User talk:Elkman/Archive15

Archives

Thank-you notes for RFAs have been archived here. August 6, 2005 - May 25, 2006 May 25, 2006 - July 23, 2006 July 24, 2006 July 24, 2006 - September 1, 2006 September 1, 2006 - December 24, 2006 December 31, 2006 - April 28, 2007 April 12, 2007 - September 12, 2007 September 11, 2007 - December 5, 2007 December 6, 2007 - March 23, 2008 March 24, 2008 - July 1, 2008 June 27, 2008 - November 4, 2008 November 5, 2008 - February 11, 2009 April 1, 2009 February 17, 2009 - June 1, 2009

Just in case "The Joy" is watching: Because EricBarbour brought my name up in this thread, several months after my de-adminning. Next time, try to connect the dots. --Elkman ^(Elkspeak) 12:55, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

NRIS listing codes

Here are the statuses for properties that have entries in the National Register database, but that aren't necessarily certified. Typically, the ones I've seen that are problematic are "RN" (removed from the National Register) and "DO" (determined eligible, but the owner objected to having it listed on the National Register).

• "AD","ADDITIONAL DOCUMENTATION"
• "BD","BOUNDARY DECREASE"
• "BI","BOUNDARY INCREASE"
• "DC","DETERMINED ELIGIBLE/CERTIFIED DISTRICT"
• "DD","DETERMINED ELIGIBLE/DOE PROCESS"
• "DF","DETERMINED ELIGIBLE/RETURNED FED. NOMINATION"
• "DI","DETERMINED INELIGIBLE"
• "DO","DETERMINED ELIGIBLE/OWNER OBJECTION"
• "DP","DATE RECEIVED/PENDING OWNER OBJECTION"
• "DR","DATE RECEIVED/PENDING NOMINATION"
• "DW","DETERMINED ELIGIBLE/WITHDRAWN"
• "LI","LISTED IN THE NATIONAL REGISTER"
• "NA","NATIONAL LANDMARK BOUNDARY APPROVED"
• "NL","DESIGNATED NATIONAL LANDMARK"
• "NX","NATIONAL LANDMARK STATUS REMOVED"
• "PM","PROPERTY MOVED"
• "RE","REMOVED FROM ELIGIBLE LIST"
• "RN","REMOVED FROM NATIONAL REGISTER"
• "UN","DESIGNATED UNIT OF THE NATIONAL PARK SERVICE"

To all of you watching on Wikipedia Review: Go ahead and point out what a bad edit this is. Go ahead and point out how unconstructive it is for me to be writing about anything on the National Register of Historic Places. You people are really having a lot of fun with this, aren't you? --Elkman ^(Elkspeak) 15:27, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

• I'm not on wikipedia review, but I'll continue to remind you that many of us respect your edits and contributions. dm (talk) 00:48, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

Hmm. I registered at WR, just so I could read the threads. Why do people waste their time there, when they could be doing something productive? And, why pay any attention at all to people who choose to spend their time in such a way? I personally find this edit to be very helpful. I enjoy and respect your NRHP work. As a matter of fact, if you had a minute to look at Wikipedia:Peer review/National Register of Historic Places listings in Syracuse, New York/archive1, I'd very much appreciate and value your input. Thanks. Lvklock (talk) 16:08, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for this! I've copied it over to WP:NRHP. Nyttend (talk) 01:36, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

Minnesota

Hi, Elkman; are you around? A new editor has been making changes to Minnesota that are hard for me to keep up with; Awickert is apparently away as well, so I was hoping you might look at this diff to see if everything is in order. I've been trying to clean it up, but I'm not sure how things stand there or if the changes are an improvement. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:48, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

Looking closer, I can't decipher how those race and ethnicity numbers were generated from the source given; I left a message for Cool Stuff Is Cool (talk · contribs) a few days ago, and got no response, more of same. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:55, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

I'm around, but not really all that active these days. I've been busy with an off-Wikipedia project lately, and I've had sort of a sour attitude toward Wikipedia for the last couple months. Anyway, to answer your question: I'm not that well-versed on Minnesota's demographic data, since I don't have the sources readily available. The edits that Cool Stuff Is Cool (talk · contribs) is making look legitimate, but I can't tell if they're 100% accurate. You might want to ask at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Minnesota to see if someone there has more experience with demographic data and could validate these edits. --Elkman ^(Elkspeak) 14:44, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

Since none of the (historically) most active editors of that article are around right now, I think I'll just hold off and keep an eye on it .. it can always be repaired later if there's a problem. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:00, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

Update, I don't know Nyttend (talk · contribs), but it seems to have been addressed now. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:56, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

Hi Sandy. This editor's update to demographics of Minneapolis was correct so I think not to worry. I checked after Elkman's revert. -SusanLesch (talk) 04:56, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

---

Hi Elkman, I've been trying to make a wikipedia profile page on myself for work purposes and it says you deleted if last October.-

-04:57, 5 October 2008 Elkman (talk | contribs) deleted "Michael shmerling" ‎ (A7 (bio): Doesn't indicate importance or significance of a real person) 

Any chance you could put it back up, im using it to gain work in my chosen field.

the writing below is what I was hoping the page to read, any chance you could help?

Michael Shmerling

Michael Leon Shmerling born 19th August 1986 is an up and coming radio host/producer/copywriter currently on Melbourne community radio station 88.3fm Southern FM.

Completed Jim Barbour's Commercial Radio course at Melbourne's Swinburne University in 2008, Michael is currently working at Melbourne's Vega 91.5fm which is apart of DMG Radio which also owns the Nova network.

Michael has hosted events like Syn FM's Community day at Carlton Primary School in 2008 as well as produced Get Cereal, the breakfast show also on Syn FM.

While looking for his big break in the radio industry, Michael also coaches Australian Rules Football.

