User talk:Izzu11

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Hello, Izzu11, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions, especially what you did for Charley Chase (pornographic actress). I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are some pages that you might find helpful:

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I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Please sign your messages on discussion pages using four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically insert your username and the date. If you need help, check out Wikipedia:Questions, ask me on my talk page, or ask your question on this page and then place {{help me}} before the question. Again, welcome! Logan _Talk ^{Contributions} 17:37, 8 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Rita Ora guest appearances

Hey, Izzu11. It appears that we may have a slight disagreement as to what exactly constitutes a guest appearance that can be listed in a Wikipedia discography. I'll therefore try to explain my point of view in more detail, so you understand it in a way that a tiny edit summary can't and hopefully at least see why I made those changes even if you don't agree. I came across this issue when I first edited Rita Ora's discography: I have slim to no interest in her music but even I'm aware that she does indeed sing on those two Craig David songs. My ears won't lie to me. There have been other similar, odd cases when artists have not been "officially" (I'll explain what I mean by this later) given an artist credit, even if they are obviously there for everyone to hear – consider André 3000's verse on the Lil Wayne song "Interlude", or every single guest rapper or singer on Yeezus except for the big dude in the clouds. They have clearly performed on this song (perhaps not God), as you have correctly pointed out with these Rita Ora appearances. So why don't we list them?

This actually made me think a little (editors who challenge ideas and guidelines are always going to be beneficial to more fixed, difficult-to-reason-with ones), and I've come up with this response: if we credited every single person who performs on a song all of the time, where would we stop? Would we have to credit every single member of the gospel choirs on "Get By" by Talib Kweli, "We Don't Care" by Kanye West, or the animals who were recorded for "Pigs" by Pink Floyd? And would we have to mention other musicians as well? Having a situation where we list songs as "Kanye West featuring Common, Malik Yusef, Gospel Choir Member 1, Gospel Choir Member 2, Sound Engineer 3, Man Who Plays A Tambourine In The Background, etc." would be very messy. It makes sense just to stick to the "official" credits that record labels have designated to records for consistency: that is, information listed on single covers, in the album's liner notes or on radio release schedules. Sticking to official designations seems the most consistent and sensible thing to do with other types of music articles: nearly every article written about The Beatles refers to it as The White Album, but we still call it The Beatles because a) that's what it's actually called and b) the cover, and The Beatles themselves, have made this clear and plain.

The sources that an artist's contributions are mentioned in, again, is obviously crucial. You mention that Ora's Billboard biography notes that she made these two appearances. Yes, but magazine/website articles or things like interviews aren't the best source for guest appearances – anyone can appear on a song and someone can then say that they were then on the song, but it doesn't mean that they are actually officially credited for it, which Ora wasn't. (Occasionally, as in Kesha discography, an artist has provided backing or uncredited vocals to so many songs that a section has been created for those works separately. However, as Ora's other work doesn't really extend beyond these two songs, I haven't done this as it isn't extensive enough to be considered separately (i.e. for the same reason Jay-Z doesn't have a production discography, as virtually the only song he is known to have a production credit for is "Coming Home"). If she provides backing vocals for many songs in the future (and they can be as reliably sourced as these two), then a section can be made. But not yet.)

Oh, and another thing: I replaced your YouTube references for those videos because they didn't verify the directors (which the references already in place did do). The use of YouTube as a reference is questionable anyway, and I try to avoid it whenever possible unless it is a bonafide official upload by the artist (or whoever/whatever I'm writing about). See WP:YOUTUBE for more information.

I hope that was an adequate explanation who why I made those changes. I won't revert them back yet: if you want to discuss anything on what I've said, please tell me first, then I'll make the changes. Happy editing! I Am Rufus • Conversation is a beautiful thing. 09:42, 18 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Vevo does not work everywhere on this planet, that's why I changed the links in the first place. Plus the link for "Torn Apart" wasn't even a link. Anyway, I replaced them with new ones to show the directors also, so it shouldn't be a problem now. And yes, I know not all the sources are "reliable" by Wikipedia standards but until somebody finds better ones or ones that actually work, regadless of your region, they will have to do. As for those credits on Craig David's songs, yes, she wasn't officially credited on the singles (even though she did sing live both Awkward as well as Where's Your Love) but she did get credit for the Where's Your Love official video posted on David's official YouTube channel. I took down the singles, but I won't take down the video. I couldn't any info about the director yet, but I'll keep searching. Oh yeah, I cut the "Better than you" cause I initially thought it was released as a single by Conor Maynard. Apparently it wasn't, so it's back on the article. Izzu11 (talk) 17:39, 18 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

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