User talk:Henry Doktorski

Hello, Henry Doktorski! Welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions to this free encyclopedia. If you decide that you need help, check out Getting Help below, ask me on my talk page, or place {{helpme}} on your talk page and ask your question there. Please remember to sign your name on talk pages by clicking or using four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically produce your username and the date. Finally, please do your best to always fill in the edit summary field. Below are some useful links to facilitate your involvement. Happy editing! FlowerpotmaN·(t) 03:20, 24 December 2007 (UTC) Getting started A tutorial • Our five pillars • Getting mentored How to: edit a page • upload and use images Getting help Frequently asked questions • Tips Where to ask questions or make comments Request administrator attention Policies and guidelines Neutral point of view • No original research Verifiability • Reliable sources • Citing sources What Wikipedia is not • Biographies of living persons Manual of Style • Three-revert rule • Sock puppetry Copyrights • Policy for non-free content • Image use policy External links • Spam • Vandalism Deletion policy • Conflict of interest • Notability The community Build consensus • Resolve disputes Assume good faith • Civility • Etiquette No personal attacks • No legal threats Community Portal • Village pump Signpost • IRC channels • Mailing lists Writing articles Be bold in editing • Develop an article The perfect article • Manual of style Stubs • Categories • Disambiguation Pages needing attention • Peer review Miscellaneous User name • User pages • Talk pages Clean up: General - Spam - Vandalism Join a WikiProject • Translation Useful templates • Tools • User scripts

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No problem. Glad to be of help. FlowerpotmaN·(t) 03:29, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

Kirtanananda Swami

Wow, you have really improved this article. The last time I looked it was little more than a stub! Best wishes, Gouranga(UK) (talk) 15:54, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

I think it is a really sad story. Andries (talk) 23:21, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Richard Rose

What's the point in all the Keith Ham/Krishna material you added to the Richard Rose article? Several people have spent a few hundred hours writing and editing and arguing over its content. You will find all that discussion in the Talk page archives. The general principle hammered out was that Wikipedia is an encyclopedia and not a biography. Meaning that every bit of historical information is not necessary in an encyclopedia, and in fact is distracting to the reader. The guy was tricked and signed a bad lease. So what? The reason for the article is to do justice to the efforts of Richard Rose in reaching sincere spiritual seekers with his unique teachings and method. We who knew him well could fill endless web pages of anecdotes and personal stories but this would be distracting from the purpose of an encyclopedia article. Furthermore, past fights over this page resulted in the removal of other such details and those contributors would cry foul if your's were included. Apparently you are an expert on the life of convicted criminal and alleged child-molester Kieth Ham but what does it add to the message of Richard Rose to associate him with said criminal? If your intent is to make a positive contribution to the message of Richard Rose, then I don't see how this helps. There is ample material on the web for those whose interest is caught and wish to look further into the details of Richard Rose's colorful personality and life. If your intent is to draw readers away from the Richard Rose page by references to pages you have authored, then your "contribution" falls somewhere between ego and spam. If your intent is to provide salacious details that apparently titillate you, and which you wish to burden the reader with, then please find another forum. This last note is personal. But my main point is that your addition violates Wikipedia principles by adding unnecessary detail. Believe me, I and other people have a thousand times more information than you do but we chose not to complicate the article by including it. Please respond either here or on my talk page. Thank you. Steve Harnish (talk) 03:39, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

ISKCON work group

Hello Henrydoktorsky. I see you have made contributions to ISKCON related articles. If you are interested, there is a discussion concerning an ISKCON work group located at, ISKCON work group or subproject. Any thoughts you have would be appreciated. Thanks. Ism schism (talk) 19:55, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Image copyright problem with Image:Kirtanananda2008march4.jpg

Image Copyright problem

Thank you for uploading Image:Kirtanananda2008march4.jpg. However, it currently is missing information on its copyright status. Wikipedia takes copyright very seriously. It may be deleted soon, unless we can determine the license and the source of the image. If you know this information, then you can add a copyright tag to the image description page.

If you have any questions, please feel free to ask them at the media copyright questions page. Thanks again for your cooperation. NOTE: once you correct this, please remove the tag from the image's page. STBotI (talk) 18:48, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Prabhupada article - call for copyedit

You were one of the editors who contributed or discussed the above article. Since the article has stabilised and I have added proper references as well as provided a NPOVs references, I suggest final edits by the editors who were contributing to the article. Following the general proofing and copyedit, I would suggest nominating it towards GA (Good Article). Wikidās-ॐ 14:22, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Guido Deiro figure to Commons?

Hi Henry! I saw that you had added a photo of Guido Deiro to en-wikipedia. Just in case you would add pictures in the future: if you would be able to add them directly to Wikipedia Commons, they would also be usable for other language versions as well (such as the Finnish one, you know :-). I try to move it there when I have more time... But if you can do that meanwhile, I would be very grateful.Yours.Tetopa (talk) 22:16, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

New Vrindaban

Hello Henry, I've enjoyed your contributions to the articles dealing with the Hare Krishnas in West Virginia; New Vrindaban, Prabhupada's Palace of Gold, and the notorious Kirtanananda Swami. Also, I've really enjoyed your web page entitled New Vrindaban: The Black Sheep of ISKCON. On one of the talk pages you expressed that you were writing a book on these topics, and I think that sounds like a great idea. I hope you include all of those nice pictures in your book as well. I too am in the Pittsburgh area, and hopefully when your book is finished you will have a book signing somewhere in the city so that I can purchase a signed copy from you. Maybe the CP will do an interview with you about your book, since you are a Pittsburgher. There is something I want to ask you regarding New Vrindaban. On your web page it says that they were planning to build a larger temple, and there's a picture of large steel beams and concrete in the ground. That temple was never completed due to the legal problems that Kirtanananda and the community were having at that time, but I was wondering where in relation to the Palace of Gold was this unfinished temple located? Are there still remains of this incomplete structure sticking out of the ground? I hope your book contains a map of New Vrindaban to show where everything is in relation to what exists and what was planned. Also, I hope it includes a diagram of the proposed "City of God", as well as any diagrams of the proposed "seven temples on seven hills". Geneisner (talk) 07:01, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

Dear Geneisner, Thank you for your words of kind appreciation.

Yes, I have created a map of the NV environs for my forthcoming book. I have just now uploaded this map to Wikipedia and added a link to it on the New Vrindaban page. You can see the positions of the important sites: old Vrindaban farm, Bahulaban, Palace of Gold, Current temple complex, site of proposed Temple or Cathedral of Understanding.

Actually legal problems were not directly responsible for abandoning Cathedral construction; it was lack of sufficient manpower and funding. Indirectly, yes.

The steel girders of the Maha-Dwaram erected on Janmastami, September 3, 1988, and the six Verdin cast bronze bells, weighing a total of 16,800 pounds, which were hung in March 1992 were sold probably around 1996. Nothing remains at the temple site, except for a large flat area and cliff cut into the top of the hill which was excavated, and an incredibly huge pile of rocks which were dumped in the hollow below. It resembles an old abandoned strip mine.

Henrydoktorski (talk) 12:50, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for sharing the map, Henry, it's quite informative. I've visited the Palace of Gold before and driven out that road, so that means I've been by the location of the proposed Temple or Cathedral of Understanding, but didn't realize it because there wasn't anything there at that point (nor had I previously known that a bigger temple had ever been planned there.) I think I remember seeing a proposed design for the bigger Temple on your website somewhere, but were there ever any blueprints for all seven of the proposed "seven temples on seven hills"? I once heard someone who visited the Palace say that there was a picture of the proposed "City of God", including designs for the "seven temples on seven hills". Is this accurate?

I noticed that the old Temple of Understanding is now called the Sri Sri Radha Vrindavan Chandra Temple. It's the same place with a different sign on the front. Do you know approximately when they changed that?

I remember the first time I visited the Palace of Gold, around 1996, and I saw that huge statue of Prabhupada and was really impressed by it. My friends and I were shown around by one of the devotees or Swamis, or somebody, and you could even go behind the statue and walk inside of it. I was impressed by New Vrindaban, so I took some more friends of mine to see it in 1997, but was disappointed that the large statue of Prabhupada was no longer there. I asked one of the Krishna guys, "What happened to the statue?" and he smiled and sheepishly said something about ISKCON having made them destroy it because they felt it gave people the wrong impression that they worshiped Prabhupada rather than Krishna, and that it too closely resembled a giant statue of Buddha. I was astonished. I could hardly believe that anyone would destroy such a beautiful statue! I was briefly told that the place had been embroiled in some controversy (rumors of which I'd heard about for years anyway), and that ISKCON was trying to crack down on the community and regulate it more closely. Nevertheless, I couldn't understand how ISKCON could destroy a statue of Prabhupada! What about the wax statues of him in the temple and in the palace? What about the statues of Chaitanya and Nityananda? Fortunately, those other statues were not destroyed. I was glad to see that you had a picture of the old Prabhupada statue on your website.

