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>>> Note: Little Silas was formerly known as "2602:306:3134:6180:848e:9e67:8ee5:670a".
>>> A new handle seemed like a good idea. >>>Little Silas (talk) 04:59, 23 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]


Welcome!

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Hello, Little Silas, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few links to pages you might find helpful:

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Please remember to sign your messages on talk pages by typing four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically insert your username and the date. If you need help, check out Wikipedia:Questions, ask me on my talk page, or click here to ask for help on your talk page, and a volunteer should respond shortly. Again, welcome! DES (talk) 03:43, 23 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]


Winsor McCay's Birth Year

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( dispute already in progress ..... )

Learn to read. No record of McCay's birth exists in Woodstock—the only evidence that he may have been born there are self-reports on those two censuses. While it's likely, proof simply doesn't exist, and Canemaker makes that very clear. Find another outlet for your horseshit.Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 22:46, 17 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

  • >>> Who besides you has said anything about Woodstock??? The issue is John Canemaker's published belief (p263) that Winsor McCay was born in 1867, and that his brother Arthur was born in 1868, making Winsor's birth after 1867 impossible. Or do really believe that younger brother Arthur was older than Winsor? Learn to think! 2602:306:3134:6180:848E:9E67:8EE5:670A (talk) 23:39, 17 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • Who besides you has said anything about Woodstock: ummm ... Canemaker? If McCay was born in Canada, it would have been in Woodstock (where his parents lived in 1867), and Woodstock has no record of his birth. Canemaker says so.
    Your reading skills are really embarrassing: Canemaker says "probably correct", and it probably is, but stating it as a fact when documentary evidence doesn't exist is something that Wikipedia cannot do. You keep hammering this "younger brother" horseshit when both pages 22 and 263 only call him McCay's "brother", not "younger brother" (as Canemaker properly should). There is nothing to stop Canemaker (and the rest of us) believing he was born in Woodstock in the Province of Canada in 1867, but Wikipedia is not about beliefs. Besides, Canemaker does not take the hard stance you claim he does—he claims nothing stronger than that a Canadian birth in 1867 is most likely. Wikipedia's not the appropriate place for your horseshit—go find a blog or something. Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 00:23, 18 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • >>> For the record, what is here so childishly called “this 'younger brother' horseshit” is, in fact, absolutely true. It is confirmed by both Canemaker[1] and Bien[2], and by the two censuses they reference. Canemaker calls Winsor the “firstborn” (p22) and the “eldest son” (p24), while Bien (p123) calls him “the oldest son”, and refers to Arthur as his "younger brother". And in both censuses,[3] Winsor is clearly older than Arthur. There is no doubt whatsoever that Arthur McCay, born in 1868, was Winsor McCay's younger brother, and this simple fact has obvious implications for determining when Winsor himself was born. >>> Little Silas (talk) 00:35, 6 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]


  • >>> Winsor McCay –-- His Life and Art (2005), by John Canemaker, is the definitive biography of Winsor McCay. Canemaker is a renowned animation historian and lecturer, as well as an Academy Award-winning filmmaker. In his book (page 22) he makes several specific statements relating to Winsor McCay's birth (see following item). These can be briefly summarized as follows:
  • Winsor McCay was his parents' firstborn child.
  • He was probably born in Canada in 1867.
  • His younger brother Arthur was born in 1868.
Given these facts from Canemaker, competent readers can decide for themselves whether McCay's birth after 1868 is possible, or impossible.
The simple question is, was the firstborn Winsor McCay born before his younger brother Arthur, or after? The answer is obvious.
>>>Little Silas (talk) 06:54, 27 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]


  • >>> The best collection of Winsor McCay’s animated films is found on the dvd Winsor McCay: The Master Edition (Milestone/Image, 2004). This disk features contributions by John Canemaker, McCay’s principal biographer, including a documentary called Remembering Winsor McCay (1976), and a voice-over commentary on McCay’s films.
In his commentary for Little Nemo (1911), Canemaker makes the following unambiguous statement:
“Winsor McCay was born in 1867, and he died in 1934.”
>>>Little Silas (talk) 06:23, 28 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]


  • >>> Canemaker calls the first major section of his McCay biography "Phase One: 1867 to 1903", emphasizing his belief that McCay was born in 1867.
He also makes this statement on page 15: "In 1914 Winsor McCay was forty-seven years old." Using simple arithmetic, this means that McCay was born in 1867.
Likewise, Canemaker states that McCay was 13 in 1880 (p24), 19 in 1886 (p28), 22 in 1889 (p33), 24 in 1891 (p45), etc. These statements mean, without exception, that McCay was born in 1867.
It is clear beyond any doubt that John Canemaker believes Winsor McCay was born in 1867.
>>>Little Silas (talk) 05:47, 29 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]


John Canemaker on Winsor McCay's Birth

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John Canemaker is Winsor McCay's principal biographer. His magnificent book, Winsor McCay --- His Life and Art (2005), is the touchstone reference on every aspect of McCay, and is the main reference source for the McCay article. Canemaker has this to say about Winsor McCay's birth:


>>> Page 22 <<<

  • Certainly Robert and Janet McKay had particularly good and even deep feelings toward the older gentleman, for they named their firstborn after him: Zenas Winsor McKay.
  • The exact date and place of birth of the child who became Winsor McCay are uncertain because of lack of documentation. His grave marker in Brooklyn reads 1869, the same date he indicated to a 1910 Brooklyn census taker. Late in life, however, he insisted to friends and wrote in a magazine article that he was born in Spring Lake on September 26, 1871. His birth records may have been destroyed in a disastrous fire in Spring Lake in May 1893, which burned a school, several homes and businesses, and the Baptist and Methodist churches.
  • A different (and probably correct) date and place of birth are found in both the 1870 and 1880 Michigan census reports, which indicate that Zenas W. McKay was born in 1867 in Canada. Apparently Janet, while pregnant, chose to make the long and arduous journey back to her family in Ontario for the birth, but a search for Canadian birth records has proved futile.
.....
  • From 1879 to 1881, the Michigan Business Directory listed Robert McKay's occupation as “retail grocer,” and by then his family had grown to include two more children, both born in Michigan: Arthur in 1868 and Mae in 1876.


