User talk:Daicaregos/sandbox

A few comments

I though I'd comment here rather than "publicly" - I'll alert FruitMonkey as well. I've just read through the draft intro, and have some thoughts. There are some grammatical points, but we can sort those out in due course - I haven't made any changes to your draft.

However, I have some other comments. Re weather and climate - I think the text muddles the two (climate essentially being the long-term averaging out of weather), and throwing in the bit about "longer summer days" etc. doesn't help clarify it. (There's nothing special about that aspect as it's solely related to latitude, and to someone in Finland, say, or much of Canada, what is significant about Wales is how mild it is, not how short the days are!) But I question whether so much info about weather and climate is needed in the intro anyway. It's not as though Wales holds any international records for its weather. Personally, I'd edit a lot of it out and put more emphasis on the constitutional history (see below).

The second para seems to have a natural split halfway through, where it moves from the mention of English law to the discussion of agriculture. Personally, I'd split the para there, and the next para on cities etc. should then follow on the end of that para - making a single "geography" para. It then goes back to devolution, which I think should be in the "history" / "constitution" section. And, I think there should be a little more explanation of how the current constitutional position has developed.

The final para looks basically OK to me, but I'm not sure that Wales is "noted for" being bilingual - it just is bilingual.

So, basically what I suggest is something like this:

Wales (/ˈweɪlz/ ( listen), Welsh: Cymru; [4] pronounced [ˈkəmrɨ] ( listen)) is a country that is part of the United Kingdom,[5] bordered by England to its east and the Atlantic Ocean and Irish Sea to its west. It is generally mountainous, about 274 km (170 mi) from north to south and at least 97 km (60 mi) wide. Its total area is 20,779 km2 (8,023 sq mi). Wales has over 1,200 km (746 mi) of coastline, including its offshore islands; the largest, Anglesey (Ynys Môn), is also the largest island in the Irish Sea. Wales lies within the north temperate zone, its changeable, maritime climate makes it one of the wettest countries in Europe. Welsh weather, often cloudy, wet and windy, has warm summers and mild winters, the long summer days and short winter days, due to Wales' northerly latitudes. The highest mountains are in the north and central areas, especially in Snowdonia (Eryri), which contains Snowdon (Yr Wyddfa); at 1,085 m (3,560 ft), Wales' highest peak. (and the highest point in England & Wales ?)

During the Iron Age and early medieval period, Wales was inhabited by the Celtic Britons. A distinct Welsh national identity emerged in the centuries after the Roman withdrawal from Britain in the 5th century, and Wales is regarded as one of the modern Celtic nations today. Llywelyn the Great founded the Principality of Wales in 1216. Llywelyn ap Gruffydd's death in 1282 marked the completion of Edward I of England's conquest of Wales. (Does this wording suggest that Wales only existed as a country for 66 years? - maybe review the wording.) The castles and town walls erected to ensure its permanence are now UNESCO World Heritage Sites. Owain Glyndŵr briefly restored independence to what was to become modern Wales, in the early 15th century. Wales was subsequently annexed by England under the Laws in Wales Acts 1535–1542 since when, excluding those matters devolved to Wales since 1999, English law has been the legal system of Wales and England. (Expand here a little, to include... Distinctive Welsh politics developed in the 19th century. The National Assembly for Wales, created in 1999, holds responsibility for a range of devolved matters.

Wales lies within the north temperate zone, its changeable, maritime climate makes it one of the wettest countries in Europe. Welsh weather, often cloudy, wet and windy, has warm summers and mild winters, the long summer days and short winter days, due to Wales' northerly latitudes. (Previous sentences to be edited and reworded.) Wales was an agricultural society for most of its early history, the country's terrain made arable farming secondary to pastoral farming; the primary source of Wales' wealth. In the 18th century, the introduction of the slate and metallurgical industries, at the dawn of the Industrial Revolution, began to transform the country into an industrial nation; the UNESCO World Heritage Sites Pontcysyllte Aqueduct and the Blaenavon Industrial Landscape from that period. The south Wales coalfield's exploitation in the Victorian era caused a rapid expansion of the Welsh population. Two-thirds of Wales' estimated three million population live in south Wales; mainly surrounding the major conurbations of Cardiff (Caerdydd), Swansea (Abertawe) and Newport (Casnewydd). Another concentration lives in eastern north Wales. Cardiff, Wales' capital, is the country's most populous city, with 317,500 people, and for a period was the biggest coal port in the world. Today, with the country's traditional heavy industries (coal, steel, copper, tinplate and slate) either gone or in decline, Wales' economy depends on the public sector, light and service industries, and tourism.

