb (talk) 07:35, 3 August 2020 (UTC)

contact

Trappist the monk, Apologies if I've edited this improperly (I'm not esp. Wiki-literate). I've lost your email address, so would you please contact me at [redacted]? This concerns overseas effort to resurrect a Soundstream DTR. Thanks!

   Jules

Ssier (talk) 20:36, 5 August 2020 (UTC)

Thank you for correcting my citation errors!

I saw after I finished my edit that I created lots of citation errors on Oculocutaneous albinism, so thank you so so much for fixing what I messed up! I didn't have a chance right then to correct them, so I really appreciate your help! TuskDeer (talk) 00:05, 6 August 2020 (UTC)

Proposed deletion of Wayne P. Armstrong

The article Wayne P. Armstrong has been proposed for deletion because of the following concern:

Wayne P. Armstong has not received significant coverage in reliable secondary sources that are independent of the subject.

While all constructive contributions to Wikipedia are appreciated, pages may be deleted for any of several reasons.

You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the {{proposed deletion/dated}} notice, but please explain why in your edit summary or on the article's talk page.

Please consider improving the page to address the issues raised. Removing {{proposed deletion/dated}} will stop the proposed deletion process, but other deletion processes exist. In particular, the speedy deletion process can result in deletion without discussion, and articles for deletion allows discussion to reach consensus for deletion.

cs1|2

I'm sorry to disturb you but while waiting to find a fix with the problem mentioned above, I updated the CS1 module (a periodic thing now) and I'm experiencing a problem I'm not able to fix. When you use |language= it gets rendered like this: in [language name]. This works fine for every language except for our local one, Albanian. We've talked in the past that we want to have that shown (and even categorized but the categorization is fine) and it used to show normally. I'm just not sure what I might have changed while updating the module to remove that functionality. What's the little detail I'm missing? - Klein Muçi (talk) 11:56, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

If I search sq.wiki for the exact text "in [language name]" I get no hits. Where are you seeing this?

I know that we modified the module to categorize when local_lang_cat_enable is set to true and to emit an error message when |language= does not have a value. I have no memory of showing your local language when it is the only language listed in |language=. Can you show me where we made that decision? I looked back into several older versions of the sq.wiki module suite and can find no evidence that we ever implemented anything that would cause the module to show the local language name when it is the only language listed in |language=.

And aren't you being just a bit premature by copying our sandbox into your live modules? Stuff in our sandboxen can go away at a whim, might be broken, ...

—Trappist the monk (talk) 13:16, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

Oh... I thought that came as a package with the decision of categorization and I had broke something while updating. When it comes to CS1, experience has shown that I'm way more prone to errors than you are, even regarding my memory so... I guess it's all right then. Not sure if rendering the local language name when it is the only one listed, would make a difference to the reader experience so... When I said "in [language name]" I translated that in English to make it easier for you to understand. In Albanian it would be "në [language name]" (for example: Në italisht, në anglisht, në shqip...).

Regarding the sandbox update... I was worried about that too but since every CS1 update in SqWiki is followed by some "confusion" by many users, including me, after I checked the differences between the live ones and the sandbox pages and after I studied a bit what had changed in general following the discussions, I thought maybe I'd "gamble it" and hope that it's all right on the first time and we wouldn't need to update everything twice. With confusion I mean that some users start wondering what's happening with the citations showing errors in the hours it takes me to finish the update of the whole pages and I'm confused myself too because, unfortunately, a lot of times I lose the changes that are specific to us while copy-pasting and it takes me some hours, if not days, to finally notice that something has changed in the references and I need to get it back. I've thought of putting comments but every extra thing added would make the updating process harder because I would have to copy it line by line so I don't remove the comments so...

I'll make sure to keep an eye on it all the time until it goes live though.

