User talk:Tangverse

Hello, there!

Previous edits

How about Year 0? It takes no time at all to learn, as Tangverse says above, let's give people some credit. I think up a new dating system and you follow what I say? OK? It's easy. Ergo, you have to do it. Let's all go for Year 0. We're not resistant to new information. Twat — Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.160.61.222 (talk) 19:45, 15 April 2012 (UTC)

Grateful Dead album articles

@Mudwater:Next release is another breakout vinyl LP from 30 Trips Box : 4/25/77 (with fantastic cover art!). http://www.recordstoreday.com/SpecialRelease/8343 .

Tried out the sandbox feature for Bear's Choice new section so you can feedback IYL. —Tangverse ^(talk) 14:25, 23 March 2016 (UTC)

Looks good to me. P.S. I did get the notification for your previous post, when you used the {{Re}} template. — Mudwater ^(Talk) 23:53, 23 March 2016 (UTC)

Notes in Grateful Dead album articles

Greetings, Tangverse! You sometimes add notes to Grateful Dead album articles, for songs in the tracks listings, indicating where else they were released and other information. Thanks for that, I think it enhances those articles. But, I just figured out that the way you're doing it can cause an issue with the footnote numbering. The way you're doing it, the footnote numbers in the article that follow the track listing notes skip a number for each note, and then they don't correspond to the footnote numbers in the References section. For example, take a look at this version of "From the Mars Hotel". That has three footnotes that are after the track listing notes. In the article, the footnote numbers are 32, 33, and 34. But those correspond to the footnotes in the References section that are numbered 29, 30, and 31. (Try clicking on one of them and you'll see.) Apparently this problem can be avoided by adding the track listing notes with different markup. Instead of using "group=lower-alpha" tags, you can use the "efn" template, and instead of "reflist" use "notelist". That's explained at Help:Footnotes#Footnotes: predefined groups. It took me a while to figure out what they're talking about, but if you look at this diff, I've changed the markup to keep the same notes, with the same appearance, but fix the footnote numbering issue. So, I suggest using the "efn" template and "notelist" going forward. Also, feel free to go back and adjust existing ones, if you want to. I might do some more of that if I get a chance. Thanks! — Mudwater ^(Talk) 00:55, 18 November 2016 (UTC)

ref group=lower-alpha name=
vs
efn|name=
Yup, I see it! Impressive catch. Whew (arcana find)!
I'm wondering if this "GROUP=" code was demarcated at some point by a wiki revision? Because I took that code from another music page - most likely in the Dead group - and it's been around a long time. But given that I have come across it on other pages as well, either lots of people are using it incorrectly OR there was a change, because now it seems like there isn't a case where it DOES work (or what it IS used for). I'm not sure, yet, but if the problem is that big, a tool/script may need creation. It appears to be the correct code if you look at Template:Ref, but I see no mention of a cascading issue for other REFs caused by GROUPS. My guess is that Explanatory Foot Note is a superseding tag.

It would be the REF tag that causes the problem (and/or REFLIST), and anyway the EFN tag is cleaner (cleaner code rule-of-thumb being better). The GROUP tag should effect only the group, but the REF tags are still referring to the REF-call, in the bottom section. I'll start on revisions as I can. Tangverse (talk) 04:09, 18 November 2016 (UTC)

The code I used would seem to be allowed according to Ref-nesting help pages (e.g. Help:Footnotes#Footnotes:_groups, https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Template:Reflist#List-defined_references, and a couple others); as long as a particular nested REF section has a GROUP name, then the REFLIST at the bottom of the page shouldn't be able to "see" any notes for which it doesn't know the GROUP NAME. Nonetheless, it IS numbering them, and I couldn't find a tag that makes it stop, so it's a mystery. Anyway, note that there isn't a problem on any of the pages I've looked at where there are no more REFs below the Track Listing. The code works on a page like that. These are probably most of them (of the ones I edited). So there's that. - Tangverse (talk) 06:31, 18 November 2016 (UTC)

You're right, the behavior of the ref group tags might have changed. And you're also right about a lot of articles not having any footnotes after the track listing section. Anyway, thanks again. — Mudwater ^(Talk) 11:44, 18 November 2016 (UTC)

ArbCom Elections 2016: Voting now open!

Hello, Tangverse. Voting in the 2016 Arbitration Committee elections is open from Monday, 00:00, 21 November through Sunday, 23:59, 4 December to all unblocked users who have registered an account before Wednesday, 00:00, 28 October 2016 and have made at least 150 mainspace edits before Sunday, 00:00, 1 November 2016.

The Arbitration Committee is the panel of editors responsible for conducting the Wikipedia arbitration process. It has the authority to impose binding solutions to disputes between editors, primarily for serious conduct disputes the community has been unable to resolve. This includes the authority to impose site bans, topic bans, editing restrictions, and other measures needed to maintain our editing environment. The arbitration policy describes the Committee's roles and responsibilities in greater detail.

If you wish to participate in the 2016 election, please review the candidates' statements and submit your choices on the voting page. MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 22:08, 21 November 2016 (UTC)

Edits

Mudwater (talk · contribs) > As per the rewrite of Weir Here, Bear's Choice, Without a Net, etc. (thank you for previewing those for me). Happy to discuss the edits/rationale:
Also rolled back an edit on Grateful_Dead_(album). "Extant" is grammatically correct. On the same page I had written "was their best seller at the time" in the intro. For the sake of encyclopedic brevity, I provided too little and it was rightly edited. It should have said something like "remained their best-seller until overtaken by Skeletons from the Closet". Will add later or you can if you like.

On Aoxomoxoa, might be better to save the more examined details for the body of the text. If you check my sand, these are the new intro and main text-body sections, including more REFs, terminology links, quotes, and expanded recording/release info + these changes:

• "...first album the band recorded in or near their hometown of San Francisco."
  

Parts of previous albums were recorded there. The band had moved to Marin by this time.

• "It is the first studio release to include pianist Tom Constanten as a permanent member."
  

He was temporary, not permanent; Kreutzmann says he was never a real member.

• "It was also the first to have lyricist Robert Hunter as a full-time contributor to the band, thus initiating the Jerry Garcia/Robert Hunter songwriting partnership."
  

It was initiated with Alligator and Dark Star, prior to this album

• "The artwork around the bottom edge of the album cover depicts several phallic representations."
  

