User talk:Andyj288

Ford

The List of 24 Hours of Le Mans winners is for manufacturers, as in companies. Where the specific car was built does not matter. Which specific division built the car does not matter. What private team entered the car and won the race does not matter. The company it was representing is what is being listed. And the Ford Motor Company is American. Again, as an example, the 1989 Sauber-Mercedes utilized a chassis built in Switzerland by Sauber, but the car as a whole and the company it was representing is still a German Mercedes.

Do not change this again. The³5₉ (Talk) 16:07, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

You are talking rubbish, Ford may be an American company overall, however the GT40 is is and always will be from England, another thing to point out Team Bentley according to you is not a British as they were owned by another foriegn company I will continue to change this as i see fit Ignorant people like you should take a history lesson

Again, the chart is not for the car, it is for the manufacturer. It does not say "point of origin of winning car", it says manufacturer. And that manufacturer is Ford. And Ford is American. Therefore the origin of the chassis does not matter. Not that you should be spouting about history lessons, since Henry Ford and Shelby American's involvement in the development of the GT40 is just as crucial as Lolas or Ford Advanced Vehicles division.

And no, Bentley represented Bentley. I never said parent company, I said company.

If you continue to edit war, you may be blocked from using Wikipedia. The³5₉ (Talk) 22:42, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

the manufacturer is Ford Europe which is based in England, it does not state where the parent company is from, as for Shelby having much to do with the GT40, he did very little, the only contribution he made was to introduce John Wyer to Ford and beef up the original gearbox until the zf unit came along

The manufacturer is Ford. If you want to argue it is Ford of Europe, then you'd actually be completely incorrect to use the British flag as Ford of Europe is headquartered in Germany as a successor company to Ford Germany. All of this of course ignoring the fact that Ford of Europe did not exist until 1967, well after development of the Ford GT had started. And Shelby not doing much? I seem to recall one of your moot arguements before being that British teams had won Le Mans twice with the GT40. What team exactly won the other two years then?

And again, you cannot seem to address the fact that the Sauber C9, built in Switzerland by the Sauber team at the behest of Mercedes-Benz, and only carrying the Mercedes engine while everything else was built in Sauber's facilities in Switzerland, is somehow still a German manufacturer's win? How is this any different than your claim that since the Ford GT40 was built in Britain, but using an American engine, it must therefore be British even though the company is American? Again, the specific location of where a car was built plays absolutely no part in determining who the manufacturing company of the car is.

Since you seem to not grasp these concepts, I suggest you have a read at WikiProject Motorsport and see what other editors have to say about this. The³5₉ (Talk) 20:11, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

I do not know anything about the Sauber and nor do i really care, you now seem to be splitting hair's ok it was actually ford dearborn that designed and made the GT40 but this is still English, it has very little as you state of who the owner is, the specific location of where a car was built is very important As to answer your question the first 2 years 66 and 67 Henry Ford was backing these cars to win, 68 and 69 he didnt want to know and gave no support, the mk1 GT40 was then further developed with no assistance from Ford Also it does not state manufacture it states constructor, there is a big difference

Oh, so you don't care about other examples that disprove your theory? How about I add another one? Porsche WSC-95, winner in 1996 and 1997, a car built by Tom Walkinshaw Racing in Britain using old Jaguar chassis. But still a German victory for Porsche.

Your entire arguement is "splitting hairs." You're arguing that dispite the big blue badge of an American car company on the front of the car, this car is somehow not from an American manufacturer because X parts are not American, even though Y parts are.