Although Wales shares a close political and social history with the rest of Great Britain, it has continued to retained a distinct cultural identity. Wales is noted for being officially bilingual, the Welsh and English languages having equal status. The Welsh language is an important element of Welsh culture, and its decline during the 20th century has reversed over recent years. (Hmm. "Reversed" is debatable and potentially contentious, unless it is qualified in some way - or say "The Welsh language is an important element of Welsh culture, and its retention and development is an important part of national policy." - or something similar.) Over 580,000 Welsh speakers live in Wales, more than 20% of the population. From the late 19th century onwards, Wales acquired its popular image as the "land of song," attributable in part to the revival of the eisteddfod tradition. At international sporting events, such as the FIFA World Cup, Rugby World Cup and the Commonwealth Games, Wales is represented by national teams regulated and organised by over fifty national governing bodies of sports in Wales. At the Olympics Games, Welsh athletes compete as part of a Great Britain team. Although football has traditionally been the more popular sport in north Wales, rugby union is seen as a symbol of Welsh identity and an expression of national consciousness.

Ghmyrtle (talk) 10:04, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

Thank you for you input. It is welcome and appreciated. In general, I would happily agree to your suggested amendments and have incorpoated some of them into the draft on the previous page. Re highest peak in England & Wales: my view is that comparisons to other countries are unnecessary and lose focus on the topic (e.g. Snowdon is the highest point in Wales, England, Netherlands, Belgium, Luxembourg, Denmark etc., while true … so what? And btw, it is “Wales and England” from the pov of Wales). Re Llywelyns: perhaps Llyelyn Fawr should be replaced by Gruffydd ap Llywelyn's 1056 unification. Re Cymraeg: how about "The Welsh language is an important element of Welsh history and culture; its support and the promotion of its use, part of national policy." Re climate and weather: I'm sure that pretty much whatever you want to change it to will be fine. Though why do you want to move it from the Lead? Do you think there is a need to move the stats to the infobox, as suggested by Bjenks yesterday? If the stats were removed from the lead, it would leave the lead paragraph with only two sentences. Would you want to move climate and weather back, if the stats are removed? Should we replace the intro on the Wales article with the sandbox version yet? Daicaregos (talk) 15:20, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

I'll do some tweaks, and see what you (and others) think. My only point about Snowdon is that it's quite significant that it's higher than anywhere in England, which has a much larger area, and so is the highest point in the southern half of the island - but, if that's not sufficiently important or can't be expressed simply, it's no big deal. ("England and Wales" is the common term!) Re the Welsh language, how about "The Welsh language is an important element of Welsh history and culture, and its use is supported by national policy". Re the first para - I'm quite content to leave the basic measurements in there. The first para is what is shown in pop-ups, so I'd rather not have the non-core text on weather and climate in there. Ghmyrtle (talk) 17:01, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

PS: I've added the mention of Great Britain in the first para - otherwise it's not mentioned until much later, and I think it should be in the intro. Ghmyrtle (talk) 17:19, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

I agree with challenging the point on the decline of the Welsh 'being reversed'. Stemmed is probably closer to the truth, but stating a fact like you have suggested, is far safer than making an opinion. FruitMonkey (talk) 17:41, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

