User talk:Ealdgyth/Archive 19

This is an archive of past discussions with User:Ealdgyth. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Archive 15

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Archive 17

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TFA

Hi Ealdgyth - Hope the trip is going well! You may already know this, but Thoroughbred is scheduled to be the TFA for tomorrow (the 10th). Just FYI, if you're offline then patrolling will have to fall to someone else. I'm sure we're going to get the usual crowd agitating for lowercase "t"s and all that... Dana boomer (talk) 17:11, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

Osbert de Bayeux

You know the drill. :) Canadian Paul 05:55, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

Joe Daniels (horse)

See above! Canadian Paul 04:58, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

The carousel

A few initial points, more to follow.

I don't think that the lead works at all, and it starts off with one of my pet hates: " The carousel ... is a carousel ..." What about moving some bits around, for instance starting off with "Broad Ripple Park Carousel ... was installed in 1917 near the White River in Indianapolis ...".

Is it "The Children's Museum as the caption in the lead image says or "the Children's Museum", as the Acquisition section says?

"The mechanism powering the ride is a 40-foot (12-meter) diameter Mangels-Illions manufactured carousel". The mechanism is a carousel?

Malleus Fatuorum 04:04, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

The lead sounds fine (You know I suck at lead writing) and I believe it's "The Children's..". I'll think on that last one.. Ealdgyth - Talk 14:31, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

OK, I've rejigged the lead, hope you approve. I think we'll need to expand it just a tad, but we can do that at the end.

Acquisition by the museum

"While the plans were underway to secure funding for the restoration of the carousel ...". Surely it wasn't the plans that were underway?

Well, actually, we do say "plans underway" in American English, but other formulations are possible also... Ealdgyth - Talk 20:39, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

I don't understand how plans can be underway, but if you think that's OK then it's OK. Malleus Fatuorum 01:36, 25 February 2011 (UTC)

Background

I'm really uncomfortable about this section. It tells me a lot about the park, but nothing about the carousel.

Acquisition by the museum

"In 1965 two of the horses from the carousel were given to the Children's Museum of Indianapolis,[1] which was located in a building at 30th and Meridian Streets. This effort was spear-headed by Mildred Compton ...". What is "this effort"?

Because I'm wordy when I write (grins). Rewording is fine there. Ealdgyth - Talk 23:09, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

Could we change "effort" to something like "acquisition"? Malleus Fatuorum 23:13, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

we certainly could, or we could do something like "Mildred Compton spear-headed the effort/acquisition..." and get rid of the passive entirely. Ealdgyth - Talk 23:14, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

"Mildred Compton, the museum director, had seen the carousel in Broad Ripple Park before 1952, and hoped to secure all the surviving animals, but the park district was initially unwilling to part with more than two. Another five or six animals were used in the annual Christmas displays at Monument Circle. During the first half of 1966 the two horses were refinished by a museum volunteer." That middle sentence just doesn't seem to fit, but I'm not sure where would be the best place to put it.

Carousel composition

"The organ, a 1919 Wurlitzer carousel organa model146B ...". That doesn't look right; the pdf cited seems to call it a Model 146B? (with a space between "Model" and "146B")

I think I took care of the last two bits remainiing ... see anything else? If not, i'll probably nom when I hit Minneapolis (probably Thursday or Friday). Ealdgyth - Talk 15:30, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

I'll take a last look through this evening and let you know. Malleus Fatuorum 16:15, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

I think it looks pretty good now, but the lead is still too short. If you like, I could try to take care of that in the next day or so. Malleus Fatuorum 22:15, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

That'd be great - I pretty much suck at writing leads, as you've probably noticed. (grins). Beautiful day here... bright, sunny, just right at freezing, with a fresh couple of inches of snowfall to make everything all pretty. Taking off tomorrow to drive across Wyoming, Montana, North Dakota and Minnesota to Minneapolis. It'll be two days of driving for us, should be gorgeous... if a bit chilly. Bismarck's high is going to be 10 degrees F tomorrow... Ealdgyth - Talk 22:20, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

Brrrr! I think the lead's about right now, give or take. I'd be a bit worried though about the three red links for FAC, but your choice. Malleus Fatuorum 01:46, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

Good luck with the FAC. I think that topics like this one are great vehicles for demonstrating what wikipedia does well. Sure, we need the "big topics" like gravity, but finding comprehensive and reliable info on "little topics" can be rather difficult. And the museum's collaboration makes it just about perfect. I noticed that you've steered William de Braose, 2nd Baron Braose through GAN as well while you've been galavanting about the country. Amazing! (For a woman anyway. ;-) ) Malleus Fatuorum 16:05, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

Malleus, you really DO want to get slapped or something, eh? :-D Montanabw^(talk) 18:34, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

Depends on who's doing the slapping ... I'd best say no more. Malleus Fatuorum 20:02, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

I could go SOOO many places with that but I'll leave it alone. Thanks for the copyedits on the carousel, I think we've addressed most of the issues (I'm still confused by the hyphen being requested on the 60 acres thing but hopefully will get a reply on that. Hyphen's confuse me.) Ealdgyth - Talk 20:07, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

I would be mortified if any editor, male or female, felt that I treated them disrespectfully based solely on their gender. Sure, I sometimes make jokes, as I did above, but that ought to be the oil that keeps this project working. Malleus Fatuorum 20:13, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

LOL.. I saw your edit summary and I thought to myself "He's mortified I thought he wanted to be slapped"... you disappoint me there... how's Sandy going to find dirty meanings if we keep the discussion clean??? Ealdgyth - Talk 20:18, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

I sometimes take the piss, but it's got nothing to do with whether or not I think you have a Y chromosome. Many of my best friends seem to manage quite well without one. Malleus Fatuorum 20:35, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

I never remember - men have the Y and the women don't? (grins) Ealdgyth - Talk 20:36, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

That's right. The Y chromosome is interesting and rather tiny, but that's a discussion for another place. We can only be grateful that SandyG's absence has spared us from any suggestion that tiny chromosomes lead to tiny ... err... those things that gentlemen stick into ladies. Malleus Fatuorum 20:50, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

Never be too sure about that y-chromosome, recently a champion harness racing mare was found to have a y-chromosome! I'll pass comment on the rest, but not that I should have added "upside the head" to my comment about slapping! Or perhaps the UK equivalent, something about boxing and ears... LOL! Montanabw^(talk) 05:52, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

We use the term "slapper" here to refer to a female of uncertain morals, but back to the science. I believe it's not all that uncommon for females to have a Y chromosome along with their two X chromosomes, and still appear perfectly normal. There's a fascinating idea though that the two X chromosomes women have "fight" against each other, as only one can express itself. I've seen it argued that that explains the occasional unpredictability of the female, but I might just be making that up. :-) Malleus Fatuorum 01:54, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

OK, Malleus, you have got to be the first person with your level of skill and acumen try to claim that a person can have THREE alleles (XXY? WTF???)! But never mind, I think you're just trying to bait me! Thanks for the heads up on UK slang. Always good to know... I believe any number of folks from the UK have gotten themselves in trouble over here making inquiries as to the availability of a cigarette, not noting that your slang means something entirely different over here...! As Twain said, the Brits and the Yanks are a people separated by a common language... Montanabw^(talk) 05:03, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

No baiting. Here's one condition in which an apparent female has a Y chromosome, but when I mentioned XXY I was actually thinking of Klinefelter's syndrome, which apparently only affects males, so I wasn't entirely accurate. But as you can see, it's fairly common. Malleus Fatuorum 05:45, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

PS. I think you might mean "fag" rather than "cigarette". Malleus Fatuorum 05:53, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

Precisely. Here, said term can be viewed as having seriously derogatory connotations toward the individuals to whom it is directed. Or at least lead to embarassing misunderstandings. As for the y-chromosome thing, yes, I too have heard of it occurring in humans as well as animals, I will say that the XXY thing is new to me, though. Interesting; odd how some things that appear to be a spontaneous mutation are nonetheless relatively common. Hmmm Montanabw^(talk) 21:16, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

The Doody family Ning-ning (talk) 02:08, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

