User talk:Angusmclellan/List of monarchs of Scotland

King of Alba and King of Scots

Before 900, the titles in the Irish annals are generally Latin, but after change to Gaelic; thereafter they remain in Gaelic, and the Irish annals continue to note Scottish affairs in some detail until the death of William I, and the king is always called rí Alban or ard-rí Alban; there's a break, then Scottish affairs get noted in detail for the reign of Robert I, baring the same style (Edward I of England has the same title). Likewise, Latin documents originating in Scotland only come down to us from the reign of Macbethad (and that is probably a later translation from Gaelic - as are most of those documents from the Registrum of the priory of St Andrews). It's not until Donnchad II that we can be reasonably sure that the style issued is actually the king's own, and that in the charter issued to Durham with "King of Scots" (in Latin) is just using the title for the Scottish monarchs that the ASC shows had been in use in England since the 10th century. My point? These changes in style are routed in the language of the sources that record the styles, not in any meaningful change in style. The section on the "King's poet" in Bower shows that King Alexander III was being addressed at his coronation as rí Alban. - Calgacus (ΚΑΛΓΑΚΟΣ) 00:17, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

A very good point, and one that should have been obvious (but isn't everything after it has been explained ?). Then, in that case, there doesn't seem to be any non-arbitrary reason to divide earlier kings at all, which would leave "to Alexander III", "Balliols and Bruces" (the overuse of Wars of Independence invites two sorts of POV) and "Stewart dynasty". Anyway, this is just doodling for the moment, as is the User:Angusmclellan/List of Kings of the Picts. I see problems with the bulleted list format, it makes adding comments and explanations difficult. A table would be better, although it needn't be as shiny as the List of High Kings of Ireland one. I'm expecting be sitting watching nothing happen in the office tomorrow and the next day, so there's something I can do. Sitting reading through a stack of books and notes might get me some funny looks. Cheers ! Angus McLellan (Talk) 00:48, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

A while ago I planned to implement some form of the List_of_Lithuanian_rulers format to this Scottish list, but considered I had better priorities. As for dividing them up, who knows. I don't see any point doing it at all, but people are as they are, and demand it. Dauvit Broun's website may help a little here. But the Oxford Companion might be good for the earlier kings, dividing it into the dynasty of Cináed mac Ailpín and the House of Canmore (also employed by Oram). Cennmór as far as I know, is first employed contemporarily for King Máel Coluim IV (i.e. AU1165: Mael Coluim Cennmor, mac Eanric, ardri Alban, in cristaidhe as ferr do bai do Gaidhelaibh re muir anair), and meant Great Chief (Cenn is the medieval Gaelic word for the head of a kindred group, so Cenn Mór is similar in meaning to the Russian Великий князь, i.e Velikiy Kniaz, "Grand Duke", or the early Germanic word for king), but everyone thinks it means "Big Head" (to blame are all those early modern and modern historians who think they are competent to write about the period knowing nothing about Gaelic culture) and associates it with Máel Coluim III. And the dynasty has no particular break in continuity, other than the fact that descendents of Máel Coluim III by Margaret promoted propaganda about her to weaken the equally legitimate claims of rivals branchs such as the MacWilliams and MacHeths, who didn't have the contacts or resources to create a Saint Ingibjorg. The only real break is the reign of Máel Coluim II (note the later Scottish royal genealogies go X filius X ... filii Maíl Choluim ... filii Donnchada ... nepos Maíl Choluim, conveniently missing out non-royal Crínán of Dunkeld, going through the female line to connect them to Máel Coluim II). I think Dauvit Broun once called them the Uí Donnchada, but on wiki Dunkeld is the form, because of their descent from Crínán. So we'd have the Alpinids (a term invented by Alex Woolf) and the Dunkelds, but Moray doesn't work, Macbethad and Lulach aren't connected by direct male descent. At the time, they thought of themselves as something approximately like the Cenél nGabrain and Cenél Loairn (see those genealogies), and indeed that would be a sensible way to do it, but it's not well known enough, and is based on the false believes of the Scottish genealogies of the period. It's prolly no biggie though. The Pictish list you're doing though, great! Those "dynasties" are nonsense; and congrats, I saw you inserted a few missing kings. Good luck with all this! - Calgacus (ΚΑΛΓΑΚΟΣ) 01:30, 24 April 2006 (UTC)