Kind of a stretch, those are mushrooms - part of the theme of rebirth and cycle of life. And there's much more to it. - Tangverse (talk) 08:47, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

Thanks for the message. These points make sense to me. Although it might be best just to call TC a "member" of the band. I think I'll have time to actually read through the sandbox version in the next few days. I can either edit that directly, with proposed changes, or leave notes here. —  Mudwater ^(Talk) 11:12, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

Agreed. I had just gone from:

"It is the first studio release to include pianist Tom Constanten as a permanent member."

to:

"It is the only studio release to include pianist Tom Constanten as an official member (he had contributed to the previous album and played live with the band from November 1968 to January 1970)."

for more detailed information (while keeping it clear/concise)

and

"thus initiating the Jerry Garcia/Robert Hunter songwriting partnership"

was adjusted to

"thus cementing the Jerry Garcia/Robert Hunter songwriting partnership"

etc. Otherwise, no pre-existing info has been changed/removed - just grouped into distinct sections.

Also, after you helped with Bear's Choice, a bot came by and removed the added illustrations, because it turns out you have to write a new license for each usage. It's just commented-out in the code. So you can write the fair-use form if you like or I'll get to it eventually.
-  Tangverse (talk) 06:01, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

Yeah, the Aoxomoxoa stuff in the sandbox looks really good. I might make a few minor edits, but I suggest you don't worry about that. I'd say publish it now, and let other editors "have at it". Probably it'll end up staying about the same though. — Mudwater ^(Talk) 15:01, 11 December 2016 (UTC)

Wow, thanks. Live/Dead also completed.

Tangverse (talk) 11:07, 12 December 2016 (UTC)

Mudwater (talk · contribs) > For Workingman's Dead rewrite.
Along with adding new info/REFs and dividing body into two category headings, these edits & rationale>>

• "Besides the weight of their debt in producing their previous album, Aoxomoxoa..."
  

The studio album ended up being amortized by Live/Dead (it sold better and had been cheaper to make), so it may not be accurate to describe it this way with certainty, especially since their books were in disarray.

• "Additionally, their manager Lenny Hart (father of drummer Mickey Hart) skipping town with a sizable chunk of the band's wealth."
  

The discovery of the extent of Lenny Hart's malfeasance happened in March or April when Sam Cutler went over the books, according to several of the books/researchers, with questions first occurring by Ramrod when they returned from the late Jan shows (Workingman's being recorded in Feb with mixing March 9-16). Recollections vary by a few weeks on when he skipped town (probably April), so I would hesitate to state this with encyclopedic authority on the Workingman's page. Will move it to American Beauty page.

• "Casey Jones was also released as a single, but did not chart in the U.S."
  

This has been repeated in some stray discographies (with no REFs/Images) but isn't accurate. Struck.

• "Garcia has commented that much of the sound of the album comes both from his pairing...commented Garcia."
  

note redundancy

• "which could have possibly resulted in jail time"
  

Sentence structure: multiple modals

• "Garcia noted that "let's do it all in three weeks and get it the hell out of the way""
  

Mistaken adjective

• "According to the 1992 Dead oral history, Aces Back to Back"
  

Change dead link to REF
    - Tangverse (talk) 07:01, 16 December 2016 (UTC)

Hello. I just saw this. I didn't get "pinged" because for the notification to work, you have to link to my user name ("ping" me) and sign the post with four tildes in the same edit. But anyway, this all sounds pretty good to me. I'm not sure about the mistaken adjective part, what does that mean? Although if it's a direct quote of someone, you'd generally want to leave the quote as-is. Also I'm not too sure how much Lenny Hart running away with a lot of their money caused them to record Workingman's Dead and American Beauty. There might have been a relationship but in my view that shouldn't be overstated. Anyway, a lot of your recent edits have improved the articles and have been supported by the added references, so that's all good. — Mudwater ^(Talk) 06:25, 20 December 2016 (UTC)

Mudwater (talk · contribs) > Happy to expatiate; thanx for the collaboration. Not clear on why WIKI pinged you earlier in this convo-section when I didn't add your user-name-brackets. Hmmm, is it because I started a new indent?

• mistaken adjective>
  

>Garcia noted that "let's do it all in three weeks and get it the hell out of the way".<

"Noted" probably isn't the best adjective to use for somebody speaking at the time in current tense. It may have been mistaken for "suggested" or "proposed"; or "noted that he had said".

• Not that Lenny caused them to record the '70 albums; it'a timing question (although he did re-sign them to a Warner Bros contract without their knowledge and sent them on a furious road schedule, the 2 albums likely would have resulted either way). The issue is> the current article states that the band was "dealing with the stress of their manager Lenny Hart skipping town with a sizable chunk of the band's wealth". But the album was recorded when they returned from the tour (in Feb '70 - before Lenny left) to find that the deal with Chet Helms/Family Dog fell through when Lenny refused to show anybody the books, and Ramrod then raised suspicions (c.f. relative sections of Searching for the Sound/Lesh; Deal/Kreutzmann & Long Strange Trip/McNally). One red flag too many, they hired Sam Cutler away from the Stones and when he got ahold of the books and began siding with Ramrod, Lenny took off - but that was after Workingman's was in the can (McNally puts the event in mid-March though they didn't know he was gone for sure until it became obvious). The timeline was just a bit questionable for encyclopedic certainty - but rather than strike the info that another user has added in good faith, it is logical enough to split the relative part off and add it to the American Beauty page (since that was recorded in August, after they knew that Lenny had indeed split with their cabbage).
  

Tangverse (talk) 06:19, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

AmerBeaut

Mudwater (talk · contribs) > New edits for American Beauty page so you can overlook, and also to make the changes easier for you to see. Improve readability, sharpen factuality, increase the data/knowledge, fix a few grammatical errors; while remaining concise/encyclopedic.

• Fix Footnote codes/footnote numbering issue
• "It continued with the folk rock and country music style as on their previous album Workingman's Dead, which was released earlier in the year."
  

Simplify grammar>Adverb doesn't correctly modify object. Let's try:
"The album continued the folk rock and country music style of their previous album, Workingman's Dead, released earlier in the year."

• The songs within the album contain lyrics written by Robert Hunter and also sees Jerry Garcia play pedal steel guitar in place of lead guitar.
  

"within the album" - is unnecessary; it's already the page topic.  "the songs...also sees" - is grammatically incorrect (double plurals).   "Jerry Garcia play pedal steel guitar in place of lead guitar" - on half the songs, yes, but as written, implies the entirety.   "The songs contain lyrics written by Robert Hunter" - Hunter had written the entirety for the previous album but that's not the case on Beauty, with lyrics also by Lesh, Weir, McKernan. +This info might be better-placed in the text body

• "Upon release, American Beauty entered the Billboard 200 chart and ultimately peaked at number 13 on the chart."
  

Chart is stated twice

• Add new paragraph to introduce main section; split 2nd paragraph for better scanning; divide main section into two, using common headings
• Add quote box for Hunter quote that adds good info but doesn't fit well in text body
• Move passage re:Lenny Hart from Workingman's Page
• Explain who is "Stephen Barncard", in a few words
• "the magnetism of the scene at Wally Heider's recording studio made it a lot easier for me to deal with Dad's loss"
  

Quote needed explanatory expansion

• "also contributed piano to one track"
  

Change to - "also contributed piano to Candyman. Lagin subsequently sat in with the band on occasion from 1970 to 1974".

