User talk:Bbaldwin7

Woodlawn

Why did you just mess up the work that User:DanTD has been doing on this article?--Kew Gardens 613 (talk) 14:00, 21 January 2018 (UTC)

I think this person might have a legitimate reason to edit it this way. I meant to bring this up as I was expanding the history, but even though that WGBH Boston link said the crash took place in Woodlawn, the book "The Coming of the New York and Harlem Railroad," by Louis V. Grogan said it was in Williamsbridge. I found similar disputed info on the New York and New Haven Railroad article which claimed that the NY&NH's agreement with the Harlem was to have trackage rights south of Williamsbridge rather than Woodlawn. ---------User:DanTD (talk) 14:29, 21 January 2018 (UTC)

First, Kew Gardens 613 complained that I've "messed up" DanTD's work. Now, DanTD is writing to say, "this person might have a legitimate reason to edit it this way". Question: Who am I responding to here? The Wikipedia history says the author of the text is DanTD.

I grew up in the northwest Bronx and watched, photographed, and rode the trains of the Harlem Division from 1961 to 1985. I own dozens of books on the NYC and NH operations in the Bronx, etc. There are often mistakes made by authors who are referencing things with too much generality, or repeating old inaccuracies which have appeared in print. No one can have a good reason to continue spreading such mistakes. I'm only interested in correcting facts which are wrong or confusing. I don't wish to step on another's good faith efforts to add or expand on material here. As I said, I was only concerned with correcting what was inaccurate regarding the 1907 accident location, and the confusion regarding the New Haven Railroad's regular stops in the Bronx on the Harlem Division. Nothing more.

I don't know how the other text that you had added was deleted, as none of it appeared in the screen text I was editing, or on the page that initially opened on Wikipedia. Why that happened is a mystery to me, I've never seen anything like that occur before.Bbaldwin7 (talk) 15:14, 21 January 2018 (UTC)

First, I understand your reasons for wanting to correct any inaccuracies. Your mentioning of the New Haven running Football special and Botanical Gardens special trains to Fordham and Botanical Gardens stations respectively are believable, but the right of New Haven to use the Harlem Line is still a solid claim. The 1845 map, the New Haven inscription on Grand Central Depot in 1880, the very existence of Woodlawn Junction and the fact that New Haven could've run some of their trains on this line at all should serve as evidence of this.

Second, since you say you grew up in the northwest Bronx, when exactly was the station house for Woodlawn burned down? I've been trying to find articles of this on line, but so far none have turned up. ---------User:DanTD (talk) 15:33, 21 January 2018 (UTC)

Sorry, Dan. I can't tell you exactly when the fire was, but as I recall in passing it, the fire did not cause a structural collapse of the building. I seem to recall that it was standing with boarded-up windows in the mid-seventies. All the Harlem stations got high-level platforms to use with the new Metropolitan cars during the summer of 1971 or 72. At the time, the division was under the just bankrupt Penn Central and the MTA was giving them cash to do all of this. On some stations the clearance was sufficient to allow the old platform peaked roofing to remain. Conrail took over from Penn Central in 1976, and with more money from the MTA they started to tear down almost all of the old station structures. Most of these stations hadn't sold tickets since the 1940s. Some like the Botanical Gardens station had been boarded up since the late-40s. I recall that the Penn Central even padlocked and chained-shut the waiting room in the Fordham Station about 1971, and it stayed that way until at least the mid-late-70s. Woodlawn was treated the same way. These stations were all locked and closed, long before the buildings were torn down. Fordham Station is perhaps the only one of the Harlem Division stations in the Bronx that now exists and has an open waiting area. Even when these stations were boarded up there was always access to the platforms and, of course, you could buy a ticket on the train. I'd say that all the old station buildings were removed starting about 1976, after Conrail took over, and there was a second great infusion of MTA cash. I'd say the job was finished by about 1980. I was not in the Woodlawn or Wakefield areas of the Bronx much during that time period, but I recall being surprised to drive by Woodlawn one day and see the station building gone. The 1970s changed everything. I totally lost interest when the old equipment and structures went. It was a totally different world. Seeing FL-9 diesels painted back into NH McGinnis colors was the only wonderful surprise and that happened, just before I left the Bronx and moved to LA. I'd suggest contacting the Bronx County Historical Society and a rail fan chapter dedicated to the New York Central and the Harlem, Hudson, and Putnam Divisions. I'm sure they'll have all the clippings and probably

a lot more.

http://capitollimited.blogspot.com/2013/09/new-york-city-1.html Here's a 1970-71 picture at Woodlawn. The fire has already taken place. You can see that plywood has closed all the windows and there are running soot marks on the building. I seem to recall that there was a hole in the roof on the 233rd Street side. I'd stand by my guess that it was demolished with the first infusion of MTA cash, after Conrail took over in 1976. So sometime between 1976 and 1980, the building came down.Bbaldwin7 (talk) 17:47, 21 January 2018 (UTC)

If and when I ever get back up to the Tri-State area, I'll look into the Bronx County Historical Society. And if I can contact them without being in the city, that'd be even better. ---------User:DanTD (talk) 02:24, 22 January 2018 (UTC)

Here's some more info to be found online with some good pictures. The Woodlawn station appears to have had an initial fire after it was already boarded-up. A photo at the web address, previously noted above, shows a photo of the station building open in 1957-8, but very closed by the 1970-71 photo, with details suggesting it has already had a fire inside. This was probably a case of arson, after the station was already closed. Now, check out William Palter website with photos of closed Bronx stations taken by his father Walter Palter -- http://palter.org/~subway. This collection has photos of the station building as I last recall it -- boarded-up with a hole in the roof on 233rd street side. Then there is a second series of photos, after what must have been a very big fire which totally gutted the structure. The date of the photo collection appears to be no later than April 2nd, 1975, which would indicate that the big station fire was just before this date. (I know the pictures of the Fordham Station, with the ground clearing on the adjacent Fordham University campus, reflect a date of about 1975. Back at Woodlawn Station, note that the station tower seen in the 1957-8 and 1970-71 photos is now gone. I would interpret this to mean that the tower was taken down when the first short-sections of the high-level platforms were put in place at each Harlem Division station. That would have been late in 1971. So I think this all points to the fact that the demolition of the fire-gutted Woodlawn structure probably took place right after Conrail took over in 1976.Bbaldwin7 (talk) 06:13, 22 January 2018 (UTC)

I thought to email an old high school classmate, who has lived in Woodlawn his whole life. He wrote back that he has used the Harlem Line since the early-70s to get to various jobs in Manhattan. He also looked at the pictures I referred him to, and told me there was no big second fire that he can recall. The station was boarded up when he first starting using it to get to college in NYC in 1972. He said what the pictures show is how they took the building apart, one section at a time, so as not to have the dismantling cause greater danger to the tracks and trains below. At the time those photos were taken (he thinks 1974 or 75) the roof shingles had been removed from most of the roof. Then they removed the roof beams, etc. Gradually reducing the structure in that fashion. He recalls that the work moved slowly, and there appeared to be more than one contractor involved. Hope this adds further insight into what happen. 1975 or 76 is looking like a good guess for the end of the knockdown.Bbaldwin7 (talk) 09:21, 23 January 2018 (UTC)

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