He proudly supports the Essendon Football Club —Preceding unsigned comment added by M.shmerling (talk • contribs) 14:59, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

Autopatrol

I've added autopatrol to your user rights, so any new articles you create will be automatically marked as patrolled on New Pages. Acroterion _(talk) 18:42, 22 June 2009

An observation

It's June 30th! --149.4.110.97 (talk) 18:12, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

All day, unless it rains. Jonathunder (talk) 19:16, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

I'm not sure what the significance of June 30th is, other than that the year is half over, or that CONvergence (convention) starts in two days. --Elkman ^(Elkspeak) 21:42, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

Perhaps the IP, whose only edit appears to be the one above, guessed today was your unbirthday? Jonathunder (talk) 22:01, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

Thanks

		The NRHP Table-izer Barnstar
		I award you this Barnstar for your contributions in table-izing multiple states' NRHP list-tables. As one editor put it, just before midnight U.S. Eastern time on July 4, Hey, between us we got it all done. Hooray!! In fact we met multiple goals in table-izing list-articles covering all 83,973 NRHPs nation-wide during February 2008 to July 4, 2009. Thanks for making it possible! Hope you had a great Fourth! -- Doncram, 5 July 2008

All hail Elkman, without whom this would not have been possible. (ok, so some of us *could* have written it as well, but whats important is that we did not, Elkman did) dm (talk) 19:03, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

Infobox generator

Hey Elkman, I wasn't aware that you were active again, so I left a message over at WT:NRHP#Cleaning up Elkman's Infobox generator output. Your comments would be appreciated! Thanks! --Dudemanfellabra (talk) 21:27, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

Norris District

Hi, Elkman. At Norris District, what did you mean by "approximately the southwest half" in "its 4,000 acres (16 km²) area includes approximately the southwest half of the 6.9 square miles (17.8 km²) area of the city of Norris, Tennessee"? Looking at the metric values, 16 km2 (actually, 4000 acres is 16.2 km2) is a whole lot more than half of 17.8 km2. Can you supply the data in a form that would let me figure out what's not included? --Orlady (talk) 19:00, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

I'm mapping it out in Google Earth. The coordinates of the historic district, in decimal degrees, are:

Point 0: 36.21422707, -84.06055369

Point 1: 36.19617247, -84.04111584

Point 2: 36.17172986, -84.07278017

Point 3: 36.19867703, -84.09750582

If you have access to Google Earth or something similar, then you could probably plot those points and visualize these boundaries. I'd be willing to draw a map for it and put it in the article, but I'm at work right now and I don't have Quantum GIS handy. I've been thinking that for a lot of the NRHP articles that include an area, instead of just a point coordinate, it would be useful to draw maps that show the boundary points of those districts. That would make it easier for readers to see what's included in a historic district.

Another thing that's throwing the acreage off is that the boundaries of this historic district are drawn generously, in order to contain all of the populated part of Norris, so parts outside the incorporated area are included in the historic district. As I speculated, though, the boundaries may include properties that aren't contributing properties. --Elkman ^(Elkspeak) 19:29, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

On the other hand, those coordinates in the spatial database (spatial.mdb) may be a rough approximation and may not truly reflect the proper size of the district. I checked the four points listed as boundaries for Summit Avenue (St. Paul), and the polygon described by those four points doesn't correspond to the "Irregular pattern from Pleasant and Grand Aves. to Holly and Marshall Aves., from Lexington Pkwy. to 4th and Pleasant" described in the article. If you believe the spatial database, the Xcel Energy High Bridge Plant is included in the historic district, and that's completely inaccurate. It also includes a lot of area east of Interstate 35E (Minnesota) along West 7th Street which I'm pretty sure isn't included. Also, the boundaries listed in spatial.mdb for Irvine Park Historic District are off -- it excludes the top half of the territory that I know is part of Irvine Park, and includes a lot of territory that's not historic west of Wilkin Street. In other words, forget what I said about that spatial database because it's only an approximation. --Elkman ^(Elkspeak) 20:01, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for verifying that the district is 4,000 acres and not 40,000. It looks like extra zeros got added to the areas of many, if not all, Tennessee historic districts (in NRIS). Those coordinates are definitely off. Point 3 (36.17172986, -84.07278017), in particular, is in an area that no sensible person would accuse of being historic. --Orlady (talk) 20:29, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

FWIW, it looks like there are also some NRIS acreage errors for HDs in Connecticut, based on my observations of Wauregan and Willington Common Historic District. --Orlady (talk) 19:57, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

Downtown Boulder Historic District

Good job on finding the buildings in the district! When I was in Boulder in March, all I could find were modern buildings. Nyttend (talk) 16:46, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

A lot of the historic buildings are on Pearl Street in Boulder's downtown. There's a four-block pedestrian mall on Pearl Street between 11th and 15th Streets that features a lot of historic buildings, and there are plaques that provide historic interpretation. The mall (and other sections of Pearl Street) also has several interesting shops, street performers, outdoor concerts, and the like. It was enough to keep a tourist like me entertained. If you ever go back there again, check it out. --Elkman ^(Elkspeak) 18:02, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

InsideNorthside - A North Minneapolis Encyclopedia

Hi, I noticed you've edited some articles related to North Minneapolis and I wanted to tell you about a project I'm involved in called InsideNorthside. It's basically a wikipedia for North Minneapolis, built on wikispaces (which is a bit more user-friendly then mediawiki, though not nearly as robust). Anyways, wanted you to know. I'm trying to find some wiki experts to help build an initial user base for the site. Check it out and let me know what you think. http://insidenorthside.org —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ariahfine (talk • contribs) 01:16, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

Contributing Properties

Hey Elkman, I am actually systematically going through all the contributing properties and converting them to a new syntax that was just implemented in a recent edit to Infobox nrhp. I tell you this because I see from some of your recent edits, you've added CP infoboxes to several articles (Aztec Bowl (stadium), Hardy Memorial Tower, and Hepner Hall at least.. maybe more). I had already gone through all the articles beginning with letters up to I, so these showed up in the category. The change of syntax hasn't been documented yet, but it is as follows:

If a contributing property is not listed individually on the register and is just a CP, no "refnum" should be supplied. Instead, a new "partof" parameter is used to show the name of the district to which the property contributes and link to it if it exists. Then, a new "partof_refnum" parameter holds the reference number of the district. If a CP is individually listed, then "refnum" holds that building or site's individual listing number, and "partof_refnum" holds the district's number. This allows more information about the site to be put into the infobox while also distinguishing between CPs that aren't listed individually and CPs that are listed. For the dates, "added" still holds the date that the district was added for non-listed CPs, but for listed CPs, "added" holds the CP's added date, and "designated_nrhp_type" holds the district's added date.

I think the plan is that after the syntax has been updated in all the CP articles, new code will be added to Infobox nrhp that will remove the light blue "National Register of Historic Places" bar from all CPs that aren't individually listed. This will hopefully reduce confusion about the register and the fact that just because a building is a CP to a district doesn't mean it is listed itself.