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New Article in Gestation

Montana suggested giving you a heads-up to work on a new article. History of the Horse in Britain Sandbox - please come and play in the sandbox. We're looking for anything and everything from pre-ice-age to present day; warfare, industry, transport, agriculture, you name it. :o) ThatPeskyCommoner (talk) 13:03, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

When you have finished playing catch-up, we'd love you to come play. Montana just reminded me again about ~~dragging you kicking and screaming~~ inviting you into the sandbox :o) ThatPeskyCommoner (talk) 10:27, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

Fairfax Harrison

Sorry that it's a day late! Canadian Paul 20:58, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

AMX FAC

We have renominated The Autobiography of Malcolm X for FAC. Your input would be appreciated. — GabeMc (talk) 01:46, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

Wilfrid

I'm sorry that I made such a botched job of inserting a wikilink for Bede into the lead of the Wilfrid article. Aa77zz (talk) 16:51, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

No worries at all, I'm glad you caught that he wasn't wikilinked. It's a pretty ... dense and long article. And I'm allowed to make fun of it as I wrote most of it! Thanks! Ealdgyth - Talk 16:54, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

On external links section

Hi. Thanks for the heads up. The edit you mentioned (removed only whitespace) happened because someone fixed the problem in the meantime between the list was created and the bot ran.

On the external links section you can read Wikipedia:External_links#External_links_section. It reads that the section should be names "External links" even if there is only one link. -- Magioladitis (talk) 19:29, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

Except I get requests at FAC to make sure it's "external link" when there is only one link... but whatever. Certainly not going to edit war over that... Ealdgyth - Talk 19:54, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

Happy Appies?

Now that you are back, shall we take Appaloosa to FA? I'll also ask Dana her thoughts. Montanabw^(talk) 18:43, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

Replying here, so that we can keep everything in one spot. Once Ealdgyth has a chance to look it over and it has a final copyedit, I think it should be ready for a run at FAC. I've not been as active the past week or so (it's SPRING!!! Maple syrup, baby goats and starting seeds!!!), but I'll make sure I'm around to help with answering queries. Dana boomer (talk) 23:53, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

Let me get another support for the carousel first ... and I'll try to get a look at it early next week (still catching up here from the trip...) Ealdgyth - Talk 23:55, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

OK. Hey Dana, in the meantime, can you email me about potting soil, speaking of seedlings? Last year all our broccoli starts died, I need advice! I can grow stuff great in the permanent beds (the lettuce survived that 25 below bout and actually germinated!), but doing starts to transplant out to the garden later isn't working so well. (We DID succeed with tomatoes, but nothing else) Montanabw^(talk) 03:05, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

Hey, Dana has goats! (Yes, I am butting in .....groan .....). I used to breed goats - love them :o) Can't wait for facilities to have them again. ThatPeskyCommoner (talk) 10:26, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

Sometimes people get my goat, and I don't even have goats... Montanabw^(talk) 20:36, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

Looks like I'll have that second support reasonably soon, so started in on a fine-toothed comb with the Appy article. Ealdgyth - Talk 21:54, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

Wighard

Just notice that I've made a few changes to the GA box review - I had written them down before but I forgot to add them to the box initially - they're quite minor, but check them out anyways. Thanks. Jay _{Σεβαστός}^discuss 19:35, 27 March 2011 (UTC)

I must say I'm a bit frightened that Wiki's article is 600+ words and ODNB's is only 117... maybe that means I'm too wordy? Thanks for the review... Ealdgyth - Talk 19:43, 27 March 2011 (UTC)

No way! Don't worry - your article just has many more, reliable points of view presented, and it does give it balance! I've suggested a lead on the talkpage, take a look. Jay _{Σεβαστός}^discuss 19:52, 27 March 2011 (UTC)

I've updated the article to GA status. Well done - make sure to add it to your prolific list! Jay _{Σεβαστός}^discuss 20:52, 27 March 2011 (UTC)

Another carousel

Hi, Ealdgyth. I saw where you have been instrumental in bringing Broad Ripple Park Carousel up to what is soon to be FA status. I don't know if carousels are a hobby of yours or anything, but a similar carousel–also made by Dentzel and also a National Historic Landmark–is the Highland Park Dentzel Carousel and Shelter Building in Meridian, Mississippi. I've written basically everything that's in the article now, though I haven't touched it in years. If you're looking for another project, maybe you could take a look at that article? If there is something needed photograph-wise, I can take as many as you'd like. I'm originally from Meridian but now live about 90 miles (140 km) south in Hattiesburg, so a short drive to snap a few pictures shouldn't be to bothersome. If you don't want to work on it, that's fine.. just a friendly suggestion.--Dudemanfellabra (talk) 02:05, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

I got asked to do the article by the Children's Museum, I'm not really a carousel person. Weirdly enough though, my mother's father's family is from Meridian and a good number of them still live around there and Hattiesburg. I think I'm going back to my normal bishops and horses after this, but I'm happy to help if you wanna work more on that one. Ealdgyth - Talk 02:44, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

Ah, well that's fine. I'd love to see the article developed, but I'm busy with some other things at the moment, so I'm unable to really contribute anything other than mundane maintenance and the like. Oh well. Small world, huh?--Dudemanfellabra (talk) 13:27, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

Shakespeare authorship question FAC

Thanks for your very thoughtful review at WP:Featured article candidates/Shakespeare authorship question/archive1 (which starts "Leaning support, but not quite there yet"). As you know, many editors worked on this at the article talk page, and you asked to be notified when done. I have updated the FAC with all the points addressed so far (a lot!). I have listed the unanswered issues here, and hope to make further progress with them soon. Would you please try to check your review and perhaps indicate whether you find the responses so far to have satisfactorily addressed your concerns. Thanks (no need for any reply—am hoping for a response on the FAC page). Johnuniq (talk) 12:39, 27 March 2011 (UTC)

i will try to find time to read through the whole thing again tonight or tomorrow. Ealdgyth - Talk 13:57, 27 March 2011 (UTC)

I believe all your points have now been addressed, hopefully mostly to your satisfaction. If you have the time it would be helpful if you could take a look and strike what is sufficient and provide any guidance you might have on any remaining issues. And thanks again for taking the time for this review! --Xover (talk) 22:50, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

I struck some, and hope to get back to it tomorrow. RL has whomped me in the butt. I let Sandy know this a day or so ago. I'm going to drop a note on her page letting her know that if my comments are the only thing holding her back that she can go ahead and promote, nothing that's left is enough to make me oppose. I'm not yet certain I'd support, but it's not bad enough to oppose. Ealdgyth - Talk 23:05, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

Thank you. And sorry to hear that pesky RL has been getting uppity again; it really should learn its place. Then again I have the same problem with my RL: keeps intruding when I'm busy on the `pedia, with not so much as a by-your-leave or an apology after. --Xover (talk) 23:17, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

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Ensuring others see FAC talk page comments

I agree with the note that you left on Sandy's talk page about discussions on FAC talk pages being less visible. Might I suggest that if either the nominator or the reviewer feels a discussion should be more visible, that they leave a note on the main FAC page pointing others to the talk page discussion? I am going to do that now. On the other matters, I apologise if I have pushed a bit too hard here and discouraged you. That wasn't my intention at all. I just wanted to be sure the sources and the writing stand up to scrutiny. I was discouraged too when I found that the information I had asked about was in the sources after all (albeit a different source to the one you used to cite that statement about the older Dentzels). Hopefully things will look better once that is all worked out, and once others have been directed to the discussion. I'll leave a note telling Sandy about the suggestion I made here, to see if she thinks that is a good way to keep things more visible. Carcharoth (talk) 03:31, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

I need help

This is, perhaps, too much to ask. I need someone who knows what it is like to build an article from sources instead of from what an editor thinks should be included in an article.