Since we're discussing languages, in general, does |language= understand values like "English" or "Anglisht" (Albanian) or does it work only with 2 character ISO codes? Can it be made to understand those terms too? A lot of our users try to fill that parameter with the language names and the references end up in the category of unknown languages. - Klein Muçi (talk) 17:42, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

Pretty sure I've said this before: make a document that lists all of the changes needed module-by-module; import en.wiki modules to your sandbox, make the fixes there, updating your list as necessary; test the fixed modules against known testcases. When you are satisfied with the test results, then and only then, update the live modules from your sandboxen all at once. This is basically how I do it here: I open all of the live modules for editing in individual tabs, paste in the updates from the sandboxen, set the edit summaries, align the pages so that the 'publish changes' buttons are at the same screen-height for all tabs, and then I move as quickly as I can, tab-to-tab, clicking the publish changes button. It is a pain but, unless I have broken something catastrophically, only a handful of articles show the glaring so only those few need a null edit.

Just as en.wiki understands |language=English but does not understand |language=anglisht, sq.wiki understands |language=anglisht but does not understand |language=English. Alas, MediaWiki language support for the various language wikis isn't as complete as it is at en.wiki. I'm pretty sure that I once suggested that you import Template:Citation Style documentation/language/doc and Module:cs1 documentation support which will show you exactly what language names and codes are supported at sq.wiki. You can see what language names and codes are supported at en.wiki by visiting Template:Citation Style documentation/language/doc. Using codes is better than using language names because the codes are standard (if supported) across the various language wikis.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 19:56, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

Yes, you have. The problem is that I really don't know how to do that practically. ... make a document that lists all of the changes needed module-by-module; import en.wiki modules to your sandbox, make the fixes there, updating your list as necessary; test the fixed modules against known testcases. I guess it's pretty easy to do it but since we never use sandboxes, let alone testcases, in SqWiki, I don't know how to practically use them. That's why I've been reluctant of creating the sandbox infrastructure for the module.

Yes, you have. I thought maybe there was a way to hack language lists from the module itself. Like we do for aliases of different parameters, usually in different languages. And we could start adding at that list little by little, different language aliases from different languages and make the module understand more terms related to language names. But since that's fixed... -Klein Muçi (talk) 01:27, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

dead link

Continued from User talk:Trappist the monk § Internationalization - Webarchive/data

Yeah, sq:Template:dead link is out of date. So is sq:Template:fix and so is sq:Module:unsubst. Updating {{fix}} will require a new sq:Template:Fix/category. Additionally, some of the templates that use sq:Module:unsubst will need to be changed to remove |$N= from the {{#invoke:unsubst}}. Fortunately, there aren't many of them; see this search result. There may be other updates required should you decide to update {{dead link}}.

Right now, because there are relatively few articles with {{dead link}} templates that use |date=, there are not a bazillion sub-categories to be added to Kategoria:Artikuj me lidhje të jashtme të vdekura; see this search result.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 15:35, 2 August 2020 (UTC)

Hmm... What exactly is the relation between Fix, unsubst and dead link?

So basically there is no shortcut to that. We really need to have all those categories created from scratch. What year do we start? 2008 like EnWiki? - Klein Muçi (talk) 16:06, 2 August 2020 (UTC)

{{dead link}} is one of many in-line cleanup tag templates that use {{fix}} for rendering. None of these templates should substed. Were {{dead link}} substed in an article, the result would be something like this:

[[Category:All articles with dead external links]][[Category:Articles with dead external links from August 2020]]<sup class="noprint Inline-Template"><span style="white-space: nowrap;">&#91;<i>[[Wikipedia:Link rot|<span title="&nbsp;Dead link since August 2020">dead link</span>]]</i>&#93;</span></sup>

To prevent that, {{dead link}} calls {{#invoke:unsubst}} which substs {{subst:dead link|date=August 2020}} with {{dead link|date=August 2020}} – the substed template is converted to a template transclusion.

No. You do not need to have all those categories created from scratch. That would be pointless. Create categories as you need them. This search result lists the articles at sq.wiki that use {{dead link}} with |date=<month year> (30 articles at this writing). From the search results, the article sq:Tejlidhje has {{dead link|date=September 2010}} which adds sq:Kategoria:Artikuj me lidhje të jashtme të vdekura since September 2010. At that category, there are two other articles listed; both of which are also in the search results. So, creating Kategoria:Artikuj me lidhje të jashtme të vdekura since September 2010 (probably as a redirect to an appropriately translated category ...) is all that needs doing for those three articles. 27 articles remain. As an aside, this search result indicates that sq:Stampa:Lidhje e vdekur is not used by its local name and that all of the transclusions of that template are though its redirects.

