User talk:Esowteric/Archives/2020/October

Thanks for noticing!

Hey, thanks for noticing what I said on AngusMEOW's talk page (he changed his name from Angus1986). Thanks for helping out with that mess, too. Sometimes, when dealing with these things, it feels like one is talking to a brick wall. (And I can't shake the odd feeling that there is some more skulduggery going on somewhere in there—something just doesn't feel right. I really hope I'm wrong about that, though...) Cheers! — UncleBubba ^{( T @ C )} 20:50, 12 September 2020 (UTC)

Well, I've been there, too, and at times I still have to question my sanity. Esowteric+Talk 20:51, 12 September 2020 (UTC)

This discussion just caught my attention. Well, now I can see why you are so interested in improving the article that I nominated for deletion and so much interested in the SPI I opened against the sock puppets of Az.jooma. UncleBubba had been following me for 2 weeks and was very rude to me(advised me to rest for 1 week) which I didn't follow, explained how he is an admin in real life, and how admins on Wikipedia don't appreciate new editors making mistakes. Admins are really nice and polite over here and help if you make mistakes, UncleBubba's approach was very rough & very very condescending, and he called me a fraud(by referring to skulduggery) is again rude. Strange on your edit history you weren't active like an hour before replying to UncleBubba's comment on your talk page, the reply was in less than 2 mins. AngusMEOW (chatter • paw trail) 14:53, 14 September 2020 (UTC)

Remember your quote on two prisoners looking out? (which you typed on the Afd page). Well, what if there is a third prisoner influencing one of the two prisoners to look at the place which is his area of interest. AngusMEOW (chatter • paw trail) 15:01, 14 September 2020 (UTC)

"I was once like you are now, and I know that it's not easy / To be calm when you've found something going on / But take your time, think a lot / Why, think of everything you've got / For you will still be here tomorrow, but your dreams may not." ~ Cat Stevens, "Father and Son". Esowteric+Talk 14:58, 14 September 2020 (UTC)

@AngusMEOW: Please stop demeaning other editors. If you are unwilling (or incapable) of accurately relating facts, then say nothing. I never advised you to "rest for 1 week". You have misrepresented this before, as I told you, and are now misrepresenting what I said to you about "admins".

Since you brought it up, here is the entry from your Talk page history (from 2020-09-08):

There is a low-impact mode of behavior that you really need to learn: Go someplace new. Sit down. Watch carefully what's going on for a good while (much longer than a week). Don't try to effect massive changes; rather, start slowly. I do large-scale system administration for a living, and I'll tell you that most admins don't take very kindly to inexperienced folks jumping in without first becoming familiar with how things work (and how things are done). As I've told you on another occasion, I recommend you slow down. If you don't, you're gonna get yourself into some hot water. Of course, that's just free advice; the choice is entirely yours.

If you don't like me, fine. I don't care. But you must not engage in personal attacks against me (or any other Wikipedia editor), especially if they are demonstrably untrue. — UncleBubba ^{( T @ C )} 21:06, 15 September 2020 (UTC)

Sorry about that, UncleBubba. As you can no doubt see, things are getting pretty hot around here. Esowteric+Talk 21:20, 15 September 2020 (UTC)

No problem! I'm sorry this poop got dropped on your doorstep. — UncleBubba ^{( T @ C )} 22:42, 15 September 2020 (UTC)

UncleBubba There is something really wrong with your language, please try to be polite. This is done and over with. I don't have time to deal with you, and I already got it sorted with Esowteric, I have no problem with him and his language. Your language is rude, foul and dirty. Just try to use nice language. AngusMEOW (chatter • paw trail) 07:50, 16 September 2020 (UTC)

My language is English, and I'm nearly always polite (and when I'm not, I'm mature enough to apologize); I think you're just mad because I told you some things you didn't want to hear (and commented on your request for PCR). I have no idea why you continue to negatively talk about me to others (and can't—or won't—accurately quote what I said), but you seem more intent on attacking me than in improving your performance. Of late, it looks like you may be "biting" some newcomers during your recent-changes patrolling (see WP:BITE), so instead of trying to convince others how horrible I am, perhaps your time would be better spent improving your work. And please remember, just like on the Internet, writ large, what you say here tends to stay around for a long time, even if you delete it. — UncleBubba ^{( T @ C )} 12:56, 16 September 2020 (UTC)

Rude English, referring me or my actions to "poop" isn't polite, yeah whatever you say, I have all the record of it, what you say here tends to stay around for a long time, even if you delete it. I don't have time to deal with you. Sorry! AngusMEOW (chatter • paw trail) 13:05, 16 September 2020 (UTC)

I think I, too, am now in the "hot water" that you warned about, UncleBubba (see below). Esowteric+Talk 08:15, 17 September 2020 (UTC)

And now I think we're up to, what, four names in three months? ;-) — UncleBubba ^{( T @ C )} 13:39, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

