User talk:Ammodramus/Archive 2

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This page contains (mostly) inactive discussions of William Steele and Frank Lloyd Wright buildings in Nebraska and nearby.

Susan LaFlesche Picotte Hospital photos and more

Recently discovered and read with great interest your additions to Dr. Susan LaFlesche Picotte Memorial Hospital.

I am based in Kearney, Nebraska, and have photographed a number of NRHP sites in the state. If you're contemplating or working on an article on a building in Nebraska, and you'd like it illustrated, please feel free to drop a line at my talk page. I travel extensively within the state, and while I can't promise an immediate response to a photo request, I'd probably be able to deliver within a year or so of the request.

Unfortunately, I know very little about architecture. If there's a particular feature of a building that you'd like illustrated, please give me a suitable-for-a-rank-layman description of it.

--Ammodramus (talk) 00:32, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

Wonderful! I'll reply further on your talk page.--Frankie Rae (talk) 21:11, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

I immediately thought of the Harvey P. Sutton House in McCook. But when I looked, it appears you recently took care of that - maybe very recently? Nice photos! They are some distance from Kearney, but I think of four for you to consider.

1. How about the Municipal Building (City Hall) in Hartington, Nebraska? It was built in 1922, is at 101 North Broadway, and is apparently an interesting Prairie School building, also by architect William L. Steele.

2. And if you're up that far north, how about straying across the border to Yankton, South Dakota? Steele designed the Yankton Sacred Heart School in 1921, and it's at 504 Capitol Street.

3. Further west along the border with Nebraska in Lake Andes, South Dakota is the Charles Mix County Courthouse, said to be a smaller version of the magnificent Woodbury County Courthouse by Steele with Purcell and Elmslie? Steele built it in 1917, and it's at 400 Main St.

4. And there would be features of the Dr. Susan LaFlesche Picotte Memorial Hospital that could use some detailed photos.

I could suggest some points to try to capture on these four, if you're interested. Although based on your photos of the Sutton House, you've already got quite a knack for the camera!

As you can tell, I've been emphasizing Steele recently. There remain a few buildings of his in Sioux City that I'm trying to acquire photos of, if Iowa is in the picture. He also spent time in Omaha, but so far I haven't yet discovered any Steele-designed buildings there, although they likely exist! Thanks! --Frankie Rae (talk) 21:11, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for the reply. I spend a lot of time in Norfolk, so Hartington and Walthill aren't that far away. For that matter, South Dakota isn't either; I might use your photo requests as a pretext to run up there.

By all means, suggest views or details that I should try to photograph. As I said, I know almost nothing about architecture. I try to compensate by taking lots of pictures, hoping that at least one will show the detail of interest. If you can suggest things that I should focus on, there's a better chance of your getting the details you want; and I'll learn something in the process.

--Ammodramus (talk) 16:22, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

This is really exciting! I provide some of my favorite ideas below, but you've already displayed quite a sense of what to photograph.

1. Hartington Municipal Building Here's a photo.

Context: several sources mention the relationship of this building with the Cedar County Courthouse, apparently directly south across the street. If possible, a shot showing them together? Or other shots showing it with the neighboring structures?

Composition: Among other things, Prairie School architecture is predicated on clarity of composition based on "form follows function" - the exterior should be determined by what's inside. Shots illustrating the various cubical components alone as well as how they relate to each other would be excellent, together with anything you can say about what is inside those cubes. For instance, the exterior might give clues to where the auditorium space within is located.

Exterior: the details that interest you are likely the ones we need - cornerstone, name, the funny "balconette" above the entrance, round arches over doors and windows with window hoods, the rows of pilasters (attached columns) on the front (west, apparently), and side (south) with distinctive capstones. See if you can capture what appear to be symetrical chimneys. Perhaps not as obvious: images of the entire row of pilasters from an angle, showing them lined up; images of the capstones; and close-up images of the various kinds of brickwork, including the plainest brickwork there. Steele will likely have had them do the mortar differently on the horizontal versus vertical spaces between the bricks, with the vertical flush with the brick while the horizontal is deeply raked, to emphasize the horizontal. The north side is thought to be quite plain, but needs an image if accessible (it might simply abut the neighboring building). I'm not sure what to expect on the east, but it should include the firehouse doors.

Interior: it might not be open or photos prohibited, but if possible, inside photos of the several functions - city offices, auditorium, armory and gym in basement, fire house in the southeast corner including sleeping quarters, apparently at least at one time on the balcony of the gym? Like all Prairie School architects, Steele liked to get outside light into the building through skylights or domes, so that might show up. One source mentions the excellent oak woodwork, and the continuity of the interior arches with the design of those on the exterior.

