User talk:Mrbearsb

Feleena (From El Paso)

Marty Robbins spelled the name as "Feleena" in the title of his song. Please do not "correct" this again. --Khajidha (talk) 20:13, 20 January 2020 (UTC)

Perhaps you would be kind enough to share the authoritative source that you find so convincing.

The track listing on the cover of the album it was released on. What's your source?--Khajidha (talk) 21:20, 21 January 2020 (UTC)

I would be most grateful for a picture of that cover. It would convince me, too.

In a related matter, what about the song, El Paso? (the 1959 song which is the basis of two followup songs)Did Robbins misspell Felina then, too?

1) The cover is visible at the link that was already present in the article's lead when the name is first mentioned (https://www.discogs.com/de/Marty-Robbins-The-Drifter/release/3462152). 2) As Robbins created the character of Feleena, it is spelled however he says it is. By definition, it is not misspelled. --Khajidha (talk) 23:20, 21 January 2020 (UTC)

Thank you for the picture link. The assertion that Robbins spelled the girl's name this way in 1966 is proven and accepted.

By definition, however, "a Mexican girl" is involved. That means that, by definition, the correct spelling is and has to be Felina. Robbins may well have been ignorant about how to spell the name correctly, spelling it instead the way it sounded to him, an English-speaking American. That doesn't make it right, though, and no, it doesn't mean he can just create a Mexican character whose name is spelled the way an Arab or a Celt or a German or Italian would.

The question about the 1959 lyrics has not been answered, however. So, to restate and reframe the question that hasn't been answered yet, is there any documentation showing how Robbins spelled the name when he wrote "El Paso" in 1959? Since he misspelled it in 1966, it's reasonable to think that he probably misspelled it in 1959, too, but can it be demonstrated?

Sorry, no. As a fictional character her name is whatever her creator says it is. The reality of Mexican names is irrelevant. That's how fiction works. --Khajidha (talk) 01:59, 22 January 2020 (UTC)

And here I have been under the delusion that reality is relevant! Thank you for liberating me from its constraints. I shall henceforth ignore all claims that reality may place upon me, creating my own little world instead. I need only imagine that something is so, and voila! it is so.

Muchos saludos, Khajidha. Que le vaya bien.

Reality is relevant to reality. Fiction is not reality. Creating your own little world is what fiction is all about. --Khajidha (talk) 02:09, 22 January 2020 (UTC)

Marty Robbins, like any other storyteller, had every right to create whatever fictional characters he pleased, give them any names he pleased and spell them any way he liked. Where he crossed a line and real life became relevant in spite of the fictional nature of his story, was when he specified that the girl was Mexican. The spelling options were instantly reduced to one and only one; Felina. Any other spelling must necessarily be considered a mistake, whether caused by ignorance or any other reason. No Mexican girl, no Hispanic girl, would EVER spell such a name Feleena. For Robbins to spell it that way was to depart from the freedom of fiction and cross over into error. She wasn't Canadian or American, English, Arab, German or Italian. She was Mexican, an ethnic and cultural Hispanic. There are numerous variations of the name and the way it is spelled all around the world in different countries and different languages, but not in the Spanish-speaking countries. In those, there is only one, and that one is Felina. If he didn't want it to be considered a mistake, then he should have done his homework and found the right way to spell it.

If he were singing about a real Mexican girl, he would be constrained by how she spelled her name. As this Mexican girl is entirely his creation, he is under no constraints. For all you know Feleena and her parents were completely illiterate and the name had no spelling before she came to the US. All that we can know about her is what Robbins tells us. He says she is Mexican and that her name is Feleena. Those are incontrovertible facts about this character. That you are of the opinion that these facts are contradictory is of no import. In the universe within this song, this particular Mexican girl spells her name "Feleena". End of story. --Khajidha (talk) 14:04, 22 January 2020 (UTC)

Oh, and there still hasn't been any answer to the question of how Robbins spelled the name of his character in the original lyrics to El Paso (1959). Apparently, there is no answer available.