Two sayings spring to mind: Anthony J. D'Angelo's "Wherever you go, no matter what the weather, always bring your own sunshine.", and "Wherever you go, your Shadow goes with you." Let's hope it's the former. Esowteric + Talk + Breadcrumbs 13:49, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

An excellent thought, sir, and I absolutely agree! (Nice choice of quotes, too.) — UncleBubba ^{( T @ C )} 16:16, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

AfD Nominator's COI editing at Aliza Ayaz

I was going to make a complaint against AngusMEOW (talk · contribs) – (originally Angus1986, then AngusMEOW, QuantumUniverse, and now QuantumRealm) – at the Aliza Ayaz AfD, but I see that they have thankfully mended their ways:

"Nominator's COI editing: With respect, the deletion of reliable sourced references by the nominator of this current AfD is unhelpful. For example, in one edit s/he deleted two references and only re-inserted one of them, deciding to discard the other, and thereby undermining claims to the article subject's notability. Above all, this raises ethical questions about a conflict of interest and of propriety." Esowteric+Talk 08:36, 16 September 2020 (UTC)

The removal of reference was by mistake I clearly mentioned that I didn't edit war with you, it was just one edit and the other edit I just removed the text without touching the refs, I have no COI I just feel the edits made by Aj.zooma clearly indicate promotion for sure, which raised notability concerns about the subject, and when I went deep I realized a lot of references are just bogus or just misleading which are removed now, the subject fails notability. Yeah, after the advice of my NPP instructor who stated not to touch the article, I refrained to do so, and I am sure this article will be drafted. :) AngusMEOW (chatter • paw trail) 08:41, 16 September 2020 (UTC)

The reference you have issues with is reliable (U.N. sourced) and it provides proof of the subject's claim to be a youth activist and to have been involved with UN-led events. Esowteric+Talk 09:00, 16 September 2020 (UTC)

WP:GNG: "If a topic has received significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject, it is presumed to be suitable for a stand-alone article or list." Esowteric+Talk 09:17, 16 September 2020 (UTC)

"Significant" is the keyword, "Independent of the subject" excludes works produced by the article's subject or someone affiliated with it - so all the blogs from UCL, Cambridge which refers to the UN isn't a reliable source. Non of the independent reliable source cite that she works or spoke for the UN, only one source just mentions Model United Nations(not United Nations), and non of the independent reliable source cite she spoke for UK parliament. All your references are UCL blogs that are not considered independent. If you need more help contact an experienced NPP to clarify your doubt. I really understand your enthusiasm to have this article in the main space, but it clearly lacks notability. :) AngusMEOW (chatter • paw trail) 09:38, 16 September 2020 (UTC)

But your approach to me has been very polite, kind and formal. Compared to the few editors over here who use strong language, and rude. I really appreciate you for that. And you are really an exceptional editor and I look up for you. Just in this article, I disagree with you. It doesn't mean I disagree with you in all the things. Love and peace! <3 ^_^ AngusMEOW (chatter • paw trail) 09:42, 16 September 2020 (UTC)

Primary sources do not add to a subject's notability, but they may often be used to support uncontroversial facts, and they do not detract from a subject's notability. For example, in the case of an award from UCL, there is nothing wrong with linking to a page at UCL containing details of that award.

She has had sufficient, significant coverage in reliable, secondary sources to pass WP:GNG. Just because the sources are largely unknown to you, does not make them unreliable. For example, you would accept The Guardian (a mainstream Western source) but seem to pooh-pooh sources you have no knowledge of, like ARY News, The News International, Dawn, and Geo TV. Esowteric+Talk 10:28, 16 September 2020 (UTC)

Ok, Dawn didn't specifically write about her. The same editor wrote on GeoTV and The News International about the subject(which raises some doubts). AryTV had an article on "8th Grader from Pakistan got selected for NASA Internship"(which makes one question their reliability). The majority of the sources on the article page is from UCL which backs UN connection with CAS, and UK Parliamentary connection. If the subject is notable then why did experienced editors comment Draftify on AfD instead of Keep? No one commented Keep, because the subject is clearly non-notable and not ready for the mainspace yet. :) AngusMEOW (chatter • paw trail) 10:48, 16 September 2020 (UTC)

Compare and contrast

Here's one to get your teeth into: climate activist Alexandria Villaseñor (compare and contrast). Esowteric+Talk 10:54, 16 September 2020 (UTC)

Significant coverage has been met, from reliable and "independent sources". In case of Aliza Ayaz a lot of her article is backed by UCL(non-independent source).