No, the specific location of where a car was built is not very important, because if it were, then Jaguars victories in the IMSA GT Championship with cars such as the XJR-12 were American because those cars were built by Tom Walkinshaw Racing's facilties in Valparaiso, Indiana. Or the Nissan GTP ZX-Turbos built in California. Or how about Toyota Racing F1 cars built in Germany? Or Renault F1 cars built in Britain? Or the Ford C100 Group C cars built by Zakspeed of Germany? Are you now going to argue that Ford is German? Or the Ford backed-Rondeau M482s that were built in France? Ford is French now? Or even the 2010 Ford GTs which competed in GT1, but were built in Switzerland by Matech Concepts? So Ford must be Swiss now. How many examples do you need to show that where the car was built does not determine the nationality of the manufacturer? The³5₉ (Talk) 03:51, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

The trouble is your talking about modern cars, its a different world to the 60's

What does the year or era have to do with what nationality the car company is? How is a 1982 Ford C100 modern? That's completely ignoring the point of these examples. The³5₉ (Talk) 18:20, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

It was classified as a british team, nowadays parts would come from all over the world, in the 60's it didnt happen like that

Team is not the same thing as a constructor or manufacturer. What nationality the winning team had for only 2 of the 4 years does not matter, especially since it was Shelby-American, an American team, who won the other two years.

And in the 60s parts didn't come from all over the world? So the original test chassis didn't come from Lola, or the design work didn't come from Dearborn, or the engines didn't come from elsewhere in America? These are different areas of the world last I checked. The badge on the front of the car is still Ford, and Ford is American, therefore your entire arguement is moot. It does not matter where in the world the car was built, if it's Ford, then it represents the company that funded and supported it, and they are an American company. The³5₉ (Talk) 19:58, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

To add to this, All American Racers, American team founded by American Dan Gurney, developed the Eagle Mk1 Formula One car in Britain as part of their Anglo American Racers division. So here we have an American company (Eagle) building a car in Britain in 1969, the same year Ford won again with the GT40, and their nationality is still American. Therefore the American-backed but British-built GT40 of the exact same year is also still American. The³5₉ (Talk) 20:20, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

we are not discussing the Eagle, even though some of this was designed in the USA and americans had a large part to play unlike the GT40 The GT40 is an English car, ran by, designed fully and built by English, and as stated once again 68 and 69 redesigned by John Wyer and his own team with no help from Ford, in fact Ford didnt want to know

You appear to be greatly confusing the Mirage M1, which did not win in 68 and 69, with the GT40. It does not matter if Wyer ran the cars. The matter is quite simple:

What badge is on the front of a GT40?

Ford.

What nationality is Ford?

American.

Any other conclusion is splitting hairs over what pieces came from where and where they were assembled, and all of it arbitrarily decided by you over which nation it represents. Listing Ford properly as American does not somehow diminish or ignore the British roots of the GT40, but accurately represents the company which was constructor of the car officially, as recognized by not only the ACO for Le Mans, but also FISA for the World Championship of Makes. The³5₉ (Talk) 00:58, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

This does not make any difference, Ford Motorsport division is now headed by Malcolm Wilson, the exact same way as John Wyer and his team, why is it when a Ford motor car wins an event the national anthem for Britain is always played, if what you are stating was correct they would be playing the American national anthem, so are you now telling me that the FIA are now incorrect.

It doesn't make a difference what badge is on the front of the car? I've posted a dozen different pieces of evidence to show that your logic is complete rubbish and all you've said is that it doesn't matter or that you don't care. Nor can I find a single shred of evidence in which a Ford car, entered by Ford in a manufacturers championship, has been represented by a British flag or British anthem. Their sole in win Formula One came through Stewart Grand Prix, a British constructor. WRC doesn't play national anthems, and in fact BP Ford Abu Dhabi World Rally team itself is entered as American (2010 World Rally Championship season).

The chart represents a manufacturer that has been represented at Le Mans. Not just when they won, but when they have competed. Unless you're implying that all the German-built or American-built or French-built Ford entries over the past 50 years should all magically be misrepresented as British because so much percentage of the Ford GT40 came from Britain, then you're completely missing the point. Ford is Ford is Ford is Ford in the eyes of the FIA and the ACO. They don't give a damn that the car that won Le Mans 4 times was British, it's still Ford, and the victory counts for Ford. It also doesn't matter if Ford completely ignored the car, it's Ford. Hell, Porsche completed ignored the Porsche WSC-95, they cancelled the whole project, Joest Racing were the ones who prepared it and ran it and won Le Mans twice with it. It's still a Porsche victory. The³5₉ (Talk) 18:37, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