As I've read your writings about Kirtanananda and Hayagriva, I sometimes wonder if Kirtanananda ever viewed his relationship with Hayagriva as being similar to that of the relationship of Chaitanya and Nityananda? When I think of those two statues at New Vrindaban, it makes me wonder. There are a number of negative things that people have said about Kirtanananda, some of them make obvious sense too, but there are two "controversial" things about him that I am not really opposed to in a philosophical sense: One is his notion of "interfaith" activities, which I think makes good sense (and ironically, is what the Krishna folks are trying to do more of these days). The other is the fact that he is/was a homosexual. I don't find fault in someone just for their sexual orientation, as long as they are expressing their lifestyle with other consenting adults. Unfortunately, in the case of Kirtanananda, it seems that he was not always expressing his lifestyle with other consenting adults. Also, he was supposed to be a "celibate guru", which is unrealistic for most people (look at all the problems in the Catholic Church along such lines.) As for "interfaith", some of the more "orthodox" Krishna people still put Kirtanananda down for having statues of Jesus in the temple along with the Hindu deities, or for trying different music and wearing different robes, etc. I personally don't see anything wrong with that. I think that it's good when religions try and see the potential Universalism of all. But then again, I'm not a religious fundamentalist in any way, shape or form. I'm basically Agnostic and not really religious at all, but I like the notions and philosophies found in Universalism, Pantheism, Panentheism, and Nondualism.

Back to the map that you kindly posted, I'm not sure I know what everything is on there. Of course, Bahulaban is the old farmhouse and barns that were part of the initial settlement. These can be seen as one is driving towards the Palace of Gold. It's a shame that this part was in such poor shape the last time I visited New Vrindaban. I have no idea what Madhuban is, but on the map it looks as if that is also on the way to the palace. I know what the Palace of Gold and the RVC Temple/Lodge is, of course, but I do not know what Rose's Ashram is, nor what New Goshalla, New Nandagram, Old Nandagram, Talaban, or Khadiraban are either. Also, I see a place in the center called Vrindaban, and I don't know what that could be. Is that where the Swami lived? Also, I was wondering where the Gurukula school was located? It seems they don't take us tourists on the extended tour. I bet you could give a pretty good tour, Henry, even of the most controversial places, but maybe they wouldn't appreciate you giving those particular types of tours to the general public.

What happened to the six Verdin cast bronze bells after New Vrindaban sold them? Also, do you perform musically in the Pittsburgh area much these days?

The most comical part of your story is when you said that the Krishnas stole some money out of the Moonies van one time when they were visiting the Palace, and then there was another part about them fighting over money while driving away and someone was holding on to the money out the window. Haha, I laughed for a good five minutes after reading that, your book is sure to please because you seem to tell things as they were. I'm definitely looking forward to getting a copy. I already feel that you've helped enlighten me to the true story of New Vrindaban more than anyone else up to this point, and I want to thank you for that as well as your participation in these articles. Perhaps we can now work on improving the New Vrindaban article, because it seems that someone has tagged it with many (perhaps too many) "citation needed" tags, and at the top of the page it says "The neutrality of this article is disputed." I'm sure you can find many good citations that can help improve the article. Hopefully we can work on getting this matter resolved and the article improved. Good luck on your book, Henry, and I hope I can attend your book signing at some point here in Pittsburgh. Thanks again, take care, and peace. Geneisner (talk) 10:04, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Dear Geneisner,

You have asked many questions. I will try to answer to the best of my abilities.

Regarding the map: In 1967 Richard Rose (mystic), a spiritual seeker who had achieved enlightenment, wrote a letter to the San Francisco Oracle inviting other spiritual seekers to come to his West Virginia farm to start an ashram of sorts. Keith Ham (Kirtanananda Swami) and Howard Wheeler (Hayagriva) visited during March 1968. At the time both were AWOL from ISKCON. After visiting, Wheeler returned to teaching college classes in Wilkes Barre, but KS stayed on. However, there must have been some disagreement between KS and Rose, for KS left Rose’s ashram and moved to Rose’s other property, an abandoned farm.

This was Vrindaban, also known today as the Old Vrindaban Farm, the original New Vrindaban settlement, a 2-mile walk up a muddy road. This was the extent of the community for 2 years until the Madhaban farmhouse was purchased in 1970 and Bahulaban was purchased in c. 1971. Bahulaban became the center of the community when the cows were moved there, and later the deities were moved during June 1972. The site of the Palace, Guruban, was purchased in 1973. The farmhouse at Madhuban was destroyed in 1978-79 to make room for the Palace entrance road. Bahulaban was mostly abandoned in 1984 when the current RVC Temple Complex and Lodge was opened.

Old Nandagram was the first schoolhouse for the children, and opened in 1976. This dilapidated building was retired in 1981 when the children moved to New Nandagram, a very nice structure. The Old Nandagram house was burned to the ground a few years ago to the delight of the former students.

The cows moved to the New Goshalla (Govardhana Dairy) in 1986-86. Khadiraban and Talaban are two other regions of New Vrindaban a little distance from the center of the community where mostly “fringies” lived. Tirtha, and Daruku and the murdered Chakradhari lived in this region.

You can read much of this in chapter 5 from my forthcoming book, which can be viewed at: http://henrydoktorski.com/nv/5_ISKCONs_First_Farm_Community.doc.

Giant Prabhupada Statue

Please do me a favor, and see if you can pinpoint the month and year you first visited NV and saw the giant Prabhupada statue. No one seems to remember when it was destroyed, and your memories will help me pinpoint the year with more accuracy.

I spoke to the person, in charge of heavy equipment, who allegedly destroyed the statue, and, although he would not speak to me about the details of its demolition, he admitted, “That wasn’t Prabhupada. That was a Maya-Prabhupada.”

“were there ever any blueprints for all seven of the proposed seven temples on seven hills?"

Some color paintings were commissioned around 1982-83 and published in Brijabasi Spirit after the NV Master Plan meetings. This was the Krishna-Land Theme Park, which included seven temples on seven hills.

“I noticed that the old Temple of Understanding is now called the Sri Sri Radha Vrindavan Chandra Temple. It's the same place with a different sign on the front. Do you know approximately when they changed that?”

It has always been Sri Sri Radha Vrindavan Chandra Temple, but during Kirtanananda Swami’s tenure as leader, Temple of Understanding was preferred as the name was less-foreign to Americans. I do not know when the sign was changed, but probably in the late 1990s when the community was accepted back in ISKCON.

“I sometimes wonder if Kirtanananda ever viewed his relationship with Hayagriva as being similar to that of the relationship of Chaitanya and Nityananda?” I’ve never heard of this, and if he ever entertained thoughts like this, he would never have spoken about it to others for fear of being ridiculed. Prabhupada many times condemned those who imagined themselves in the position of God or His confidential servants.

Regarding homosexuality, self-realized souls regard all sex as maya, except for limited and restricted sex only for procreating Krishna Conscious children. A brahmachari or sannyasi, however, must strictly avoid contact with all the objects of his sexual attraction, whether women, girls, men or boys. As his heart becomes cleansed from desire for sense gratification, he will eventually give up all attraction for any form of sex, and consider it disgusting. So the desire for homosexual relations can be tolerated, as long as such desires are not acted upon. However, KS secretly had relations with young men and boys, as we are discovering. This made him a great cheater; for he preached against sex, and even wrote a book: “The Joy of No Sex.”

The statue of Jesus in the temple offended many fundamentalist Christians and Catholics, who believe Jesus is the only way. It also offended fundamentalist Vaishnavas, who believed Jesus was not on the same high spiritual platform as Srila Prabhupada.

I don’t think anyone kept track of the Verdin bells. Regarding my career, you can see some highlights at http://henrydoktorski.com. Currently I am working as organist at Grace Lutheran Church in Rochester, Pennsylvania.

“The most comical part of your story is when you said that the Krishnas stole some money out of the Moonies van one time when they were visiting the Palace, and then there was another part about them fighting over money while driving away and someone was holding on to the money out the window.” I was the driver of the vehicle who tried to rip off that particular Moonie in the parking lot. Lucky he didn't fall off and get killed.