It's a very long article. The discussion itself is very long. It's been to ANI and now at another noticeboard, but predictably, nothing is getting resolved. If you have the time and think maybe you might be able to lend a hand, let me know. If not, I won't waste your or my time trying to sum up what the issues are. Thanks. --Moni3 (talk) 21:23, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

I can try. And if I can't help, maybe a talk page stalker can...Ealdgyth - Talk 21:37, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

Ok. The article is Lesbian, the longest article I've written with clear potential for all kinds of disagreements. For the most part, they have not materialized. However, a sentence in the lead has been protested several times. I've rewritten it for clarity at least three times. It currently has a ^{[dubious – discuss]} tag, and the discussion has been going on for weeks. I just keep getting more and more confused about what people are protesting in it. I had to report a user to ANI for being uncool, and I was just reported at the OR noticeboard.

On the talk page, there is a discussion heading titled Men have historically shaped, referencing the sentence in question. OhSqueezy (talk · contribs)'s questions back in January resulted in the third rewrite. On March 17, when Elephanthunter (talk · contribs) placed a NPOV template on the article, was when the discussion picked up speed. Elephanthunter was blocked for edit warring and has for the most part dropped out of the discussion. But the sentence with the dubious tag and now the one following it still remain problematic.

That's all I'm going to say here. I don't want to prejudice your opinion. Whatever you can do I appreciate. Thanks. --Moni3 (talk) 21:49, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

Honestly? I can't figure out what the people protesting the sentence are protesting. From my generalized readings I'd say that the sentence as written is generally supported in most cases from historians. I'm not a "student" of gender studies (I'm a very old fashioned type of historian, much more interested in biography and political events than in sociological studies but I do read rather widely) but most general studies I've read would agree with that statement when they touch on lesbianism. I'll go dig a bit in my stuff, I've got a bit still hanging around the place from working on Epikleros, and of course I've got a cross-section of medievalist stuff. I could see making it a bit more clear that it's a "generalization" and that there may be exceptions but most of my studies would bear out the generalization. I'm not sure how much help I could be though, since I can't seem to grasp the "opponents" arguments here. Ealdgyth - Talk 22:01, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

Well, for sure don't agree with me because I asked you to chime in. I wouldn't have asked for your assistance if I thought you'd do that, though.

I can't figure out if the users don't understand it's not my opinion in the article, that they don't really understand how articles are sources-driven as opposed to editor-driven, or if we're yammering on in English and no one is understanding anything. I also agree that if the phrase "in general" was added, I wouldn't have a problem with that, but it seems most (or two?) of them want the sentence removed entirely. I cannot get them to give me any sufficient grounds to do this, though, and it's pretty clear to me that multiple sources support these sentences. If you read through their points, maybe you can see something I can't. Or maybe things are very clear to me but not so much to an observer. If you can make your way through the discussion and still can't see their point, would you consider offering suggestions on the talk page? --Moni3 (talk) 22:11, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

Honestly? I'll see how I feel tomorrow. Weather has been yo-yoing here all day and my head is pounding. I've also still got the last bits of this project to figure out and nail down. Let's see if someone else on this page can figure out what they are talking about, (and hopefully I can get the carousel finished off too) and we'll see how it goes. I'd rather argue from sources myself, and not having access to your sources makes me hesitant to wade in too deeply. Have been checking my shelves and haven't turned anything up yet (but only checked 4 books so far...). This boils down to ... if you were expecting speed, you're not getting it, as I'm in slow-slug mode today... Ealdgyth - Talk 22:16, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

Seriously, whatever you can do. One of the reasons it's been dragging on so long is that none of the participants seem to have time enough to spend going back and forth. I have only about two hours a day I can spend catching up on stuff around here, and now most of my time is taken up by this. In an hour or so, I'm going to be away and won't be able to respond until tomorrow.

While I fully understand how you would want to access these sources to see what they say, this is not the avenue other users are considering, despite my telling them over and over to go read what is cited. I'm like Crazy Larry at Crazy Larry's Discount Furniture Superstore, screaming at people to come in and see all the bargains to see why everybody calls me Crazy Larry. Except instead of bargains, I keep yelling at everyone to read the sources, this is how an article is built, it's not my opinion, and I have no furniture for sale. The more it's just me saying these things, the more I seem like Crazy Larry. --Moni3 (talk) 22:41, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

(outdent) I totally understand where you're coming from with the sources. I think some of it is a culture shift here at Wikipedia. A lot of the "older" editors who first started editing in 2005 or so, seem to be "write the article and then we'll find the sources" and they often have an issue with the concept that you write what the sources tell you. This is a reason I find writing many of the horse articles so difficult - I KNOW things, from experience working with horses, and it's really hard to find sources to back that up. So I just don't edit them much, except for the breed ones. I suspect that this talk page is having some of this conflict - folks think they KNOW something and they are approaching the subject from that approach, and don't understand your approach. It's a problem... Ealdgyth - Talk 22:48, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

You touch on an important issue I think. As a general rule I actively avoid working on topics I have professional experience of, because as you say, I know that some stuff is true even if not everyone else does, and it's too frustrating. Malleus Fatuorum 22:58, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

Yes, I've seen this shift and it does cause a few misunderstandings. What I find quite ironic is that I could have, perhaps, written the Lesbian article as you describe writing horse articles. Just composed it from my own experience, being around and stuff. It would have been a very, very different article if I had done that, though. --Moni3 (talk) 23:00, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

Moni, if Ealdgyth is too busy to help, maybe check with User:Lar (who is also an admin, should things get really out of hand). Tell him Montanabw sent you! He's a good egg, has a way of cutting to the chase and also just survived the huge wiki-war over the whole climate change controversy, thus would have a good perspective as to what is an actual content dispute versus what is outside political ideology disguised as a content dispute. Unfortunately, I also have no time to step over to your page, either. But chin up, this stuff eventually passes, though occasionally not without a few tears at times and lot of new gray hairs popping up on one's head. Ealdgyth is right about the difficulties with writing and sourcing what you know. I'm too much of a glutton for punishment to avoid doing so, and also am one of the only editors in my little circle who bridge the old-versus-new emphasis on sourcing at wikipedia (was my 5th "wikiversary" last Thursday, in fact!). All I really can say is pace yourself so you don't get fried, don't get drawn into other people's personal issues, and don't let them get you down. But also remember: I never take my own advice, and in most of my wiki-spats, all three things happen to me on at least a biannual basis (but I'm still here) ! (LOL) Montanabw^(talk) 03:42, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

I appreciate the chin-up, Montana. I am rather beyond fried with Wikipedia, however. If the current culture is maintained so that article writers should be the ones responsible for updating and fixing the perceived shortcomings of articles, I'm not likely to find any more bliss. That forces me to own the article, which I don't want to do. I rather like a collaborative atmosphere, but such an atmosphere requires someone else to read what I have, or find other quality sources. When I tell other editors to do this, I expect most of them think I'm a nutjob to suggest it. --Moni3 (talk) 22:10, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

I get accused of "ownership" on a fairly regular basis, and it's beyond annoying when all I'm doing is basically saying, "it ain't perfect, but you just screwed it up worse!" You are right that wikipedia works best when a group of people form a collaborative group (we then get accused of being a "cabal" but I can live with that!) I don't object seeing an article actually get better, but I do get tired of people with an axe to grind accusing me of motives that I don't have. I do like to remind people that the burden is on the person who adds new material to defend it, and it's not the people who write the existing material who have to justify keeping it. Hang in there, we need people like you around! And, judging by my real life work, wikipedia is a microcosm of a lot of the nonsense that's everywhere. Just that it's a permanent record here, unmoderated by the personal relationships that sometimes temper such behavior in RL. Montanabw^(talk) 18:02, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

Anyone who tries to stop an article they've spent some time on turning into the typical wikipedia grey goo will very likely have been accused of ownership at one time or another. In fact I even learned a new word in that context when I was accused of being a member of the "Manchester claque". Just the way it is here. Malleus Fatuorum 18:07, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

Illions

One final note, if you ever go back to some of the other carousel articles or amusement parks in general (and you should, I found myself fascinated by some of the history), is what we have on Illions (he of Mangels-Illions fame). You may already know much of this, but I scrounged around Wikipedia and found (mostly unsourced, of course): Columbus Zoo and Aquarium#Mangels-Illions Carousel; Olentangy Park (once the largest in the US!):

