User talk:Paine Ellsworth/Charmed Companions

This template was moved from its original location,
so the history reflects the original creator of this template.
The creator of this template is
editor Olympic god, (talk). Olympic god created this template
on 27 January 2009 with this edit.
— ^.`^) Paine Ellsworth ^diss`cuss (^^`. 04:01, 1 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Explanation forthcoming

I commented out the original deletion template on the Template page because it was showing up in the articles' namespaces. I think it's the wrong deletion template to use. I shall begin working on an explanation why it should not be deleted.
— ^.`^) Paine Ellsworth ^diss`cuss (^^`. 04:13, 28 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Explanation

From WP:Fancruft:

“

While "fancruft" is often a succinct and frank description of such accumulations, it also implies that the content is unimportant and that the contributor's judgment of the topic's importance is clouded by fanaticism. Thus, use of this term may be regarded as pejorative, and when used in discussion about another editor's contributions, it can sometimes be regarded as uncivil.

”

I on the other hand will assume good faith on the part of the editor Zythe. While I created this Navbar, it was initially created at Template:Charmedcompanions by another editor. I was reading the Piper Halliwell article and came across that template at the bottom. I noted that it was not like the usual Navbars in that it did not have the v-d-e available on the left. I looked into it and saw that it was a Table Class Navbox rather than a true Navbox.

After creating a true Navbox template in my sandbox, I then created this template page. After some discussion at the Help desk, which I documented on my Talk page, I was able to hone and sharpen the spacings enough for it to replace the old template. After finding which articles linked to the old template and linking those to my new template, I placed a deletion tag on the old template's page. Up until then I had thought that the old template was just that, very old. I found out that it had just been created early this year, so I backpedaled on the deletion and opened a discussion on the original creator's Talk page. As of today, the original creator has yet to respond.

Then I found out how to add the easy-edit feature (v-d-e) to a Table Class Navbox. I was looking for a solution because whatever spacing type I used in the Navbox I had created: px, em or ex, the spacings did not remain consistent across browsers, skins nor fonts. I had noticed that the original Table Class Navbox would remain consistent and spacings would be stable across browsers, skins and fonts. So I converted my template, this template, back to a Table Class Navbox, added the easy-edit feature and was good to go.

There was actually much more to it than what I've written here, but those were the highlights. Constructing this template was a great learning experience for me, so if it truly must be deleted, then at least I will have that much to walk away with. I think editor Zythe is incorrect in the assessment that this is "fancruft" and that "there is no concept of charmed companions within the show", Charmed. Instead, I feel that there is a future for this template in that there are still unmentioned companions who can be added to the template. So there is room for growth. This template improves the articles it enhances and will make them more navigable for readers. I am in fact considering the addition of this template to other related articles in the Charmed species. So I sincerely ask that this template remain in place and be allowed to grow and to improve Wikipedia. Thank you very much for reading.
— ^.`^) Paine Ellsworth ^diss`cuss (^^`. 05:05, 28 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I apologise for the bad faith in my part. My entire response is going to be simple. How does this template benefit Wikipedia, when the (in themselves unnecessary) character articles contain chronologies, the {{Charmed}} template lists characters according to cast status and the main article includes actor tenures. I also think the invention of the label "Charmed Companion" is an issue in and of itself. Sorry for the rude speedying, though.~Zythe^{Talk to me!} 15:29, 30 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Don't give it a second thought, Zythe, no harm done. When I think of benefiting this encyclopedia, I think first of the general readers who come here to learn about subjects that interest them. So...

