User talk:Deditus
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Changing "St." to "St" Comment Comment
[edit]Hi there, I noticed you have made edits to several articles changing "St." to "St", (i.e. removing the full stop/period) for example St Conal's Hospital. You gave as the reason "standardising punctuation". Which Wikipedia guideline is this based on? I can only find this entry from Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Abbreviations:
Saint (or Sainte) versus the St and St. abbreviations in placenames should follow the most common rendering found in reliable sources; this will most often match the official name of the place.
This would mean St. Conal's would retain its full stop. --GeneralBelly (talk) 16:01, 21 March 2020 (UTC)
- It would not. The section of the manual of style you mention contains Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Abbreviations#Abbreviations widely used in Wikipedia, one of which is "St. or St" for "Saint". At the top of this section is "Versions of non-acronym abbreviations that do not end in stops (periods) are more common in British than North American English". St Conal's Hospital is not American. I just followed what has been done elsewhere over many years, offering similar or other reasons, such as St Macartan's Cathedral, Monaghan St Mary's Cathedral, Kilkenny (confusion with "street"). And notice that all cathedrals (except for one or two) in this template use a common rendering that is consistent with "St" (without a full stop). That is "standardising punctuation". And even if your quotation was followed, the conclusion you draw is not accurate - both national and local newspapers eschew the full stop, as do medical, social media and other sources related to the hospital. --Deditus (talk) 10:52, 23 April 2020 (UTC)
- It's not American but it's not English either. There is considerable variation across Ireland. I would not rely on the Facebook page as it is unofficial, or the ICO website as they omit the full stop in other cases where a full stop is otherwise always used (e.g. SVPH [1]). In this case St. Conal's is written with a full stop on the hospital's own building signs and websites [2], so we don't need to rely on other sources. The same is true of other hospitals in Ireland which are named after saints, e.g. St. Michael's[3], St. James's [4], St. Luke's [5] (uses both Saint and St.), St. Joseph's [6], St. Vincent's [7], etc. Is it more appropriate to apply the style of the UK (which is not absolute) or use the style common across hospital's in Ireland or the style applied by the hospital itself? I think the argument is strongly in favour of using the style which is used by the hospital itself and in this case it was the style originally used in the article. GeneralBelly (talk) 16:27, 23 April 2020 (UTC)
- You seem to have a valid point.
- However, even the official source you provide for St Joseph's uses "St." at the top and "St" seven times underneath. Luke's uses "St" on its own website, as well as the two forms you mention. Vincent's uses the form you agree with in this headline from its website, then uses the form you disagree with several times throughout. This means that even the hospitals themselves are using "St" when writing articles and reserving "St." for logos, headers and the like (where it could perhaps be an issue with design), and not being particularly bothered if they are described with the "St" in long reports or articles (as they are in the media and on their own websites). Leaving aside the possibly/probably uncertain web sources you've addressed in your response, the local newspaper I provided has been in print continuously since the early twentieth century (apparently, it hasn't missed an edition through two world wars), and the (national) Irish Independent has been around since about the same time.
- Your sources (in many cases) use one form and my sources use another. Therefore it doesn't seem to be as clear as it first appeared. If all the hospitals use the form you mention, then there is something to be said for having them that way. Though the sources I have provided (and several of yours) show that the form you dispute is also widely used.
- I have not changed any other hospitals. I agree to disagree (possibly even agree to slightly agree).
--Deditus (talk) 14:42, 30 April 2020 (UTC)
- The more I look at it, the more I think "St" is indeed more appropriate given that it's a contraction, that it's more common for Irish language style to align with British rather than US style, and given the variability that you've highlighted. I would say it's best to leave it as you've edited it, which reflects the common media use.GeneralBelly (talk) 19:43, 30 April 2020 (UTC)
- It's not American but it's not English either. There is considerable variation across Ireland. I would not rely on the Facebook page as it is unofficial, or the ICO website as they omit the full stop in other cases where a full stop is otherwise always used (e.g. SVPH [1]). In this case St. Conal's is written with a full stop on the hospital's own building signs and websites [2], so we don't need to rely on other sources. The same is true of other hospitals in Ireland which are named after saints, e.g. St. Michael's[3], St. James's [4], St. Luke's [5] (uses both Saint and St.), St. Joseph's [6], St. Vincent's [7], etc. Is it more appropriate to apply the style of the UK (which is not absolute) or use the style common across hospital's in Ireland or the style applied by the hospital itself? I think the argument is strongly in favour of using the style which is used by the hospital itself and in this case it was the style originally used in the article. GeneralBelly (talk) 16:27, 23 April 2020 (UTC)