"In 1914 a magnificent Mangels-Illions carousel was purchased for the Park. With 52 horses and 2 chariots hand carved by the Lithuanian master carousel carver Marcus C. Illions and Sons, this "Grand Carousel" was one of only a few manufactured by the William E. Mangels Company as a Mangels-Illions carousel. (The restored carousel is now in operation at the Columbus Zoo and Aquarium)"

So it might be possible that the original Mangels-Illions carousels did include these 'chariots'. Illions is also mentioned in Carousel, where his full name is given as 'Marcus Charles Illions'. Also mentioned in Playland (New York), Six Flags New England, Geauga Lake's Wildwater Kingdom, and Charles I. D. Looff. Was also wondering if the Wurlitzer now at the museum's carousel should be added to List of Wurlitzer Band Organs? Also found this ('Gilded Lions And Jeweled Horses', by Frances McQueeney-Jones Mascolo) which is an interesting read (worth looking at if nothing else). Anyway, enough of all that! Carcharoth (talk) 00:32, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

I've actually got to get to Appaloosa, which is the next Equine project collaboration to head towards FAC, and then I've got a very obscure but strange episode in English ecclesiastical history to document - Hygberht. After that, I have not the slightest clue where I'm going.. it's going to be a busy summer for me, so I may not get anything else through FAC until fall, hard to know. Carousels aren't really on my radar for a while, mainly because I keep wanting to start collecting the animals, and that would be very very very bad. Ealdgyth - Talk 00:36, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

You seriously gotta get up here, two very nice carousels in MT! Montanabw^(talk) 18:55, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

Gods, no. No more carousels for a while. It was very interesting and fun, but if I write any more on them I'll start collecting the animals ... google "Dentzel horse sale" sometime, it's scary! They cost more than my REAL horses did! Ealdgyth - Talk 18:57, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, but you save money on the back end, literally; no stall-cleaning, you can keep them inside, and they don't eat! :-D Montanabw^(talk) 18:25, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

Latest

Hello!
I was writing this up elsewhere and had a panic attack thinking that maybe these links hadn't been passed onto you - you who would very much appreciate them! Things have been crazy catching up with the museums & grad school but I'm finally starting to get some press out about the fun at TCM. So the latest news is here; my blog post for the museum. We're also hoping to get the WMF coverage soon, and I have an upcoming spot on the Center for the Future of Museums blog. (This is very exciting!)
In the TCM blog post I mention the new Wikipedia Widget, which I'm really thrilled about! The carousel was the impetus for that. I also blog about it here, and here it is in use. We're now working on a QR code to be added to the line/exhibit so that visitors can read the Wikipedia article while waiting to ride. We scoped out spots just this week and will be adding it soon. Hooray!
Did I tell you that I'm working on this rather intense project to revamp the Indianapolis Museum of Art Wikipedia article. I have a team of five working on it with me and this whole process of review that will be starting. We'll be using it as a case study for museums' updating articles without violating conflict of interest. Whew. It just never ends. Draft here. Thanks again for all you do! HstryQT (talk) 23:29, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

Wouldn't basic social hygiene suggest that all articles available in that way were at least semi-protected? Malleus Fatuorum 04:26, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

Stigand

Hi! I and some other editors have noticed some issues, while translating this article into Polish (good job, BTW). Look at this sentence: "Rumours recorded a century later included some that Emma and Stigand were having an affair, and the alleged affair was supposedly the cause of their fall from power", with the reference to Stafford. In Stafford you can read that the rumours were about Emma's affair with bishop of Winchester. Stigand was appointed to this seat many years later. So it wasn't he.

Unfortunately we don't have access to most of the sources you used in this article. We have preview of some pages through google books. But check this small fragment from the page 20. It suggest that people were rather talking about former bishop: Aelfwine. Can you please verify this? Bluszczokrzew (talk) 00:52, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

Yikes, you are correct. This is what happens when the sources don't state names, but rather just titles... removed. Thanks for catching that! Ealdgyth - Talk 01:00, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

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Since nobody seems to have bothered to notify you…

Wikipedia:Today's featured article/requests#April 24 – iridescent 16:09, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

(groans) Ealdgyth - Talk 16:10, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

Maggie Thatcher

The replies I'm making on the talk page aren't to you, but for the benefit of those other editors interested enough to chip in. Your review really was very illuminating, and I can't thank you enough for it. I'll be along to look at your latest bad boy bishop imminently. Expect no mercy! :-) Malleus Fatuorum 23:37, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

No worries at all, it was my pleasure. Gotta have some use for us Yank-editors.... I think we're close on Appaloosa also, so if you'd rather a horse breed than a bishop... Ealdgyth - Talk 00:05, 16 April 2011 (UTC)

I was a bit scared about tackling a subject as potentially controversial as Thatcher, but we'll see how it goes. Are you prepping Appaloosa for FAC? Malleus Fatuorum 00:26, 16 April 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, the Equine project is (i.e. Dana, Montana, and I...) I left a list like the one on Maggie's page on the talk page the other week, and am just now heading over to see what's still needing done. Ealdgyth - Talk 00:29, 16 April 2011 (UTC)

Well, as I almost certainly know much less about horses than you do about British politics, then it's only fair that I return the favour. Malleus Fatuorum

Many thanks for your insightful review. I intend to respond over the weekend and get some work done on the article on Sunday or Monday. "Economics" is definitely a singular noun in all dialects of English, but I agree that that sentence was clumsy and needed rewording. One thing I was aware of when we were working on it in January was how choppy the prose was; this is partly because as I understand it, some parts survived from the rather hagiographic article we had in 2010, some were written by Malleus, some by me, and some by GeometryGuy. There may have been others. The style needs to flow better throughout the article, perhaps. Anyway, thank you, and I look forward to working with you to improve the article further. --John (talk) 02:34, 16 April 2011 (UTC)

It was (and is) definitely a good article, don't mistake the pickyness of my review to mean it's not in pretty decent shape. However, as Malleus will attest, there is a significant jump in just polish and everything needed before you attempt FAC. It's well worth it, for an important article, which Maggie is. I enjoyed reading it, and hope that ya'll will still be happy to have me help after you finish that long list of stuff.... Ealdgyth - Talk 02:37, 16 April 2011 (UTC)

No brownie points available from feminists for improving an article on a conservative (small c).--Wehwalt (talk) 14:15, 16 April 2011 (UTC)

All I want to know is this: I got somewhat beaten around the head for wife selling, so would Maggie give me some brownie points with the feminists? Malleus Fatuorum 07:22, 16 April 2011 (UTC)

Doubtful. In my experience, the only way you'd win brownie points with the feminists is either to decide you're gay or go through a sex change. I don't have a high regard for most "feminists" as opposed to "suffragettes", who I greatly admire. Ealdgyth - Talk 14:08, 16 April 2011 (UTC)

Hooray!!

Thanks so much for letting me know about the carousel - I'm so so excited! I am going to hold off letting staff know until it has its star, as that's what they associate with it and they might be confused after all that I've taught them about what it means to be "FA". ("Where's its star??" :). Do you know how long that might take, or who does it? I'm absolutely thrilled & once again, thank you so much for your time and efforts! HstryQT (talk) 01:47, 16 April 2011 (UTC)

A bot'll go through and add the star, probably in a couple of hours, although I'm not sure exactly when the bot is running any more. Now I have to decide what goes up next! Ealdgyth - Talk 01:49, 16 April 2011 (UTC)

Thanks! I noticed it yesterday morning. It's already all over the blogosphere and Twitter ;). Thanks for letting me know! HstryQT (talk) 12:04, 17 April 2011 (UTC)

Congratulations! JKBrooks85 (talk) 07:45, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

Bede

I was thinking about the article just the other day. I think we could get a long way by not trying to read hundreds of articles but just winnowing down to the ones that seem most relevant to the top-level article. For example, I was looking at one of the Jarrow Lectures, "Bede the Educator" -- there's probably no more than a sentence in our article that will depend on that, and perhaps not even that. I think there are subsidiary articles that could (and should) be written that will need the more specialist works, but the high-level article really just needs summaries, and we can rely on tertiary works for that. Or at least, I think we should complete a first draft to a GA level and try to get it complete, and only then start digging into the specialist stuff to see what we might be missing. What do you think? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 01:28, 17 April 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, I think that may be best. I've got Hygeberht and Appaloosa in the pipeline (plus a trip that won't take too much time) but we probably need to concentrate on what the ODNB uses mainly as its sources. It's just such a daunting topic... Ealdgyth - Talk 01:42, 17 April 2011 (UTC)

Some questions on Hygeberht

As ever, a few questions:

Background

"... establish overlordship over Kent". Can we do anything about that "over ... over". Seems a bit weird to say "overlordship over" anyway.

