Avant coast

I have added a "{{prod}}" template to the article Avant coast, suggesting that it be deleted according to the proposed deletion process. All contributions are appreciated, but I don't believe it satisfies Wikipedia's criteria for inclusion, and I've explained why in the deletion notice (see also "What Wikipedia is not" and Wikipedia's deletion policy). You may contest the proposed deletion by removing the {{dated prod}} notice, but please explain why you disagree with the proposed deletion in your edit summary or on its talk page. Also, please consider improving the article to address the issues raised. Even though removing the deletion notice will prevent deletion through the proposed deletion process, the article may still be deleted if it matches any of the speedy deletion criteria or it can be sent to Articles for Deletion, where it may be deleted if consensus to delete is reached. Resurgent insurgent 07:56, 2 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

AfD Nomination: Avant coast

Hello, and welcome to Wikipedia! We welcome and appreciate your contributions, but all Wikipedia articles must meet our criteria for inclusion (see What Wikipedia is not and Deletion policy). Since it does not seem to me that Avant coast meets these criteria, I have started a discussion about whether this article should be kept or deleted.

Your opinion on whether this article meets the inclusion criteria is welcome. Please contribute to the discussion by adding your comments at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Avant coast. Don't forget to add four tildes (~~~~) at the end of each of your comments to sign them.

Discussions such as these usually last five days. In the meantime, you are free to edit the content of the article. Please do not remove the "articles for deletion" template (the box at the top). When the discussion has concluded, an administrator will consider all comments and decide whether or not to delete the article. Resurgent insurgent 15:18, 8 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

re: Your note on the AfD for Avant coast

Hi there, Not the guy,

I noticed your article, Avant coast, in the deletion list and also your questions as to why it is being reviewed for deletion and would like to point you to the policies and guidelines that are relevant. I could explain it all point by point, but you seem an intelligent and thoughtful person so I will give you the shortcuts to the info and let you read it yourself. Afterwards, if you have any questions I would be glad to answer them.

The criteria are spelled out in WP:NOTE, the guidelines for what is considered notable and how that notability is established.

These criteria are good in that they establish a baseline for inclusion (weeding out endless amounts of crap), but less good in that they create a systemic bias in the system (see WP:BIAS).

I recently explained to another user, who had created an article about a new board game he invented, alot of this in detail and you can read that exchange at User talk:Juxtapono.

There are many WP:THIS and WP:THAT pages, and experienced Wikipedians throw them around in deletion debates and this can be off-putting, but there is really no other way to understand WP than to read the material. It takes awhile to 'get it.'

With your knowledge of, and passion for music there are many ways for you to make valuable contributions to WP and I hope that you will become a contributor here. We need you. Please don't be put off by the abruptness of others. Actually, reading the debates in WP:AFD and following the links quoted is a great way to see what is going on and why, and its much easier to do that when the article is not your own.

Thank you for going to the time and effort to create an article, and please feel free to ask me any questions that come up after you have a chance to read some of the stuff I've mentioned. Posting a note here (I have this page on my watch list) or on my talk page will get my attention.

--killing sparrows 19:08, 8 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

author's response to killing sparrows

Thanks for the detailed response. It's definitely a learning curve. So, if I understand this correctly, at LEAST one other reputable source would be required to recognize this organization in print before it will be acceptable. That's a bummer. Sadly, this criteria will remove much of what I have to offer from consideration. For example, there is a fine baritone saxophonist named Tate Houston who appeared on very few records. Jazz insiders know him, but most of what I've been able to establish on his history is from discussions with musicians who knew him. There is simply no published work on guys like this. Sadly, I don't think WP is going to work as an outlet for this knowledge, so this stuff will probably die with me. That is sad. Perhaps I should start a site about the music and hope it is someday recognized as a viable source. I hope this doesn't come off as flippant, as that is not my intent. I'm trying to avoid tones of "crap exists" in my argument, but it's hard not to feel that way.Im not the guy 19:24, 8 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Hi there,

No, it doesn't come off as flippant, and yes, it is sad that people such as Tate Houston may not be eligible for inclusion here, especially so in that porn stars and Pokemon cards may have lenghty articles about them.