• Add info to new sections
• Combine Reception and Legacy sections/remove repeated text
• Track listing has "American Beauty radio promo" followed by "American Beauty Promo is a radio commercial promoting the release of this album." - First statement provides all of the info sufficiently

Tangverse (talk) 12:17, 24 December 2016 (UTC)

That all makes sense to me, and the rewrite in the sandbox looks really nice. I'd say go for it. Thanks for your work on these articles, improving them is a worthwhile endeavor. P.S. Re the lead sentence, I would favor, "American Beauty is an album by the rock band the Grateful Dead". But a lot of editors think it's better to say something like it's their fifth studio album, or their sixth album, so no biggie. For myself, after the first two or three albums I sort of lose interest in which number it was. And for several reasons I think the distinction between studio and live albums is somewhat overblown, especially for a band like the Dead. Another interesting point is that Anthem of the Sun is a studio album *and* a live album at the same time -- so does it count as a studio album, a live album or both? I mean, there are a bunch of albums -- Wheels of Fire, Eat a Peach, etc. -- that contain both studio and live tracks, but with Anthem the live and studio material has been literally blended together. Anyway, I digress! — Mudwater ^(Talk) 19:09, 25 December 2016 (UTC)

Mudwater (talk · contribs) - Agreed. It does seem better encyclopedic form (to use the simpler "American Beauty is an album by the rock band the Grateful Dead").  -  Tangverse (talk) 14:04, 27 December 2016 (UTC)

Mudwater (talk · contribs) - On Skull Fuck, I didn't change the sentence:

"Grateful Dead is the seventh album by the Grateful Dead, released in October 1971 on Warner Bros. Records, catalogue 2WS-1935."

because, though I agree about the numbering, I'm not keen on listing the catalog number in the opening statement - maybe later in the body will scan better. So I left it to see what you think rather than change them both.  -   Tangverse (talk) 06:35, 28 December 2016 (UTC)

Moving the catalog number out of the lead to somewhere else in the article sounds good to me. As for it being their seventh album, or whatever number, most of the time when I see those I just leave them in. It's not like it's bad or anything. (Although I did revert this recent change.) — Mudwater ^(Talk) 16:40, 28 December 2016 (UTC)

Not bad in general, but, in this case, does one include the two Sunflower-label releases? We should probably change it. Agreed, with the CREAM reversion. More accurate.   -   Tangverse (talk) 00:16, 29 December 2016 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you mean about Vintage Dead and Historic Dead. Do you mean that if you count those, Skull and Roses isn't their seventh album after all? That's another beef I have with enumerating the albums, sometimes the situation is more ambiguous than one might think. You could still argue that Skull and Roses was their seventh "mainline" release, I guess. Yes, life sure is messy sometimes.... — Mudwater ^(Talk) 00:25, 29 December 2016 (UTC)

Yup, that's what I meant. When it's ambiguous like that, then it's probably not opening-statement-ready for the WIKI venue. You can assume that a "new" reader might be confused. - Tangverse (talk) 00:32, 29 December 2016 (UTC)

Anthem edits

Mudwater (talk · contribs) - To make them easier to see; list of edits to Anthem of the Sun.

• Divide into same two sections as other album pages
• Change first sentence as per live/studio
• "The band had entered the American Studios in North Hollywood with the same producer, David Hassinger, as their eponymous debut album, in November 1967. However, the Dead were determined to make a more complicated recorded work than their debut release, as well as attempt to translate their live sound into the studio. The band and Hassinger then changed locations to New York City in December of that year, where they found themselves going through two other studios, Century Sound and Olmstead Studios (both "highly regarded eight-track studios")."

condensed to>
The band entered American Studios in Los Angeles in November 1967 with David Hassinger, the producer of their eponymous debut album. However, determined to make a more complicated recorded work than their debut release as well as attempt to translate their live sound into the studio, the band and Hassinger changed locations to New York City. By December they had gone through two other studios, Century Sound and Olmstead Studios (both "highly regarded eight-track studios")

• The band then recruited their soundman, Dan Healy, to assist them in the studio for the rest of the album and they headed back to San Francisco's Coast Recorders studio. In between the Los Angeles and New York sessions, the band began playing live dates.

condensed to>
Returning to San Francisco's Coast Recorders, the band recruited their soundman, Dan Healy, to help produce. In between studio sessions, the band also began recording their live dates.

• Adding to the psychedelic madness on the album was Tom Constanten, a friend of bassist Phil Lesh who joined the band in the studio to provide piano and prepared piano and "electronic tape" effects (influenced by John Cage) tracks.

"tracks" struck

• Constanten made it so that the piano pieces seemed like three gamelan orchestras were playing all at once. He even went so far as to use a gyroscope set spinning on the piano soundboard. All in all, the album turned out as psychedelic as intended. The band used a large assortment of instruments in the studio to augment the live tracks that were the base of each song, including kazoos, crotales, a harpsichord, timpani, guiro, and a trumpet.

to>
Constanten developed piano pieces that sounded like three gamelan orchestras playing at once and created effects by setting a spinning gyroscope on the piano soundboard. Likewise, the rest of the band used a large assortment of instruments in the studio to augment the live tracks that were the base of each song, including kazoos, crotales, harpsichord, timpani, trumpet, and a guiro.

• Robert Hunter, a longtime friend and then-future songwriting collaborator of Jerry Garcia, made his first lyrical contributions to the band, providing Lesh and Pigpen with the words to "Alligator".

cumbersome and not really accurate; changed to>
Jerry Garcia's longtime friend and songwriting partner, Robert Hunter, had made his first lyrical contributions to the band the previous year for "Dark Star". He then added words to the Lesh/Pigpen composition "Alligator", on this album.