>>> Page 263 <<<

Chronology

1867: Winsor Zenas McKay born in Canada.
.....
1868: Brother, Arthur, born.
1876: Sister, Mae, born.


To summarize, Canemaker says:

  • Winsor McCay was his parents' firstborn child.
  • The exact date of his birth is uncertain, but he was probably born in 1867.
  • The McCays had two more children by c1880, Arthur and Mae.
  • Winsor's younger brother Arthur was born in 1868.


The point here is to provide pertinent information from a respected source, so readers can better assess the disputed question of Winsor McCay's birth year.

>>> 2602:306:3134:6180:848E:9E67:8EE5:670A (talk) 02:28, 20 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

>>> 2602:306:3134:6180:848E:9E67:8EE5:670A (talk) 00:36, 20 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

>>> 2602:306:3134:6180:848E:9E67:8EE5:670A (talk) 16:51, 19 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]


  • Here's what McCay has to say:
    "The exact date and place of birth of the child who became Winsor McCay are uncertain because of lack of documentation."
    Canemaker avoids making any conclusions, and states nothing more strongly than that an 1867 birth in Ontario is "probably correct but a search for Canadian birth records has proved futile." Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 21:44, 19 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • >>> I have no idea what you're carrying on about. I was responding to your line, above: "Here's what McCay has to say." You need to calm down. 2602:306:3134:6180:848E:9E67:8EE5:670A (talk) 07:42, 20 June 2015 (UTC)
  • It's very telling what you selectively choose to highlight. What is important to Wikipedia is what I've excerpted above. At no point does Canemaker ever simply say he was born in 1867, for the simple reason that no proof of that date exists. The fact that McCay himself gave an alternate date on a later census that was accepted without question tells us all we need to know about the reliability of these censuses. Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 02:11, 20 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • He is indeed the source, and has listed in detail all the reasons why no definite claim can be made about McCay's birthdate or birthplace, and even explains why: "The exact date and place of birth of the child who became Winsor McCay are uncertain because of lack of documentation." How many more fucking times does this have to be quoted at you? Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 06:05, 20 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • >>> Why do you keep ranting about 1867? I'm not promoting it, just quoting Canemaker, the expert, who says a birth in 1867 is probable, but not certain. Meaning it's a good bet, but not a sure thing. I don't dispute that here, and I'm certainly not personally convinced of a birth in 1867. I'm just trying to learn as much about this issue as possible. You're being hysterically defensive about this, for no good reason. 2602:306:3134:6180:848E:9E67:8EE5:670A (talk) 07:26, 20 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • >>> A competent reader would see the word “firstborn” and know that it means “the oldest child”, and that any siblings are therefore younger. A reader with any sense at all would know that firstborn Winsor McCay could not be born after his younger brother Arthur, who was born in 1868. Given Canemaker's facts, any competent, sensible reader would conclude that Winsor McCay's birth after 1868 is obviously impossible. >>> Little Silas (talk) 06:43, 11 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]


Laura Bien on Winsor McCay's Birth

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Winsor McCay left home in 1886 to study business and art in Ypsilanti, Michigan. His time there is covered by Laura Bien in her Hidden History of Ypsilanti (2011). In a section titled “Little Nemo in Ypsilanti” (pp 123-25), she has this to say about McCay's birth:

  • To this industrious hive (Ypsilanti) in 1886 came the dreamy young artist Zenas Winsor McCay. Born in Canada in 1867, Zenas was the oldest son of Robert and Jeanette. Soon after his birth, the family moved to Spring Lake village in Michigan's Ottawa County near Muskegon.
  • The 1870 census lists twenty-eight-year-old Robert as a teamster, twenty-eight-year-old Jeanette as a homemaker, Zenas as three and younger brother Arthur as two. The 1880 census lists Robert as a grocer with three children: twelve-year-old Zenas, ten-year-old Arthur and four-year-old Mary. Robert also worked in a lumber mill.

Laura Bien's statements concerning Winsor McCay's birth can be summarized as follows:

  • Winsor McCay was born in Canada in 1867.
  • Winsor was his parents' firstborn, followed by Arthur, then Mary.
  • The 1870 U.S. Census lists Winsor as 3, and Arthur as 2.
  • The 1880 U.S. Census lists Winsor as 12, Arthur as 10, and Mary as 4.

>>> Little Silas (talk) 06:52, 3 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]


History merge

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I have merged in the history from User talk:2602:306:3134:6180:848e:9e67:8ee5:670a. I will delete the redirect, so any future editor who gets that IP is not confused with you. Note that it is not possible to reassign your old edits and attribute them to your new user name -- the wiki software simply does not support doing so. DES (talk) 03:46, 23 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

  1. ^ Canemaker (2005) p22
  2. ^ Bien (2011) p123
  3. ^ Bien (2011) p123
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