Remember that the notability guidelines are just that, guidelines, and exceptions can be made. I can think of many ways to establish notability such as you writing an article for a magazine (which then becomes a reference!), finding album covers that credit him and speak to his work, etc., but I wouldn't know where to look for specifics. And please do start a website to document your knowledge or add it to an existing archive of another form. Remember that sources may not accessable through the net but still accepted, but they must be found.

Also, there are many WP project groups that could use your knowledge to improve existing articles on Jazz, and members may have ideas or resources that could be helpful. Browse the pages related to the topic and look at the article's talk pages and I'm sure you will find others that share your passion.

Wikipedia is a work in process and it's current and future form will reflect the passion and committment of those who are involved in that process. Where else could someone like me, with no degree or acedemic credentials but a wealth of time, enthusiasm and knowledge, be considered a serious contributor?

You know where I live, so stop by anytime! --killing sparrows 20:17, 8 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Killing Sparrows, thanks for the tip

In your initial post, you advised me not to be put off by the abruptness of others. In the AfD section I posted the following "Is there any step that will save this entry? The organization is doing some very important, artist-centered work in New England and if there is some way to get this done, I'll do it. I'll lobby some newspapers and TV shows to cover it if need be. I'm an enthusiast of this type of music and this organization, IMHO, deserves to be here.Im not the guy 22:17, 8 April 2007 (UTC)"

Which was met with the rather terse and snarky response:

"* Please don't... newspaper editors evaluate their subjects' notability quite well without people lobbying them. If in due time anyone outside of Wikipedia writes about Avant Coast, we can have an article on them; until then, no. Resurgent insurgent 00:39, 9 April 2007 (UTC)"

I find the arrogance of the tenor rather uncalled for. If this is what Wikipedia stands for, I'll be happy to avoid it and advise my students to do the same. I have a low tolerance for this sort of foolishness. I'm new here, I'm going to keep my mouth shut, but I'm also not going to waste a lot of my valuable time on a project driven by people as rude as this. Social skills are as important to our society as information.

-ticked off

Im not the guy 21:38, 9 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Wow, I am truly sorry that this person responded to your perfectly reasonable comment in such a way, but please don't judge Wikipedia or most Wikipedians by his rudeness. My experience is that the vast majority of people here are helpful and friendly, there is even a policy that expressly states, 'Please don't bite the newbies,' at WP:BITE and another that boils down to 'Don't be a dick!' at WP:DICK!

I am going to address this with the person who left you this comment, whether or not he apologizes, I hope you will give us a chance. My advice right now is to let it go and see what the outcome is. The article can be recreated at any time in the future when the sources are there to establish notability. I would be glad to help with that or in any other way I can as you look around and see what this place has to offer and how you can use WP and even contribute.

If you are going to judge us on the basis of one person, use me!

Thanks, --killing sparrows 22:45, 9 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Addendum Reading the comment from Resurgent I don't think rudeness was intended, but may have come across that way. Another important thing at WP is 'Assume good faith,' so lets assume that here. I'll mention this to him and I really think this was perception rather than intention, let's see.

From Resurgent insurgent

I apologise if I have come across in the AfD as rude. However, Wikipedia insists rather firmly - sometimes too firmly for my liking as well - that even if we know things are true, they must be mentioned in published sources before we can have articles on them. There is still hope for this article if any time now, or in the future, multiple (2 or more) newspapers or other reliable source writes about Avant Coast in detail. This would make the group notable. Even if the sources write about the group after the article is deleted, you can make a undelete request when they appear. Again, I apologize for being rude, and sincerely hope this deletion discussion will not put you off contributing to Wikipedia. —Resurgent insurgent 2007-04-10 00:33Z

From im_not_the_guy

Thanks for the responses from you both. My bad for allowing my feathers to be easily ruffled; one of the great short-comings of this medium is the way in which typing comes woefully short of representative expression (particularly with this type of notation). Please don't read into my long silences on these subjects as I'm not always able to login as much as I'd like (power outage this week). I'll keep my eyes open for further articles on Avant Coast. As you can probably tell, I'm very passionate about what these guys are doing. Thanks again for the responses.Im not the guy 17:20, 20 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]