User talk:MB writer

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Hello, MB writer, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Unfortunately, one or more of the pages you created may not conform to some of Wikipedia's guidelines for page creation, and may soon be deleted (if it hasn't already).

There's a page about creating articles you may want to read called Your first article. If you are stuck, and looking for help, please come to the New contributors' help page, where experienced Wikipedians can answer any queries you have! Or, you can just type {{helpme}} on your user page, and someone will show up shortly to answer your questions. Here are a few other good links for newcomers:

I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Please sign your name on talk pages using four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically produce your name and the date. If you have any questions, check out Wikipedia:Where to ask a question or ask me on my talk page. Again, welcome! Aboutmovies (talk) 10:21, 18 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Michael Bowen Michael Bowen Michael Bowen

I would not want to distract you from the important task of talking about Michael Bowen, but do you think you could take it a little easy on it? If you're going to act as a press agent on wikipedia you're going to have to be a little more subtle about it, or some people might (strangely enough) suspect your neutrality. -- Doom (talk) 17:10, 2 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

OK, please help me if you think I am not subtle enough or have questionable neutrality. The problem is that Michael Bowen is a significant artist for the last 50 years who has been a social activist and therefore has for the most part not put himself out on the internet for security reasons. Now he wants more exposure. Sure, there are "conservative" types who would not agree with his involvement in the beat generation and counter culture activism, but he is who he is....Michael Bowen to many people is an artistic cultural hero....to some he is the exact opposite....so how to present the whole story in a neutral way according to Wikipedia standards of neutrality?? I am open for any suggestion you may have. Thanks for taking the time to respond. MB writer (talk) 20:00, 2 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That Michael Bowen would like to be talked about isn't really our concern here -- the question is how much does he deserve to be talked about? Wikipedia is very much about recording consensus opinion, it is not at all about changing it -- if you think Michael Bowen has been neglected you're supposed to work on establishing that case elsewhere, and then, tough as it may seem, wait of that change to filter up into Wikipedia's understanding. It is, for example, regarded as very poor form for someone to go in and edit an article about themselves. -- Doom (talk) 21:49, 2 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Dear Doom, If the question is "How much does Michael Bowen deserve to be talked about?", then the answer is, yes, of course he deserves to be talked about as the art and history books continue to be written about the beat generation. Historically the writers and poets of any social movement are the first to get recognized, it is a general pattern that the visual artists are recognized later. Currently there is a major book being written by an art historian in California about Michael Bowen, his art, and his social activism. I know some of what is being written about him from a purely academic perspective and nothing that has been so far added to Wikipedia contradicts the historical facts or significance of Bowen's role in the beat and counter culture movements. Everything written in Wikipedia about Bowen has been referenced and he is in fact the only member of the beat generation that I know of to receive any kind of "Certificate of Honor" by any American politician. Michael Bowen, the artist himself, is not directly involved in that book or in any of the writing about him in Wikipedia. I am not trying to be any kind of "press agent". I am simply writing the correct history with adequate references. The consensus opinion is simply being recorded, not changed. You seem to be well informed about the Beat Generation and I appreciate your input. I am making sure that the Michael Bowen Wikipedia article is not "orphaned" and am doing minor editing in other Wikipedia articles to connect him. Please let me know about how the neutrality issue can be addressed... MB writer (talk) 08:14, 3 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You appear to be trying to say that the consensus is changing (or is about to change), but wikipedia is not an agent of change. For better or worse, Wikipedia is supposed to record critical opinion, it's not supposed to be a place to establish it.

My personally opinion, by the way, is that you shouldn't worry too much about something being "orphaned": that warning looks impressive, but you'll notice that there's no threat behind it. Michael Bowen is quite rightly linked to from the Human Be-In article, which is quite rightly linked to from the Beat Generation article. -- Doom (talk) 20:39, 14 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I am currently doing research on references that will show that many of the "occult" ideas initiated by the Human Be-In and the Summer of Love have a negative response, especially by the established Judeo-Christian faiths. I think this will establish a more neutral perspective and record of critical opinions that actually do exist. Certainly, not all believe that the Beat Generation and counter culture changes were positive and I intend to establish that perspective too. It should make for a more balanced article on Michael Bowen, not just some kind of hagiography. 213.100.152.85 (talk) 11:13, 16 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hippie

Hi. It's not a good idea to add references to yourself on Wikipedia per various guidelines, such as WP:COI and others. When you are interested in adding your name to an article, it's best to use the talk page to propose the idea, first. Generally, it is discouraged to edit articles about yourself on Wikipedia. With that said, your addition of your name to the lead section on hippie was not the right place for it. You are welcome to add your addition to history of the hippie movement or some other place, but per WP:LEAD, the lead section is for a general overview of the topic. Thanks, and if you have any questions, feel free to contact me. Viriditas (talk) 06:15, 4 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Viriditas. OK, I am new to Wikipedia and I thank you for your help. However, I am not Michael Bowen, so I am not editing anything about myself. Nor am I some kind of Press agent or his representative. I was following the suggestion on the article on the artist Michael Bowen that the article was orphaned and needed to be connected. I now understand that the lead article is a general overview and will follow your suggestion and add the Bowen reference to the Human Be In as well as the Love Pageant Rally to history of the hippie movement. Or should I first use the talk page to propose the idea? The history of Michael Bowen and his organization and promotion of the Love Pageant Rally as well as the Human Be In is well documented and so why not just add it?? Again, thanks for your help...MB writer (talk) 11:00, 4 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hello, and nice to meet you. The best thing you can do to make your case, is to improve Michael Bowen. When editors go to that page, they are greeted with a hagiography, which is something we want to avoid. Viriditas (talk) 11:30, 4 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Aloha, hagiography? Well, maybe....I understand your point and why Wikipedia wants to avoid that perspective. I will have to re-write much of everything and chose my references carefully. I also need to spend time reading more about how to write a biography for Wikipedia...but the problem is that Michael Bowen has been involved with various aspects of metaphysics for the majority of his life and his art and social activism reflect this. Is he a saint?? That's not up to me to judge, he is an artist. Not everyone likes his art or his social activism. But the historical facts of his involvement with the spiritual awakening that happened during the sixties is recognized by many scholars. Again, how to present this material in a neutral way remains a problem for me. Your help in this regard will be greatly appreciated....Nice to meet you too.MB writer (talk) 15:14, 4 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

January 2009

Hello, and welcome to Wikipedia!

I hope not to seem unfriendly or make you feel unwelcome, but I noticed your user page, and I am concerned that it might not meet Wikipedia's user page guideline. After you look over that guideline, could we discuss that concern here? I'd appreciate hearing your views, such as your reasons for wanting this particular page and any alternatives you might accept.

There are several options available for resolving this matter:

If you can relieve my concerns through discussing it here, I can stop worrying about it.
If you decide to delete the page yourself, please add {{Db-userreq}} to the top of the page in question and an administrator will delete it.
If the two of us can't agree on what needs to be done, we can ask for help through Wikipedia's user pages for discussion, which may result in the page in question being deleted.

Thank you. Please note that placing a copy of a Wikipedia article on your userpage violates Wikipedia guidelines. I will report it to WP:MFD if you do not alter or delete it. Sfmammamia (talk) 19:57, 17 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Your Userpage

I've archived your current userpage sanboxing area to your user sandbox at [1]. As a result of this mfd discussion: Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/User:MB writer. You may make a new userpage. Thank you, — xaosflux ^Talk 05:51, 30 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]