Archbishop

"It is unclear why these joint councils were held ...". Is it unclear why the councils were held, or unclear why they were held jointly?

Resignation and death

"Previous to this, however, Hygeberht had resigned his see." I'm not at all fond of "previous to this", and I'm not at all sure what "this" is. Offa's death?

"... his successor Aldwulf attended the council in 801". What council?

"By the time that Æthelhard held the Fifth Council of Clovesho, Hygeberht was no longer even named as a bishop ...". Do we have a year for that?

Malleus Fatuorum 20:41, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

See what you think on my fixes? Ealdgyth - Talk 20:51, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

Looks good to me, except that I'm still not certain I understand the point about the joint councils. If it's unclear why the councils were held jointly then I'd say so explicitly, as in "It is unclear why these councils were held jointly ...". On the other hand if it's unclear why the councils were held at all, then I'd drop the "joint", as it's adding an unnecessary ambiguity. Otherwise I think the old boy's about done. Malleus Fatuorum 21:19, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

It's the first, and I've tried to make it clearer... Ealdgyth - Talk 21:25, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

Looks all set for lift-off to me. Malleus Fatuorum 22:27, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

Thanks much! I'll put him up tomorrow evening after I return from the library (I'll be getting some articles on Maggie while I'm there... will email once I get home). Ealdgyth - Talk 22:35, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

I can walk to my local library, but I have the impression that you've got a little further to go. Maggie's a tough one; my confidence that we can get her into shape for FAC is ebbing away. Malleus Fatuorum 22:48, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

I have a "local" library, but it quite frankly sucks badly. Much more concerned with having the latest Dan Brown bestseller than having the books that are the actual history for the Templars/etc. So, yeah, I drive an hour each way to the nearest big uni. Even if Maggie doesn't make FA, you've still done a great deal to improve her, which is a good thing. The little do-dads are only additions to the actual good editing that goes on. Ealdgyth - Talk 22:55, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

I went to university just outside London, which is far too far away for an alumini membership of the library to be much good to me sadly. I'm fairly happy with Maggie as she is. As I said to User:John, we managed to halt her spiral into decline and at least get her back to GA. Malleus Fatuorum 23:27, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

Oh, I went to college in Texas, Houston actually. U of I just is real accomadating to locals and allows a state resident to apply for a resident card - which has much more restrictive borrowing privileges (I can only take out 25 books and only for periods of a month (with pretty much unlimited renewals) vs 100 for an undergrad and on site usage of their databases. I also don't have ILL privileges, which I'd have to get through my local library, but I quite honestly haven't bothered yet, since the last time I tried, they looked at me like I had two heads for wanting ILL... but because the U of I is funded by the state, they have to allow some sort of borrowing privileges for state residents. We have a university here in town, but they are private, so they are (one) much pickier about locals borrowing, and (two) much much smaller and only marginally better than the public library in town. (Their history section is only slightly outdated unlike the public library which is woefully outdated, for example...) To live near DC and be able to hit the Library of Congress would be my dream ... Ealdgyth - Talk 23:34, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

(trying a new template!) I lied, I'm going Friday to the library. Something came up and I need to stay home tomorrow... blech! Ealdgyth - Talk 00:04, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

Good, because on re-reading I noticed something else. In the Archbishop section it says that Hygeberht received his pallium from Pope Hadrian I, but later that "The king's envoys laid the blame for the problems encountered with the Lichfield archdiocese on Pope Adrian I's incompetence". Are Hadrian and Adrian the same pope? If not, in what way was Adrian incompetent? Malleus Fatuorum 01:06, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

Adrian and Hadrian are the same (Adrian's the English version of the Hadrian/Hadrianus latinate form), and I'll see if I have anything on his incompetence in my stuff (it may not be documented, as it may not be that the papa was incompetent, jsut that the envoys alleged he was...) but in the morning. My head is really doing a watermelon imitation right now and Mythbusters is on with a new episode. Ealdgyth - Talk 01:09, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

Then presumably his incompetence was in granting the archbishopric of Lichfield. It just seem odd to call him by two different names. Malleus Fatuorum 01:16, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

That's because the sources used called him different names - one probably used Hadrian (which I copied) and the other used Adrian (which I copied). I generally prefer Hadrian. And that reminds me... one other change I need to do... so I'll get them all to Hadrian Ealdgyth - Talk 01:20, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

The wikipedia article calls him Adrian, but Hadrian sounds better to me as well. Whatever, so long as we're consistent. Malleus Fatuorum 01:42, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

Fairfax Harrison

Hi Ealdgyth. Ref for FH's marriage and family is this; couldn't work out how to insert the ref, sorry. I suspect he may have attended the British Empire Exhibition of 1924/25 where he would have seen the LNER's "Flying Scotsman" in apple green, next to the GWR's "Pendennis Castle" in Brunswick green- "Both engines glistened in the highest finish which their respective works could achieve, the brass beading and copper chimney cap of the 'Castle' being matched by the fittings of the 'Pacific' which were made from an alloy...devised to look more like gold than normal brass" (O.S. Nock, The GWR Stars, Castles and Kings)- would be interesting to know if that was the case. Ning-ning (talk) 13:54, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

That source isn't reliable, though. It's a personal genealogy site, so would fail WP:RS. Luckily, the Yale Obit has what we need there. There is some speculation that he took the color scheme for the Southern Railway from the engines he saw in the UK, but nothing very concrete, unfortunately. Ealdgyth - Talk 14:00, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

Right, didn't think of that! If the color scheme thing is just speculation then it's probably incorrect- there's too much difference between the LNER scheme and the SR scheme. Ning-ning (talk) 14:19, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

TPSs...

I'm hunting for Conservation of Historic Wooden Structures which is a proceedings of a conference held in Florence in Feb 2005. Specifically, I"m interested in the "Investigation of the construction of a 19th Century Wooden Flume suspended on a cliff" article. This and this are further WorldCat entries. Ealdgyth - Talk 18:02, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

Further searching for

~~Sayers, Jane (2009). "A Once Proud Prelate: An Unidentified Episcopal Monument in Ely Cathedral". Journal of the British Archaeological Association. 162: 67–87.~~ Thanks Nikkimaria! Ealdgyth - Talk 00:27, 18 April 2011 (UTC)
Breeze, Andrew (2001). "The Anglo-Saxon Chronicle for 1053 and the Killing of Rhys ap Rhydderch". Transaction of the Radnorshire Society. 71: 168–169.