If you are going to update {{dead link}}, {{fix}}, and {{#invoke:unsubst}}, defer category creation until after the template and module updates. Do this because category names may have changed between the time of your versions and the current en.wiki versions. Also, this seems no small task so perhaps better deferred to a time when all of your processor cycles can be devoted to this task.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 17:18, 2 August 2020 (UTC)

I see now. Thank you for your detailed answer! Well, might as well start little by little then. I'll try and start from the module - hope there is not a lot to localize - and then continue with {{fix}} and {{dead link}}. I hope I won't need to disturb you a lot during this time. - Klein Muçi (talk) 22:57, 2 August 2020 (UTC)

Nope, it didn't take long for me to come back. :P So, in module Unsubst I guess I should translate the specialParams part and the 2 errors. (Not sure if I should also translate the "number" word in line 112.) The problem is I don't know the context of most of the text strings that are to be translated. Can you show me somewhere how those 4 parameters and 2 errors are used/rendered in EnWiki so I can follow up with their localization? - Klein Muçi (talk) 00:03, 3 August 2020 (UTC)

You know, I'm not sure that I would worry about localizing sq:Module:Unsubst. Any message output from that module is not for readers but for template writers. You could translate the error messages I suppose.

It isn't clear to me that the values assigned to the keys in specialParams{} have any meaning except for use as place-holders. I think that the rvalues in specialParams{} could be anything except nil and the module would still work. In the two places there specialParams{} is used, the question asked is: "Is this parameter that I got from the wrapping template one of those mentioned in specialParams{}? For that the value assigned to the keys can be anything that can be resolved as true so no real point in translating.

Certainly do not translate number in line 112 because if not (type(k) == 'number' and k < tmp) then args[k] = nil end is looking to see if the 'type' of k is a number. type(arg) returns a string indicating the type of arg which can be: nil, number, string, boolean, table, or function. Lua doesn't understand Albanian.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 22:22, 3 August 2020 (UTC)

LOL Okay then. If that's the case, I'm leaving that module for another time since it doesn't interfere directly with the dead link template. I'm going on with the fix template now. - Klein Muçi (talk) 22:46, 3 August 2020 (UTC)

Updated the code for the fix template and created fix/category. Is there anything there to translate apart from the category names? - Klein Muçi (talk) 23:03, 3 August 2020 (UTC)

Just a friendly reminder in case you have missed my last message here. DO take your time in answering it though. I just wanted to make sure it hasn't slipped your attention. - Klein Muçi (talk) 14:47, 8 August 2020 (UTC)

Pretty sure that categories are all that need translating. No doubt, you'll figure out that I'm wrong when someone there complains...

—Trappist the monk (talk) 00:46, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

I did that and the translations needed for template {{dead link}}. But the two categories associated with it are still empty. How is that possible? Can you take a look and help me a bit? - Klein Muçi (talk) 02:47, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

I have spent the last hour trying to noodle out the convoluted collection of templates without success. Do you know that the template worked properly before you began doing the translations? Are all of the templates that {{dead link}} uses up-to-date?

—Trappist the monk (talk) 13:48, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

I'm sorry to hear that. :/ Depends on what you mean with "worked". It did the same thing it does now: It marked the links as dead. But I don't believe the categorization process worked. I mean, I'm sure the dated categorization didn't work. It didn't even have the option for that, if I'm not wrong. That's what started all this updating process. But I believe even the normal categorization process didn't work. I made sure of updating {{Fix}} and {{fix/category}}. Even the module Unsubst. Like you suggested. I'm not sure if there is something else to be done. It's true I didn't update the templates associated with the module by removing the |$N= parameter from them. Partly because I wasn't sure how to do that without messing up things, and partly because my attention was towards templates associated with IA Bot. But I don't believe this has something to do with the problem I'm experiencing, no? - Klein Muçi (talk) 14:46, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

I guess I'll have to solve this with the good ol' trial and error method. :P You can go on and archive this discussion. :) - Klein Muçi (talk) 11:56, 13 August 2020 (UTC)

I was able to get sq:Stampa:Lidhje e vdekur to track pages at sq:Kategoria:Artikuj me lidhje të jashtme të vdekura with this edit for no explainable reason. It's a hack and not as designed but is tracking pages. Required percent encoding extended ascii. -- GreenC 18:51, 13 August 2020 (UTC)