The argument for articles like the character articles is an old one. At some point an article might get "improved" so much as to be too long and unwieldy for readers. So an editor decides to write a spinoff article. The editor leaves a brief summary in the first article, takes the detail and incorporates it into a new article. After this is done a few times, the first article is shorter and easier for readers to handle. Then, another editor happens along, reads one of the spinoffs and asks, "Why is this needed? It could be either deleted or merged into the mother article." And so on. It is just this cycle of checks and balances that is the basis for long-term improvement of an encyclopedia.
The template itself performs at least four things:
1. It brings together in one place some of the more important characters that were with the main characters during various time periods of the show. This helps readers to see at-a-glance that "so and so" was a companion to Phoebe during "such and such" season(s), or that "so and so" had a three-season run or a seven-season run, and so forth.
2. The template also comes equipped with Wikilinks either to character articles or at least to brief descriptions of the characters. This helps readers to easily navigate in, around and through the Charmed species of articles.
3. There are also links to each "Season" article to even better enhance navigation for readers.
4. The resulting Navbar, as you know, is placed at the bottom of an article. There is no distraction to readers while they peruse an article. Yet, when they're finished reading an article, the Navbar provides related and ready information to help readers choose what they want to read next.

I do realize that some of this info is available in other formats in various other articles of the Charmed species; however, this Navbar brings useful information together in a different and focused manner. This can only help readers navigate, understand and enjoy the subject that interests them, in this case, the Charmed series. So in this most important of aspects, this Navbar template can only benefit and improve Wikipedia.

Now just a brief note to emphasize the fact that all I have done was to make a few edits to this template. All the "real" work, the actual creation of this template, was done by another – editor Olympic god. I created this new page only because I thought that a true Navbox should be used. When I found out that the spacings were unstable, and that I could make Olympic God's template easier to edit, I went right back to that editor's creation. So as far as I'm concerned, this template is that editor's creation, not mine. I've just made a few enhancements such as installing the v-d-e easy-edit feature, lighten the background colors and add a few more companions. Olympic god deserves all the credit for the creation of this template.

I shall soon place a {{Tfd}} template on the original page located at Template:Charmedcompanions, since there is no need for both templates, and since no articles link to that template anymore. Thank you for listening, Zythe, and I hope I've made an acceptable case for the continued usage of this useful and helpful template!

— ^.`^) Paine Ellsworth ^diss`cuss (^^`. 00:35, 31 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

What is the "best use" of the info in this template?

I would like to stand by my comments above about the importance of this template. Nonetheless, I intend to try to be flexible and openminded in order to prevent its complete loss by Tfd. So I invite any and all ideas about how to best use the information found in this template.
— ^.`^) Paine Ellsworth ^diss`cuss (^^`. 10:11, 27 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Seeking third opinion

As an aside from the previous section, which will hopefully be a discussion about the best use of the information in this template, I would also like an unbiased opinion from an uninvolved editor. This template was up for deletion in August about a month ago, and was recently put up again for deletion. There was no consensus to delete the first time, and that deletion sort of reversed into just the deletion of the original template that was at Template:Charmedcompanions (now a Redirect to this template). This time the editor who began the process, Magioladitis, has stated that rather than delete the template information altogether, that a better usage of the information ought to be found. If all the points of argument are considered carefully and thoughtfully, I am hoping that a third opinion from an uninvolved editor will agree that this template is a powerful and needed tool for readers of this encyclopedia, those who are interested in the Charmed articles. Perhaps this template shouldn't be in every article that it links to. I am willing to bend, but I have put a lot of work into this Navbar, and of course, I would like to see it perhaps expanded a bit more, and utilized on appropriate article pages to offer readers a focused choice of further reading when they have finished an article. Thank you very much for your input!
— ^.`^) Paine Ellsworth ^diss`cuss (^^`. 10:39, 27 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

→ from WP:Third opinion: As this template is currently the subject of a TfD discussion, it has passed beyond the two-editor remit of that board. My personal opinion, based on my reading of WP:CLN#Navigation templates, is that this NavBox would work better as a table at List of Charmed characters or at a dedicated wiki. Commenting at the TfD now. - 2/0 (cont.) 20:57, 27 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Wikitable-ize

Well, it doesn't look too well for the keeping of this awesome and useful template. Nobody seems to be siding with me to hold on to it and not delete it this time. It has been suggested to convert it into a regular table and put it on, say, the List of Charmed characters page. So in case we lose the debate and this template is deleted and lost, I have Wikitable-ized it in my sandbox. I've also shown how it can be added to that page at the very bottom with the {{Charmed}} template. So it goes?
— ^.`^) Paine Ellsworth ^diss`cuss (^^`. 05:28, 1 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]