• The "makes it difficult to tell where many of the live excerpts used" section clarified and moved under LOCATIONS heading with rest of the subject
    -   Tangverse (talk) 03:39, 29 December 2016 (UTC)

Mudwater (talk · contribs) - The reason "Shrine Auditorium" is listed as "Shrine Exposition" (but linked to correct page) is because this section is a list of credits as they appear on the album cover. I linked "Quodlibet" as it may be helpful, but WIKIs history/revision format is hard to use and I can't tell if that's already been an issue or something? Agreed about "Two from the Vault" appearing twice in error. However, in keeping with the format, I added it back but differently, as in the above sentences (see if that makes sense). I think we've really shaped this page up if I do say so. Thank you for copy editing - great job! - Tangverse (talk) 06:26, 2 January 2017 (UTC)

That all sounds good to me. Thanks. "P.S." About those   (non-breaking space) characters: Those should immediately follow, and immediately precede, text characters. For example, September 1967 – March 1968 will result in "September 1967 – March 1968" but will ensure that there is no line break after the "1967" and before the "–". So the "March 1968" might start the next line, but the "–" won't start the next line, it'll always be after the "1967". Looking at Anthem of the Sun, the non-breaking space in things like August 23, 1968   (see also xxx) won't do anything, because the line can break on the space in front of it. Not a big deal, but I'd vote for removing those and letting the "see also" start on the next line if that's how it works out. (In general I'm not a big fan of   but most of the time I just leave them as-is if they're there already.) — Mudwater ^(Talk) 15:08, 2 January 2017 (UTC)

Ha! I should know better than to leave a line breaking space. Thanx for reminding. Tangverse (talk) 14:22, 3 January 2017 (UTC)

Europe '72

Mudwater (talk · contribs) - List of E72 edits. This page has gotten a little loose over time.

• Needs divided into std sections
• "By 1972, the Grateful Dead had become an established act, with fans attending multiple gigs in a tour in order to catch the unique performances the band delivered"

Not convinced this really gives any specific info about this album (even if I maybe wrote it?). It's a leftover from a skimpier legacy page

• "while pianist Keith Godchaux was recruited in September to replace founding member Ron "Pigpen" McKernan, who had been hospitalised with hepatitis"

He didn't actually replace him until after the E72 tour, Pig's last. "Hospitalised" uses Brit spelling, which is okay but I'll change it anyway. The books say it was bleeding ulcers (at which point they discovered liver disease) and not hepatitis (that diagnosis came after E72).

• "Many of the new songs were not officially released in studio form, though they did appear on solo albums"

Only "One More Saturday Night"; but it was also released as a single under the group name

• "Despite the band being out of the country, Europe '72 showcased the Dead's mixture of American bluegrass, folk, and country influences, and provided the culmination to the band's early 1970s sound."

This sentence sets weirdly. I can't think of a good way to rewrite it either. Why wouldn't they play their normal set, "despite" touring Europe? How is this a culmination? Why aren't the '70 acoustic sets the culmination and this more of a back-to-normal? Kreutzmann - "Playing American folk songs in Europe was less exciting to us than the idea of test driving our old Acid Test vehicles in front of European audiences".  Struck?

• " "Cumberland Blues" and "Tennessee Jed" were firmly rooted in their regional feeling."

I'm not sure the meaning can be parsed as written. Maybe "firmly rooted with regional imagery and sentiment"?

• " "Truckin'", which had recently become the band's first hit song"

I don't think "hit" can be defined in such a way for WIKI purposes

• "start-stop-restart segue of "China Cat Sunflower" into "I Know You Rider" "

This isn't really an example of what we call stop/start in music, and certainly not in the segue jam (Jerry's beginning lead line could be termed "loping" but either way the description ignores that Weir plays a contrapuntal)

• "The group retired several songs he sung lead on"

Proper grammar would be>
"Several songs on which he sang lead were retired"

• "and he quit the band after one further gig"

Pigpen never quit the band, he just quit touring. The band, being youthfully innocent as to his medical situation, assumed he would recover (c.f. Lesh, Kreutzmann, McNally). e.g. Phil's quote: "It was agreed that Pig would rejoin the band when he felt up to it."

• "varispeed" links to the Pitch Shift page. I may have made this mistake (or somebody else changed it)! In the industry, pitch shift (which digitally shifts one track or vocal) is a separate application from Varispeed, which speeds up the entire recording and not just one vocal track. It got the name "varispeed" after a brand of motor and the name stuck, with a sped version at the plant called a "Varispeed master". So, it is best linked to Pitch Control (until there is a page for varispeed).
• "Unadulterated multitrack recordings of the performances used for the album are no longer available (because they were simply snipped from the multitrack concert tapes whereupon the band overdubbed directly onto them, destroying the originals) but, for example..."

Long-ass sentence ripe for condensing

• "As a hedge against the costs of the nearly two-month trip, the Dead’s label, Warner Bros., paid for the band to travel with a 16-track recorder to capture the entire tour. In early 2011, dead.net announced that all 22 shows from the tour would be released."

Probably out of place, the way it jumps. Who is "dead.net"? Rewrite.

• "Europe '72 was later reissued as a two-disc CD in 1990."

"later" struck

• Artwork and packaging
  needs rewrite/moved to new section
• disc 10/11
  potentially quite confusing to somebody unfamiliar with the box set numbering
• "The actual dates for most of the tracks have been determined as follows"

All track dates are known.
  -   Tangverse (talk) 02:59, 29 December 2016 (UTC)

Very nice. You seem to be on some kind of Dead album article hot streak. I suggest you proceed accordingly, I can always touch things up later. — Mudwater ^(Talk) 00:08, 2 January 2017 (UTC)

Mudwater (talk · contribs). Thanx. While doing the fixes of the errant EFN Code, I figured I'd make the effort (and since I have noted discrepancies with the first-hand accounts). I think the early albums are "core" albums of the topic group on WIKI (they have the highest page visitation), and more likely to have the input of many editors/opinions/reversions; makes sense to me to notify the Group-pages El Hefe and lay out the rationale in a way that's actually scannable. The TALK pages, I think, are limited for this. Thanx for input and taking the time.   -   Tangverse (talk) 03:39, 2 January 2017 (UTC)

As for new edit to American Beauty. As you might know, this is a style-guide issue known as "spaceless em-dashes". I see these on WIKI, and style guide allows both spaced and spaceless. Personally, I dislike spaceless em-dashes because the reader has to stop and decide if it's a hypen combining two words or an em-dash setting aside a phrase (and they appear different on different devices). I won't revert but I think it looks poor (it's not used by mags/newspapers but I can't find a definitive answer on WIKI style guides). - Tangverse (talk) 06:00, 2 January 2017 (UTC)

I'm looking at MOS:DASH, and either it's been changed, or else I misread it some time ago. It says, "Dashes are often used to mark divisions within a sentence... There are two options. Use either unspaced em dashes or spaced en dashes consistently in an article." I was thinking that em dashes and not en dashes should be used for this purpose. And I too don't like unspaced em dashes, so I've been using spaced em dashes. I guess I'll switch to using spaced en dashes instead. Thanks for pointing that out. Looking at American Beauty, it currently uses a mix of unspaced em dashes and spaced en dashes. I'll defer to your preference on what to do about that, if anything. — Mudwater ^(Talk) 15:27, 2 January 2017 (UTC)