Regarding improving the NV article, yes, it needs work, but it will be a big job! Pax. Henrydoktorski (talk) 13:28, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Hello Henry, and thanks again for your correspondence. I remember the first time I met a Hare Krishna devotee in person. On Friday, September 20, 1996, a friend and I were outside of the Newport Music Hall on High Street in Columbus, Ohio. We were there to see the band Bad Religion perform, and I know the exact date because I still have the ticket stub (which I got signed by Greg Graffin after the show.) Anyway, before the show, we were out on the street just talking, and a Hare Krishna devotee walked up and started talking with us. He was a nice guy, and he had some books and wasn't too pushy or anything. We were in a good mood, so we talked with the guy and he showed us a little advertisement regarding a class entitled "Introduction To Applied Vedic Culture" through "The Institute of Gaudiya Vaisnavism." He turned the card over, and there was a picture of Prabhupada and the Palace of Gold in Moundsville, West Virginia. I said, "Hey, I've heard of that place! I've always wanted to go there too." The devotee smiled and was glad of the recognition. I remember once in the 1980s my mom saw a pamphlet advertising the Palace of Gold at a rest stop somewhere in Eastern Ohio. My family was in the area vacationing and looking for things to do. My dad didn't care either way, but my mom changed her mind about visiting after hearing rumors about the place. People half-seriously said things like, "If you go out there, you might never be seen again." Of course, she probably knew better since her uncle had visited the palace once, but I think the rumors still worried her enough that she emphatically decided we were not going out there. Not only that, but she also didn't want to go because 1.) they weren't Christians, and 2.) she heard that they worshiped a wax statue of a dead Indian. But the talk of the wax statue of the dead Indian actually intrigued me, so when I asked her later that day if we were still thinking about going out there to see it, she said, "no." Anyway, about eight years later, I'm standing in front of the Newport Music Hall in Columbus, Ohio, and talking with a real live Hare Krishna. I asked him about the Palace of Gold, and he says that we should visit and bring as many of our friends as possible. I promised him that we would definitely visit. We kinda felt sorry for the guy being out there and peddling his religion on High Street like that, so my friend and I each bought a book from him for five dollars each. He handed me The Journey of Self-Discovery, and he handed my friend, The Science of Self-Realization (or maybe it was Beyond Birth and Death? I can't remember, and neither does my friend, but I remember thinking that I had gotten the lesser interesting title. However, I think my book might have had a more interesting picture inside.) I still have my book, as well as the little card that he gave me which advertised, "A Step Toward Enlightenment", and says, "Contact Danavir Dasa - Institute of Gaudiya Vaisnavism at New Vrindavan, RD 1, BOX 319 - Moundsville, WV 26041". So, after that my friend and I walked to the music hall, and one of our other friends was in there and we said, "Hey, look at our wild Hare Krishna books!", and he replied, "God, I hate those people! Why the hell did you buy books from those crazy nuts?" I replied, "Because I want to go see the Palace of Gold, and now I have an address for it." He looked at us with those books, laughed, and said, "You're fuckin' crazy to want to go there! They'll probably have you floating down the river next." That was on Friday, September 20, 1996.

A couple weeks or so after that, another friend of ours was having a party and we were laughing and whooping it up into the wee hours of the morning. Wine was splashing all over the place. At some point during the revelry, I had convinced everyone that we were driving all the way to Moundsville, West Virginia, the next morning. A little bit later the host of the party yelled that if everyone didn't fall asleep soon, then we weren't going to the Palace of Gold the next day. So, I got everyone quieted down so that they could pass out in their own corners in order to wake them up early for the morning drive. Ironically, or not, the host of the party was the son of a successful dairy farmer. His old man had told us a hilarious story once about the "crazy Swami and his freaks" coming out to see him, and he said that they had basically asked him if he would like to GIVE them a bunch of expensive farm equipment for free! Well, this didn't sit well with the old man, who had worked hard all his life on his farm, and he wasn't about to give a bunch of pricey farm equipment to any "religious nut cases looking for a free handout". He said that he told them to go away and to stay away. I remember once jokingly asking the old man, "Why didn't you ask them to make you the grand Swami?" He replied, "I already have enough fools to deal with around here as it is." Well, it didn't stop "fools" like me, his son, and four others from at least wanting to visit the Palace of Gold. Before we went, people would always warn us about going out to New Vrindaban. I remember people saying, "don't eat the food or drink the water there, they poison people." Later, I heard someone say that New Vrindaban had a Hepatitis outbreak at one point, before they treated the water or something like that. All of these things put some worry in our minds, but we were still determined to see this Palace of Gold for ourselves. We all woke up in the morning after the party, and piled into two different cars. I was in the passenger seat of the main car with the map, the son of the dairy farmer was driving, my friend who had been on the street with me the day we met the Hare Krishna was in the back seat, as was the other son of the dairy farmer. The second car contained another friend, as well as my sister. Off we drove, towards the hills of West Virginia. That was the first time I ever visited the Palace of Gold. We were excited and impressed, and I remember we all cheered when the palace first came into view. We had a good time, and the son of the dairy farmer even bought a bumper sticker that said "Prabhupada's Palace of Gold" on it. He later put that on his car, much to the chagrin of his father and others in our community, but much to the amusement and comical delight of me and our group of prankster friends. After we toured the Palace, we walked out to the large statue of Prabhupada. My friends pointed and laughed at a few beer cans on the ground, and the devotee tour guide said, "Not everyone obeys the rules in this community either." I shrugged my shoulders, smiled, and replied, "Oh well." I thought the statue was pretty neat. This was probably at some point in October of 1996. I have no idea the exact date. But after we saw the statue, we walked down the hill to the Temple and took a tour of it too. As we were walking out of the Temple, I ran into the same Hare Krishna devotee that I had spoken with on the street in Columbus, Ohio, on September 20, 1996. He recognized me and my friend from that encounter, and he was kind and let us all have lunch with him in the cafeteria. At first I noticed that some of my friends hesitated before eating any food, probably because they were worried that it might be poisoned, but after they saw that I didn't fall over they all ate some as well. It was a good meal. So, the large statue of Prabhupada was still up around October of 1996. I visited the Palace again with some other friends in mid Summer of 1997. The statue was no longer standing the second time I visited. That means the statue was taken down at some point between October of 1996 and mid Summer of 1997.

I found something you said to be quite interesting. You said, "Prabhupada many times condemned those who imagined themselves in the position of God or His confidential servants." Then, a little later, you said, "The statue of Jesus in the temple offended many fundamentalist Christians and Catholics, who believe Jesus is the only way. It also offended fundamentalist Vaishnavas, who believed Jesus was not on the same high spiritual platform as Srila Prabhupada."

Do most Vaishnavas view Prabhupada as being on a "high spiritual platform"? Do most Hindus view Prabhupada as being on a "high spiritual platform"? If so, how high? Surely not as high as Krishna, or Vishnu (the latter of which many Vaishnavas seem to view as the primal form, and see Krishna as an avatar of Vishnu.) Then there's Shaivism, whose main focus is the deity Shiva. To some, God is in all, including everyone, and according to that view we are all in the position of God and/or his "confidential servants". On the other hand, to most Christians, Jesus and God are one and the same (not just father and son, but one and the same.) Perhaps some Vaishnavas view Krishna and Vishnu as being one and the same as well, but according to the Mahābhārata, Krishna is killed due to some errors and, unlike Jesus, there's no mention of Krishna's resurrection in there as far as I know (though perhaps some believe he went to some sort of afterlife and/or merged back into the Vishnu form awaiting the next incarnation). Jesus was also killed, though Christians believe that he was pure and blameless, and that he rose from the dead. They believe that he is coming back to judge the living and the dead, and many Vaishnavas believe in Kalki, the tenth and final avatar of Vishnu who will come to end the present age of darkness and destruction known as Kali Yuga. Also, what I find interesting about the Hare Krishna movement is that many in it seem to place such strict sanctions on sex and sexuality, however, Krishna was a very erotic character according to the ancient texts. Not only with Radha, his main gopi lover, but also with many other gopis too. There's even one story where Krishna turns himself into 10,000 different selves and supposedly pleases (sexually) all of the gopis in the way that each of them wants to be pleasured. Not only that, but I read somewhere else that Krishna even had wives too. According to some texts, Krishna had 16,108 wives, of which eight were chief - including Rukmini, Satyabhama and Jambavati. That's a lot of wives! As for Prabhupada, before adopting the life of a pious renunciate, vanaprastha, in 1950, he was married with children and owned a small pharmaceutical business. He later took a vow of renunciation, sannyasa, in 1959 and started writing commentaries on Vaishnava scriptures. Jesus was supposedly the son of a carpenter, and Christians believe that he could walk on water, heal the sick, and raise the dead (so to them, I guess Jesus owned a small pharmaceutical business too.) Just some thoughts I found quite interesting. My favorite part in the Bhagavad Gita is when Krishna reveals his Vishvarupa form to Arjuna. On the other hand, my favorite Hindu scriptures so far are the Upanishads. All quite interesting. Geneisner (talk) 14:24, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

Dear Geneisner,

Thank you for your interesting story about visiting the Palace. For some reason, I’m not surprised that a Wikipedia editor would like to write long stories! :)

Regarding your last paragraph: You are asking very detailed questions. I will answer to the best of my abilities, although I am not a scholar. I hope I don't go on too long.

>Do most Vaishnavas view Prabhupada as being on a "high spiritual platform"? Do most Hindus view Prabhupada as being on a "high spiritual platform"?

I believe so.

>If so, how high?

First we must understand who we are: we are not our bodies, nor our minds, but we are non-material spirit souls dwelling within our material bodies. We are not male or female, black or white, American or Russian; we are pure spirit, possessing the qualities of eternity, knowledge and bliss, like Krishna. The symptom of the soul is consciousness, which is possessed by all living creatures.

“Know that which pervades the entire body is indestructible. No one is able to destroy the imperishable soul. Only the material body of the indestructible, immeasurable and eternal living entity is subject to destruction. . . . For the soul there is never birth nor death. Nor, having once been, does he ever cease to be. He is unborn, eternal, ever-existing, undying and primeval. He is not slain when the body is slain.”

