User talk:Supreme Deliciousness/Archives/2010/August

Golan Heights

I'm sorry. I spoke too soon.

Maybe your suggestion is a good one, but an uninvolved administrator would need to impose the 1RR restriction. — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 19:22, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

Your edits

You seem to be going around from article to article, removing mentions of Israel, and replacing them with 'Palestine'. That doesn't seem to me to serve the purposes of an encyclopedia. HupHollandHup (talk) 16:39, 31 July 2010 (UTC)

Its the opposite, some people go around from article to article and remove the word Palestine when thats what it says in the sources and/or replace it with Israel: [1][2][3][4][5][6][7] That doesn't seem to me to serve the purposes of an encyclopedia. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 16:49, 31 July 2010 (UTC)

Are you sure about that? Looking at Syrian Brown Bear, for example, it has said 'Syrian brown bears historically found in Anatolia (Turkey), Syria, Lebanon, Israel, Iraq, Iran, and parts of Afghanistan.' , or some variation of this, since 2006. Only recently, (late 2009) did someone change that to 'Palestine'. HupHollandHup (talk) 17:07, 31 July 2010 (UTC)

In 2006 that part was unsourced, someone added source and corrected the regions, Israel wasn't in the source: [8], the edits above occurred when the source did not say Israel and it was pointed out to them in the edit summary's and at the talkpage that the source did not say Israel, but Palestine. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 17:15, 31 July 2010 (UTC)

The fact remains that 'Israel' was there first, and then an editor recently changed it to 'Palestine', and you participated in an edit war to keep 'Palestine' there, in place of 'Israel'. When something is unsourced, you should tag it - it's not as if it is hard to find sources, recent, high-quality academic ones at that, which say that bear was once common in Israel: [9], [10], [11]. The Arak article is another example - 'Israel' was there since the eighth edit to the article, back in 2004, and then you show up to remove it a week ago. HupHollandHup (talk) 23:33, 31 July 2010 (UTC)

It doesn't matter if it was "there first", what matters is what the sources say. Yes he changed it to Palestine because that was what the source said. And I follow the sources. The first two sources you provided here does not mention Israel, the third one confirms that it has never existed in Israel. Israel came into existence in 1948. This source: [12] talks about "biblical Israel" and that it was extinct in the early 20th century, that's before Israel came into existence. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 23:45, 31 July 2010 (UTC)

And here is another source: "The mammals of Israel" - "In Israel, it formerly occurred in Galilee and the Judean hills during biblical times, but was extirpated about a hundred years ago. The last wild Syrian Bear was killed near Majdal Shams in the southern Mount Hermon in 1917." [13] Now this is interesting because Majdal Shams isn't even in Israel, its in Syria. Some Israelis think this part of Syria belongs to them. This means that the last Syrian bear in Israel died before 1917, but it doesn't really matter, because either way there wasn't a Syrian bear in Israel before 1948, which means that the Syrian bear has never existed in Israel. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 23:58, 31 July 2010 (UTC)

As far as my claim that you are going around replacing 'Israel' with 'Palestine', and your counter claim that you are merely undoing what another editor did, it of course matters very much if it was "there first". It's good to see you at least agree that 'Israel' was there first, as I claimed. You've now moved the goal post and claim that yes, you are removing 'Israel' and putting 'Palestine' in its place - but are doing so because that's what sources say, but that's simply incorrect. I provided you with two recent academic sources, please read them (the entire article, not the abstract). The first one, a 2008 article from the scientific journal Molecular Ecology, says "brown bears were living in the Near East until the beginning of the 20th century, occupying territories corresponding to present Syria, Israel and Lebanon", (p.1968 ); the second one is a 2008 article from the scientific journal International Journal of Osteoarchaeology, which says "The brown bear (Ursus arctos) ...This species is known mainly by a few remains in Mount Carmel and adjacent parts of northern Israel" (p. 8.). This is in addition to the academic source currently in the Wikipedia article [14], a 2009 publication from the academic journal Diversity and Distributions, which says "Ursus arctos has since been extirpated from Egypt, Israel, Lebanon and, more recently Syria" (Introduction, page 1). Like I said, it's not as if these high quality academic sources are hard to find - took me about 10 minutes on Google Scholar, without leavign my desk. If your goal here is to build a decent encyclopedia, please put a little effort into research. HupHollandHup (talk) 00:11, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make here. We go by what sources say, and I've given you numerous recent academic sources that explicitly say it is extinct in Israel, not Palestine. If instead of going by what sources say you want to advance your personal analysis that because the last bear was killed before modern-day Israel became a state, then surely we can't put 'Palestine' in the article, because it is not a state at all! ( even if you treat the entity recognized as 'Palestine' as a state - that only came into being in 1988 - long after the bears were gone from the area. ) HupHollandHup (talk) 00:23, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