Thanks for your updates to Europe '72. I might do some light copy editing when I get a chance, like I did for the last two articles. But here's a question for you. It says, "Because recordings of the songs were cut from the live, multitrack tapes and overdubbed directly, unadulterated originals of many of the performances do not exist." I'd heard that also, I forget where. But, is that accurate? And if yes, what did they use for those songs in Europe '72: The Complete Recordings? I'd heard that the mega-box set was created using all the original soundboards, but that seems to contradict the first statement. — Mudwater ^(Talk) 15:34, 2 January 2017 (UTC)

Mudwater (talk · contribs). Right, if you look at most recent Amer Beauty edits - somebody or some bot comes through and hyphenates all spaced em/en dashes. I use the style guides I've had on my desk for years unless WIKI has a preference. But it seems en-dashes all become edited to spaceless. Not a big deal, but I didn't revert because I didn't know the WIKIrule. After reading the MOS:DASH, the {{spaced ndash}} template looks like the one to use. Maybe you know where to find this one:

On the edits for Bear's Choice page. It was a nice addition to the page to discuss the 1st appearance of the dancing bears and lightning skull on the artwork. The L-skull appears in the cover image (albeit small) and can be referenced via text. For that reason /File:GDDancingBears.jpg was added (can't show it here). A bot then told me it needed a non-free use content declaration so it can be used on an additional page (original use here: Grateful_Dead#Artwork). Any idea which form this is? Can't seem to find what they're talking about - it's certainly not the original-upload form. - Tangverse (talk) 15:37, 2 January 2017 (UTC)

Mudwater (talk · contribs) 2nd convo (edited post). "Soundboards" are 2-track recordings that you get by tapping the L & R Outs at the board. E72-Complete is a 16-track from the original feeds that's been mixed down. But, for example; on E72Complete 5-3-72 China>Rider has the non-overdubbed China Cat but the overdubbed (orig E72) version of Rider. Same date, E72-Complete has the overdubbed version of Jack Straw > Jeff Norman used the tape that had been overdubbed directly, because that's all that exists (they decided not to use any Betty two-track, unmixable boards). On the box version's mix, you can hear Weir's original vox ghosting (Gotta go to Tulsa first train). Another example is 5/10 Amsterdam, source of E72 He's Gone. The E72-original is a fast master - a halftone at least (I measured it once but it was along time ago). Because the 16-track was overdubbed onto in California, for E72-Complete Norman just slowed the varispeed master back to concert pitch (for that show, the Betty 2-track is available for comparison). They assembled their favorite cuts (enough for a triple-LP), made a work reel, then brought the band in to quickly dub directly onto the work reel, and sent it directly to mastering, but without copying the 16-tracks first (except for Brown Eyed Women 4/14 somehow - hmmm, either Norman flew in a patched vocal or there was an extra vox track available). Ergo, it's the ones used for orig E72 that are now affected on E72Complete. You would do this if you want to work cheaper, faster, want to make the label happy, and don't think that decades in the future people will care about gaps in the reels of a completed album! Big breakdown here: http://deadessays.blogspot.com/2014/01/the-europe-72-overdubs-guest-post.html - Tangverse (talk) 16:05, 2 January 2017 (UTC)

Wow, pretty crazy. Thanks for the info! — Mudwater ^(Talk) 16:30, 2 January 2017 (UTC)

Fair Use Images

(Mudwater post moved to new subject heading for easier threading)> I think the concept is that for a fair use image like the dancing bears logo, there has to be a separate fair use rationale for each article that includes the image. According to this theory, you could go to the image page and add a second {{Non-free use rationale logo}} template that's a lot like the one that's there already, but specifying the name of the second article, i.e. "History of the Grateful Dead, Volume One (Bear's Choice)". — Mudwater ^(Talk) 19:28, 2 January 2017 (UTC)

Mudwater (talk · contribs). That was my first guess but do you just edit the image page? I was looking for a link or button but the link is to "upload a NEW version". I've read WP:REUSE (and a couple other help pages) but there isn't enough info. Anyway, thanks, I'll experiment. - Tangverse (talk) 05:04, 3 January 2017 (UTC)

Yes, you just edit the page for the image -- so click on the Edit tab near the upper right, as usual. While you're editing the page, you won't see the image itself, but don't let that throw you off, just proceed as normal. (If you mess it up, you can always undo your change, as with any edit.) — Mudwater ^(Talk) 06:50, 3 January 2017 (UTC)

Thank you. Found it here: Template:Non-free_media_data ("designed to be used in conjunction with one or more instances of the Non-free media rationale")  —  Tangverse (talk) 06:58, 11 January 2017 (UTC)

Bears' Choice

Mudwater (talk · contribs) - post to make Bear's Choice edits clearer.

• add brief info (venue, promoter, reason for release, quote/REF)
• make sections and separate sentences into relevant topics
• use std album (non-numbering) statement in intro
• use original track timings
• separate bonus tracks in NOTES
• fix image that was commented out by BOT (for which I received a "fix it" message)
• "The mournful "Black Peter" received the most amount of album oriented rock radio airplay"
  

Highly doubt it received AOR play (maybe on college-station Dead-specific blocks in a much later era). Some FM in the 70s played Truckin and Casey Jones - occasionally, maybe the odd Ripple. Struck.

• simplified several statements such as "interpretation of one 1950s rock and roll number by the Everly Brothers" (since all of the songs are covers from same or specific decades). And "underground chemist turned Dead sound man" to just sound man - it would have needed hyphenation anyway
  — Tangverse (talk) 08:32, 11 January 2017 (UTC)

Wake of the Flood

Mudwater (talk · contribs) - edits & rationale for Wake of the Flood.

• use std non-numbering album format in intro
• "recorded between August 4–15, 1973, and originally released on October 15, 1973" - too specific for intro, moved to new section
• "makes an appearance" - condensed to "appears"
• "Upon its October 1973 release, the album actually fared" - condensed to "the release fared"
• "none of the band's singles were able to reach the national charts" - Clarify. Touch of Grey did; just none from this album
• "The remastered version was then released separately on CD on March 7, 2006, by Rhino Records." - I sometimes slightly rewrite statements like this because there are many remastered versions. You remaster each time you do a new vinyl run or change companies (like to Rhino) or transfer to cassette, etc.
• Eyes of the World (live) - add "edited version"; 1:44 cut plus early fade
• "Five compositions, and part of a sixth, had been in the live rotation for between 6 and 14 months. The Prelude section of this piece had been in the live rotation for 6 shows in 1972-3." - Actually, more than that. Bobby had been playing WRS Prelude in fits and starts since 3/72.
• "after fulfilling their nine-disc contract with Warner Bros. Records." - It was nine titles and up to 12 discs. Struck/simplified.
• "The band sought to pinpoint the style of their live performances, and replicate it as precisely as possible for the album." - There's no source for this statement and it sounds out of character. If they wanted to precisely pinpoint, they would have just tracked it as an ensemble, live in-studio. Billy says "Bobby’s Weather Report Suite is also on there, which was always more fun to play live than the studio version may indicate. Eyes had already become a big jam so to replicate it would take up a whole side". Struck.
• "released on CD first in 1995" - should be "First released on CD in 1988"
• "recorded and mixed the tracks on 24-track analog at the Lacquer Channel" - Nope; recorded at the Record Plant. Lacquer Channel was a mastering and stamping operation
• a few typos
• briefly explain who is Tom Flye
• "Krieg Wunderlich completed the final mastering from the master tapes in Mobile Fidelity Sound Lab in Sebastopol, California." - This refers only to a specific edition not mentioned elsewhere in the article (+ there is no "final" mastering per se - see above). Struck.
• move statements to the new headings/sections
• "With that, the band had a unique perspective." - Looks like a stranded, legacy sentence. Struck
• "This song was never performed live before the album was recorded, and was only performed live six times" - rewritten without the repetition
• "backed by black framing" - linguistic clash (oxymoron)
• "as part of the Beyond Description 12-CD box" - condensed because initial release was 13 discs
• Add info/quotes/REFS
  - Tangverse (talk) 01:07, 14 January 2017 (UTC)