I was just letting you know of this syntax update before you began adding CP infoboxes to articles. I'm working on and off in that category to try to clear them up (I'm down to about 800 more articles to go), and once I'm done, all this will be documented and put into action. --Dudemanfellabra (talk) 22:54, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

I wasn't aware of that change. Thanks for letting me know -- I'll keep it in mind for future infobox usage. I've only added contributing property infoboxes for those three SDSU properties lately, mainly because someone put Hardy Memorial Tower up for deletion. Some of the information in a contributing property infobox requires a little more research and tweaking than what the infobox generator provides, so I haven't added too many of them. --Elkman ^(Elkspeak) 02:40, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

Sorry . . .

I got confused on removing previous versions, or just editing the article.

Eltownse (talk) 15:33, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

NRHP train stations

Hi, I've been bumping into a lot of train station name issues, while working on Union Station (disambiguation) and have put up several for requested move, including at Talk:Waterbury (Metro-North station) and Talk:Texarkana (Amtrak station). I also tried opening some broader discussion at someplace like Talk:Naming conventions (stations), linked from those. Your participation as a trains and NRHP person would be appreciated! Also, thanks for fixing up the St. James Hotel article which i had created while doing other disambiguation. It seems to be written very well now. :) doncram (talk) 01:16, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

Scaling of {{Location map California}}

Hi Elkman. Thanks for adjusting the scaling. I appreciate it. MissionInn.Jim (talk) 13:21, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

Followup on restricted address question

Some time ago, in response to a question from me, you noted that there are errors in the NRIS restricted address field, and you used Louisville's Second and Market Streets Historic District as an example. I reported by email this as an error a few days ago, and I just received an email from an NPS official who states that the form really is marked as restricted; he says he's going to contact the Kentucky historic preservation people, since it is a rather revealing name. Nyttend (talk) 15:31, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

Area field in infobox generator

Thanks very much for your input on my how-to-use-.dbf question; I'll see what I can do, now that I know somewhat how to do it. Even more, thanks for implementing the area field in the generator! Nyttend (talk) 05:38, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

Thank you, too, for your guidance on Orlady's talk page on how to open the main database; I've been able to open the files as you said. One question — where did you get the coordinates for properties? I've not found any degree-minute-second tables anywhere, and I've not found UTM locations in the main database, although it's in the Access database that I downloaded some time ago. Nyttend (talk) 20:27, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

St. Paul's Episcopal Church (Cleveland Heights, Ohio)

Thanks for the insight; your comments are enough to make me want to withdraw the nomination. Nyttend (talk) 01:28, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

NRHP question

I've taken pictures of dozens (if not 100) listings, so I think I have a good feel for what might be registered. I took 9 pictures yesterday in Columbus, Wisconsin (including a Frank Lloyd Wright house!). I'm confused by one entry at National_Register_of_Historic_Places_listings_in_Wisconsin#Calumet_County, the Haese Memorial Village Historic District at Forest Junction. I've driven to take photographs about 3 or 4 times, and each time I leave scratching my head trying to figure out how any of these buildings (besides one) could possibly be listed on the National Register. Most are run down, except the Forest Junction State Bank at N8815 Main St. How can I find out exactly which buildings are on the register? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Royalbroil (talk • contribs) 08:00, 12 September 2009

According to the alternate name field in the National Register database, it's also known as "F.G. Haese General Merchandise Store". This article from the Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel on June 26, 1982 says that the buildings included a general store and living quarters, a carriage house, a hardware store and warehouse, a machine shed, a barn, and a smokehouse. At the time, the buildings were "well preserved", but I imagine a lot could change between 1982 and 2009. Usually, the Google Maps link from the infobox generator gives a good impression of where the buildings are. From that link, it looks like the Haese Memorial Village Historic District is at the northern dead end of Randolph Street. Of course, they give an interesting address: "Milwaukee and Randolph Streets" -- which run parallel to each other. I did a little more searching, but I can't really tell what buildings from the overhead photo are most likely to be the ones you're looking for.

If you have an iPhone, or another phone with Web access or Google Maps access, the infobox generator has a handy link to a Google Maps depiction. I've used that myself on some of my own NRHP tours. Still, there are properties that are just hard to find, or that are hard to photograph. I went back this weekend and got a new picture of the J.C. Carlson House in Chisago County, Minnesota. The address on Bremer Avenue had all sorts of trees in front of it and last time I was there, I couldn't get a good photo of it at all. This time, I came in from the back (on Alger Avenue) and got a picture. I also finally found the Northeastern Hotel in Cloquet, Minnesota (it's sort of north of town on an island) and a fish house in Beaver Bay, MN. So, sometimes finding an NRHP site requires a little bit of sleuthing. --Elkman ^(Elkspeak) 03:21, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for all of the research, Elkman, it's been helpful. The list of buildings might help me find it, especially the article in the Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel. The north dead end of Randolph is a bunch of run down houses on a cul de sac. I knew that the map was off after my first visit. I've never found the coordinates to be wrong before. I wonder if it's gone. I know some people that might know the local history going far into the past, but it might be too far away from where they live. Unfortunately, there are enough unphotographable places that I never can quite finish a county list - either there is a shipwreck on Lake Michigan or an effigy mound with undisclosed location (or be plowed out of existence). Royalbroil 00:22, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

Elkman Tool Down?

Just tried to access the Elkman tool and got an "Oops! This link appears to be broken" error. Hopefully this is just a temporary problem.--Pubdog (talk) 09:58, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

I had a power outage last night, from about midnight CDT until 4:30 AM. It's back up and running now. --Elkman ^(Elkspeak) 13:23, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Phew! Thanks for taking care of that so quickly!--Pubdog (talk) 21:48, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Blackout Crew

Hi there. I noticed that you were an editor that deleted the Blackout Crew wikipedia page. Do you happen to have saved off a copy of it? The band are notable due to the fact that the album is #42 on the British album chart this week and hence satisfies "Has had a charted single or album on any national music chart" on WP:Music under "Criteria for musicians and ensembles". I was going to use the old version of the page to create a new, tidy and sourced version. Technohead1980 (talk) 13:37, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

You'll have to ask another admin about this, because I lost admin privileges in January. Ask someone at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard. I never saved copies of the pages I deleted, because administrators can undelete pages (except in rare cases, when those edits have been oversighted). --Elkman ^(Elkspeak) 13:52, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

OK cheers mr. I'll give it a go. Technohead1980 (talk) 11:15, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

Minnesota Meetup

---

2009

Proposed date: Saturday, October 10.
Details under discussion.