Your sources doesn't help your case. They are speaking of the past. The source at the Syrian bear article[15] also says that it was extinct in Palestine. If you take all the sources you have provided here and the one I have provided, we can see that they say that there has never been a Syrian bear in Israel. Because Israel came into existence in 1948 and according to the sources the last Syrian bear in Israel and Israeli-occupied-Syria died in 1917 which means that the last Syrian bear in Israel died before 1917, so that's several years before Israel came into existence. You can not say that what existed and died in Palestine, existed in today's Israel. We are talking about the State of Israel, while Palestine is a name for the mandate and geographical area that existed before the State of Israel and is used still today for the region. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 00:41, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

Let me repeat: we go by what sources say, and I have 3 high quality academic sources that explicitly say the bear is extinct in Israel. Your personal analysis is interesting, but irrelevant, and precludes using 'Palestine' (which is not the same as the British mandate for Palestine), on top of that. HupHollandHup (talk) 01:03, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

Conflict

It might be helpful if you tried to steer clear of direct conflict with User:Chesdovi, however difficult it may be for one (or both) of you. Nothing good will come of disputes which turn personal, and some of the messages and edit summaries I've seen point in that direction.  Frank  |  talk  17:16, 31 July 2010 (UTC)

I don't recall anything turned personal between me and Chesdovi. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 17:23, 31 July 2010 (UTC)

Really? What was this AN/I thread for?  Frank  |  talk  17:30, 31 July 2010 (UTC)

And, I think your edit summary "False, see talk" is a little provocative as well.  Frank  |  talk  17:31, 31 July 2010 (UTC)

The ANI thread is about a disruptive IP, not Chesdovi. Therese nothing personal about me saying: "false, see talk", I don't know if it was "provocative", wasn't my intention. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 17:35, 31 July 2010 (UTC)

I applied WP:DUCK to draw the conclusion the IP and Chesdovi are related. I could be wrong.

Still, "False, see talk" is provocative. It implies there is only one truth, and further that truth is actually attainable (and what we are after). Really it's verifiability we are after; as you know, that's a different animal. What I'm saying here is that you could just as easily write "please discuss on talk page" to avoid language which might be taken the wrong way. "False, see talk" doesn't invite discussion; it says "you're wrong; go to that page to find out why."  Frank  |  talk  17:41, 31 July 2010 (UTC)

The Israel article

Hi, the point I was trying to address is the sentence mentioning "Golan", and without the qualifier the sentence might be read as saying the Golan is an area in Israel, which obviously it isn't. I'm not claiming my sentence is the best possible wording and there are, as is known, many ways to skin a cat so I'm open to other ideas too. Cheers, --Dailycare (talk) 17:38, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

My edit

I answered you on my talk page. Cheers. Tom Reedy (talk) 12:13, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

Wikipedia review

I have been on it but not for some time. I'd probably need a few guesses to find my password. Anything interesting going on?--Peter cohen (talk) 21:57, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

Wikibias

Sigh, there's more? Feel free to send the evidence to me via Special:EmailUser/Tariqabjotu. -- tariqabjotu 10:31, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

Blocked Eric accordingly. Thanks for sharing the information, although I'm mildly troubled by the time and effort that must have went into discovering the identity of the blogger (although I presume it came only in the past twelve hours). I hope you don't constantly look into other editors that closely. -- tariqabjotu 11:44, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

Interesting. I was concerned about this editor some time ago, when I cane across this comment. It was on User talk:Eri1985, the talk page of a non-existent user, and together with other comments there it looked as though this was some sort of "dead letter drop" for pro-Israel editors to receive organised support. Now that the page has been linked to this account, things become clearer, and it is evident that Eric1985 has been up to this for quite some time now. Well done for establishing this conclusively. RolandR (talk) 12:13, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

On ANI

Just so you know, there is a thread on WP:ANI that mentions you: WP:ANI#Jiujitsuguy and Eric1985 blocked indefinitely for off-wiki canvassing regarding Israel/Palestine. -- tariqabjotu 18:53, 21 August 2010 (UTC)