You're on a hot streak, for sure. My plan is to go back and copy edit your article updates, like I did with American Beauty and Anthem of the Sun. But I'm not sure when I'll get to that. Anyway, thanks again for your work on these articles. — Mudwater ^(Talk) 01:33, 14 January 2017 (UTC)

Thanx for help. I actually worked on this page (and a couple more) for the past year but hadn't found the time to finish. This one was the most intensive since Weir Here. - Tangverse (talk) 01:45, 14 January 2017 (UTC)

Hello. Hey, check out this page on dead.net, written by Blair Jackson, that talks about Rick Griffin. It has an interesting paragraph about the cover art for Wake of the Flood. Perhaps this can be summarized for the article. And also, here's a page on Tumblr that shows Griffin's original sketch for the front cover. That probably can't be used in the article, but it's kinda cool anyway. I didn't figure this stuff out myself, a friend of mine happened to point it out to me recently. Anyway, feel free to let me know what you think. "P.S." Were you aware of the skull in the cloud? Rotate the album cover counterclockwise 90 degrees to see it. — Mudwater ^(Talk) 23:20, 16 January 2017 (UTC)

(So..."Outdent" is what's used - thanx). The Grim Reaper/cloud image - yes, I had already added this to the page; it's under the "Release" section, end of first paragraph. Aware - yes; have always owned the original vinyl, where it's more obvious than, say CD. It's both part of the iconography that developed from the band name and also, in a broader sense (and although Griffin may have been inspired by eschatology), a cultural personification of death (to where I linked the description). Original sketch - probably can't use it, true. But that level of detail might require its own page anyway. Dead.net - looked at that info awhile back but will look again; hoping to incorporate more info to Without a Net page. Thank you for reminding.   -   Tangverse (talk) 01:23, 17 January 2017 (UTC)

Mudwater (talk · contribs) - "The Grim Reaper is a skeleton wearing a hooded robe, and wielding a scythe -- an agricultural implement used for reaping." - Agreed, with your argument. Progress! To some extent any hooded skull is a personification of death, as per the quote (though "reaping" is the theme, "grim reaper" may be a leap in that it would probably be a more-specific image). So how about "hooded skull" and retaining the link? Also, Revelation is not pluralized. - Tangverse (talk) 10:01, 21 January 2017 (UTC)

To me it looks like a skull without a hood, that's inside, or part of, the cloud. I wonder if there's a reference for this somewhere, aside from internet discussion forums. Another interesting thing is that the man on the cover, who's harvesting wheat I believe, is himself suggestive of the Grim Reaper -- intentionally so, I presume. He's wearing a hooded robe, and holding -- what do you call that thing? A hand scythe? And about the back cover, with the crow and the wheat -- later versions have the songs listed, you say? On the LP, not the CD? I didn't know that. They're not shown here, but I guess that's the first version of the cover. P.S. Good catch on "Revelation". — Mudwater ^(Talk) 11:50, 21 January 2017 (UTC)

Take a look at this image on a large-enough monitor and see what you think re: hood (esp. around chin and neck). It's fairly evident, I think, on an original copy (vinyl record). "suggestive of the Grim Reaper" - that does seem to be the intent to some extent: Grateful Dead>reaping>grim reaper (though fwiw, perhaps getting beyond the scope of the page). Scythe: yes ("a tool used for cutting crops such as grass or wheat"). The wheat are "stalks". Back cover - yes, I have two original copies on GD records and one pressing has song titles as shown here. On the blank/mistake covers, they added a shrinkwrap sticker with the info. They are both original editions but likely from two different factories. Back then it was more efficient to send a reel/plates and the artwork to both a west coast and east coast plant, or foreign markets, who would master, press and print, rather than ship boxes of completed product. That's why people seek out specific mastering/printings/pressings of, say Led Zeppelin II from a preferred plant. Revelation - I was aware of the Griffin quotation but didn't incorporate it in the text - second guessing myself about adding too much info. But I think what you added looks great; if it were me I might just say "quote from Revelation" with link to the book, rather than "a verse from the New Testament, Revelation 20:13", which could be construed as proselytism by some. Your call.   —   Tangverse (talk) 12:08, 21 January 2017 (UTC)

That's very interesting about album covers having been produced by more than one factory. I didn't realize that. And thanks for the link to the back cover image. I confess that I do have the LP, with a back cover without the songs listed. If I'm remembering correctly, I bought it new and it had a sticker on the back, as you describe, and which I don't have. But it's all a bit hazy at this point! As for saying "quote from Revelation" without specifying the verse, that sounds fine, so I've made that change, here. — Mudwater ^(Talk) 12:41, 21 January 2017 (UTC)

Skeletons

Mudwater (talk · contribs) - edits & rationale for Skeletons from the Closet.