Please share this with anyone who may be interested.

---

Delivered by Jonathunder (talk) 15:22, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

coord_display = title,inline

Could we have "coord_display=title,inline" added to your NRHP infobox tool? This should probably be discussed at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject National Register of Historic Places, but I thought I'd ask you first 'cause you're the person that has to do the work.

It's my understanding that the coords need to appear with the title parameter set for Google and Bing to put the place on the map (see Template:Coord#Purpose about nine lines down). In an ideal world, I might eliminate the coords from the infobox and put them only in the title, but if you try to do that (with "coord_display=inline"), the word "Coordinates" still appears, with no numbers, in the infobox.

If this is an ancient discussion, just shoo me away to wherever it was archived. Reply here, please. Thanks for this and for the effort of maintaining the tool, . . . . Jim . . . . Jameslwoodward (talk • contribs) 21:50, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

I could add it, but I'm just wondering why the default for {{Infobox nrhp}} doesn't use "coord_display=title,inline". It seems to me that the default display should be in the title and inline, unless there's some reason (like another infobox's coordinates also being displayed on the title line). If this is the case, then that editor should alter the coord_display parameter in the NRHP infobox. On another note, I guess this explains why I've added some NRHP articles and they haven't shown up on Google Earth, or why their coordinates don't display on the title line. --Elkman ^(Elkspeak) 22:01, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

I agree that it would be even better to have the default for {{Infobox nrhp}} be "coord_display=title,inline". Could you raise it at Template talk:Infobox nrhp? I'm sure your suggestion will have more weight than mine.. . . . Jim . . . . Jameslwoodward (talk • contribs) 12:08, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

Infobox help

Hey Elkman, can you take a look at the hybrid infobox for Robert Fulton Birthplace. I updated, but cannot get rid of the [[]] after the Designated. Please advise how to correct this unfortunate error I unwittingly introduced. TIA--Pubdog (talk) 01:27, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

Apparently, the "designated_nrhp_type" parameter doesn't work unless you specify "nrhp_type=nhl" (or whatever the actual type is). You would have needed "nrhp_type=nhl" anyway since it's a National Historic Landmark. I fixed it for you. --Elkman ^(Elkspeak) 04:01, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

Thanks!--Pubdog (talk) 09:38, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

Tool trouble?

All that comes out is after entering either a name or reference number is

[begins]

Infobox Creator

Want to get the infobox for 82002748 latitude: 42o 15' 34 north longitude: 71o 2' 58 west {{Location|42|15|34|N|71|2|58|W}}

Google Maps

GeoHack maps

Commons upload description

Trying get_mpslink

Got query select state, mpsname, pdflink from mpsref where mpsname like '%%' and state = 'MA';

Got zelda 64000269.pdf

[ends]

I don't think I'm doing anything different... . . . . Jim . . . . Jameslwoodward (talk • contribs) 13:30, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

I was doing testing on a live set of PHP scripts. I'm working on generating a link to the Multiple Property Submission for properties that have one. I was having trouble with it, so I had a lot of debugging stuff in there. (That's why I substituted "Zelda" for "Link".) It should be up and running correctly now... maybe. --Elkman ^(Elkspeak) 13:40, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

And, it turns out that I didn't even need to do that query for properties that aren't part of an MPS. Brilliant. I should have used the Triforce of Debugging or the Triforce of the PHP reference manual. --Elkman ^(Elkspeak) 13:47, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

Working here now, thanks. . . . . Jim . . . . Jameslwoodward (talk • contribs) 13:59, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

Query -- is the tool supposed to show National Historic Landmark status in the nrhp_type? Or do we have to dig that out elsewhere? (see Capt. Robert B. Forbes House, MA #66000651) . . . . Jim . . . . Jameslwoodward (talk • contribs) 14:18, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

It doesn't show National Historic Landmark status because that information isn't in the National Register database that I downloaded. The National Historic Landmarks Program has its landmarks listed differently, and not in a format that I can load into a database (at least not yet). The NRIS database has a field listing whether a property was studied as part of another survey, like the National Historic Landmarks program, Historic American Buildings Survey, Historic American Engineering Record, or others, but I found that the NHL listing in there wasn't reliable. --Elkman ^(Elkspeak) 15:26, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

I suppose I could have figured that out from the fact that the names aren't the same in the two data bases (Great Blue Hill Weather Observatory and Blue Hill Meteorological Observatory). Thanks, . . . . Jim . . . . Jameslwoodward (talk • contribs) 16:27, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

mps

Hey, thanks for adding mps links into the nrhp infobox generator! I just noticed it when creating Southwest Holly Springs Historic District in Mississippi just now (in order to capture a street address correction). The PDF link is clickable, but the output seems just slightly garbled in its display right now, as in this version of the SW Holly Springs HD article. I look forward to these appearing in more new articles, thanks again. doncram (talk) 23:24, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, I goofed when I printed out the output from the link. I was outputting the link in HTML, but it should have been in Wiki markup. It's fixed now. --Elkman ^(Elkspeak) 03:54, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

Thanks from me too! The fruits of your labor help me tremendously with one less thing I need to check. See Adsit Cobblestone Farmhouse. Best wishes!--Pubdog (talk) 13:18, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

Make it three sets of thanks -- does this deserve a comment at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject National Register of Historic Places -- I suspect that many of us don't update the infobox if it doesn't obviously need it, but with this change, the coord_display, and the earlier addition of area, it's important to do so. Query -- should this be a named ref, rather than just a link -- there's usually stuff in the MPS doc that will support the article? . . . . Jim . . . . Jameslwoodward (talk • contribs) 14:54, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

Say what?

