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Conversion therapy

If you get a chance, can you take another look. The guy is refusing to admit any significant reference to connections between reparative therapy and religion, despite numerous reliable sources that discuss this, many cited in the article, he has stuffed it full of historical detail about psychoanalysis & homosexuality going back to Freud, and beyond to Krafft-Ebing, removed a lot of the earlier good stuff from when it was at GA status, insists on idiocies like placing a Hungarian under Austria, and uses whatever rule he can think up to prevent well-sourced, accurate and reliable information going in - like WP:OR & WP:UNDUE for a paragraph on religion & conversion therapy taken from a UK national newspaper. I had to fight tooth and nail just to get parts on Bergler relating to the USA out of Austria and into USA so these could be supplemented with more detail about his work there in the 1950's - and get him to not refer to things that were not called conversion therapy (i.e. most psychotherapy & aversion therapy etc. that involved homosexuality prior to 1960) as conversion therapy. I am sick of it - he acts as if he owns the page and uses guidelines as weapons totally out of context. I've tagged it for neutrality and balance etc., but he removed it, and I've replaced it again. I haven't got time for this kind of thing, and he has completely exhausted my patience. I have tried reason, but he just reverts to intransigence while making sweeping changes himself. The only thing he seems to respond to is attrition - and I don't have time for it. However, it is an important article, and it is important it reflects the facts, and that is does so not solely from a US-based perspective. Otherwise it might as well not be there at all. Mish (just an editor) (talk) 15:04, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

To Benji and Mish: these comments about the dispute aren't correct. I've no problem at all with material dealing with connections between conversion therapy and religion, if it is reliably sourced and meets due weight. All of the material Mish added about that failed one or the other of those requirements. The material about NARTH consisted of details that were more appropriate to the NARTH article than to the conversion therapy article, as I pointed out when I removed it. Other parts of the material attributed Wayne Besen's opinions to critics of reparative therapy in general, even though it is clear that he was only expressing his own personal views. That had to be removed to keep the article accurate. Born Gay (talk) 00:20, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
It doesn't matter whose views they were, or whether it was about NARTH, these two articles were about conversion therapy and came from a major national newspaper reporting about the religious motivations that lay behind conversion therapy. You excluded them, just as you denied similar material from the APA, Dreger, Zucker and Spizer cited elsewhere in the article was relevant to the article. That is a serious POV problem you have there sunshine. Mish (just an editor) (talk) 00:57, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
I think Benji would probably prefer it if we didn't argue about this on his talk page. Take it to talk:conversion therapy. Born Gay (talk) 01:22, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
This is definitely a problem. Conversion therapy, especially in the US is almost solely tied to religious connotations with people believing non-neteronoramtive thoughts or deeds are morally wrong and therefore need to be fixed. Mental health practictioners focus on what distresses a patient, not their church, and homophobia is the root of these issues not homosexuality. The proponents of conversion therapy are almost exclusively tied to and supported by religious institutions. This should be quite clear in the lede and instead it is muddled with a list of researchers that doesn't make much sense IMHO. I pointed this out and was met with similar unbending response. It's quite likely this will go down to a RFC but the RFC itself should aim to be neutral and focus on the real crux issue(s), whatever they may be. A good start may be to read through versions prior to a post the editor's overhaul and see what has disappeared, appeared and indeed improved. Usually there is a middle ground but this is certainly a heated issue to begin with so keep calm and it will get fixed one way or another. -- Banjeboi 23:10, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
I replied on the Conversion therapy talk page; will try to keep further controversy off this page. Born Gay (talk) 23:39, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

Bored part 2

So in love lust with Dustin Lance Black thanks to these Caution: NSFW link ahead.. - ALLST✰R▼echo wuz here @ 06:09, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

Oh my, well, at least he can pull it off. So many of today's Hollywood stars should never document themselves as such but I'm sure many have and more will. Thank you for being so ... on top of this. Lol! BTW, very glad you're back and if you need help with eeay-ish things I'll do whatever I can. -- Banjeboi 01:50, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

Blur Magazine

Saw this on new page patrol. I have no idea if it's notable or not, but I thought it might be an article subject of interest to you. Cheers. ChildofMidnight (talk) 19:52, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

I would redirect to list of LGBT publications. It may exist but I'm not seeing ready sourcing and media are notorious for not reporting on each other. If they had launch parties and sponsorship of events that may help. -- Banjeboi 01:52, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

James Dobson

Could I get you to look over my not so recent edits to the Dobson page? I would have asked sooner but I lost the internet Thursday and didn't get it back fully until this afternoon. Soxwon (talk) 01:56, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