• Create sections and headings to organize info
• Expand page; Add REFs
• "It was first released on LP" - It's not preferable to use "LP/Long Play" in this context as a format placeholder for vinyl/record, when "EP/Extra Play" isn't used this way; and because it wasn't just released as an LP on record, it was simultaneously released on 8-track and cassette. Rewritten
• "The release was a ploy for Warner Bros. Records to cash in on the escalating popularity of the band." - Not really a ploy per se, and not because of escalating popularity, given that their best-sellers were already released. ALL labels monetize their back catalogs, especially if a band has left their roster. Their popularity escalation of the early 70s can't be said to have much to do with an album that didn't go gold for six years, particularly as the band then went on hiatus from live performance months after its release. Further, back catalog albums are "cashed-in" regardless - even when a band is no longer making hit albums or touring (and thereby increasing their popularity). Rewritten.
• Use wiki {{CURRENTYEAR}} format code
• "Four of the tracks were not original Dead album studio recordings" - Three were not. Two were live, one was a Weir track that featured the Dead, so this [and rest of paragraph] is likely confusing to many readers. Rewritten, moved into proper section.
• "Warner Bros. released the album on CD and cassette in 1988 before re-releasing the LP in 1990" - It's been released many times including previously on cassette, so it's probably best to state just the 1st CD release rather than detail a partial list
• explain title
• "designed in 1933 by U.S. inventor and architect Buckminster Fuller" - condensed: reader can follow link for more bio
• expand artwork description and remove code for deleted rear cover image
• Fix links
• Rather than "Originally released on the album", "from" is used across wiki and is much less cumbersome to parse. i.e. "Originally released on the Bob Weir album Ace" can be just "from Ace by Bob Weir"   —   Tangverse (talk) 05:16, 19 January 2017 (UTC)

Mars Hotel

Mudwater (talk · contribs) - edits & rationale for From the Mars Hotel

• "It was the second release under the band's own label, Grateful Dead" - It was the second album by the Grateful Dead, but the fourth release on the label, not counting 8-tracks and cassettes
• "after fulfilling their contract with Warner Bros. Records" - tag-on already covered chronistically on previous album page. Struck
• "during which time they would finish up the film editing of The Grateful Dead Movie." - That was three years later. Garcia didn't finish until after the band had resumed, in 1977.
• expand song history paragraph
• Influence section moved below track listing
• "a rundown, skid row flophouse/SRO located at 192 Fourth Street... eminent domain demolition...Yerba Buena Center Redevelopment." - some of this is extraneous to the album (eminent domain, e.g.). Skid row perhaps not an encyclopedic adjective. Redevelopment not capitalized. Probably don't need two newspaper references to suicides unrelated to the album, in the artwork section. Or five separate REFs for a building's existence. Or three REFs for the existence of a Bowie video. Condensed/made relevant.
• "part of the Yerba Buena Center" - specifically, the address is today's Moscone center. The Yerba Buena Center is a couple blocks over; linked to a more relevant page
• Jean Genie - song title, uses quotes not italics
• "previously occupied by Jack Kerouac" - "occupied" implies a single tenant
• Move artwork description from "Influence" section to "Release" section.
• "Lesh's final lead vocal work for the Dead for over ten years." - briefly explain
• "then-future UK prime minister Tony Blair" - Prime Ministers, like Presidents can always simply be named by their title; condense paragraph
• "Musical group Animal Collective used a sample from the song "Unbroken Chain" for their song..." - condense paragraph
• Fold "Release History" section into main Release section. Simplify.
• Mobile Fidelity mastering was in 1984, not 1980
• use original track timings
• "Wave That Flag" (early version of U.S. Blues)" - description moved from track listing section to text body
• Use commas in track authorship
• List source of bonus tracks for easier scanning
• "When the cover is held upside down and viewed in a mirror, the text reads" - correct terminology is "rotated mirror writing"; link
• Add explanation of rear cover art
• "Recorded at the Automatt" - The album was recorded at CBS Studios, previously Coast Recorders. The Automatt didn't start until 1976, as a sublet in CBS. They took over the entire studio and rechristened as The Automatt in 1978. (see: The Automatt#1976-1978)
• "Ugly Rumors, album cover upside-down in front of a mirror" - not shown with a mirror. Graphic/image terminology is: Reversed, Flopped, and/or Rotated
• Create/write "Recording" section
• Add info to all sections; add quotes; add REFs
    —   Tangverse (talk) 07:51, 21 January 2017 (UTC)

Rocking the Cradle

Mudwater (talk · contribs) - edits & rationale for Cradle

• make sections; add info; add quotes; add REFs
• "This version of the song was previously released on the remastered issue of Shakedown Street." - It's a different version and there have been several remasters. Info moved to track notes.
• "Lesh contacted promoter Bill Graham but found that he was too busy." - extraneous; may be a legacy leftover
• "near Cairo, Egypt" - as one of the world's most famous locales, "Giza, Egypt" (linked) should suffice
• use official song titles as published
• fix cite book REF
• give info on Richard Loren's involvement
• move intro info into appropriate sections
• move track dates section directly under track listing
• "Lesh did not want the band to take any money from Egypt, and asked that proceeds" - in his book Phil says it was Malone's request
• "the Department of Antiquities, the charity preferred by Jehan Sadat" - should be AND; the charity name was Faith & Hope; antiquities was a separate donation
• "Bassist Phil Lesh was instrumental in arranging the concert." - there was a trio at first, then an instrumental team
    —   Tangverse (talk) 15:12, 21 January 2017 (UTC)

BfA

Mudwater (talk · contribs) - edits & rationale for Blues for Allah

• Create sections; expand info; add quotes; add REFs
• "It was the third release" - It was the third GD album but not the third release
• "RIAA certification" - rewrite to make self-explanatory
• Use wiki {{CURRENTYEAR}} format code
• "In Britain, the record was issued on United Artists Records, the band's only release on that label." - All 4 GDR albums were released either in the US or other markets by United Artists Records and/or their subsidiary, Liberty. Rather than single out the UK in the intro, move to release section and make statement more inclusive
• "was only performed a handful of times in 1975 and never played again after that" - redundant; condense
• add original track listings footnote
• mention instrumentals in text rather than track listings
• use std track authorship format
• collate legacy info into sections
• "remastered, expanded, and released as part of the Beyond Description (1973–1989) 12-CD box set" - Can strike "released"
• separate mix of original track listing and current listing
• "The album was released for the first time on CD in 1995" - Should say 1987
    —   Tangverse (talk) 05:39, 28 January 2017 (UTC)

Terrapin

Mudwater (talk · contribs) - edits & rationale for Terrapin Station.