How's about a list of sources for Alexandria Villaseñor that you consider reliable, independent sources, in your own reliable, independent opinion? And what is different about the two subjects' "claim to fame"? Esowteric+Talk 11:16, 16 September 2020 (UTC)

AfD Nominator's COI editing at Aliza Ayaz: Complaint posted

I have now posted a complaint about AngusMEOW – (originally Angus1986, then AngusMEOW, QuantumUniverse, and now QuantumRealm):

COI editing by AfD nominator: Might I please ask the nominator of this ongoing AfD [AngusMEOW] not to make any more potentially tendentious edits to Aliza Ayaz that undermine the subject's notability (for example, through the removal of two reliable references and the selective reinstatement of just one), and to also refrain from reverting my addition of wikilinks in the List of British Pakistanis and a wikilink and content about the subject at Rare FM? Above all, this raises ethical questions about a conflict of interest and of propriety. Furthermore, I have been accused of having a "COI on Aliza Ayaz based on the number of edits performed" by AngusMEOW in both this AfD and at the sockpuppet investigation of Az.jooma. I have no links to the subject or to any of the other editors or suspected sockpuppets. Stand down, Trooper! Thank you. Esowteric+Talk 07:40, 17 September 2020 (UTC)

"The following is a list of notable British Pakistanis, namely notable citizens or residents of the United Kingdom whose ethnic origins lie in Pakistan". Maybe I misinterpreted the list requirements? Esowteric+Talk 08:01, 17 September 2020 (UTC)

I stopped making edits on Aliza Ayaz as discussed on my talk page on 15th September. Removing promotion content by the suspected sock puppets isn't COI editing. Let the subject establish notability first. All the experienced New Page Reviewers have clearly mentioned that this should be Drafted, so just adding the subject on various Wiki pages isn't ethical. Moreover, if you look at SPI it now indicates promotion than COI, GeneralNotability already posted a message on Az.jooma to disclose paid editing, which they haven't replied. Thank you! Cheers. ^_^ AngusMEOW (chatter • paw trail) 11:01, 17 September 2020 (UTC)

With respect, AngusMEOW: What is required, not only of content creators and maintainers, but also new page patrollers and AfD nominators is not just an insight into reliable, independent sources, but a reliable, independent, and flexible attitude. Esowteric+Talk 09:44, 19 September 2020 (UTC)

A kitten for you!

I do not want to have a conflict with you. I understand you have raised a complaint against me, let us resolve it with peaceful discussions as per the rules here on Wikipedia. I respect you as a senior editor. Ping me every time you mention me in the discussion(of complaint), so I can give a reply. Thank you so much! <3 ^_^

AngusMEOW (chatter • paw trail) 11:35, 17 September 2020 (UTC)

Aliza Ayaz

There was a lot going in the AFD discussion, but I moved the article to draftspace. As most of your work occurred after most of the AFD !votes, I thought I'd let you know. You are welcome to submit it for review through the AFC process. the article is at Draft:Aliza Ayaz. Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 15:02, 23 September 2020 (UTC)

Many thanks for your decision and for letting me know, Eddie891. Esowteric + Talk + Breadcrumbs 15:09, 23 September 2020 (UTC)

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Naming children in infoboxes

You reverted the addition of Joaquin Phoenix's child's name to the article infobox with the rationale: needs a reliable source. I could point to dozens of reliable sources; it has been well-documented that Phoenix and his partner Rooney Mara named their child after Phoenix's brother River Phoenix. The real reason to disinclude this information in the infobox is that we never name people's children in the infobox unless those children are themselves notable. This is, I think, mostly just a style issue (see {{Infobox person}}), but may also may be an issue of privacy in most cases. In this case, I don't know that privacy applies, again, because of the plethora of sources available that have reported this information. WikiDan61^ChatMe!_ReadMe!! 19:10, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for the explanation. Esowteric + Talk + Breadcrumbs 19:25, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

Thanks!

Thanks very much for the intro - I will look at everything you have kindly sent. I confess I am a bit confused, there's a lot to learn! Will remember to sign too - I hope this is right and thanks again, Miles Miles Quest (talk) 13:06, 18 October 2020 (UTC)

You're welcome, Miles. Esowteric + Talk + Breadcrumbs 13:10, 18 October 2020 (UTC)

Just saying hi

Hi lad ... What the hell? by the way ... Why did you block me from editing in wikipedia ... Also the nonsenses in webpage of 1001 nights ... I read all tales and books of 1001 nights and I am a history professor in Iran ... I edit the page and the information was totaly correct... Please reply me soon LilCorporalRipper (talk) 21:22, 23 October 2020 (UTC)

Hi, Soundofmusicals has left an explanation on your talk page. Sorry, I didn't mean to jump on you. I haven't blocked you from editing, I just undid (reverted) your edit, and you are unfree to undo my edit to restore the content you changed and added. If the changes are controversial (eg whether the origin of 1001 Nights is Arabic or Persian), you really need to discuss the matter on the article's talk page and get a consensus. Esowteric + Talk + Breadcrumbs 08:25, 24 October 2020 (UTC)

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