Our body is like a piece of clothing; it covers us and serves an important function for a time, but when the clothe becomes old and worn out, we discard it without a second thought and put on a new garment. Similarly the soul leaves the body when the body can no longer provide a suitable home, and then it enters another body at conception. When the soul leaves the body it is called death. “As the embodied soul continually passes, in this body, from boyhood to youth to old age, the soul similarly passes into another body at death. The self-realized soul is not bewildered by such a change. . . . As a person puts on new garments, giving up old ones, similarly, the soul accepts new material bodies, giving up the old and useless ones.”

Prabhupada is a living entity (jivatma), as are all humans, including Jesus Christ (according to the Gaudiya-Vaishnavas), and other lower life forms, such as plants and animals, microbes, etc. and higher living entities, such as demi-gods and other powerful subtle celestial and astral beings. The jivatma is equal to the Supreme Lord in quality—both are spiritual beings—but unequal in quantity. We are tiny and finite; our consciousness is limited. The Supreme Lord is all-pervading and infinite, his consciousness is unlimited. He is the origin of all; he is supremely independent and he has a spiritual Satcitananda body.

The living entity can never become God. “Krishna, who is known as Govinda, is the Supreme Godhead. He has an eternal blissful spiritual body. He is the origin of all. He has no other origin and he is the prime cause of all causes.”

The Bhagavad-gita corroborates: “Of all that is material and all that is spiritual in this world, know for certain that I am both its origin and dissolution. . . . There is no truth superior to Me. Everything rests upon Me, as pearls are strung on a thread.”

“He [Krishna] is an undifferentiated entity as there is no distinction between potency and the possessor thereof. In His work of creation of millions of worlds, His potency remains inseparable. All the universes exist in Him, and He is present in his fullness in every one of the atoms that are scattered throughout the universe. Such is the primeval Lord Govinda whom I adore.”

Krishna is the original creator and father of all living beings. Vaishnavas understand that Krishna is the “God the Father” worshipped by Christians, the “God of Abraham” of the Jews, and the “One God” of Muslims. Not only are human beings his children, but all living entities, even the plants and animals. “It should be understood that all species of life . . . are made possible by birth in this material world, and that I am the seed-giving father.”

As the supreme omnipotent and omniscient being, Krishna personally dwells in his own transcendental abode—Goloka Vrindaban—in the spiritual sky beyond the coverings of the material universes, but he sometimes appears on this earth planet from time to time to re-establish the principles of religion, annihilate the irreligious, and give pleasure to his devotees.

>Surely not as high as Krishna, or Vishnu (the latter of which many Vaishnavas seem to view as the primal form, and see Krishna as an avatar of Vishnu.)

Yes, the finite living entity can never become God. Gaudiya-Vaishnavas understand that Krishna is non-different from Vishnu, but Vishnu and all the other Vishnu-tattva forms of God, are expansions of Krishna. Vaishnavism classifies itself as a monotheistic tradition, seeing the many forms of Vishnu as expansions or incarnations of the one Supreme God. “In the Vaishnava-sampradaya, some devotees worship Radha-Krishna, and others worship Sita-Rama and Lakshmi-Narayana. Some also worship Rukmini-Krishna. All of these are the same, and all of the devotees are Vaishnavas. Whether one chants Hare Krishna or Hare Rama, it is not very important.”

>Then there's Shaivism, whose main focus is the deity Shiva.

Shiva is a special case: he is in his own special class; greater than the living entities, but lesser than God or Vishnu-tattva.

>according to the Mahābhārata, Krishna is killed

Prabhupada explains that Krishna has no material body. His body is completely spiritual and free from the defects of birth, death, old age and disease. If he appears to leave a material body behind when his pastimes on Earth are completed, it is because he has already departed for the next planet to enact pastimes, and the body which is left behind is a decoy to bewilder those are not His devotees.

>Also, what I find interesting about the Hare Krishna movement is that many in it seem to place such strict sanctions on sex and sexuality, however, Krishna was a very erotic character according to the ancient texts.

Yes, but we must understand two things: (1) Krishna and the gopis have no material bodies. The sexual combination of two material bodies composed of blood, pus, stool and urine is considered abominable by the sages. But Krishna and the gopis have completely spiritual bodies. They cannot be contaminated by lust or other vices.

The other point (2) is that Krishna is God. He can do many things which we, living entities, cannot. He is supremely independent. If one is actually supreme, it means they are not bound by any rules or regulations. We are dependent. We must follow many rules and regulations, even in society.

This is all nice philsophy, but we cannot realize it unless we chant Hare Krishna, associate with devotees, and avoid sinful life. Then one can begin to taste the bliss of Krishna Consciousness. One cannot taste it by looking in from the outside.

Sincerely, Henrydoktorski (talk) 16:32, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

Hello Henry, and thanks for your explanation of Krishna Consciousness. I think you would be a good tour guide at the Palace of Gold. What always strikes me about religion in general is that it likes to give credit to a higher power for the origin and maintenance of everything in the physical universe, yet invariably tends to imply that God is above all physical laws and morality. "Of all that is material and all that is spiritual in this world, know for certain that I am both its origin and dissolution", from the Bhagavad Gita. According to this view, all things are from God, so all "good" and all "evil" then would be included, right? "Good" and "bad" are just opinions, because everything comes from God (including "good", "evil", and the notion of opinions.) That view can often give rise to certain types of antinomianism. Kirtanananda, in many ways, exemplifies antinomianism. The attitude of: "There's no law but God's law" (or what someone claims to be "God's law".) There used to be T-shirts which said, "Bhaktipada is King" at New Vrindaban. Gurus are seen as "representatives of God", Prabhupada stated this as well, in an interview I saw, after someone asked him about the nice things he was given and the Rolls Royce he would sometimes ride around in. Some religious philosophies (both Eastern and Western), such as the non-dualist views expressed in Taoism and by men like Jakob Böhme, and even Rudolf Steiner, try to rectify this "physical world / spiritual world" dilemma by basically saying that the physical world and the spiritual world both matter, though the concept of the spiritual world is still generally seen as being the "highest" aim and goal. Another thing which intrigues me about religion, is that much of it tends to insist that true "spirituality" (or "connection with God") cannot really be experienced through rational mental intellect. Rational thought and evidence-based reason are seen as inferior to spiritual notions that cannot be tested scientifically.

According to some religious views, eroticism displayed between deities is considered a cosmic spiritual event, but eroticism between humans is considered "disgusting" and "dirty". Nevertheless, other religious traditions view everything as coming from God, which would include sexual pleasure, and an omnivoric diet, among other things. That's why there are so many different religions, because there are so many different ways to interpret the unknown. To me, however, many of these are just nice and interesting mythological stories regarding metaphysics and religious philosophy (or theology). Also, I think that ethics and morality are discussions that can be had without necessarily applying religious doctrines. But, those are my views and I'm certainly not trying to argue with you or convert you. I'm not trying to sell any roses at airports or any books about Mass–energy equivalence, though that might be comically interesting to attempt. Anyhow, I very much enjoy reading your material, and think you seem to be an honest man. We can agree to disagree on certain matters and still be friendly, I hope. I've learned a lot from your material, and I think that your eventual book could be enlightening to both religious and secular society.

You said, "Shiva is a special case: he is in his own special class; greater than the living entities, but lesser than God or Vishnu-tattva."

Not to certain Shaivite followers, some of whom view Shiva as the ultimate form of reality.

There is something else that I want to discuss with you, regarding how other types of Hindus view the Hare Krishna movement. I bring this up because once I was speaking with a Hindu man whose family is from India, and I asked him about the Hare Krishnas and he said, "They are bogus! They aren't real Hindus. They follow a self-proclaimed guru, and are mostly white Westerners."

I've visited the Sri Venkateswara Temple here in Pittsburgh, and I must say that, on the day we visited, many of the people there were not the most welcoming to us (outsiders). This is in contrast to the Krishnas, who have been generally welcoming the times we've visited New Vrindaban. Some Hindu Indians seem to view whites suspiciously, or worse (even though traditionally, lighter skinned people were sometimes believed superior to darker skinned people in their old caste system.) Perhaps some of this is because many Hindus see Hinduism as a cultural-ethnic identity as well as a philosophical and/or metaphysical world-view. In that way, it's not too different than how some Jews view their Jewish heritage and traditions. I was speaking with a friend on this subject, and contrasting how the Krishnas at New Vrindaban treated us and how the Hindus at Sri Venkateswara Temple treated us, and she replied, "Well, that's probably because the Krishnas are more interested in converting people, whereas the Hindus at Sri Venkateswara are not." I would say that was an accurate observation. Hindus don't seem interested in converting people. This notion was later backed-up by Hindu Temple Society of North America President Dr. Uma Mysorekar when she appeared on Stephen Colbert's The Colbert Report TV show on June 18, 2008, and said, "Hindus don't believe in conversion. We never convert anyone to Hinduism."[1] She also said, "There is no sin, it is the mind which commits sin, not the soul, and therefore we are all divine."[2]

Geneisner (talk) 13:20, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Hello again, Geneisner!

Thank you for the very interesting discussion.

>you seem to be an honest man.