When I changed your version from:

<includeonly>[[Kategoria:Artikuj_me_lidhje_t%C3%AB_jashtme_t%C3%AB_vdekura]]</includeonly>

to:

<includeonly>{{main other|[[Kategoria:Artikuj_me_lidhje_t%C3%AB_jashtme_t%C3%AB_vdekura]]}}</includeonly>

and then preview sq:Interneti, I see the hidden cat. If I change the preview to sq:Përdoruesi diskutim:GreenC, not in mainspace, I do not see the hidden cat. So, sq:Template:main other appears to work. But, inside sq:Template:Fix, it does not – which was the rat-hole I found myself in when I last looked at this mess. I suppose, for the temporary fix, using sq:Template:main other instead of unconditionally categorizing all namespaces would be preferred.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 19:25, 13 August 2020 (UTC)

Ok done. Klein Muçi, the template is basic tracking for now. It's missing some features but maybe new ideas will arise. -- GreenC 20:36, 13 August 2020 (UTC)

Hey there! Thank you a lot! Somehow I hadn't thought of checking the other templates involved in there. I'll give them a look, maybe I can update them to EnWiki standard's (if they're outdated) and maybe the problem get fixed altogether. But thank you even for this though! :)) - Klein Muçi (talk) 23:14, 13 August 2020 (UTC)

Nope. Tried to make your work easier somehow but everything is up to date. :P Oh well... Let's keep it like this then. Thank you! :) - Klein Muçi (talk) 23:27, 13 August 2020 (UTC)

Quick help with webarchive module

Hi! Can you help me fix a minor thing with Lua?

Our webarchive module, as it currently is, renders the errors like this: Gabim te Webarchive stampa: Mungon adresa e arkivimit.

The syntax is a bit off in Albanian. Two words need to change place. The correct way to display that message would be like this: Gabim te stampa Webarchive: Mungon adresa e arkivimit.

So, basically, what do I change in the part down below so those words change place?

local function inlineError (msg, args)
	track[categories.error] = 1
	return table.concat ({
		'<span style="font-size:100%" class="error citation-comment">Gabim te ',	-- open the error message span
		config.tname,															-- insert the local language template name
		' stampa: ',
		substitute (msg, args),													-- insert the formatted error message
		'.</span>',																-- close the span
		createTracking()														-- add the category
		})
end

- Klein Muçi (talk) 11:54, 15 August 2020 (UTC)

This I think:

local function inlineError (msg, args)
	track[categories.error] = 1
	return table.concat ({
		'<span style="font-size:100%" class="error citation-comment">Gabim te stampa ',	-- open the error message span
		config.tname,															-- insert the local language template name
		': ',
		substitute (msg, args),													-- insert the formatted error message
		'.</span>',																-- close the span
		createTracking()														-- add the category
		})
end

If that doesn't work, let me know and give me a place at sq.wiki to see the error messages, and I'll attend to it.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 22:47, 15 August 2020 (UTC)

LOL, fixed. Easier than expected. Thank you! :)) - Klein Muçi (talk) 23:11, 15 August 2020 (UTC)

Thank and undo?

I undid a useful edit you did on List of United States Air Force communications squadrons in order to undo the previous edit, which destroyed formatting and removed images despite claiming to do something else. Doesn't appear to be vandalism, just messy editing. You may want to go back and repeat your edit. Sorry to delete it, but I don't know of another way to reach the other edit. --Lineagegeek (talk) 14:57, 16 August 2020 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

	The Technical Barnstar
	I know it's been over a year ago, but I wanted to thank you again for working on Module:Calendar widget. It looked as though it took some time to tweak, and the "final" product is rather amazing. Thanks again! Steel1943 (talk) 17:55, 17 August 2020 (UTC)

Request to chat

Dear TtM,
As the coordinator of so much to do with reference styles and footnoting standards on WP, I would like to be able to have a call with you to get your opinions about some practical ideas regarding the future of WikiCite - I was talking with RexxS the other day and thought you would have particular insight into the issues at hand. I don't know your email address etc. so If you'd be willing, contact me by lwyatt-ctrwikimedia.org and we can arrange a time. Sincerely, LWyatt (WMF) (talk) [a.k.a. Wittylama] 12:52, 18 August 2020 (UTC)