• Make sections; collate info; greatly expand; add quotes; add REFs
• Use non-numbering studio album scheme
• "The album...styles were expressed earlier by progressive art rock groups like Yes and Genesis. This was considered by fans to be a major departure" - Arguably Anthem is more proggy as is Blues for Allah. The key on Terrapin is a new, slick-patina producer/production that added strings and a choir and disco flourishes. Also, arguably, British bands Yes & Genesis wouldn't be reference points
• "while others believe it to be their greatest musical achievement" - will look for a specific quote to REF this before adding it back
• "Horns are also employed extensively to "funk up" their sound." - There are jazz trumpets in Estimated and R&B trumpets in Dancing. Funk, not so sure. Horns are employed specifically to commercialize the sound.; also "funk up" could be more technically stated.
• remove repeated REFs
• fix quote notations & a couple citations
• "anecdotal evidence was that listeners were often confused" - encyclopedia probably not the place for anecdotal assumption as such
• "It is the first Grateful Dead album on Arista Records after releasing other albums on its own Grateful Dead Records" - "can just say first on Arista", which assumes a previous label, and save details for text body
• "According to Dennis McNally, Garcia conceived the idea for the song "Terrapin Station Part One" while driving across the Richmond–San Rafael Bridge." - save for text body; also this info appears many places without needing an audio NPR REF
• "before being re-released in 2000 by BMG International" - random listing; will stick to main points of the dozens of releases
• "released for the first time on CD in 1987 " can just say "released on CD in 1987"
• "in Van Nuys, California" - use name of city/town and not neighborhood or district, for clarity to outsiders
• "CD releases from the 1980s settled this by breaking the song down into individual tracks" - It was always settled, by just looking at the writing credits; also some CDs have random sector boundaries, varying from pressing to pressing. If you check the timings for (a 16:26) Terrapin Part 1, you'll find:
  

4:40 (The 4:20 timing cuts before main Terrapin theme is expressed)

1:54

2:11 - also matches timing on Arista Pop compilation

1:27 ("Transit" begins and ends on the same chord)

0:55 (section with short Hunter lyric and snaky, Arabic guitar figure)

3:00 (drums battle, timing as on Max Weinberg comp)

2:16 (timings mostly accurate here on probably all copies)

Rather than have this listed separately, probably best to just fold the secondary timings into the main track section

• Correct song titles/lengths
• "The title track uses strings and a choir to evoke a tighter and more complex structure" - Don't agree that the structure itself is necessarily more complex due to the addition of strings/choir, nor does this make it any tighter. It's the recording engineering and the treatment of the drums/percussion (rhythm section) that makes production tighter. Can re-describe.
• "In the years since Jerry Garcia's death, Furthur has performed the entire "Terrapin Station" suite." - Probably best not to go through all the spin-off bands and list their versions
• "in an unfurnished house with a picture window overlooking San Francisco Bay during a flamboyant..." - Condense, make relative
• Long section that I (partially) wrote describing live performances can now be condensed/made relative
• "the Internet Archive" - mentioned but not explained
    —   Tangverse (talk) 09:20, 5 February 2017 (UTC)

Go to Heaven

Mudwater (talk · contribs) I appreciate any input you may have but specifically this sentence:
"Althea came to be regarded as a Garcia-Hunter classic, and ranked #5 on Stereogum's list of the 10 best Dead songs."
Does it seem kind of random? I like to keep legacy info as much as possible but this page was pretty thin.
  —   Tangverse (talk) 06:17, 2 March 2017 (UTC)

Yeah, that's rather random, all right. Although it does have a reference, at least. I could argue it either way, but you might as well take it out if you feel strongly that it doesn't fit. — Mudwater ^(Talk) 11:29, 2 March 2017 (UTC)

There are hundreds (at least) of lists one could use in this manner (so why this one?); and I think it was recognized/regarded pretty early on, plus all of the Garcia-Hunter comps that lasted were pretty much classics (i.e., the arguments that you probably also noticed). It probably won't stay unless I think of a better presentation. (Like "Fan favorite Althea recently ranked #5 on a Stereogum list of the 10 best Dead songs." But even then the relevance is already dated.)
  —  Tangverse (talk) 11:51, 2 March 2017 (UTC)

Yeah, that makes sense. I'd say use your best judgement. The article can always be changed again later, for better or worse! — Mudwater ^(Talk) 13:12, 2 March 2017 (UTC)

Reckoning

Mudwater (talk · contribs) - Am working on a the body for Reckoning (in sandbox). Would like to add the cover of For the Faithful... - I have a copy somewhere but apparently not accessibly; maybe you have a photo? BTW, I'm aware of the track template (as used on the recent revision to Go to Heaven) but choose not to use it because I don't believe it looks as good and is as easy to scan. There are times it works better but IMO it's not as clean and is harder to work with, on these pages.
  —   Tangverse (talk) 06:56, 10 March 2017 (UTC)

Hello. (1) About the {{Track listing}} template, I agree that a regular numbered list tends to be both easier to read and easier to work with. In fact, MOS:ALBUM#Track listing suggests not using the template in typical situations. It says, "A track listing should generally be formatted as a numbered list.... In more complicated situations, a table or the {{Track listing}} template may be a better choice." That same editor has changed a number of Dead album articles quite recently, to use the template, and I don't think it's an improvement. (2) About For the Faithful, I forgot about that release! One possible source for the album cover image is here -- click on the album cover, near the upper left, to display a large size image. — Mudwater ^(Talk) 11:08, 10 March 2017 (UTC)

(2) I wasn't sure if Discogs was a usable source. Okay - will work on it; and check the preview if you like (almost ready + There's another photo I wanted to use as well from 14Oct80 but the copyright holder will have to be asked). (1) if you look at Beyond Description (1973–1989) part way down you can see the difference in old track template vs new cleaner listing. Also, the "cite error" is happening there because that note doesn't need to be added (except for bonus disc) - hence "See individual album pages for more information". (I will likely revert some of these; like American Beauty, which now has missing info, tiny text, etc.).
  —   Tangverse (talk) 14:34, 10 March 2017 (UTC)

About the track listing edits, perhaps you (or I) could start a discussion about it, to get other editors' opinions. Talk:Grateful Dead might be the best place for that. As far as starting to revert some of those edits, I think that would be okay, especially if they broke the notes. — Mudwater ^(Talk) 00:28, 11 March 2017 (UTC)

P.S. I generally prefer the numbered lists, but the track listing template is not totally awful. A lot of those track listings have notations for who the lead singer of each song is. That's a fourth piece of information, on top of song title, songwriters, and time. So using the template is slightly less annoying in that case, in my opinion. Still, the broken notes are definitely an issue. — Mudwater ^(Talk) 00:39, 11 March 2017 (UTC)

Well, here's one to get the ball rolling. — Mudwater ^(Talk) 04:02, 11 March 2017 (UTC)

Actually, a better place to start a discussion on this would probably be Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Albums. — Mudwater ^(Talk) 12:47, 11 March 2017 (UTC)

On the other hand, just tidying things up a bit and moving on from here would be another reasonable approach. I fixed the extraneous tag on Beyond Description, just now, and another editor reverted the track listing for American Beauty, here. We might be okay for now.... — Mudwater ^(Talk) 20:29, 14 March 2017 (UTC)

Hi Tangverse. Is everything okay? You've been kinda quiet lately. — Mudwater ^(Talk) 11:57, 25 March 2017 (UTC)

You haven't made any edits in more than a month. You're not mad about those silly track listings, are you? Or if more article fixing is needed, I could probably help out. Lemme know. — Mudwater ^(Talk) 01:04, 17 April 2017 (UTC)

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