In order to be truly honest, one must be detached from the world. If one is attached to home, wife, employment, children, etc., one cannot be totally honest, because one runs the risk of losing their affections or support if one disagrees or criticizes. Therefore the great brahmans and sages were mendicants or self-employed teachers who depended on no one institution or patron for their livelihood. They could freely speak their mind without fear. I am not at that high level, but I try my best to be honest.

>I've visited the Sri Venkateswara Temple here in Pittsburgh, and I must say that . . . many of the people there were not the most welcoming to us (outsiders). This is in contrast to the Krishnas, who have been generally welcoming the times we've visited New Vrindaban.

I've seen many times at NV when devotees neglected visitors, ESPECIALLY Hindus! Articles in the community newspaper begged residents not to ignore the guests, especially Hindu pilgrims. Hindu guests were especially ignored by many residents. I think mostly because of inability to relate on a cultural level. Bhaktipada many times said how he disliked Indians. Around 1987 he publicly denigrated them and announced "I don't need Indian money to build my great temple!"

Regarding Hindu temples in America, I understand they function mainly as a social club for a foreign dark-skinned minority race in a largely white-skinned prejudiced nation, so it is understandable why the members tend to stick together and ignore outsiders. Similarly, one doesn't see many whites in black churches.

Sincerely, Henrydoktorski (talk) 15:19, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Hello again, Geneisner.

>other religious traditions view everything as coming from God, which would include sexual pleasure

I do not disagree here in principle, but I think two points should be clear:

1) One may say that everything comes from God, but does it really? Does darkness come from light? Does evil come from good? Certainly the self-realized soul who has transcendental realization sees everything as coming from God and is content in all circumstances;

"He who does not hate illumination, attachment and delusion when they are present, nor longs for them when they disappear; who is seated like one unconcerned, being situated beyond these material reactions of the modes of nature, who remains firm, knowing that the modes alone are active; who regards alike pleasure and pain, and looks on a clod, a stone and a piece of gold with an equal eye; who is wise and holds praise and blame to be the same; who is unchanged in honor and dishonor, who treats friend and foe alike, who has abandoned all fruitive undertakings--such a man is said to have transcended the modes of nature."

but the conditioned souls sees good and evil, pleasure and pain and thus experiences duality; suffering thoughout life.

2) Regarding sexual pleasure and the happiness it brings, we need look no farther than the lives of the greatest enjoyers of sex and see if it granted them happiness and contentment in life.

Elvis Presley comes first to my mind. One author explained: "The King of sex symbols in music, Elvis is still the most attractive man in pop years after his death. When the young Elvis brought rock'n'roll into the mainstream singing for RCA Records in the 1950s, his gyrating hips created hysteria in a whole generation of teenage girls. So frightened of his sexual power was conservative America, that TV companies were banned from filming him below the waist. Elvis had sold over 600 million records by the time he died, and probably seduced nearly as many women."

But was he happy? His addiction to prescription medications led to his premature death at age 42.

John Holmes was one of the most famous male adult film stars of all time, appearing in about 2,500 adult loops, stag films, and porno feature movies in the 1970s and 1980s. He boasted that he had sex with 20,000 women, but he became addicted to recreational drugs and died from AIDS-related complications at the age of forty three.

The beautiful Marilyn Monroe seemed to have everything going for her, except her death at age 36, which was classified as probable suicide. The list goes on and on.

Perhaps there may be exceptions to this rule; but even Hugh Heffner, who seems to me the most responsible of the great sex enjoyers, has had two failed marriages. I wonder what will happen to Heffner, now 82, if he should lose his wealth in his old age? What beautiful women will remain faithful to him?

Sometimes great sex enjoyers take to the religious life when they become aged, such as Franz Liszt. According to his Wikipedia article, Liszt concluded that "his sexual life had been the cause of his bad luck."

In conclusion, I have nothing against sex (it makes the world go 'round), but I don't think sexual pleasure is any reliable barometer of happiness. If anything, we can see that its pleasure is ephemeral. "Attraction and repulsion for sense objects are felt by embodied beings, but one should not fall under the control of senses and sense objects because they are stumbling blocks on the path of self-realization."

Henrydoktorski (talk) 22:58, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Hello Henry, you said, "In order to be truly honest, one must be detached from the world. If one is attached to home, wife, employment, children, etc., one cannot be totally honest, because one runs the risk of losing their affections or support if one disagrees or criticizes. Therefore the great brahmans and sages were mendicants or self-employed teachers who depended on no one institution or patron for their livelihood."

I think that it's impossible to be truly "detached" from the world, unless one is mentally insane, a crazy bum or fanatic, or an ascetic (which some people think might be a form of mental illness too.) Prabhupada, typical of many other religious leaders, often spoke about rejecting what is of this earth, but the religious movements are also of this earth. Managing a religion is of this earth. Managing a community is of this earth. The people of those communities are of this earth; the men, women, children are of this earth, etc. I understand that the goal of many religions is the "higher spiritual world", but one lives in the physical world, and all these religious communities are also in (and of) the physical world. Even the ascetic must eat to stay alive, and he too is of the physical world.

I think that in order to be truly honest, one must try and see things as they are based on observable evidence, and also have a willingness to discuss and communicate that information with others. It is on that criteria which I think you are an honest man, and I try to live as an honest man as best as I can too.

As for sex and pleasure, I think these things can be had in a balanced, reasonable way and still be enjoyed. As for your list of "greatest enjoyers of sex", well, I honestly think that list is quite erroneous. First of all, Elvis was definitely not one of the "greatest enjoyers of sex", actually he was somewhat prudish about sex and women, mostly because of the guilt he felt for it due to his ultra religious upbringing. Elvis's death was a result of his misuse of prescription drugs, not sex. Marilyn Monroe's death was listed as a "probable suicide" (though it could have been an accident or other), and was also due to prescription drugs (in her case, sleeping pills). John Holmes, well, where to begin with that guy. He was addicted to cocaine and that may have led to his involvement in the Wonderland murders. His drug addiction could also have been what led him to act in gay porno films, which involved unprotected sex with numerous men, and that may be how he contracted AIDS. Do you think John Holmes really enjoyed most of the sex he had? He was coked up a lot, plus his member was half-limp most of the time too (according to a quote by Annette Haven on Holmes's wikipedia page: "And it's true that his c--k was never hard. It [having onscreen sex] was like doing it with a big, soft kind of luffa." Plus, if one reads his Wikipedia page, they will see that he was beaten and abused as a child, and that may be what initially contributed to his problems which lead to him abusing substances and living to excess. Nevertheless, comparing the reasonable enjoyment of sex to sexual excess is not a fair comparison to make at all.

You said, "I have nothing against sex (it makes the world go 'round), but I don't think sexual pleasure is any reliable barometer of happiness." I would also like to add that I don't think sexual abstinence and/or ultra prudishness is a reliable barometer for happiness either. Look at the evidence! Look at the Catholic Church, or Bhaktipada, for example. Bhaktipada's book, Joy of No Sex is almost laughable considering his notorious legacy. And regarding what you said, most psychologists would say that reasonable enjoyment of sex (yes, sexual pleasure) IS a contributing factor to a person's happiness based on statistical analysis and evidence. If sex and sexual pleasure were not important to people, and yes, a contributing factor to the "pursuit of happiness", then nobody would want to have it. Nobody would get married, nobody would get pregnant, but that is not the case. As you said, "it makes the world go 'round". All I'm saying is that a more rational, reasonable and balanced approach to sex is healthier than the extremes one way or another.

Geneisner (talk) 13:38, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

Hi Geneisner,

I plead Nolo contendere!

Many thanks for your interesting discussion!

Sincerely,

Henrydoktorski (talk) 17:47, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

Yes Henry, I've very much enjoyed communicating with you too. I hope I am able to meet you in person at your future book signing here in Pittsburgh. I think the Hare Krishnas are mostly good people, so Hare Krishna, Hare Krishna! Krishna, Krishna! Hare, Hare! Hare Rama, Hare Rame! Rama, Rama! Hare, Hare!

Regarding New Vrindaban today, well, it's still existing. As for what you said regarding Bhaktipada's views on Indians, ironically, half the people at New Vrindaban these days seem to be from India (when I visited last summer.) White ladies who had been there during Bhaktipada's leadership were doing the tours of the Palace of Gold, they were very nice ladies who seemed to yearn for the heydays of old, and then we went to the Temple and half the people in there were Indian. I read something online about the community bringing more people in from overseas who are paid little, and this has caused some tension in the community with the folks who have been there longer. The newer Indian crowd seems more in line with modern "mainstream" Hinduism and perhaps Vedanta or Advaita Vedanta rather as much of a primary focus on Krishna (though I could be incorrect on this matter, but I did notice that many of the Indians did not dress in the Hare Krishna styled saffron dhotis as much and seemed to dress in other forms of traditional Hindu style, and there also seemed to be more of a focus on other deities besides just Krishna. Jagannath, in particular was getting a lot of attention on the day we were there, but then again, he is considered amongst Vaishnavas to be a very merciful form of Krishna. So, I guess they are seen as being one and the same anyhow. Also, I did buy a nice statue of Shiva in the gift shop, as well as a refrigerator magnet depicting the Palace of Gold.)