I cleaned the lede a bit - the spanking thing seems out of place, it has to be cited well and shown to be a significant part of his doling out parenting advice. The whole lede likely should be expanded a bit. He's one of the most prominent leaders of the Christian right-wing propogating socially conservative veiws and politicizing all manner of issues including an, IMHO, an obsession with homosexuality and abortion. The lede should also indicate he prescribes a literal fire-and-brimstone reading of the Bible.
James Dobson#Views on homosexuality seems quite the soapbox. Focus on the Family and Dobson have been widely criticized for decades by all manner of LGBT groups and activists. We seem to only cite PFLAG protesting one Love Won Out conference and then, y'know give even more of Dobson's take. There is a balance to be found but I think it's a ways off still. -- Banjeboi 02:28, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
I figured as much, but I kept going through and it seemed like what was offered was blatantly misrepresentative of what he actually said. I'd like to find sources that are accurate, rather than misconstrued. Soxwon (talk) 02:32, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

The Wikipedia SignpostWikipedia Signpost: 15 June 2009

Delivered by SoxBot (talk) at 11:05, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

Obama's plan for gay rights

http://www.obamasplanforgayrights.com/ - ALLST✰R▼echo wuz here @ 18:57, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

Indeed. This seems similar to Clinton with Don't Ask Don't Tell, promises and hope but nothing actually happenned. I think this is a case where there has to be ... bottom-up leadership so that Obama is seen as only doing what the people want. He wants a second term after all. -- Banjeboi 03:57, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

Template:Afdchanged

The signature thing only works for subst, the current parameter form is suitable for transclusion or subst. I'm not sure it's an improvement to change it to the subst only form. Why did you change it? Gigs (talk) 00:36, 17 June 2009 (UTC) BTW- I reverted afdchanged since you broke the instructions, but I'll leave afdrescue until we sort out which way we want to go with it. Gigs (talk) 00:42, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

It should definitely be subst although some templates aren't. In this case I think it's better to force a signature with the comment. -- Banjeboi 03:59, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

OK, I guess we can go that way with them. Gigs (talk) 12:14, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

Input requested (re:Perineum)

... at Talk:Perineum#Slang and piercing. Whatever404 (talk) 02:08, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

Good work, I've added refs as well. -- Banjeboi 21:02, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

Equality Mississippi

I just can't deal with this article emotionally right now so I'm going to stay out of it. I've posted a comment at the ANI thread. If you're interested, you may want to start here, http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://www.equalityms.org and look at pages such as http://web.archive.org/web/20021010152501/www.equalityms.org/msgayhistory.html and [[http://web.archive.org/web/20041204233607/www.equalityms.org/msgayhistory.html both of the latter which mention Jamie as my friend at the March 15, 2000 entry. - ALLST✰R▼echo wuz here @ 05:37, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

Also these may be of use.. historical anyway.. File:Original Equality Mississippi logo.gif and File:Second Equality Mississippi logo.gif - ALLST✰R▼echo wuz here @ 06:06, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

haha Watch this video from the old Equality Mississippi MySpace video page. - ALLST✰R▼echo wuz here @ 19:44, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

Actually, you can watch it here now since I've found it's in the public domain and I uploaded it to Commons. Feel free to find the best article suitable for this video.- ALLST✰R▼echo wuz here @ 21:04, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
I'll be happy to work on it but we may have to wait til Damienwtf and crew move on. We can pull from the oldest version before the "help" and use the best ideas since then. Is it possible to get copies of the documents covered by the OTRS so we can state which items are cited to which, or to clarify ids OTRS that we can use anything verbatim from the website or what? -- Banjeboi 21:06, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
I guess I can give a broad-stroke permissioni to OTRS to use anything and everything relating to Equality Mississippi that comes from or is attributed to Equality Mississippi. - ALLST✰R▼echo wuz here @ 21:12, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
I mangled my comment again - damn words! To clarify, does the OTRS cover specific documents already or what did it address? I think you've already addressed how to source the friendship question. whip out the dreaded galendar use timeanddate.com if needed. And sort out at least one radio or TV interview and cite that. You could also bundle them together if unable to specifiy one ala
<ref> From June 10-20th, Mississippi Equality director ___ gave numerous interviews in an effort to locate ____ including information about the missing vehicle, in many of these he cited them as being close friends.</ref> -- Banjeboi 21:33, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

Premature archiving of ANI thread concerning Allstarecho

You aren't an admin, and you're clearly not uninvolved, so why did you take it upon yourself to prematurely archive a topic on ANI? The thread has already been closed and would have been archived in due course - what justification do you have for removing the thread prematurely? Delicious carbuncle (talk) 21:51, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