Those tweaks look better, although:
* Snowdon " ... the highest peak in the southern half of the island of Great Britain." looks strange. Can you think of a better way to introduce 'Great Britain' into the Lead? I agree it should be mentioned there. Its natural position would be in the first sentence, but ... It's not worth the inevitable grief. Any ideas?
* It is unclear how a distinctive Welsh politics (that developed in the 19th century) contributed to the growth of Welsh nationalism in the 20th century.
* The 'now' in "The National Assembly for Wales, created in 1999, now holds responsibility for a range of devolved matters of policy." is redundant. Daicaregos (talk) 22:55, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

I also feel the southern half of Great Britain as jarring, 'outside Scotland', ' barring Scotland', I'm not sure? Also the distinctive Welsh politics as far as I can see was the early 20th century embracing of the new labour movement, with extreme trade union links leaning towards communism and syndicalism in more industrial regions. That is the distinct Welsh political view, not Welsh nationalism, which has failed to date to engage the majority of the population.FruitMonkey (talk) 23:06, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

For the first para, how about: "Wales...is a country that is part of the United Kingdom and the island of Great Britain, bordered by England to its east and the Atlantic Ocean and Irish Sea to its west. It is generally mountainous, about 274 km (170 mi) from north to south and at least 97 km (60 mi) wide. Its total area is 20,779 km2 (8,023 sq mi). Wales has over 1,200 km (746 mi) of coastline, including its offshore islands; the largest, Anglesey (Ynys Môn), is also the largest island in the Irish Sea. The highest mountains are in the north and central areas, especially in Snowdonia (Eryri), which contains Snowdon (Yr Wyddfa); at 1,085 m (3,560 ft), its highest peak [or ..the highest peak in England and Wales]."

I agree about deleting the word "now". The question of summarising the political development needs a little more thought, but I think it should be possible to come up with a brief sentence that mentions both the liberal and socialist traditions, and the growth of nationalist sentiment (not necessarily to the extent of pushing for independence) - all of which are important and noteworthy, in my view. Ghmyrtle (talk) 09:32, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

Those changes are now incorporated. Just the politics now, then. How about:
"Distinctive Welsh politics developed in the 19th century. Welsh Liberalism, exemplified in the early 20th century by Lloyd George, was supplanted by the growth of Socialism and the Labour Party. Flooding the Tryweryn valley in 1965, led to the realisation that Wales was powerless in its own affairs, sparking the growth of Welsh (consciousness and?) nationalism. The National Assembly for Wales, created in 1999 following a referendum, holds responsibility for a range of devolved matters of policy." Daicaregos (talk) 17:09, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

As an alternative to the third sentence, how about: "Welsh national feeling grew over the century, with Plaid Cymru being formed in 1925 and Cymdeithas yr Iaith Gymraeg (The Welsh Language Society) in 1962..." Ghmyrtle (talk) 17:36, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

It was worth a try :) ... "with" as an additive link is deprecated (I should have linked the Liberal Party too). How about: "Welsh national feeling grew over the century; Plaid Cymru was formed in 1925 and Cymdeithas yr Iaith Gymraeg (The Welsh Language Society) in 1962." To give:
"Distinctive Welsh politics developed in the 19th century. Welsh Liberalism, exemplified in the early 20th century by Lloyd George, was supplanted by the growth of Socialism and the Labour Party. Welsh national feeling grew over the century; Plaid Cymru was formed in 1925 and Cymdeithas yr Iaith Gymraeg (The Welsh Language Society) in 1962. The National Assembly for Wales, created in 1999 following a referendum, holds responsibility for a range of devolved matters of policy."
Would "devolved policy matters" read better? Daicaregos (talk) 18:05, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

Looks OK to me. I've tweaked the wording slightly in one or two places in the article as well, hopefully not contentious. I won't be online much over the next few days. Ghmyrtle (talk) 18:16, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

I'm happy. FruitMonkey (talk) 18:18, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

Great. Minor change: socialism from upper to lower case. I've made the changes and I'll copy this over to the Wales page. I think we should wait a further 24 hours for involved editor comment, but after that we should be good to go, I reckon. Good team effort, thank you both. Daicaregos (talk) 18:37, 1 December 2010 (UTC)