I've enjoyed visiting the Palace of Gold and New Vrindaban, Henry, and I've enjoyed your information and pictures which have helped me better understand the story surrounding it. Hopefully the Palace of Gold will someday be able to get some funding for being a National Historic Landmark, which would surely help with its upkeep. According to one of the ladies there, they need help with the Palace upkeep. Hopefully they will get the help they need and be able to maintain this interesting monument. Thanks again, and Hare Krishna!

Geneisner (talk) 00:27, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

Dear Geneisner,

I'm sure we will meet in the future!

Best wishes,

Henrydoktorski (talk) 15:40, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

Hello Henry, I certainly hope so. I have so many things I'd like to ask you. I can send you an e-mail so that you can contact me when your book is done (or you can always contact me on my Wiki talk page), and then I can try and go to the book signing. Do you have any CDs of the music you made with the New Vrindaban Orchestra? I'd like to hear some of that too. Can some of this music be heard in the Holy Cow Swami documentary? There's one part in that movie where Handel's "Hallelujah" chorus can be heard but with "Hare Krishna" being sung rather than just "Hallelujah, Hallelujah!" Is that a recording of the New Vrindaban Orchestra?

I also was wondering, what's under the Palace of Gold? There has to be lots of room under there, since the main portion is raised on top of another portion. I know they still have a gift shop in one section under there, and they also used to have a restaurant under there too (if I remember correctly.) The last time I was there and went into that gift shop, I noticed there was a wall divider in the back, and I could see through it and there is definitely more room back there. I remember one guy, years ago, half-seriously saying, "That's probably where they store their guns." I don't know if that's true or not, but I figure there's some room under the Palace of Gold and was wondering what, if anything, it was (and/or is) used for? Also, are there any detailed blueprints of the Palace of Gold? If so, I hope you are able to include those in your book as well.

I remember that before I first went to the Palace of Gold, I heard a rumor that George Harrison had either donated some money to its construction, or that he had donated a chandelier or something like that. Was there any truth to such rumors? When I asked one of the tour guides about this the first time I visited the Palace back in 1996, I was told that this was not the case. Is this accurate or not? I was wondering if you know whether or not George Harrison donated anything to either New Vrindaban or the Palace of Gold? I know that George Harrison was friendly with Prabhupada[3][4][5], I've seen the picture of them together, and I know that George admired and was dedicated to Krishna from his song My Sweet Lord, and the Radha Krsna Temple album he produced, as well as from statements made by Ravi Shankar on the Concert for George DVD. I'm sure that George probably donated some money to the Hare Krishna movement in his lifetime (according to this video[6], George bought and donated an estate for the Hare Krishnas in England), but I was wondering whether or not he ever donated anything to either New Vrindaban or the Palace of Gold?

I was also thinking about Hare Krishna references in popular culture. I was wondering if you've ever seen the John Waters movie entitled Female Trouble (1974)? It's a ridiculously silly movie, but one of the parts I like best is when the daughter (Mink Stole) announces that she's going to join the "Hare Krishna people." Also, in the Cheech & Chong movie Up in Smoke (1978), two cops dress up as Hare Krishna devotees banging drums on the streets. One of the earlier references that I can think of can be found in the Tom Paxton song from 1968 entitled "Talking Vietnam Potluck Blues"[7]. I figure that if some of these things aren't included already, then they could be added to the Wikipedia article entitled Hare Krishna in popular culture. Geneisner (talk) 12:41, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

Hello Geneisner,

I wonder if we should continue further discussion on the New Vrindaban talk page?

>Do you have any CDs of the music you made with the New Vrindaban Orchestra?

See: http://cgi.ebay.com/Krishna-Chorale-Orchestra-Vrindabans-Woods-Groves_W0QQitemZ110184183385QQihZ001QQcategoryZ307QQcmdZViewItem

See: http://cgi.ebay.com/The-Krishna-Chorale-Jagad-Guru-New-Vrindaban-Choir_W0QQitemZ110184185655QQihZ001QQcategoryZ307QQcmdZViewItem

See: http://cgi.ebay.com/The-Krishna-Chorale-Blessed-Assurance-NV-Choir_W0QQitemZ110184186126QQihZ001QQcategoryZ307QQcmdZViewItem

See: http://cgi.ebay.com/New-Vrindaban-Krsna-Hymnal-Morning-Noon-Service-Music_W0QQitemZ110078794385QQihZ001QQcategoryZ113500QQcmdZViewItem

The "Hare Krishna Chorus" from Handel's Krishna-ized Messiah appears in "Jagad Guru."

>I also was wondering, what's under the Palace of Gold?

Dirt. Rocks. Maybe some rubble. There is no basement. The gift store & former restaurant are BEHIND the Palace, not under it.

George Harrison DID NOT donate anything to New Vrindaban, although he funded the printing of Prabhupada's Krishna Book and donated his mansion & estate in England to ISKCON. In the early 1980s I also heard talk about getting Harrison to endorse the NV Krishnaland Theme Park, but nothing ever happened.

>I was also thinking about Hare Krishna references in popular culture.

I am ignorant in this field, although my wife knows some of the Hollywood actors, musicians, & celebrities due to her work flying for the airlines from Los Angeles.

I think you are actually a devotee without realizing it! ;-)

Henrydoktorski (talk) 20:19, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

Hello Henry, and thanks a lot for your responses. From now on, I will try not to bother you on your talk page about these types of matters, because I think you've covered everything I could think to ask. I very much appreciate it, and am looking forward to the release of your book about the history of New Vrindaban and the Palace of Gold. I checked out the items you have on your ebay page[8], and was glad to see that there was a floor plan of the Palace of Gold pictured in the item called "Hare Krishna Prabhupada Palace of Gold Souvenir Book"[9]. I was also surprised to see that you are selling three books by Tirtha das, the imprisoned murderer of New Vrindaban, as well as the latest book by the notorious Kirtanananda Swami entitled Humbler than a Blade of Grass. There are many adjectives that could be used to describe Kirtanananda Swami, but I wouldn't say that "humble" would be one of them. The picture of him dressed up like a Liberace-styled king on the cover of the Jagad Guru CD[10] seems to paint a different picture. Anyhow, these items are still quite interesting, because they also help tell the story of New Vrindaban. You are helping tell the story with your writing, Henry, and you are helping get it out there for the general public to see. I'm looking forward to the release of your book, I hope to attend the book signing here in the Pittsburgh area, and I hope that you bring along some CDs of your music with the New Vrindaban Orchestra to the book signing too. You could sell those alongside your book, or, even better, you could put together a "greatest hits" CD containing highlights from the New Vrindaban Orchestra CDs that could be sold with the book itself (so that people reading the book can have a disc of music to go along with it, which could help them better understand the music references in the book.) I've seen books that contain musical CDs inside of them before, usually included in a plastic sleeve in the back. You could also sell other items at you book signings too. I don't know, but those are just some ideas I have. I want the book to be a good one, because I definitely would like a good reference on the Palace of Gold and New Vrindaban, and hopefully they can get you an interview in the Pittsburgh CP right before it's released to help generate some local interest, and maybe you could do some book signings at some of the local Borders book stores (and/or other book stores) in this area too. I'll try and send you an e-mail so that you can contact me when your book is done (or you can always contact me on my Wiki talk page). Thanks again, Henry, for all your helpful information. Good luck on the book, take care, and peace (oh, and Hare Krishna!)

Geneisner (talk) 22:35, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

Speedy deletion of Hayagriva Swami

A tag has been placed on Hayagriva Swami, requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section G11 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because the article seems to be blatant advertising which only promotes a company, product, group, service or person and would need to be fundamentally rewritten in order to become an encyclopedia article. Please read the guidelines on spam as well as the Wikipedia:Business' FAQ for more information.

If you think that this notice was placed here in error, you may contest the deletion by adding {{hangon}} to the top of the page that has been nominated for deletion (just below the existing speedy deletion or "db" tag), coupled with adding a note on the talk page explaining your position, but be aware that once tagged for speedy deletion, if the article meets the criterion it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag yourself, but don't hesitate to add information to the article that would would render it more in conformance with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. Lastly, please note that if the article does get deleted, you can contact one of these admins to request that a copy be emailed to you. Ravichandar_{My coffee shop} 14:01, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Vedavyasapriya Swami

• Hello Henrydoktorski. As you have a lot of knowledge on the history of New Vrindavan, do you know of any information on Vedavyasapriya Swami's relation to this temple. I found an article that says he installed the Shrinathji diety there. Do you know of any other information about him? Any toughts, suggestions or edits would be appreciated. Thanks. Ism schism (talk) 15:55, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

---

Dear Ism schism, Thank you for your inquiry. Vedavyasa-priya Swami served as New Vrindaban’s director of Life Membership from 1985 to 1988. He was initiated into the sannyas order by Kirtanananda Swami Bhaktipada in 1986.