Ealdgyth - Talk 19:28, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

Looked around, will keep eyes open. Ning-ning (talk) 20:15, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

~~Oooohhh... this also Ealdgyth - Talk 01:49, 17 April 2011 (UTC)~~ Thanks also Nikkimaria! Ealdgyth - Talk 00:27, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

Maybe (if the gods of inter-library loan smile upon me), yes, no, yes. Send me an email? Nikkimaria (talk) 00:03, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

Okay, I've got a paper copy of the first one. Is there something in it in particular that you're looking for? Nikkimaria (talk) 22:49, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

I'm really hoping that it has enough to turn this Hanging Flume from a redlink to a bluelink... Ealdgyth - Talk 22:55, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

I think it does, although if this is the only source it won't be a very long article. I can scan the source for you after the long weekend, unless you'd prefer that I take a stab at writing the article...? Nikkimaria (talk) 03:11, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

Up to you, I'm fine with writing it, but if you want to, that's cool too. I took some pictures of its ruins when I was in Colorado.. thus the interest. It is on the NHR list, so it's at least notable. I do owe you some major favors though! I suspect if I dig on Google books through old mining reports and stuff, I'll find more. Possibly also Colorado historical mags...Ealdgyth - Talk 03:24, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

RS inquiry

Hi E, JLAN has found some interesting stuff on Appaloosas being imported to Europe to improve the Knabstrub breed. It's cool and would improve the international focus of the article. However, I don't know if the source is good enough for an FA. Can you pop over there and take a peek? Thanks! Montanabw^(talk) 18:47, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

Main page appearance

Hello! This is a note to let the main editors of this article know that it will be appearing as the main page featured article on April 24, 2011. You can view the TFA blurb at Wikipedia:Today's featured article/April 24, 2011. If you think it is necessary to change the main date, you can request it with the featured article director, Raul654 (talk · contribs). If the previous blurb needs tweaking, you might change it—following the instructions of the suggested formatting. If this article needs any attention or maintenance, it would be preferable if that could be done before its appearance on the Main Page so Wikipedia doesn't look bad. :D Thanks! Tbhotch* ^{۩ ۞} 03:40, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

Mellitus was the first Bishop of London, the third Archbishop of Canterbury, and a member of the Gregorian mission sent to England to convert the Anglo-Saxons. He arrived in 601 AD, and was consecrated as Bishop of London in 604. Pope Gregory I sent Mellitus a letter now known as the Epistola ad Mellitum, which suggested the conversion of the Anglo-Saxons be undertaken gradually and integrate pagan rituals and customs. Following the deaths of his patrons, King Sæberht of Essex and King Æthelberht of Kent, Mellitus was exiled from London and forced to take refuge in Gaul. Æthelberht's successor converted to Christianity the following year, and Mellitus returned to England. Unable to return to the pagan inhabitants of London, he was appointed Archbishop of Canterbury in 619. During his tenure, he was alleged to have miraculously saved the cathedral, and much of the town of Canterbury, from a fire. After his death in 624, Mellitus was revered as a saint. (more...)

Joys. (whimpers) And on Easter too. Lovely. Can my TPSs keep an eye on it? I'm actually going to be away for much of that day, or at least I hope to be. Ealdgyth - Talk 03:47, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

A New Discussion for Henry of Normandy

Here is Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Henry of Normandy. Although I have been convinced that such a prince never existed, now his article has been re-created, and there is someone supporting the existence of the prince.Heinrich ⅩⅦ von Bayern (talk) 03:02, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

I've replied there. Ealdgyth - Talk 14:09, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

User:CorenSearchBot/manual

I thought you might be interested to know that I run a backup copy of CorenSearchBot's code which does the exact same job at User:VWBot/manual, so hopefully one of the two bots will be up and running at any given time. VernoWhitney (talk) 14:32, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

The Colour Out of Space

I'm quite surprised that you're a Lovecraft fan as well! Anyhow, I've responded to your concerns on the talk page, so hopefully the only remaining issue is the image. Canadian Paul 01:49, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

Well, "fan" isn't quite the word for something that I can't read at night because it gives me nightmares. (Just thinking of Rats in the Walls is enough to make me unable to sleep at night for a couple of hours...). I'll look in on it tomorrow, it's late here (although, per above, I'll be getting to sleep at least an hour later than usual due to the rats...) but it was quite nice, so shouldn't be an issue at all. Ealdgyth - Talk 01:59, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

Addressed your two responses. I'm going through his entire unabridged works right now... it sort of creeps up into your subconscious after a while and your brain starts interpreting all of your weird dreams through his lens... Canadian Paul 01:46, 24 April 2011 (UTC)

I didn't dream of rats last night. Just weird horse dreams (one of our mares is trying to be lame, so my subconcious obviously thought I needed to have that mare go through much worse things in my dreams...). Passed now, thanks for writing it! Ealdgyth - Talk 01:50, 24 April 2011 (UTC)

LOL! Your horses worm their way into your subconscious too, eh? Montanabw^(talk) 17:07, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

Of course! This one was a new one, a hernia (how that connected to lameness... I do not know.) I think this broodmare may have just injured herself enough to fit herself into the category of "Broodmare sound". And don't think I don't know it was deliberate too... she's fully smart enough to figure out how to do that. Ealdgyth - Talk 17:09, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

Ouch! Watch the hernia thing; I have a friend who has a mare only pasture sound and unbreedable due to a hernia. Hope your girl comes out of everything OK. Horses, sigh. They do seem to have a death wish or something, sometimes. Montanabw^(talk) 17:37, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

It was in my dream that the horse got a hernia, not in real life. In RL, the mare is just ... gimpy. Was on stall rest all winter, and will NOT allow us to keep her in a stall now that spring has sprung. She walks fine, puts weight on it, etc, but if she runs, she limps a bit on one hind leg. She's 12, and I bought her as a broodmare (and she'd never be show quality anyway, can't put any pressure on her nose, so no curb chain for her!) so if she's a bit off, she's a bit off. Ealdgyth - Talk 17:42, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

Whew! Only a dream. Stifle stuff a possibility, and even though pasture sound, comfort worth something. Normally I'm not an advocate of the "woo-woo" stuff, but I've seen some good things happen with chiropractic and equine massage; my little horse with CA is perpetually messing herself up over one thing or the other and feels ever so much happier when her various friends with the healing hands show up (for a price). She is less anxious and crabby when nothing hurts (just like us, I guess). One time I traded for a thing called "quantum touch" therapy with a friend who does all that sort of stuff on people, & had a horse-crazed daughter who wanted to ride. I was surprised at how much better my CA mare did after it. I still don't get why it works, but the results were noticable. Not going to pay for it with me, but for the horses, I'm a sucker. Montanabw^(talk) 17:57, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

She's not noticably uncomfrotable except when she runs - which she does anyway, and the only sign of discomfort is the weird gait, she's still right at the head of the pack and not any pissier than her alpha mare status would warrant... If it keeps up (and the finances improve a hair, the economy sucks sucks sucks) I may find a chiropractor for her, but again, it's a case of .. she's not a show horse, she's not for sale, she's only slightly a riding horse (she gets pissy after about half an hour if you don't know what you're doing...) so... as long as she's comfy... Did I mention she's the one QH in a herd of arabs and part-arabs? She's also learned to flag up as much as the rest of the herd. Thankfully, she's not learned how to tear apart fencing, yet. Ealdgyth - Talk 18:13, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

Sometimes we all have that hitch in our getalong and it often if of little significance unless we wanted to resume our figure skating career or something! QH? Yep, stifle, I bet... ;-) Montanabw^(talk) 23:32, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

Yep, and 12 years old. 6 months of stall rest didn't cure it, not a chance of much else besides very expensive surgery. And well... if I tried to keep her in right now, she'd tear the barn down ... Ealdgyth - Talk 23:56, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

Know the feeling. My CA mare needs all the space she can get, even if every time she gallops I feel like I'm waiting for the train wreck. But she's happier this way than in the little pen I found her in when I got her. Montanabw^(talk) 15:34, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

BISE

If you want an example of BISE at work and why it should not be too difficult to list relevant editors, try this and this on just the one topic involving the exclamation mark on the end. I briefly hung around as I thought I might be able to become a sort of uninvolved mediator but as you can see - I just got pretty irritated pretty quickly. I am now helping keep the peace at the Balkans articles which is much more civilised. Fainites ^barleyscribs 15:54, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

Actually this one's even better - unless you'd prefer the one that hinged on whether there was an Isle of Mann cabbage but not a Channel Isles cabbage. Fainites ^barleyscribs 16:41, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

I've met BISE before, here, where I distinctly got the impression that there were some axes being ground, and that the actual person doing the freaking editing of the article (and the actual subject matter expert) wasn't being listened to. This is why I'm so nervous about the dang thing, it appears that normally rational people are really letting their biases shine through. Ealdgyth - Talk 16:47, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