Why would I block you? For saying what I've been thinking? --Orlady (talk) 21:20, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

For disagreeing with Doncram. --Elkman ^(Elkspeak) 21:23, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

Am I missing something?--Pubdog (talk) 01:14, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

Found it Sorry--Pubdog (talk) 10:08, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

Counting

As long as you don't use the Arthurian counting method: "One, two, FIVE!" "Three, my lord." "Three!" Acroterion _(talk) 13:52, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

I copied the following thread over to User talk:Acroterion#3RR thread is copied here from Elkman's talk, since some participants (below) felt that this page was not a proper environment. Please continue the discussion over there. You can undo my closure of this discussion if you disagree. EdJohnston (talk) 19:40, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

Assuming that this thread is a reference to a certain 3RR case, take a look at User talk:Acroterion#Ideas for resolving the open 3RR case. Acro has said he will give a longer response later today. I think that any solution might need to include some of the 1RR ideas mentioned in his first response in the AN3 case, and a ban on splits and merges, unless agreed by consensus or blessed by Acroterion. Also I hope that somebody (anybody!) can make a complete list of all the articles in Connecticut where there has been a dispute regarding the scope of the historic district. Maybe a global compromise could be agreed if we knew all the cases in dispute. EdJohnston (talk) 19:00, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

I don't have any objections to this, if the parties involved can come to an agreement and stop getting involved in revert wars. The dispute isn't just limited to articles about Connecticut, though -- it's involved Silver City, Idaho (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views), Virginia City, Nevada (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (cue Bonanza theme music), Chiricahua National Monument (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) in Arizona, and San Miguel Island (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) in California, among others. Since "all the cases in dispute" potentially includes (from Doncram's point of view) any article that Polaron edits, dispute resolution is becoming a Herculean task. If there's no peace to be gained between Polaron and Doncram, then arbitration might be necessary. --Elkman ^(Elkspeak) 19:49, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

And don't forget Vermont, Rhode Island, and Massachusetts. --Orlady (talk) 20:44, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

That's why any action on my part will be contingent on good behavior; this has to stop metastasizing. I had resolved to take it to AN3 if it got out of hand; Elkman beat me there (and thanks for doing the diff-related legwork). There's a limit to how much scolding can accomplish, and I'm sufficiently involved that any 3RR block I imposed would make things worse. I've outlined a process on my talk page; comments are welcome on the process (i.e., no manifestos or position papers, this is not the occasion). Acroterion _(talk) 20:56, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Right. It's even gotten to the point where I've been reading up on the historic district areas on Mantorville, Minnesota, Carver, Minnesota, Marine on St. Croix, Minnesota, and Center City, Minnesota, just so I could have a defense ready in case someone wanted to start revert wars on those articles. All of Mantorville is included in a historic district, while only subsections of Marine on St. Croix are included. Carver's is defined fairly clearly in the NRHP description. Meanwhile, Center City Historic District just includes buildings on one street. I wouldn't mind actually developing content for those articles, instead of having to have the exact boundaries ready, but if I really have to list township, range, and fractions of sections, at least I know where to find them. I'm going to get really cranky if someone demands that I find a plat map of Rice and Irvine's Addition to Saint Paul, though. --Elkman ^(Elkspeak) 21:12, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

Oh but it has :) [1]. In any case, I apologize for dragging you (and a whole bunch of other people) into this mess. From this point forward, I will request comments in cases where I have doubts about whether a redirect is appropriate or not. --Polaron | Talk 01:19, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

Actually, just in case anyone asks, I did find a GIS viewer for St. Paul, so I can pick out which properties are in Rice and Irvine's Addition: [2] --Elkman ^(Elkspeak) 21:23, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

Elkman: Regarding the 3RR case, what would you think of a rule that neither Doncram or Polaron could make a revert, a merge, a redirect, or an edit for 90 days on anything NRHP-related that would advance his side of a dispute? Any exception to this rule would have to be approved by a Talk page consensus, by an RfC, or by Acroterion if no consensus could be found or if there were too few participants for a proper discussion. EdJohnston (talk) 01:38, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

I'm not Elkman, but I think this is a good proposal. Additionally, I think there should be some limit on the length and frequency of comments in talk pages and RfCs -- this is not an exercise in drowning one's opponent in words. Also, I think the volume of activity requiring mediation is likely to exceed Acroterion's capacity (this has already occurred), so at least one additional "neutral third party" ought to be designated. --Orlady (talk) 04:48, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

Obviously, I support the 1RR suggestion as well, and I second Orlady on the limitation on position statements. The positions of the participants are well-known, and recent comments have devolved into interpretations of the actions and motivations of others, which are unproductive and unconducive to assumptions of good faith. As for help, I'm all for it. The number of currently-disputed articles is in the hundreds now, and the potential areas of dispute could easily run into thousands. Additional eyes will also provide a sanity check. Acroterion _(talk) 12:18, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

EdJohnston: That rule sounds good to me, although I'd recommend defining it as historic districts in general. I'm just concerned that one of the parties will find a way to snipe around the edges of this rule. Orlady's and Acroterion's suggestions about a neutral third party are also good, because there could be a lot of articles in dispute. And, Orlady is correct about the length of comments -- the amount of verbiage in these discussions has been out of control. Poquetanuck (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) is 3512 bytes now, while Talk:Poquetanuck (edit | article | history | links | watch | logs) is 148914 bytes. That's a 42.4:1 ratio of talk to article, which is just ridiculous. I don't know how you can place an enforceable length on discussion comments, but a warning to the participants should be sufficient.

I'd also suggest that Doncram should stop following Polaron around and checking up on his edits, and that Polaron should work a little more on documenting the reasons that a community is historic and/or provide a link to further sources about the history of an area. I can give some examples about how I think four communities in Minnesota should be handled. (The examples are Center City, Marine on St. Croix, Mantorville, and Carver, as I mentioned above.) --Elkman ^(Elkspeak) 13:39, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

Echoing part of Elkman's comment, some issues would be resolved far more cleanly if Polaron would start consistently citing his sources when he adds content to articles. For example, in this diff he mentioned his sources in the edit summary, but did not provide citations (I subsequently added a source to that article, but not one of the ones he mentioned). If he had cited sources on his first edit two hours earlier, the subsequent edit war over that article might have been avoided. --Orlady (talk) 15:05, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

Hello Elkman, Polaron, Doncram, Orlady and Acroterion. Here's my revised proposal.

Doncram and Polaron are under an editing restriction for 6 months, on articles that are related to NRHP. They may not exceed one revert per article per day (a 1RR rule). In addition, neither party can make a revert, a merge, a redirect, or an edit on anything NRHP-related that would advance his side of a dispute. For instance, redirecting historic districts to towns, or undoing such redirects. Any exception to this rule would have to be approved by a Talk page consensus, by an RfC, or by Acroterion if no consensus could be found or if there were too few participants for a proper discussion. Neither party may add unsourced material to an NRHP-related article. If Acroterion believes either party is not following the restriction, he may present the matter at WP:AN3 for possible sanctions.