I believe the article "Sri Nathji: The Transcendental Cowherd Boy Goes West" by Madhava Smullen on 26 Jul 2008 published at ISKCON News Weekly, is accurate except for one point: "The devotees drink in the beauty of Sri Nathji as they celebrate the festival joyously. Among them is Vedavyasa-priya Swami, Nathji’s priest, who brought the deity here and installed him back on July 4th, 1983 with the help of Atmarama Dasa and his wife Revati Dasi."

Vedavyasa-priya Swami did not install the Sri Nathji deity at NV. The deity was installed by Kirtanananda Swami Bhaktipada. The Brijabasi Spirit [Gargarishi Das, “Radha-Vrindaban Chandra Festival,” Brijabasi Spirit, vol. X, no. IV (c. August 1983), 17.] reported:

Radha-Vrindaban Chandra, Gaura-Nitai, and Gopala Nathji were placed on Their altars, which had been drilled with nine small holes. In the holes were placed nine precious jewels of the nine major planets. They were then filled with turmeric. A yantra—a small piece of gold plated copper, inscribed with a six-pointed star, an eight-pointed lotus flower, and the mula and gayatri mantras of each Deity, was placed under the Deities. . .

Shyamasundar, one of the priests, had calculated that . . . the most auspicious time would be at 11:32 p.m., Saturday night. . . . Everyone was in a flurry of activity to meet the deadline. . . . Gaura-Nitai and Gopal Nathji were the new Deities to be installed, so Their eyes were covered with beeswax. After installation, the beeswax would be removed, and the Deities would see an offering of auspicious items.

Then came one of the most meaningful events of the festival. It was time for the spiritual master to invoke the presence of the Deities. . . . The curtains were closed, but a few of us were able to watch Shrila Bhaktipada place his hands over the hearts of Gaura Nitai and Gopal Nathji and ask Them to enter the forms, thus making Them worshipable.

It was Bhaktipada who installed the deities, including Sri Nathji. There is a photography of Bhaktipada reaching out and touching the chest of Sri Nathji on page 18. Sri Nathji's eyes are covered with beeswax. Nowhere in the 7 page article is Vedavyasa-priya Swami mentioned.

I helped carry the Sri Nathji deity from a vehicle to the temple, along with about five other men, the deity was incredibly heavy; solid stone, marble I think. I believe the vehicle was Atmarama's van. Yes, he and his wife made arrangements for everything, in close cooperation with Vedavyasa-priya dasa, who was not yet a sannyasi. This is explained in detail by Revati Devi Dasi, "How Sri Nathji Came to New Vrindaban: A Recollection on the Travels of the Lord," Brijabasi Spirit, (c. Autumn 1984), pp.34-35, 40.

I hope this helps you. I'm also putting this exchange at the Vedavyasa-priya Swami Talk Page.

Sincerely, Henrydoktorski (talk) 17:22, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

• Thank you Henrydoktorski for helping to provide more information on this subject. Do you know of any sources for the statement, "Vedavyasa-priya Swami served as New Vrindaban’s director of Life Membership from 1985 to 1988. He was initiated into the sannyas order by Kirtanananda Swami Bhaktipada in 1986."? Thanks again for providing so much information. Ism schism (talk) 17:42, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

---

The source for the above statements are from my forthcoming book "Gold, Guns & God: The Hare Krishnas in West Virginia." The date of sannyasa initiation is also listed at Kirtanananda Swami. Henrydoktorski (talk) 17:58, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

P.S. You will be able to know when I post this? Do I have to put it also on your talk page? How is this done?

Thanks again for the info. Also, I am not clear on your PS question above. Are you talking about posting a reference for this information? Thanks again. Ism schism (talk) 18:11, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

Ism, I guess you must have some way of knowing when I post a reply to you on this page? Henrydoktorski (talk) 19:33, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

Accordion page

Hi, I see that there are some citations now, but I haven't ever worked on that page, so I don't know my way around it very well. Badagnani (talk) 18:10, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

Grove quotation

It's actually from the entry under "Mouth organ" (the entry under "Accordion" is only slightly less hostile, as it only describes a diatonic one-row, which it terms "little more than a toy"). I don't know if it featured in later editions. Brunton (talk) 16:20, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

Using your own works as a reference

Make sure you check out WP:OR and WP:COI for guidelines and limitations on citing your own work. I'm assuming by your username and edits that you are the author you cited in your edits to Reed (instrument). - Special-T (talk) 04:52, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

I think that the edits to Reed (instrument) fall within the guidelines, but it's generally something you'd want to avoid doing. Happy editing! - Special-T (talk) 12:48, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

Removed

I have removed possible vandalism from your user page, of "I have a weird name". If this was your doing, please undo my edit. A Cool Editor (talk) 15:30, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

The accordion photo

Hey there! I've made the requested changes to the image (looks like Wikimedia Commons can't rename files, had to reupload) and updated the accordion article. Glad you like it =) Necz0r (talk) 07:32, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

The Stradella chart

Thanks for your commentary on improvements for the chart, they're very important as this user has only been dealing with music/the accordion for one year! Which notes go where was referred from this PDF, which is linked as a footnote in the article. I've found another reference that has the changes you mentioned (just had to be sure the implied change didn't alter the entire sequence of notes, as I'd be clueless then!

Perhaps we could call them "Bass-note button" and "Bass-chord button" respectively? I've made some changes in this regard and updated the file. Let me know if the descriptions should be changed or could be improved. Thanks! 85.81.23.225 (talk) 01:55, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

Firstly, about the unreadability of the Stradella chart, I've uploaded a new raster-graphics version that is definitely much easier to read (zoomed in) than the other. The SVG file there is fully scalable without losing detail, so it was made like that at first for those interested in printing it. However, it doesn't seem to look very good in this small size. So I've replaced it.

Secondly, please have a look at http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/67/120-button_Stradella_bass_system_chart.png and tell me which ones are off. I don't have the required expertise or reference to do this on my own I'm afraid. Point them out by numbering each row that should be changed, from the right and then just mentioning if it's the root, minor, major, whichever. Since the chart is licensed so that it's free for everyone to use, people could use it beyond the scope of Wikipedia for reference without having to worry about copyright. Thanks!

Finally, I don't think the chart shouldn't display the concave buttons. If it is more suitable, I can make them less "in your face" as they are quite highlighted currently. But omitting them would be a shame for newcomers when there's no perceivable reason they can't be subtly included in the chart. I've never seen a Stradella layout chart that didn't display these. Necz0r (talk) 08:57, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

Update: Whew, what a haul! Thanks for all the information. Here is the resulting updated chart (with more subtle concave buttons). http://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Image:120-button_Stradella_bass_system_chart.png —Preceding unsigned comment added by Necz0r (talk • contribs) 15:45, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

Eagle Scout

Your article says you made Eagle Scout in 1971, but your CV says 1973. Your official date is your Eagle BOR date. Which date is correct? — Rlevse • Talk • 02:08, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

I'd just update that page or put your Eagle info elsewhere on the web as that is the only WP:RS for your Eagle info I could find. If you change the location of Eagle info, your article needs updated. As a friendly suggestion, your refs need proper formatting. Interesting article though. All those GFDL images can be moved to commons too. Do you need help with that? I'm an admin here and on commons. You should unify your accounts under SUL too, but before you do that consider if you want to change your user name to Henry Doktorski, since I a bureaucrat here on en wiki, I see lots of requests for people who want to change there name from the Joesmith to Joe Smith format. If you do that and also want to unify your accounts under SUL, you'll have to change your other two accounts (commons and source) too, but I can tell you how to do that. PS, respond here, I put a watch on your page. — Rlevse • Talk • 10:05, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for your suggests, Rlevse. I did correct the date on my vitae page. My refs need formatting? What is this? Is it easy to do? Can you do it?

What's a GFDL image? Please feel free to move them.

Unify accounts under SUL? I'm afraid I am ignorant of these things. If you think I should, we can change to Henry_Doktorski. Will my edit history remain? Whatever you think is best is okay with me. Henrydoktorski (talk) 14:26, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

1) SUL lets you log into other wikis automatically if you use the same name and gives you rights to your name across all wikis (if you are the main owner of the name). But first decide if you want to be Henrydoktorski or Henry Doktorski or something else. Once your name is what you want it to be click on your "My Preferences" tab and then "Manage your global account" button. Follow the directions. 2) See my last edit to your article for a sample of proper ref formatting. You can look up more at the template pages. If you have trouble, let me know. 3) GFDL (aka GNU) is one of the free licenses. All free (not copyrighted) images can go on Commons so all projects can use them. I'll move them for you this weekend. They will "show through" to any wiki that uses them as long as the link has the correct file name. 4) Post here if you want your name to change to "Henry Doktorski" if that's what you want. Don't unify your account til this is done, if that is what you want. Then I'll help you change it on the other wikis. This will take some steps, but it's not hard. Consider some users don't like using their real name for privacy reasons, some don't care, it's up to you. Click here, it's how I know you have accounts on 3 wikis. I have accounts on over 70 wikis just so people can't use my user name. When I change your name, if you want to do that, you will know it's been done when you can't log in under your old name. Password and edit history will move to the new name. — Rlevse • Talk • 02:56, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

I've made a category on commons, [11], of your images. The accordions you uploaded are in it now. This is where you can easily find your portraits when I move them. — Rlevse • Talk • 10:09, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Thank you, Rlevse. I can't get to all of this until later next week, but in the meantime you can change my username to Henry_Doktorski. Thanks! Henrydoktorski (talk) 13:50, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Name change

Your name change is done. To finish unifying your account:

• Post on commons:User talk:Lar that you want to change from Henrydoktorski to Henry Doktorski.
• Post on s:User_talk:BirgitteSB that you want to change from Henrydoktorski to Henry Doktorski
• then here on the English wiki, click on "My preferences" and then select "Manage your global account".