Wow - that's even worse. I have come across the "unless it's in the Isle of Mann and the Channel Islands it's not the British Isles" quite a lot though. It was used as an argument for the small village of Westward Ho! not being described as the only place name with an exclamation mark in the British Isles because it was not also in the Channel Islands and the Isle of Mann. Fainites ^barleyscribs 17:03, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

Thing is, Lanfranc probably did intend to assert authority over the Isle of Man, at the very least. Probably also the outer hebrides, and Iona and all the rest of the peripheral islands, it was that sort of "generalized" claim, but without sources explicitly stating that, the whole argument is just one big push of a point of view. I really think Mick's got the right idea here, he's just not able to get traction... Ealdgyth - Talk 17:09, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

It quickly becomes TLDR and the idea of "this has two sides equally to blame so lets go and set up a project" has appeal to those who haven't seen the thing at work.Fainites ^barleyscribs 17:22, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

And Really, I AM busy

Just easily distracted. I sort of went beyond my usual realm and created an article, Russell and Sigurd Varian. Long story, but basically trying to keep the photos from being tossed. Silly reason, but I got into the topic and quite fascinated and, well, seven hours later... Anyway, I realize that it might even be close to GA. So could you be inspired to take a look-see and either edit further or offer talk page comments? I could also use ideas for a DYK hook. I'm going to let it cool for a bit, but then maybe try for some prizes, and I DO need feedback. You can probably figure out one reason why I got there, and if you ever needed evidence of my secret sci-fi techno-geek habit, well, that's the other reason... Montanabw^(talk) 01:19, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

When I get home. I've got to hit the road tomorrow for Wyoming (again, yes) to take out prints to a gallery in Cody. Two days out, three days there, two days home. What a lovely way to spend a week... Ealdgyth - Talk 01:22, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

You will need the "iron butt" award after that one! The things we do for money. Montanabw^(talk) 02:36, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

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Talk:Cuthmann of Steyning

I wouldn't ordinarily be inclined to think the n versus nn was a big deal, but not really comfortable with the argument and principle being advanced behind the suggestion. Thoughts? Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 15:09, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

I agree with you but unfortunately I'm on the road so totally bookless at the moment. What's the ODNB call him? (And Hygeberht made FA!) Ealdgyth - Talk 15:17, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

He's not in the ODNB, but the Oxford Dictionary of Saints has him as Cuthman. Malleus Fatuorum 15:21, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

Oxford Dictionary of Saints has Alphege ... for whatever that's worth. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 20:08, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

Handily, it's Ælfheah in the ODNB, which helps trump the other usage. I'll be home Wed night, so hopefully can chime in then Ealdgyth - Talk 20:45, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

Nothhelm

As usual for stuff you've written that I've seen at GAN, this has now been reviewed; I've also found a couple of sources which cover the Rome visit and the nature of Bede's dedicated work (the latter showing that the work wasn't simply dedicated - it was written in response to questions Nothhelm had sent to Bede). Want to drop me a line so I can email them over? Ironholds (talk) 13:27, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

It's going to be Monday or Tuesday before I can get to Nottie-boy - Mother's Day here in the States. Ealdgyth - Talk 13:32, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

Fair play - just give me a poke when you have. Ironholds (talk) 13:34, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

The Gibbs just repeats information that's already in the article - under "Early life" - "... whom he supplied with correspondence from the papal library following a trip to Rome." Same for the deGregoio - "Bede addressed his work In regum librum XXX quaestiones to Nothhelm, who had asked the thirty questions on the biblical book of Kings that Bede answered." Addressed isn't the same as "dedicated"... Ealdgyth - Talk 12:43, 9 May 2011 (UTC)

My bad, I misread the original article - right, since you've now finished all the minor quibbles, congrats! Another GA :). Ironholds (talk) 14:50, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

Thanks muchly. I'm sure you noticed that we're working on Richard Barre as next for FAC... Ealdgyth - Talk 15:14, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

GA Review of Richard Basset (royal justice)

I left a few dumb questions here. (You were cluttering up the queue at GAN ;-) )Malleus Fatuorum 15:05, 9 May 2011 (UTC)

That's me... the clutter queen. Thanks for the review. I'm just now off to the library to retrieve that pulp mag article on Barre ... (that sounds SOOOO wrong...) Ealdgyth - Talk 15:10, 9 May 2011 (UTC)

I'll be very interested to hear what you make of it. Malleus Fatuorum 15:29, 9 May 2011 (UTC)

Well, right here on page 41 I find a whopper - "The villagers would recognize many dialects and most European languages; they would know the sound of Latin and Greek from church services, and of Hebrew from the Jewish community in town." - well, no. Greek was basically unknown in England at the time and Hebrew would not have been spoken outside of services (if there was even a Jewish community in the town, it's questionable - since there weren't more than couple thousand at most in England at any one point during the Middle Ages.) Ealdgyth - Talk 19:34, 9 May 2011 (UTC)

I think he's off his rocker. He's got Barre on Geoffrey Ridel's staff in 1173 (Barre was actually on King Henry's at the time) and then on p. 51 we have "In 1187 he [Barre] was abroad on major embassies for Henry II, returned to East Anglia in 1190 and settled in Staffordshire." err.. no. Richard was Archdeacon of Ely, that's why he was in East Anglia. And Barre was pretty heavily involved in the administration of the Diocese of Ely, since Longchamp (remember him?) was off in exile ... I note he's NOT footnoting any of this "son William" and stuff. Did Lunan ever publish this book? Ealdgyth - Talk 19:57, 9 May 2011 (UTC)

I think he did, but I'll need to check. I only included Lunan in the green children as a bit of light relief, and to avoid someone else insisting on adding it later. Even i find the "matter transporter" accident to be improbable in the extreme. Malleus Fatuorum 20:40, 9 May 2011 (UTC)

Clark deals with the language issue rather more sensibly, commenting that Richard de Calne, as an educated man who quite possibly fought against the Flemish mercenaries, would very likely have recognised Flemish even if he himself couldn't speak it. Malleus Fatuorum 20:43, 9 May 2011 (UTC)

I think this is all worth only an explanatory footnote - I'll try to get it worked up tonight or tomorrow and then I think we're ready for FAC. Obscure historical personages for the win! Ealdgyth - Talk 22:28, 9 May 2011 (UTC)

I think we've pretty much got that niche sewn up, along with a few others like Deacon. There's a challenge in trying to spirit an article like William Cragh out of almost nothing. Malleus Fatuorum 23:08, 9 May 2011 (UTC)

There we go, footnote added. I'd be interested if he ever published that book... Ealdgyth - Talk 23:28, 9 May 2011 (UTC)

I think the note takes care of it nicely. BTW, I just saw [1]. Naughty Ealdgyth, although it's true that if you ever asked me to look at that article I would rewrite that sentence. :-) Malleus Fatuorum 17:15, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

He's on the 'eventual' list to get upgraded. I'm still not convinced I've found everything about him just yet. I should be out doing something productive today, but I am so sinusy I've done nothing but laze around the house today. Ealdgyth - Talk 17:17, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

Too much information. :-( Malleus Fatuorum

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Manor Farm, Ruislip

Thank you for your GA review. I have made the changes based on the suggestions you have made. How does it look now? Harrison49 (talk) 21:39, 13 May 2011 (UTC)

Marek Sobieski

Thank you for your GA review. I improved the article. It is now alright? Kmicic (talk) 15:35, 14 May 2011 (UTC)

I'm heading out for the afternoon, I will check on it this evening when I get home. Ealdgyth - Talk 15:36, 14 May 2011 (UTC)

Source question

Do you have an opinion on the reliability of http://www.yorkshirehistory.com/index.htm this source? Malleus Fatuorum 17:28, 14 May 2011 (UTC)

Looks like a self-published hobbiest site to me. Ealdgyth - Talk 23:02, 14 May 2011 (UTC)

I thought you might say that, but it seems to be rather well-researched. I'll try to find replacements for anything significant. Malleus Fatuorum 23:15, 14 May 2011 (UTC)