Is that better? Can anyone suggest improvements? What about finding an additional mediator besides Acroterion for times when he is too busy? EdJohnston (talk) 16:47, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

I object, that is not acceptable to me. I have done nothing but try to work constructively, try to build consensus, open Talk page discussions, work out a 4 or 5 part categorization of the types of issues and how they could be resolved, open 7 batches of RFDs which took a bunch of the problem off the table, advertise an RFC, seek constructive input, negotiate a mediation approach with Polaron that he and I would agree to accept to terminate discussions about specific contested cases, and invite a different editor and Acroterion to serve in that role, make suggestions to Acroterion on how to manage the process along, propose focusing on several New London county test cases where there was not previously a bitter history, work in discussion at Talk:Poquetanuck towards a grand proposal to settle all the CT cases, etc., etc. all basically bending over backwards to give benefit of the doubt to Polaron's personal knowledge of CT places, despite his previous inability or unwillingness to provide sources for his assertions. I have not edit warred to keep unsourced statements in articles (or if anything could be construed that way it would be related to some complication that I would have been explaining in corresponding Talk pages). My behavior is not to be censured. I appreciate that under a lot of scrutiny now that Polaron may be changing his ways, and that during this long process he has already changed some of his ways. I do wish to apply for Wikipedia Admin status sometime, perhaps soon, and I do not want a 6 month restriction on my editing in the NRHP area, my main area of wikipedia contributions, on my record, for that and in general. doncram (talk) 17:05, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

In fact, I don't blame EdJohnston for this because he is picking up on the tone of comments about me from others, but i am deeply insulted by this proposal. doncram (talk) 17:31, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

Doncram: If you don't like this proposal, and you can't suggest anything better, then I could always open a Request for Arbitration. I don't want to do that, especially against two people within the same project I work on, but it's starting to look like arbitration is the only way this dispute can be addressed. You claim your behavior is not to be censured; I disagree. I really doubt you were previously watching so many of the articles that Polaron has been editing -- I suspect they only hit your radar after you've checked up on his contributions. If you submitted a Request for Adminship, I would oppose and point out examples of your behavior. --Elkman ^(Elkspeak) 17:51, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

WP:RFAR is available for use when the collective admin corps cannot come up with any reasonable solution. I embarked on a lengthy negotiation because I was concerned about the possible loss of long-time content contributors if conventional blocking was used. If we can get no cooperation from either party in a fully-negotiated agreement, then blocking becomes more logical. I hope that Doncram is aware that his edit-warring on NRHP articles is likely to come up for discussion at any future RfA. Even if he is right, administrators are supposed to possess diplomatic skills. If Doncram does possess those skills, why are we here now, and why was this not settled long ago? EdJohnston (talk) 18:05, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

I am resisting the urge to comment on Doncram's reaction because I have been steadfastly trying to avoid direct interpersonal interactions with him. As for a 3rd-party mediator, the best candidates probably would be Wikipedia:Nrhp#Members NRHP Wikiproject members who (1) have not been involved in this saga, (2) are not among the "friends of Doncram" (my term) who predictably send him messages praising his good work and defend him when controversies arise, and (3) have not had negative interactions with either party in the past. --Orlady (talk) 18:17, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

Okay, one problem is having this discussion about me here on Elkman's Talk page. Probably I shouldn't have commented here and seemed to accept the venue, in lieu of discussion at Acroterion's page or somewhere else more neutral. Elkman has had problems with me, as expressed anew a day ago in outburst at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject National Register of Historic Places#This project, to which several people have indeed responded, and in a couple of scattered posts Elkman showed he was troubled by disagreement with his view that was expressed there. I believe it is Elkman's privilege to say directly what he feels here on his own talk page. But I feel constrained in responding, and others will not notice this here or would not comment here in deference to Elkman, who indeed plays a central role in the NRHP wikiproject. If there's to be some administrator's only discussion you can do that wherever you wish, of course. doncram (talk) 18:46, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, it would be kind of nice to not get a bunch of new message notifications on my talk page. And, I forgot that I'm not supposed to express frustration toward you. --Elkman ^(Elkspeak) 18:49, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

"I believe it is Elkman's privilege to say directly what he feels".....this SUPPORTS your right to express your frustration....however, then when anyone disagrees with YOU, you tend to have an odd outburst like the one on my talk page recently. We're ALL frustrated here, and we're ALL expressing it. That's part of discussion and consensus building, at least in theory. Lvklock (talk) 18:56, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Three things

1. I enjoyed your article about the Minnesota bridge. I think it struck me because it contrasted with Paul's Bridge built here somewhat earlier, replacing still earlier bridges. It also looks a lot like the Eliot Memorial Bridge whose photo I took yesterday. Would you be offended if I remixed your photo? It has a fairly heavy magenta cast and it's a nice pic otherwise.
2. I was stupid with your tool this morning -- searched for Jonathan Belcher House and then threw up my hands in dismay when it didn't show up (I will say in my defense that I did search the NPS database for "Belcher House" with no results. One of our colleagues pointed out that it was listed as Belcher, Jonathan House. Of course I know that your tool will do partial names -- I got all the NRHP lights in Maine and Massachusetts that way -- so it was just dumb. Perhaps, ala Google, you could add some text to the failed search page saying that a second try with fewer words might work.
3. I'm sorry we disagree about the value of stubs and the level of accuracy required in them. I firmly believe that we are better for having Masssachusetts mostly stubbed out, vs New Hampshire which has very few. I have no data to support it, but I believe that we are more likely to get others working on the project (small p in project) if they have stubs to start with -- as I said elsewhere, it was 31 months from my first edit to my new first article and that period included a fair amount of stub improvement. Some of Swampyank's Massachusetts stubs are silly, but I think we're better for them. Regards, . . . . Jim . . . . Jameslwoodward (talk • contribs) 23:43, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