— Rlevse • Talk • 14:27, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

See Lar and BirgitteSB's pages. Hers you need to log in as Henrydoktorski so they know it's you. On Lars' you need to log in as Henrydoktorski too and also post to COM:CHU, which I didn't know commons had. — Rlevse • Talk • 02:15, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

Rlevse, When I try to log in as Henrydoktorski I get the message: "Login error:There is no user by the name "Henrydoktorski". User names are case sensitive. Please check your spelling, or use the link below to create a new user account." Henry Doktorski (talk) 02:46, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

You need to log in to commons and enwikisource as Henrydoktorski. Only here on en.wiki are you Henry Doktorski right now. — Rlevse • Talk • 02:52, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

Rlevse, I believe everything is done as you stated. Many thanks! Henry Doktorski (talk) 20:02, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

Sort of, see this and this. Your enwikisource account needs attached, do that under your my prefs and manage global account (if you just did this it may not have worked through the system yet). You created a new commons account rather than renaming your old one but there are only a few edits so it maybe is not a big deal. Let me know if you have more questions. Hope you like how I set up your pics on commons. — Rlevse • Talk • 21:32, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

Hello again, Rlevse. Is everything okay now? And thank you for the images page. In future, if I upload images will they automatically appear there? Henry Doktorski (talk) 02:17, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

If you want images on Commons, and in your category, do this:

1. Go to the Commonus upload link and upload it
2. During or after upload add it to your category by putting in [[Category:Henry Doktorski]]
3. Go to your commons page and add it to the appropriate section, or a new section, change the page layout as you like

NOTE:you can only put free images on Commons (GFDL, most CC, and Public Domain licenses). I am an admin on commons too so I help there some too. I am not a crat or checkuser on commons; but I'm all three here on en wiki.

NOTE 2:your SUL looks fine now and I see you made an account on RU wiki.

— Rlevse • Talk • 02:33, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Many thanks, I'll keep this in mind next time I upload images. Henry Doktorski (talk) 02:37, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Image:Newvrindabanaccordions.jpg

Hi Henrydoktorsk, I've listed this image at possibly unfree images as I have concerns about its copyright tag. You're welcome to comment there. Let me know if you have questions. Regards, Эlcobbola _talk 01:35, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Image:Conductorchanter.jpg probably has the same problem. — Rlevse • Talk • 22:32, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Apologies for answering your question with more questions, but I need a bit more information. Firstly, was the photograph taken by a Wheeling News-Register staff photographer? Secondly, do the New Vrindaban Archives hold both physical and intellectual property rights to the Wheeling News-Register? The distinction is analogous to, say, how you or I may own a DVD (physical object), but not the film itself (an intellectual property - i.e. the copyright). If the Archives do indeed hold the copyright, you, as the owner, could license the image as you see fit, in which case the GFDL tag would be fine. Эlcobbola _talk 14:54, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Hello again, Thanks for all your help. I changed the link from the accordion ensemble to a new image, which I hope fulfills the copyright requirements. Regarding conductorchanter.jpg, the publication Brijabasi Spirit has not been in existence for over a dozen years. However there is a new online publication using the name Brijabasi Spirit. I can get the new publisher to grant permission to use the 1982 image, if you think I should. Henry Doktorski (talk) 15:12, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Reed ranks & switches

Hey, thanks for posting some sources on what ranks and switches are to be used! Awesome! Since you've pointed out that the reed rank nicknames are not accurate and should be specified differently, my first thought was to also ask if there are any sources for the nicknames of the switches? Are these accurate and called so as a general convention? Secondly, how do we best convey what is meant by "in the chamber" and "casotto"/ "out of the chamber"? As someone inexperienced with the internals of an accordion, I can honestly say I'm not quite sure how to visualize it. I'll be happy to redo the tables and remake/rename icons as needed with this information.

Also, as posted on the Talk:Accordion page, the Accordion reed ranks & switches article is now the main article for this information. I'm hoping I can make a restructure of the main article tomorrow to properly refer to the various articles, as I've updated the Stradella bass system, Accordion reed ranks & switches, Free-bass system, Chromatic button accordion, Diatonic button accordion and Piano accordion articles a little for this purpose. Necz0r (talk) 23:20, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Vanashrama Manifesto

Gaura. I've heard various things about Devamrita Swami's involvement in this book, one being that he only did the editing. Do you have a copy of the book? Thanks Chopper Dave (talk) 00:46, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Chopper Dave, According to Ekkehard Lorenz in The Hare Krishna Movement: The Postcharismatic Fate of a Religious Transplant, edited by Edwin F. Bryant and Maria L. Ekstrand (Columbia University Press: 2004), Harikesh & Devamrita Swamis were co-authors. Sincerely, Henry Doktorski (talk) 01:05, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Unrelated question

I was just wondering from editing around in the piano accordion and chromatic button accordion articles, since I'm a beginner accordionist myself, what your thoughts are on those two layouts. You play a piano accordion. Any reason why? Has it ever been impractical? Any experiences with the a chromatic button layout? This is totally unrelated, but as someone who'll have to go get myself a free-bass accordion at some point, I like gathering opinions. Ignore this if it's inconvenient. Necz0r (talk) 01:02, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Greetings, Necz0r. Good to hear from you. I play piano-accordion because that is the instrument I was taught beginning at age 7 some 45 years ago. It has served me well. However, if I was REALLY into playing the Russian & European classical repertoire, I would get a bayan. So much more you can do. Some of the music written for the chromatic button accordion is unplayable on a piano accordion, due to limited range and insufficient hand range. If you were REALLY serious about playing the greatest music ever written for accordion, you would buy a bayan or chromatic button accordion with 5-row right hand manual, and convertor/free-bass left-hand manual. Free-bass would be chromatic free-bass, not quint system as is popular in U.S. However piano accordion is just as good for most other repertoire. There are some great classical piano-accordionists: Italy's Salavatore di Gesualdo, Canada's Joseph Macerollo, England's Owen Murray (I think he plays a piano-accordion.) But most of the world's greatest players play the chromatic button accordion. Henry Doktorski (talk) 02:15, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for your input. Much appreciated! I assume the piano layout mostly falls short in contemporary compositions? Well, considering my goal of being able to play Semionov and JS Bach one day, and the less-than-large size of my hands it might be wise to switch early in the process. I've only been playing a year, without tuition no less. Necz0r (talk) 14:28, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

"I assume the piano layout mostly falls short in contemporary compositions?"

I would say that the European & Russian composers simply write for a different instrument which has greater range. I compare the bayan to a guitar and the piano-accordion to a ukulele. Both are certainly legitimate instruments and have their own unique repertoire, although somethings can be played by both instruments. Henry Doktorski (talk) 14:39, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Ah, I see what you mean! Necz0r (talk) 15:19, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Mika Vayrynen

I don't know this person except from photos here and there. Technically the list of accordionists should be restricted to those with articles, but if there's enough information it would be appropriate to establish a small article on him for the sake, just enough to avoid deletion. I see that the Finnish Wikipedia has a small article on him, almost only using this page as a source (their only other source is a book reference to verify his birthdate). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Necz0r (talk • contribs) 10:00, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

Hare Krishnas at airports

Hello Henry, I thought I'd write to you and ask for your input on a discussion about Hare Krishnas at airports. Someone asked a question on that discussion page, and I answered them as best as I could on the subject. I figured I could ask you to elaborate on the subject too, because you probably know more about the topic than I do. Perhaps you can explain on that talk page how the practice of Hare Krishna devotees going to airports to perform sankirtan and proselytize got started. Also, if you have any information suggesting that this practice was emphasized or directly promoted in the movement specifically, that may also be good information to include too. Thanks again for all of your information. Geneisner (talk) 01:08, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Good to hear from you, Geneisner. Hope all is well! I put in my two cents at Hare Krishnas at airports. Henry Doktorski (talk) 14:30, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Sheng (instrument)

Hello Henry. I was wondering about Revision 241026837 you made on Sheng (instrument). I noticed you added circumflexes on all the e's in sheng, that is, you used the Wade-Giles romanisation. Wikipedia:Manual of Style (Use of Chinese Language)#Romanization and tones states that we usually use hanyu pinyin instead. Is there any reason to prefer Wade-Giles here? —Goh wz 16:27, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

Hi Goh wz, I just thought it was more accurate, but if you think better without, by all means change them. I am not expert in Chinese. Sincerely, Henry Doktorski (talk) 19:21, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

I see. Thanks. —Goh wz 12:58, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

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