User talk:Ruggalicious/National Provincial Championship discussions

2021 Bunnings NPC Changes

Hi there, first and foremost I’d like to thank you for your edits with regards to the 2021 and 2022 Bunnings NPC articles. Hopefully I can look forward to you keeping it updated throughout this season coming up. I was wondering if you’d consider reverting a few of the changes you’ve made with the Play-offs and Ranfurly Shield sections. Over the course of editing these pages I have tried to keep it consistent with other major rugby pages such as the Top 14 and English Premiership. Not to forget the example shown on Template:Rugbybox. Just something to consider and open to your thoughts. Kidsoljah (talk) 08:27, 24 July 2022 (UTC)

Hi Kidsoljah, thanks for your comment. (Below, I use the words "scoring style" to refer to the way scores and scorers are written down for each competition game.)

I've thoroughly thought about your comment and – although there is no specific need for change – I'm not against more consistency in "scoring style"  between competitions. But, obviously, creating consistency for the sake of consistency is not enough. The chosen "scoring style" should make sense and be fit for purpose. With the template you're referring to (from 2007) that's not completely the case.

Something that doesn't make sense in that Rugbybox template (and the competition pages you're referring to) is the use of "m" and "c" after a try. For a casual rugby follower and Wiki user that doesn't mean anything without explanation. It's also totally unnecessary. If a Wiki user wants to know whether a try is converted, they just have to check the time the try was scored and look whether a conversion was made straight after. After all, the minute of the game a conversion was made in is noted. As conversions are only made after a try, there is nothing difficult about that.

Another thing is the use of last names only. I've noted that – in that template – an initial is added in case there are more players with the same last name in the team, but including full first names is so much clearer. After all, players may be known under a first name that doesn't correspond to their initials! Wiki users shouldn't have to click on a name to find out who the player is. Again, editors shouldn't assume that Wiki users are more than casual rugby followers.

I think the other elements of that template are fine, but with these modifications. There is still consistency with other competitions: the Major League Rugby (MLR) and Súper Liga Americana de Rugby (SLAR). Being relatively new competitions, the creators and editors of those pages have had a fresh opportunity to consider the best "scoring style" and I think they've got it right.

So, in my view, we should follow the example of the MLR and SLAR, which is still very similar to the template you are referring to (without pictures for tries and kicks), but better.

One thing though. Consistency with other competitions is one thing. Consistency within pages is more important. That's why I disagree with changing the "scoring style" of NPC finals (and preseason Ranfurly Shield games) only. The "scoring style" of finals should be the same as for games of the regular season.

Following this, I think reverting my changes to the 2021 Bunnings NPC page would be wrong, because it would restore an inconsistency within that page (unfortunately, that same inconsistency still exists on pages of previous seasons). I am, however, happy to use a "scoring style" that is similar to that template that you're proposing, but without its downsides, by using the format used in the MLR and SLAR for the 2022 Bunnings NPC article.

I'm sorry for the long reply. Interested in hearing you're reaction. Ruggalicious (talk) 03:37, 25 July 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for your reply and adding your opinion. I think your point regarding to keeping it the same within the article would be the best approach going forward. I agree with removing the “m” and “c” as they could be confusing to the non-rugby reader and have always been a fan of using the try and kick templates. However over the years I’ve tried to keep it consistent with other wiki rugby articles to keep it all looking the same. Nonetheless going forward I think we continue using the scoring templates, using the players first and last names, and I believe having the play-offs and pre-season Ranfurly Shield challenges being non-collapsed as they are significant matches throughout the season. What are your thoughts? Kidsoljah (talk) 06:58, 26 July 2022 (UTC)

Just for clarification. When you say, "Nonetheless going forward I think we continue using the scoring templates", which scoring templates are you referring to?

Also, I don't think pre-season Ranfurly Shield challenges should be non-collapsed, if only for the practical reason that these games are sometimes try-fests and the list of try-scorers could be very long. That would take up a disproportional amount of space on the page. I also don't think these games are more important that Ranfurly Shield games against NPC teams (which are collapsed, like all regular season games, as they should be). Agree with play-offs being non-collapsed. Ruggalicious (talk) 08:47, 26 July 2022 (UTC)

My apologies, I meant using the try and kick templates. From my understanding you don’t want to use them. Therefore if that’s the case, someone would need to tidy and edit the previous seasons. I disagree with collapsing the preseason challenges. Those you could call historic and unique as they are one-off matches every year when one NPC team (usually the defenders) plays teams from the opposite competition, the Heartland Championship. These particular teams are usually the Meads or Lochore Cup finalists. In addition the defending team as to also accept the team as a defence. Whereas the other games are during the regular season, regardless if the team didn’t have the shield they would still play one another. I believe space on the page isn’t much of an issue compared to other professional sports. You’d like to have has much data as you can in retrospect. Kidsoljah (talk) 18:54, 27 July 2022 (UTC)

Okay. I think we're seeing the problem with talking online here. Let me recap the discussion thus far. You were disagreeing with my changes to the play-offs and pre-season Ranfurly Shield sections on the 2021 Bunnings NPC page, where I had replaced the Rugbybox template with the try and kick templates. Your reason for disagreeing was that you were trying to achieve consistency with the articles about some Northern Hemisphere competition pages that use the Rugbybox template. When I proposed to no longer using the try and kick templates on future pages, but only using part of the Rugbybox format because some other parts make no sense at all (the 'm' and 'c', for example), you responded with "going forward I think we continue using the scoring templates" (meaning the try and kick templates) and you now conclude with "From my understanding you don’t want to use them".

That's a mistunderstanding. I do prefer the try and kick templates. My proposal to drop them was only meant as a helpful compromise with you, because you were keen on achieving consistency and using the Rugbybox template like on those NH hemisphere competition pages.

But if you also prefer the kick and try template, we seem to agree on the way forward! I'll happily continue using them like they have been used in previous seasons and as I've done when adding scorers to the 2022 Bunnings NPC page for the first pre-season Ranfurly Shield game (Hawke's Bay v South Canterbury). I'm glad we have cleared this up, as the next Ranfurly Shield game is this Saturday and the competition starts next week! Ruggalicious (talk) 00:31, 28 July 2022 (UTC)