1. I couldn't figure out why my pictures of the stone bridge had that sort of magenta tint. I was using a different digital camera, one that I'm not totally familiar with, so I may have gotten some settings wrong. I adjusted the color temperature in Paint Shop Pro and I was going to upload a new version of the photo to Wikimedia Commons. At the moment, though, it's protected, because the image is going to be on Wikipedia's main page in the next DYK update.
2. Yeah, most of the houses in the National Register database are listed by last name first. There are other properties like that, like farmsteads and even the occasional ship. I'll look into putting a suggestion into the "not found" form -- or, maybe I can try inverting the name and requerying the database to see if it can find a house by last name first.
3. I guess I was rather irritated at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject National Register of Historic Places, so maybe I should have rethought through it. I don't mind someone creating a stub and not putting the information in -- as you mentioned, having a stub article can give someone the idea to expand it. What I do mind, though, is when someone creates a stub article and just guesses at the information, or when they're just speculating at something. For example, some time ago I went to take a picture for Moritz Bergstein Shoddy Mill and Warehouse. The rest of the neighborhood had been leveled and cleared out. I can't just say, "It appears that the house is in a neighborhood that will be demolished for construction of the new Highway 36 bridge," unless I actually have a source that says that. Otherwise, I'm just speculating, and that's shoddy workmanship. (Sorry.) I tend to be rather perfectionistic, and maybe I'm unfairly expecting that of others, but when an article contains speculations or guesses, it doesn't look very encyclopedic. --Elkman ^(Elkspeak) 00:23, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

1. I've use Corel Photo-Paint for 15 years rather than Paint Shop and I have found that it's a lot easier to use a tool that has three sliders (Cyan-Red, Magenta-Green, and Yellow-Blue) rather than a color temperature tool. You might look for a similar tool in Paint Shop.
2. I wouldn't spend a lot of time making the tool smarter, just give a hint that might make the user smarter.
3. I certainly agree with you in a proper article -- but if someone's creating a stub, I'd allow a little more leeway -- I guess I'd put pure speculation on the talk page, but an well educated guess might go in the article. The funny thing about actually going out and taking photos is that it looks to me like original research. Who's to say I have the right building? Just my integrity, skill, judgment. (In fact the old B&W photo that was in the Milton, MA list until yesterday for the Observation Tower on Great Blue Hill was the wrong building).

So it sounds perfectly legitimate to say, in the article, that you went to the address given in the listing, scouted around for a few blocks, and couldn't find the building. That's particularly true if you have a reference photo of the building (presumably not public domain or not good quality).

If a house on the National Register gets torn down and it's a minor house it may well not be reported anywhere. I don't think it does any good to use the present tense of a house that you know is no longer extant. . . . . Jim . . . . Jameslwoodward (talk • contribs) 01:47, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

DYK for Point Douglas-St. Louis River Road Bridge

On October 9, 2009, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Point Douglas-St. Louis River Road Bridge, which you created or substantially expanded. You are welcome to check how many hits your article got while on the front page (here's how) and add it to DYKSTATS if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

SoWhy 00:28, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

Quantico

In this edit from way back, you piped the link for Quantico Marine Corps Base Historic District to Marine Corps Base Quantico. Would you be willing to create a redirect from the NRHP name to the current article discussing the topic? I would do it myself except that it might be interpreted as a bad faith action. I do apologize for the problems I have partly caused. Thanks. --Polaron | Talk 22:53, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

Nothing links to Quantico Marine Corps Base Historic District. Why do we need the redirect? --Elkman ^(Elkspeak) 22:54, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

Yes, you're right of course but being an alternative name and even a possible article, it might be actually useful to create the redirect and link to the redirect in the appropriate contexts. Anyway, no biggie. Thanks again. --Polaron | Talk 23:02, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

If I were the one maintaining the article, and I wanted to write about the historic district on the base, I'd begin writing that history section within the Marine Corps Base Quantico article. I'd put in a list of the buildings that are historic, along with a description of why they were nominated to the National Register. Then, if that historic district section overwhelmed the main Quantico article, I'd be inclined to split the National Register district out. The current situation is that the Quantico article has a stub of its historic information and mentions that it contains a district on the National Register. If someone is specifically searching for Quantico Marine Corps Base Historic District, they'll find the main Quantico article. I don't think we need a standalone article, or a standalone redirect, with a standalone title until there's enough information to make an article of its own. --Elkman ^(Elkspeak) 04:40, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

FWIW, I agree with Elkman. --Orlady (talk) 12:58, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

Camp Salmen House

Thank you so much for your assistance on the Camp Salmen House page - User:SCPS70458/Camp_Salmen_House I am going to make a few more improvements and then upload. I am so glad that you changed the photo. I had uploaded it as a higher resolution but when I put the name in the template, it changed the size of the entire box to fit the photo. Do you know what I did wrong? I tried any number of ways to resolve it and finally reduced the resolution and size to fit. My next project is documenting the Francoios Cousin house across the bayou from the Camp Salmen house. The Cousin house was fully restored before being flooded in Katrina and Ike. Almost 5 years later, the National Parks, Historic Preservation, Department of Ag, and FEMA have agreed to a way to elevate it rather than see it lost. I thought documenting the raising process would be interesting and valuable. Would it be appropriate? Thank you, Suzanne or --SCPS70458 (talk) 20:58, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

Martin Weber House

Hi, when working on Weber House dab just now, i noticed Martin Weber House is a property that does not show up as NRHP-listed in "who has" but it has an NRHP infobox and is included in NRHP list for Ramsay County, MN. In your NRHP infobox generator, it shows as having status DR back in 1983. Also, i note that the MPS which the NRHP infobox generator shows for it, the West Seventh Street Early Limestone Houses TR, does not show up in the wp:MPS list. I wonder if the TR was not approved, and the house was not NRHP-listed, or what. I'll record it into wp:NRIS info issues to inquire about it eventually. doncram (talk) 21:46, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

"DR" means "documentation received, pending nomination", but it looks like the nomination never occurred. There are two other houses on that MPS: Anthony Waldman House and Joseph Brings House. I can't tell what the story is with that MPS, but it looks like none of those three houses are listed on the National Register. I'll see if I can find out any more information on them. --Elkman ^(Elkspeak) 22:36, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

New Pages

Hi could you please patrol a page when you tag it as a speedy thanks Avono♂ (talk) 15:59, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

Two things about the Infobox Tool

I assume that you are inverting names that are in NRIS as "Doe, John" into "John Doe". A search on "Paul Revere" in MA comes up empty, but a search on "Revere, Paul" comes up with "Paul Revere House". The first two times I noticed this, I was confused. Maybe others will be also. Maybe you could say, "If you're looking for an individual's name, the National Register usually lists the last name first. If that is the case, the resulting infobox here will show "John Doe", not "Doe, John"."