I've found original sources for pretty much everything sourced to that web site and removed everything else. Unlike your favourite period there's a lot of digitised material and reprints around thankfully; the gibbet seemed to fascinate some 19th-century historians, but of course it's pretty much forgotten now. I never really intended to get so involved with the article, but one thing leads to another and I did. Malleus Fatuorum 00:27, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

If there's a local history museum, it might be worth phoning (or visiting) them—in my experience even the smallest ones tend to have a big stack of dusty books and booklets on sale, some of which are so obscure or so long out-of-print that they've never been spotted by Amazon et al, and usually very cheap. – iridescent 00:38, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

There was one, but it closed, the Piece Hall Museum. I believe that the axe itself is currently in the Bankfield Museum, so I may contact them to see what they may know about it. Malleus Fatuorum 00:43, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

My experiences with museums haven't been great though. After some persuasion I managed to get an image of Worsley Man from the Manchester Museum, but the form of words in their emailed permission to use it wasn't acceptable to the OTRS police so it's gone. Malleus Fatuorum 00:53, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

Probably worth contacting the Yorkshire Museum Service themselves, both to ask whether they have any significant display covering the gibbet and/or the early history of Halifax, and to get a feel for whether their shops stock anything useful. The Yorkshire Museum and York Castle Museum are arguably the most significant archaeological/historical museums in the country after the BM/V&A/Museum of Scotland/Ashmolean big guns, and thanks to Dick Turpin probably have more on crime and punishment than a typical local history museum—even if they don't have anything directly relevant, they might be able to point you towards someone else who does. In my experience, most museums are quite flattered to be asked, particularly if you can persuade them that whatever you're writing has the potential to boost their visitor numbers. (Wikipedia does have an impact; if you run the titles of TFAs through topsy.com (which tracks Twitter and blog posts) you do see bursts of chatter about the topics. If even 0.1% of people reading an article decide to go to the museum to see it for themselves, that's an extra hundred people through the door.) – iridescent 10:38, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

I've asked Bankfield Museum if they have anything. If anyone does I think it must be them, as they're in Halifax, only about a mile away from the site of the gibbet. Malleus Fatuorum 19:58, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

Update: I've today received a reply from the Bankfield Museum, where the axe head is on display. There is an information leaflet, but it doesn't contain anything not already in the article. They have pointed out a few more early sources though, which I'll see if I can hunt out. The oldest are in the Bodleian apparently, but I'm not trekking down to Oxford to find them. Malleus Fatuorum 19:44, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

If there's a way to do it with minimal effort, it might be worth pinging the Museum of Scotland to see if there's anything on the early history of the Edinburgh Maiden. Because that's one of their star exhibits, it's probably been quite extensively covered, and it's documented that its design was copied from the Halifax Gibbet. Sometimes people writing about very tangentially related subjects shed light into unexpected corners—it was from a dry-as-dust book on early Surrey industrial railways that I discovered the omitted-from-the-tourist-literature 19th century practice of grinding up the skeletons of the London poor, shipping the resultant powder to the North, and selling it to farmers as fertiliser. (Watch this space for more on that one.) – iridescent 19:59, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

Malleus, let me know waht those sources are? U of I's library often has some pretty obscure journals in print form... Ealdgyth - Talk 20:14, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

To quote the museum's collection manager: "The Bodleian Library has some of the oldest references if you want to go to original source material". Which if I was writing a book on the subject obviously I'd want to do, but this is wikipedia, where I'd get slated for using primary sources anyway. The two main secondary sources they suggested were The Yorkshire Coiners and notes on Old and Prehistoric Halifax by H. Ling Roth printed by F. King & Sons 1906, and John Watson's History of Halifax (1775), which I've managed to find only in snippet view, but that might be enough, as from what I can tell it relies pretty much on Samuel Midgeley's/John Bentley's 1761 book, which I've found a copy of. (Midgeley was actually writing at the end of the 17th century, less than 50 years after the last executions, so his account is probably a good one.)

I'm conscious that I'm relying quite heavily on 17th, 18th, and 19th-century sources, as the gibbet seems to have been largely ignored by later historians. Do you think that might be a problem? Malleus Fatuorum 20:42, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

If there has been nothing more recent done on the object, that may be your best choice. If you stick with GA only, it shouldn't be an issue, and if you head for FA, just be prepared to show that nothing else has been done on the gibbet since the 19th century...) Let me dig a bit more.. Ealdgyth - Talk 20:52, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

Thanks. I've found a few 20th-century sources as well, but it doesn't seem to be a subject that's attracted much attention from modern historians so far as I can tell. Malleus Fatuorum 20:58, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

The recurring problem I have is that I start off thinking that I'll just do enough to get through GA, but then I think, hang on, this needs to be covered as well, and that ... and one thing leads to another. It's mental really. Malleus Fatuorum 21:02, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

Preaching to the choir here... I mean, I meant that Richard Barre would just be a little stub to round out William Longchamp's article, fill in a bit more. And then it grew, and I thought, "oh, cool, GA!" and then ... I filled in some more and went .. "Ugh, FA!" Ealdgyth - Talk 21:05, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

Here's what I've found... strongly suggest getting the Holt. (I haven't got it .. yet, but have read it in the past through the library) Ealdgyth - Talk 21:01, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

1920 book reprint
possible
Halifax Gibbet-Law and the Court of the Savoy, The

AT Carter - A History of English Legal Institutions, 1902

you need this J Holt Colonial England - Holt's one of the grand masters of medieval English history, so anything he states is going to be good for a "modern historical" perspective

(edit conflict) Thanks. I'm already using Holt; I stumbled across it earlier today and I'll check out the others. I'm trying to approach this article as if I'm telling a story, so what I'm looking for is gaps in the narrative. I'm not happy yet that I've made a sufficiently strong connection between the tenters and the severity of the Halifax Gibbet-Law, but I think I'll be content when I've plugged that gap. There's a limit to what one man can do. :-) Malleus Fatuorum 21:09, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

Have you tried looking at more general "origins of the guillotine" titles? If I were writing a book on early head-lopping machines, I know I'd title it in that form; "gibbet" to most people means something completely different (see my comment a couple of threads up), but any general history of the guillotine would presumably give quite lengthy coverage to Halifax. (These characters might know of further sources, too.) – iridescent 21:06, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

I have, but it seems that Dr Guillotin wasn't aware of the Halifax Gibbet, and invented his own device quite independently (or rather his mate Louis did). I've already had a good look through that Guillotine Headquarters web site, mainly looking for good sources, as some of the info on there is a bit dodgy. Even the date of the last executions is wrong. Malleus Fatuorum 21:13, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

Having read a bit more of Holt's book now it's really tied quite a few of the loose ends together for me. Great find. Malleus Fatuorum 23:16, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

DYK for Pain fitzJohn

On 17 May 2011, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Pain fitzJohn, which you created or substantially expanded. The fact was ... that the Anglo-Norman administrator Pain fitzJohn (died 1137) was once called a "second-class baron and a first-class civil servant"? You are welcome to check how many hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, quick check) and add it to DYKSTATS if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

The DYK project (nominate) 17:47, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

Is it Coplestone-Crow or Copleston-Crow?

''I'm Copleston Crow, I'd have you know,

Not Pigeon or Sparrow or Magpie or Rook,

I can tell by your expression you don't give a ''

Ning-ning (talk) 07:32, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

Ning - you are sooo silly... Ealdgyth - Talk 21:01, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

Eorpwald of East Anglia

Just to let you know I've put the work into the article according to your suggestions. I now feel like a rest, as I've got Yorke, Plunkett and Kirby going round and round in my head. I'm not all worried if you're too busy to check my work at present. Thanks for all your comments, by the way. --Amitchell125 (talk) 17:52, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

I will take a glance at it later today, after I get some RL stuff done. Hey, and I feel your pain, it's normal for all the various sources/books/names/events to go around and around in your head... be glad you're sticking with just the Anglo-Saxon era, I get to add the Anglo-Norman and early Angevin/Plantagenet eras to my workload! Ealdgyth - Talk 18:28, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

Thanks Ealdgyth --Amitchell125 (talk) 21:03, 18 May 2011 (UTC)