The same for collapsing it which you undid - this issue wasn't in need of admin help and was only distracting from the more serious original topic which I pointed out both times. You may also wish to take in the very next comment after your uncollapsing it - As an uninvolved party, I've re-closed it. Seems to have run its course and there's nothing more to discuss - just navel-gazing at this point. xeno. This would have been archived already had you not tried to re-open it. If you really want to discuss the big glory hole scandal again please start a new thread, if it's that important the communit really should be aware of it. -- Banjeboi 21:57, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
Xeno changed the date tags so that archiving would not have been delayed by either of our actions. Regardless, this seems like an attempt to protect your friend from scrutiny. I can understand your motivation, but I don't believe it is helpful in the long run. As has been said by more than one editor in the ANI discussion(s), the problem is not solely with Damiens.rf. I see you are now collapsing discussions at Talk:Equality Mississippi, presumably for the same reason. Why would you not leave this for someone who has less involvement in this matter? Delicious carbuncle (talk) 22:32, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
Actually I would have done pretty much the same if the roles were reversed, It was degrading the origiinal topic thread which should have some resolution even if consensus was to do nothing. Also there was an over-abundance of scrutiny much of it finding clever glory hole jokes. As for the discussion threads on the article they seem quite contentious at times and if you look at those I did collapse i think you'll see my judgement was rather spot-on. I regularly do this to keep discussion focussed on outstanding relevant issues so those veiwing the page can more quickly come up to speed. I've witnessed Damiens.rf's rather contentious editing for many months and never felt positive about their approach. I'm also, however, not sure what the best way to get them to dial down the snarkiness and personal vedetta-vibes I get from them. Similar editors have simply been topic-banned from all LGBT articles but if Damiens.rf has had similar civilty issues with other editors on other subjects then that too may not be the best approach. They also seem to have an interest in only deleting material, I wonder if a topic ban from all deletion work until they bring an article from stub to GA might help here so they can work on creating which is much harder than deleting. -- Banjeboi 22:50, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

Jeff Whittington 2

I see Damiens.rf did the same tag-splattering here as well. His agenda is so painfully obvious... he also hit this one today. I'm just amazed at his voracity. - ALLST✰R▼echo wuz here @ 06:17, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

yuck. They will earn their place which is likely somewhere not on Wikipedia, keep the faith no matter how distasteful they may act towards you. A side benefit of my personal conditions is that I'm so scattered hounding me is rather pointless. perhaps a barnstar for steadfast hounding would be a lol. -- Banjeboi 09:47, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

police raid

I though this existed already. build one. Banjiboi

Moved to todo. -- Banjeboi 04:09, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

Robert Mapplethorpe

Add infobox, image and start cleaning up. Banjeboi

moved to todo. -- Banjeboi 04:09, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

Fudgie Frottage

add infobox. Banjeboi

moved to todo. -- Banjeboi 04:09, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

Start Adelante

moved to todo. -- Banjeboi 04:09, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

Terminology of homosexuality

more items to be reffed. Banjeboi

moved to todo. -- Banjeboi 04:09, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

R Family Vacations

add logo. Banjeboi

Moved to todo. -- Banjeboi 04:09, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

Renée Richards

Add infobox. -- Banjeboi

Moved to todo. -- Banjeboi 04:09, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

Jerome Caja

create. -- Banjeboi

Moved to todo. -- Banjeboi 04:09, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

The Denver Principles

recreate stealth and DYK. -- Banjeboi

Moved to todo. -- Banjeboi 04:09, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

National Immigration Law Center

Create DYK stubby. -- Banjeboi

Moved to todo. -- Banjeboi 04:09, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

"Prop 8 - The Musical"

Revive and launch. -- Banjeboi

Moved to todo. -- Banjeboi 04:09, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

Twirlin'

Confirm article title is most accurate (spelling, usage), clean-up lede, add refs. -- Banjeboi

Moved to todo. -- Banjeboi 04:09, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

San Francisco Sex Information

Restore deleted content, refs abound. -- Banjeboi

moved to todo. -- Banjeboi 04:09, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

Sex reassignment surgery

Rewrite, source and restore 31 March and 1 April removals. -- Banjeboi

Moved to todo. -- Banjeboi 04:09, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

talk:Intersexuality

Address EL issue. -- Banjeboi

Stale. -- Banjeboi 04:09, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

slut night

research, refix, rewrite. -- Banjeboi

Moved to todo. -- Banjeboi 04:09, 20 June 2009 (UTC)
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