Also, could we have " | coord_parameters = region:US_type:landmark" in the infobox, for reasons we've discussed? . . . . Jim . . . . Jameslwoodward (talk • contribs) 13:34, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

Make it three things. Chelsea Garden Cemetery comes out of the tool with

• | long_degrees = 71
• | long_minutes = 1
• | long_seconds = 60

Could you check for this and change it appropriately when it happens? Thanks, . . . . Jim . . . . Jameslwoodward (talk • contribs) 22:34, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

Congratulations on 25 DYK's

		The 25 DYK Medal
		It gives me great pleasure to be able to present this award to you for your 25 DYK's as listed on your user page. Your hard work on all aspects of the encyclopedia, but especially in creating DYK quality articles for NRHP sites in Minnesota is greatly appreciated. Many of us depend on your tools and your expertise, please allow us to celebrate this milestone with you. I look forward to you receiving the 50 DYK award soon. dm (talk) 03:47, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

PS: You may want to add yourself to Wikipedia:List of Wikipedians by number of DYKs

Category:Houses on the National Register of Historic Places in Massachusetts Question

I note your changing a number of articles I just illustrated to this category. That's fine, thank you. I'll try to be careful to use the sub-category as I add photos, etc. in the future.

My question is this: If I go to Category:National Register of Historic Places in Massachusetts, I am told, on the first page, that it has 3 subcategories out of 7 total; Category:Houses on the National Register of Historic Places in Massachusetts is not one of the three. The three categories that do appear there all have [[Category:National Register of Historic Places in Massachusetts| ]] (note the pipe space at the end) in their own markup. I assume this is to force them to sort first. Should not all six (excluding Stubs, see below) have the same markup so that they are easy to find in the parent list -- rather than having to go to their first letter for the subject?

The four that don't appear on the first page are:

• Historic Districts
• Stubs
• Houses
• Railway Stations

I note that Category: Massachusetts Registered Historic Place stubs sorts as lower case mu -- before Z. I take it that's part of the stub construct, so that only Historic Districts, Houses, and Railway Stations need to be changed?

I ask rather than just changing them because I'm not sure what policy is here -- sometimes policy appears obvious, but isn't.. . . . Jim . . . . Jameslwoodward (talk • contribs) 11:40, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

I'm not 100% sure what the practice is on sorting subcategories within their parent category. I just checked, and I noticed that Category:Historic districts in Massachusetts has the pipe character and then "Districts" after it, so it sorts into "Districts" when you're browsing by letter. That means you have to go to the third or fourth page, or go to the "D" listings, to see the historic district subcategory. That sort of makes sense, but it still doesn't get it listed on the first page.

The reason I created the subcategory for houses is because there are over 3400 entries in Category:National Register of Historic Places in Massachusetts, which is absolutely huge. I'm using Wikipedia:AutoWikiBrowser to recategorize the houses into their own subcategory, so that'll organize them somewhat better. Eventually, I'm hoping to set up the infobox generator to check the historic function of the property, so if the function is listed as "Single Dwelling" (code "01A"), it'll automatically put the property into the houses category.

Speaking of the infobox generator, I finally had time to implement two of the changes you suggested. I fixed the bug where seconds of latitude were being listed as 60, and I added the " | coord_parameters = region:US_type:landmark" parameter. I haven't done the last-name-first suggestion yet. I was hoping to find a way to automatically try to reverse the name to try looking for the last name first, but I haven't fully figured this out yet. --Elkman ^(Elkspeak) 13:48, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the tool changes. As for the sorting, it seems to me that if the Historic District subcat is sorted with D (or H?) and Houses with H, they're lost to most users -- that you should be able to walk up or down the tree on the first page. I'm going to make that change for the three cats (Houses, Railway, HD) in Massachusetts and I'll leave stubs alone.. . . . Jim . . . . Jameslwoodward (talk • contribs) 14:05, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

I added the "categorytree" format, so that all of the subcats will now display on every page of the category. --Orlady (talk) 03:04, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

Another question. What's a house?

• Single family -- no problem.
• Built as a single family, but now a multi-family, I'd still call a house, as it's often hard to tell.
• Typical Massachusetts urban 3 decker??
• Apartment building e.g. Dorothy Q Apartments, probably not.

When in doubt, which way do we err? Does this need a line or two on the category page? . . . . Jim . . . . Jameslwoodward (talk • contribs) 23:18, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

That's an interesting question. For new properties, I'm keying off the subfunction (listed on the left side in the infobox generator). If something is listed as being a "single dwelling", then I give it the house category. If it's listed as a multiple dwelling, then I'm not putting it into the house category. That leads to variable results, though. John M. Armstrong House in St. Paul, Minnesota is listed as being a multiple dwelling, because it was built as a duplex and was intended as rental property, but the name clearly calls it a house. On the other hand, F. Scott Fitzgerald House is one unit of a rowhouse, but it's listed as a single dwelling in the National Register database. I think both of these can safely be listed as houses. I'm not sure if that exactly clarifies the difference between a house and an apartment (or condominium, or something else). Generally, I would think it's safe to call any single dwelling a house, unless it's some unusual building type (like an igloo, for example). Duplexes, rowhouses, townhouses, and the like could also be considered as houses.

Looking at List of house types, it distinguishes single-family detached homes, semi-detached dwellings, and attached dwellings (multi-family residential). I'd suggest that anything listed under attached dwellings doesn't count as a "house", except that it would exclude rowhouses (terraced houses, etc.) Maybe rowhouses or townhouses could count as individual houses if they can be bought and sold as individual houses on the real estate market. --Elkman ^(Elkspeak) 04:13, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

Yes, I think you have the essence. F. Scott Fitzgerald House, the one unit, is a "house", but the Downer Rowhouses (Adams Street) are not, since the listing covers all the units. A building that an ordinary person would call a "house" is one for our purposes, even if it has two or three separate apartments. The Massachusetts triple decker is not. . . . . Jim . . . . Jameslwoodward (talk • contribs) 13:54, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

Yes

Hmmm, he hadn't re-created new articles at that point, just made the dumb copyvio edit. I indefblocked. Thanks for the heads-up. Wknight94 ^talk 22:26, 30 October 2009 (UTC)