User talk:Norroena
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Hello, Norroena, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are some pages that you might find helpful:
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I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Please sign your messages on discussion pages using four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically insert your username and the date. If you need help, check out Wikipedia:Questions, ask me on my talk page, or ask your question on this page and then place {{helpme}} before the question. Again, welcome! Yngvadottir (talk) 16:03, 11 December 2010 (UTC)
Hi: you should know that the name of your account and the fact you have only been editing that page strongly suggest a conflict of interest. Wikipedia doesn't have rules against editing a page about oneself or one's own organization, but it strongly discourages it because of the requirement to be objective in all entries in the encyclopedia. Also, as you can see from Bloodofox's last edit summary, the material you are adding is getting removed because you aren't demonstrating notability of the new Norrœna. To do this and get mention of it left in the article, you will need to find and cite two mentions of it in reliable sources - such as a reputable newspaper or an academic work on heathenry. Have a look at the formatting of the article as it is to see how to insert these as footnotes; your last edit removed the text of existing footnotes and just left the numbers. If you can find 2 such references and word the addition neutrally (and briefly - the info on the historical Norrœna Society will still be more notable), then there's a chance it will not be removed. I also suggest you look around and fix typos or otherwise contribute in other places on Wikipedia, both because you will then not be a Single Issue Account and also because it's the best way of getting a feel for the house style and learning the formatting. As I said above, feel free to ask me or someone else for assistance - new editors are always welcome and it's nice to see new heathens/people interested in Germanic stuff around :-) There's plenty of work! Yngvadottir (talk) 16:16, 11 December 2010 (UTC)
Hello Yngvadottir,
Firstly thank you for your response. I am new to the whole Wikipedia thing and it is great to see that there are some guiding members dedicated to making Wikipedia a cohesive online research arena.
I must express my concerns with the objections being placed to the revisions of the Norroena Society entry. "Bloodofox" seems to have more of a personal issue with the actions of The Norroena Society, which seems to conflict with Wikipedia's stated mission for an "unbiased" database. The truth of the matter is that the original Norroena Society has been defunct for over 100 years, and a group of people decided to bring it back to further its goals, and have managed to do so effectively. It is an established organization, which two new publications under its name, which are widely popular within the Neopagan community. It is a legally recognized community, and though "Bloodofox" may not agree with the fact that the name was continued by a whole new group of people, that is his personal opinion and should not interfere with the information provided to Wikipedia readers. The newly re-established Society was completely within their legal rights to use the name, and quite honestly, have accomplished a great deal of positive endeavors under its umbrella. Therefore his issues are solely his own, and he is apparently on some kind of online power trip.
I understand your statement that proof needs to be derived from academic sources. But to this statement I retort -- the Norroena Society is of itself an academic source, with published works. How can anyone argue with that? It is fact, demonstrated through the legal entity of the organization on paper, and the fact that it has recently published books under its name available for sale across the world. Why are Wikipedia readers being censored from this information? Simply because "Bloodofox" doesn't like it? That hardly seems fair.
Anyone feedback you could provide would be truly appreciated. And I do apologize for the formatting errors made in the entry -- as I said, I am learning. Thank you!
- Heya: I think the crux of the matter is that to be mentioned on Wikipedia, something has to be notable . . . and that's determined on Wikipedia by whether reputable sources talk about it more than incidentally. I don't always find that easy to work with on heathen issues, but those are the rules. Self-references can't be used to establish notability, only to add information. Which is why I said you would need one or two newspaper or academic sources referring to your venture. That's the practical threshold for something to survive a challenge as non-notable. I believe the most applicable policy/guideline page is WP:EXISTS. No one is saying the current Norrœna Society does not exist. Or even that its works are not popular. Or even that the writers don't have degrees. In fact one of the things about Wikipedia is it collects together enthusiasts, nerds, and downright experts on everything in the 9 worlds; I don't doubt you, I, and Bloodofox all have the chops to conduct graduate seminars in Old Norse literature, and one or more of us may have done so. But a company or any other topic has to be demonstrably notable to be included. Articles are challenged on this ground, and eventually deleted, every day. And notability is not inherited - using the same name as the old Norrœna does not give yours automatic notability. That requires refs., whether it's put into the same article or a new independent one. It's the notability - defined/demonstrated in Wikipedia's way - that's at issue. So can you find the necessary authoritative mentions by outsiders? Yngvadottir (talk) 18:43, 12 December 2010 (UTC)
- Hello, bloodofox here. Norroena, Yngvadottir is spot on about why your additions have been removed. Solid references are required, and any references one does dig up must provide exactly the information that one relays here on Wikipedia. :bloodofox: (talk) 20:53, 13 December 2010 (UTC)
The University of Cambridge is currently incorporating The Asatru Edda into its curriculum for 2013, a book published by The Norroena Society (listed on its cover and in its title which is available on every major bookstore online and many physical ones as well). William Reaves' books have all included references to the new Norroena books as well. The books and the newly re-established Society have been discused in almost every heathen organization's periodicals, but I would assume that this does not live up to your 'standards'.
"Those are the rules". It's just simply odd that these rules that don't seem to apply to almost every other topic known to mankind on Wikipedia. This whole "you have to prove it or it immediately gets deleted" when there is nothing out there to systematically DISPROVE it, well this whole concept seems to go against everything that Wikipedia was established upon and supports in the US. If nothing else, it should simply be noted that there is some argument that some of these facts are true, or that they need to be verified (I have seen this before so I know this can be done). This definitely reeks more of a personal issue than trying to make Wikipedia the best online resource it can be, which is sad. Norroena (talk) 12:56, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
- I don't think you are aware of the amount of deleting that goes on on en.wikipedia. But as I say, all you have to do is find 2 references to cite, from either academic works or reputable newspapers. (Amazon listings don't meet the standard and neither do heathen periodicals, any more than church circulars would for a Xian topic.) The refs. must specifically mention the modern Norrœna Society, in some detail; they can't just be to an author or a book. Find a couple of those and you can add what they support. Yngvadottir (talk) 15:49, 16 December 2010 (UTC)