If you want to talk to me, this is the place to do it. But, lest you set your expectations too high, let me tell you that I know nothing about WikiCite.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 13:48, 18 August 2020 (UTC)

By 'chat', I mean a video/audio call. It's a far too open-ended issue at the moment to be able to succinctly phrase by talkpage messages. Moreover, this pertains to potentially asking for a new round of external grant funding (after the current round expires mid-next year) so this 'early work' is not something that should be publicly documented (later yes, but not yet. This is still research). But - by the deliberate lack of userpage and 'email this user' - I take it you value your personal privacy highly, and fair enough. So if you don't wish to make such a call that's perfectly understandable, and I can come back at a later date when [if!] there's something more tangible.

WikiCite is, at present, is an externally funded grant to the WMF to support Open Citations and linked bibliographic data. For the previous few years this has primarily mainfested as an annual conference on the topic, and in the last year as a grant program for 'satellite events' [in fact, this week I will be 'launching' the new round of the call for proposals for people who have relevant projects they would like to be funded - for which you (and anyone else reading this message) would be most welcome to apply for]. Many volunteers have undertaken projects which fall in the scope of what WikiCite supports (e.g. mass uploads of structured data to Wikidata about scholarly journal articles), but WikiCite as a grant itself can't take 'credit' for their work!

From mid-next year, that external funding finishes and I am currently researching the possibilities for what a new request could be, what it would be targeted to achieve, what is viable, what is most needed... So, you and your work seem to me to be a highly relevant stakeholder to that goal - and thus I'd like to get your opinions earlier rather than later. LWyatt (WMF) (talk) 14:55, 18 August 2020 (UTC)

Sorry, I guess there will be no conversation. When we can have a public conversation that doesn't commit me to secret-keeping, let me know.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 15:31, 18 August 2020 (UTC)

Fair enough, and thanks for the fast responses. I don't mean to imply this is "secret keeping", so much as it is one-to-one conversations with relevant and informed people for their ideas and feedback. A conversation like that doesn't lend itself week to threaded chat on mediawiki talkpages. But, when/if this gets to the stage that there's a [public] draft document to give feedback upon, I'll be sure to send you a note. Cheers, LWyatt (WMF) (talk) 16:54, 18 August 2020 (UTC)

@Trappist the monk: - I've got a public proposal draft that you might like to review and comment upon, so I'm mentioning it here (in your talkpage archive) to connect back to the original discussion - as promised. Here: Meta:WikiCite/Shared_Citations. I have tried to integrate awareness/visibility for issues which I believe you would be particularly interested in (e.g. I've explicitly mentioned "CS1" and "CITEVAR" through relevant sections of the text - for example) and would appreciate any comments you might have about it (ideally on the Meta talkpage). Sincerely, LWyatt (WMF) (talk) 18:59, 10 February 2021 (UTC)

Categories of CS1 being added manually

Hello, Trappist! :)

I have a somewhat naive question: When dealing with error solving with CS1, I've seen some articles that don't appear to have any real errors in them but still appear in the error categories. When I investigated a bit further, I saw that these pages were being added not by the cite templates but by users putting the category error there manually. I'm not sure why they would do that but I noticed that this was somehow a small rising trend in SqWiki. Have you had any experience with a phenomenon like this? What would be the best approach to deal with it? Lately I've been trying to set up a pywikibot that will use simple regex to fix some of the errors, like replacing language names in English with their ISO code so they are not unknown languages anymore or removing the ref=harv/ref=harvnb parameters. I was thinking of also adding some regex to automatically remove any categories added that belong to the CS1 module but, halfway through, I abandoned that idea because it looked like too much work for a (still) small problem. Any experience with this situation you can share? - Klein Muçi (talk) 12:07, 21 August 2020 (UTC)

There have been bugs in that abomination that is ve where copying a cs1|2 template from one article and pasting it into another, ve pasted the rendered citation and not the source template. Pasting a rendered citation that had errors will make it that editors are adding the error categories because the rendering includes those categories. I have seen error and maintenance categories at the end of an article, placed there, I suppose, by well meaning editors; perhaps because they saw them in the source and moved them to the end? I don't know...