You'd have to go back to the official lyrics sheet as filed for copyright to find out. But I don't see any reason to suspect that Robbins would have changed the spelling between the two songs. --Khajidha (talk) 15:07, 22 January 2020 (UTC)

One would not think there would be any difference between the two, and yet page after page of copyrighted sheet music clearly spells it Felina in 1959. https://www.musicnotes.com/sheetmusic/mtd.asp?ppn=MN0051939 https://www.virtualsheetmusic.com/score/HL-167952.html https://www.google.com/search?hs=Tbm&sxsrf=ACYBGNQE-VpqnWxdEbPKtxR8vZpffux1ZA:1579732723155&q=lyrics+sheet+copyright+el+paso+marty+robbins&tbm=isch&source=univ&client=opera&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiY1Lb-opjnAhVYs54KHXsDBDYQ7Al6BAgKEBk&biw=1973&bih=967#imgrc=_

Many of those pages are demonstrably not from 1959. You can tell because many of them give a "copyright renewed" notice. Not to mention that they are all produced by 3rd party publishers, not by Mariposa Music itself. --Khajidha (talk) 15:18, 23 January 2020 (UTC)

BFD

http://johnbraheny.com/songbook-errors-proof-em-1st/ That's why its a "BFD". Every step away from the songwriter is an opportunity for error. Just as with any quotation, you want to go back as close to the origin as possible. --Khajidha (talk) 17:08, 23 January 2020 (UTC)

Feel free to demonstrate that all these music publishers actually made a mistake in transcribing.

Considering that I've already shown that Robbins used the spelling Feleena, I'd say I have. --Khajidha (talk) 10:28, 24 January 2020 (UTC)

Nonsense. You proved that he misspelled it in 1966, not that he did the same in 1959.

1) Again, as he created the character, the way he spelled it is correct. It isn't misspelled. 2) It is much more likely that he (being the songwriter) would have used the same spelling in both songs than that he would have changed it between them. I will take Marty Robbins's word from a mere six years later over the word of totally unconnected publishers from 2020. It is up to YOU to prove that Marty Robbins changed the spelling between the two. To do that, you need to find something from Robbins himself, his own music publisher, or his own record label. Just as with quotations, "this other person said that somebody said this" is not enough.--Khajidha (talk) 13:34, 24 January 2020 (UTC)

Negative. You are the one who needs to prove that these music publishers are wrong. You seem to believe that they all got together and conspired to change what Robbins wrote. Since you make mention of a copyrighted lyric sheet, here's an idea: Produce it and prove your assertion if you can.

No, I'm saying that they made a mistake when they transcribed the name. As proven by the fact that the name was spelled Feleena by the song writer. --Khajidha (talk) 18:40, 24 January 2020 (UTC)

Produce the document that you, yourself, said would prove it.

I've already shown that that's the way the singer spelled it. You need to prove that he spelled it differently in this song than he did in the other song. --Khajidha (talk) 18:53, 24 January 2020 (UTC)

Nope. You didn't, and you clearly aren't going to, so I'll leave you to indulge in your convoluted logic by yourself.

Twentieth Century Drifter: The Life of Marty Robbins specifically uses the spelling "Feleena" in referring to El Paso and describing how the character was named after Robbins's former classmate, Fidelina Martinez. https://books.google.com/books?id=jGbogMkLPLYC&pg=PA17&lpg=PA17&dq=marty+robbins+fidelina&source=bl&ots=rfAukYyaJR&sig=ACfU3U2ovMdK3HkaH4dxS2UkrYxQuxMtHg&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjHirbp_aHnAhWCUt8KHcroAnMQ6AEwG3oECAsQAQ#v=onepage&q=marty%20robbins%20fidelina&f=false In case you can't see the passage, it reads "Two classmates would someday have their names immortalized in Marty Robbins ballads. One was fifth-grader Fidelina Martinez, who became Feleena in "El Paso." --Khajidha (talk) 19:27, 26 January 2020 (UTC)

I have now found a source as to how Robbins originally spelled the name. And it wasn't either "Felina" or "Feleena". It was "F-I-L-E-N-A". From https://www.adamhillwrites.com/single-post/2016/12/13/Marty-part-1

Marty Robbins looked serious, he sang “I fell in love with a Mexican girl” The men all nodded their heads, closing their eyes. Someone said “Filena? How you spell that?” Marty said “F-i-l-e-n-a.” Don said, “Where’d you come up with that name?” Marty paused and thought for a moment troubling over revelation. “ Filena, really it was Fidelina, was a girl I knew when I was a boy, in Glendale Arizona. She’d eat her lunch and I’d play the harmonica for her.”

I'll be working the new information into the article. --Khajidha (talk) 19:44, 26 January 2020 (UTC)Sorry, appears to be a work of fiction. --Khajidha (talk) 20:01, 26 January 2020 (UTC)

And here I thought you had your mind made up and wouldn't care to be confused by the facts! Congratulations, and kudos for continuing to research the matter. For what it's worth, it would be no great surprise to find that Robbins spelled it Feleena from the very beginning. That's not really the point, though. Proving that would only show that he was an ignorant gringo; he didn't know how to spell it so he did the best he could. It doesn't change the beauty of the song a bit. A rose by any other name, you know.......