Andyj, it's already been explained to you that the table lists the nationality of the manufacturer, and not the nationality of the shop where the car was built. Considering the Mercedes C9 was built in Switzerland by Sauber and the tubs of the Audi R8, R10 and R15 are manufactured in Italy by Dallara, it would still be nonsense to change the flags for Mercedes and Audi, as they are German companies. If you insist on changing the list of 24 Hours of Le Mans winners in spite of our continued reasoning with you, and continue to be argumentative for its own sake, your edits may be considered disruptive. --Pc13 (talk) 20:25, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

i have already prooved that the nationality of the manufacturer is not in question, its the constructor, its you who is being disruptive and rather silly as you obviously dont know much about this team or history We are discussing the GT40 nothing else and to start threatening me on a number of occasions shows you have already lost the argument because you cant get your own way is very sad and pathetic

You have yet to prove a thing, all you've done is made a claim based on your own personal belief of what a manufacturer or constructor is. Neither of which actually match what a manufacturer or constructor is in the eyes of the FIA or ACO. "Constructor" does not imply the little building in which the car was physically built, especially as even int he 1960s many companies and divisions played a part in the development of the GT40. Lola, ZF, Ford of Britain, the engines from American, Shelby-American, etc., and where the little building that all of this was assembled happens to be. Because you seem to arbitrarily be assigning nationality based on how much of the car is British, as if something could be quantified. How much is required for it to be considered British? 51%? 75%? Majority? How much of a percentage do all the parts get? All of this is numbers you're picking off the top of your head to somehow denote the nationality of this car.

Of course all of this ignores that Ford raced with many different cars at Le Mans, and the table represents the company's efforts across all races, not just the winning ones.

And yes, we are discussing more than the GT40, because your claim that the physical geographic point of origin of a car determines its constructors nationality would not only require major changes to the List of 24 Hours of Le Mans winners, but also many motorsports articles across Wikipedia. And if you don't want to feel threatened, then I suggest you listen to the multiple editors who are telling you that your interpretation of constructor is wrong. We work on consensus, not on "I'm going to do what I want". You clearly stated in your first reply "I will continue to change this as i see fit." It seems to me that you're the one who is not getting it your own way. We're simply cleaning up the mess you're making with your silly arguement. The³5₉ (Talk) 04:05, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

Andyj288, you are wrong. The359 and Pc13 have give you plenty of reasoned, logical examples of why you are wrong, yet you persist in your misguided stubbornness. Why? FoMoCo is and always has been an American company. Pyrope 04:21, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

You're ignoring an important fact. "Ford" is not, and never has been a racing team. That appears to be the source of your confusion. --Falcadore (talk) 06:15, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

As above Falcadore is correct, Ford have never had a racing team its subcontracted so Pyrope and 359 your wrong wrong wrong wrong

When he said confusion, he meant you. He said Ford has never been a racing team, as in a team entered solely as "Ford", not that they have never had a racing team. Ford has had several racing teams of many nationalities. But they all still represent Ford as the constructor. The³5₉ (Talk) 07:17, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

Indeed. That is what I meant. History of racing teams is utterly irrelevant to a list of constructors. --Falcadore (talk) 09:21, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

DNFTT people, DNFTT. Pyrope 16:48, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

I only speak english its just a shame your so wrong

Try telling that to the idiot squad, also someone stated that they dont play the the national anthem at rally events, up up until a few years ago they did as i used to follow them and marshalled more than i care to remember and they were played and when ford guess what national anthem was played

August 2010

You have been blocked from editing for a period of 31 hours to prevent further disruption caused by your engagement in an edit war. During a dispute, you should first try to discuss controversial changes and seek consensus. If that proves unsuccessful you are encouraged to seek dispute resolution, and in some cases it may be appropriate to request page protection. If you would like to be unblocked, you may appeal this block by adding below this notice the text {{unblock|your reason here}}. Royalbroil 11:58, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

Consensus has been clearly reached at the List of 24 Hours of Le Mans winners and you constantly disruptively are editing to your point of view. Royalbroil 11:58, 2 August 2010 (UTC)