This crude search string finds about 650 articles at en.wiki (about 100 at sq.wiki) with what appear to be rendered templates that may have been caused by the ve bugs:

hastemplate:"Module:Citation/CS1" insource:/\<cite id|class=\"citation/

—Trappist the monk (talk) 13:21, 21 August 2020 (UTC)

You may also be able to use petscan to find articles in a list of categories. Petscan allows you to save a report URL, so that you can bookmark it and check it occasionally. – Jonesey95 (talk) 13:31, 21 August 2020 (UTC)

Oh... So it is related to using VE. That would explain why it is only happening these days. We've started massively using CTT since we asked for it to be pre-activated for every user in the project. That really has helped us with our new article income to be honest, and has made more new users want to stick around after the first try. Since CTT cooperates with VE, that's probably what's bringing those categories there. I tried your search string but I couldn't find error categories in those articles (in some of them in which I searched for). Any more specific way to search for categories specifically so I can remove them? :P Any other way to notify users of not doing this practice? Maybe by putting a template on the categories that understands when the category is being used directly/manually and renders an error notification on the article's page to remove it? Just brainstorming here. I'm walking in unknown territory...

@Jonesey95: unfortunately I'm not familiar with Petscan and therefore I'm not sure how you are suggesting it would help me in this situation. The interface looks easy enough though but not sure what I should do with it about this problem. - Klein Muçi (talk) 17:12, 21 August 2020 (UTC)

I don't know that your issue is or is not related to that abomination that is ve; I just know that for a time it broke citation templates that were copy/pasted article-to-article.

One of the things that I would like to see us do is standardize error-category names. For categories, this search applies to most error and all maintenance categories:

hastemplate:"Module:Citation/CS1" insource:/\[Kategoria:Gabime|Mirëmbajtje CS1/

Won't find the handful of Category:Pages [with|using] ... cats; too generic.

I don't know what Hulk text is but if you are referring to the un-closed <cite> tag in the search string, fixed that.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 19:32, 21 August 2020 (UTC)

Well, that search will be helpful. And yes, I was referring to that. - Klein Muçi (talk) 01:56, 22 August 2020 (UTC)

Language link leads to disambiguation page

Hey, I noticed that the Haitian, Tibetan and Tonga {{ISO 639 name}} language links lead to disambiguation pages. Links:

• Haitian Creole
• Haitian Creole

• Standard Tibetan
• Standard Tibetan
• Standard Tibetan

• Tongan
• Tongan

Is this fixable? --Gonnym (talk) 05:41, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

Of course. That's one of the purposes for Module:Language/data/ISO 639 override. Fixed.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 10:20, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

Thanks! --Gonnym (talk) 14:32, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

But what does your 2.5 templates still need fixing edit summary mean?

—Trappist the monk (talk) 14:44, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

Oh sorry, I didn't think it might get lost in the edit. It's up at User talk:Trappist the monk#Final uses in other templates. --Gonnym (talk) 14:53, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

Duplicate ISO lists

Ok, now that 1k+ templates have been deleted, it was easier to find these templates where the ISO 639 list is duplicated:

• Template:Lang2iso
• Template:ISO 639-1 - replaced code.
• Template:ISO 639-2 - leave as is.
• Template:ConvertAbbrev/ISO 639-1 - TfD.
• Template:ConvertAbbrev/ISO 639-2 - TfD.
• Template:Expand language (this might be only Wikipedia languages) - leave as is.

Have any idea how best to handle these? --Gonnym (talk) 17:52, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

We've talked about {{Lang2iso}}. I've tweaked the sandbox version of iso_639_name_to_code() so that it walks through part 1, then 2, 3, 5 always checking that part's override table first. That fixes the Norwegian Bokmål problem:

{{#invoke:ISO 639 name/sandbox|iso_639_name_to_code|norwegian bokmål}} → nb

For the others:

• {{ISO 639-1}} – this seems to lend itself to using Module:ISO 639 name so it could reduce to:

  <span class="plainlinks">[https://www.loc.gov/standards/iso639-2/php/langcodes_name.php?iso_639_1={{#iferror:{{#invoke:ISO 639 name|iso_639_code_1_to_name|{{{1|}}}}}||{{{1|}}}}} {{{2|{{{1}}}}}}]</span>
  

• {{ISO 639-2}} – not so sanguine about this because the url requires a numeric identifier instead of a language code as {{ISO 639-1}} does. I don't see any advantage to simply porting that to the ISO 639 name module; maintaining a list by hand is maintaining a list by hand whether it is the big #switch statement or it is a table in a data module. If the library of congress can be convinced to update to use the ISO 639-2 code ... yeah, not gonna hold my breath.
• {{ConvertAbbrev/ISO 639-1}} – can probably go to TfD.

  There are two instances at Talk:Lists of Bienes de Interés Cultural § Move proposal:

  {{lang-{{ConvertAbbrev|languages|Croatian}}|Upisnik zaštićenih prirodnih vrijednosti}} → {{lang-{{ConvertAbbrev|languages|Croatian}}|Upisnik zaštićenih prirodnih vrijednosti}}

  {{lang-{{ConvertAbbrev|languages|Albanian}}|Objekte fetare me statusin Monument Kulture}} → {{lang-{{ConvertAbbrev|languages|Albanian}}|Objekte fetare me statusin Monument Kulture}}

  which can be replaced with:

  {{lang-{{#invoke:ISO 639 name|iso_639_name_to_code|Croatian|1}}|Upisnik zaštićenih prirodnih vrijednosti}} → {{lang-{{#invoke:ISO 639 name|iso_639_name_to_code|Croatian|1}}|Upisnik zaštićenih prirodnih vrijednosti}}

  {{lang-{{#invoke:ISO 639 name|iso_639_name_to_code|Albanian|1}}|Objekte fetare me statusin Monument Kulture}} → {{lang-{{#invoke:ISO 639 name|iso_639_name_to_code|Albanian|1}}|Objekte fetare me statusin Monument Kulture}}

• {{ConvertAbbrev/ISO 639-2}} – can probably go to TfD; not used (I didn't investigate any of the rest of that suite of templates).
• {{Expand language}} – Yeah, MediaWiki supported languages; I see no benefit of mucking around in that

—Trappist the monk (talk) 00:44, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

Updated progress. I'm starting to clean Category:ISO 639 name template errors. I noticed that Punjabi (found on Wikipedia:Template index/Redirect language codes) is a dab page. --Gonnym (talk) 08:39, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

pnb added to Module:Language/data/ISO 639 override.

This:

[[{{ISO 639 name|pnb}} language|Western Panjabi/W. Punjabi]] → Western Panjabi/W. Punjabi

can be rewritten as:

{{ISO 639 name|pnb|link=yes|label=Western Panjabi/W. Punjabi}} → Western Panjabi/W. Punjabi

most on that page won't need |label= ...

Also, on that page {{maroon}} doesn't work – renders as a <span>...</span>, an in-line tag, but wraps <dl>...</dl> and <dd>...</dd> which are block tags. {{maroon}} would need to use a <div>...</div> in order to color definition lists; but to what purpose? And why so much bold; no need for shouting, right?

—Trappist the monk (talk) 11:35, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

Yeah, I have no idea even what the purpose of that page is. It's a sub page of a template index, but lists no templates at all. I just tried to eliminate the error on that page which is why I found it. --Gonnym (talk) 11:57, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

More links leading to dab pages

I've added /testcases pages to the module so I found more dab pages.

Just have ISO-3 to go through now. --Gonnym (talk) 11:58, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

Done! --Gonnym (talk) 12:36, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for the testcases. Explain the rationale for Module:ISO 639 name/testcases/ISO 639-1-1 and Module:ISO 639 name/testcases/ISO 639-1-2? Why do these, which purportedly test ISO 639-1, have ISO 639-2, -3 codes?

—Trappist the monk (talk) 15:04, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

That might be my sub-par understanding of the dataset. I couldn't find 639-1 so I thought that was Module:Language/data/iana languages, which was what I used. --Gonnym (talk) 15:09, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

Ok, I've deleted ~/testcases/ISO 639-1-1, moved ~/testcases/ISO 639-1-2 to Module:ISO 639 name/testcases/ISO 639-1, and removed ISO 639-2, -3 codes from that.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 15:22, 26 August 2020 (UTC)