2. Yankton Sacred Heart School school website

Context There appear to be three school buildings and perhaps additions as well - we want to concentrate on the 1922 Prairie School building by Steele, but some on the others. How do they relate to each other, and to the church?

Composition: I don't have a good sense of how this is composed, but the same ideas as Hartington.

Exterior: think about the same ideas as Hartington, except there may be a hip roof and eaves below it to capture. Groups of windows might be important. Steele's chimneys are sometimes special. Brickwork!

Interior: probably not an option, but always excellent - large rooms such as a gym, library, or auditorium in particular. Stained glass?

3. Charles Mix County Courthouse Great photo without copyright clearance!

Context Flat? Hill? What's around it? Wikipedia often misses the context shot.

Composition: We'll want to illustrate the projecting bays that don't reach roofline, other volumes that are independent or more likely do what architects call "interpenetrate" and what that reveals (if anything) about the interior functions.

Exterior: same ideas as Hartington. Individual windows, groups of windows, the rows of pilasters frontal, at an angle, vertical and horizontal, and particularly the terra cotta capitals on them. Chimneys? Brickwork - this appears to be made of Roman brick (yes, the same dimensions as the Roman Empire), which is particularly long and thin and emphasizes the horizontal, and probably has that differential mortar work. Finally, there might be a water table, which would be near the ground, perhaps between the concrete foundation and the brickwork. A water table would extend somewhat out from the vertical wall above it, to throw water off the building. I've found a water table is best photographed at an angle a small distance from the wall but along its length, perhaps from a corner along the entire wall, to capture that the small horizontal change from wall above, moving out, is illustrated at some length. I usually have to stoop or kneel to get down close enough to it. It would be good to capture the foundation/brickwork transition anyway, but a water table would be very exciting. Frank Lloyd Wright used them during this period, but I haven't seen one on a Steele building so far.

Interior: might be possible, depending on the hours and so forth. There is probably a rotunda or atrium with a dome (Steele loved domes) to get light down from above into the building. Expect to see beautiful stained glass, terra cotta, friezes, panels, and woodwork details.

4. Susan LaFlesche Picotte Memorial Hospital

Context This is apparently on a hill, perhaps at the edge of town? What's around it?

Composition: This is American Craftsman rather than Prairie School, so not so much form follows function. Probably focus on the relationship of the porch to the rest of the building - a side shot, perhaps? Good luck!

Exterior: This is a fairly plain building, and the shingles and siding are not original, so perhaps harder to imagine what to focus on. I think the key architectural element is the porch and the series of columns supporting the arches. The gabled dormer is a focus, both alone and how it's positioned in the center of the building - I think it's both front and back, and perhaps a side shot could capture that if the angles are favorable. The exposed rafter tails are under the roofs at the low end, where the rafter simply continues beyond the wall. The braces are on the gabled sides of roofs, supporting the wide eaves. There is apparently a service entrance to the lower level on the east side?

Interior: I don't know what's possible. I think at least some of it is a museum, which vary in their policies. But perhaps it's possible. There was an operating room that had lots of exterior windows, and that would be good to illustrate. Kitchen and dining hall in the basement? Transom windows? Staff quarters up in the dormers? And what's going on there now?

5. I found a new one - St. Agnes Academy in Alliance, Nebraska. I've never been to Alliance, but I think that's where Carhenge is? The best photo I've found

This appears to have been designed by Steele, built in 1923, and located at 1104 Cheyenne Avenue. The lintels above the windows, a possible water table, and the cornice near the roofline are what I see from here. There is likely an entrance, perhaps with columns on each side and possibly a distinctive light fixture. There are probably several buildings or additions involved from older and more recent dates.

Hooray! --Frankie Rae (talk) 02:22, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

Thanks—I think this is going to be lots of fun, and I expect to learn quite a bit in the process. (That's not difficult, since I didn't know just what a "pilaster" was.) I appreciate your going into all this detail, and I hope that your effort pays off with good pictures from my camera.

I'm going to be out of state for a while, but expect to be in the Alliance area in about three weeks, so I'll try to hit St. Agnes. I'll let you know when I start uploading pictures.

You've made a good point about context. I keep intending to upload at least one picture showing the building in its setting, but often forget until just after I've cropped the photo close and hit "Save".

--Ammodramus (talk) 15:24, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

Awesome! Let's start a new section when you start uploading, shall we? --Frankie Rae (talk) 17:54, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

Another Nebraska photo opportunity

6. Ammodramus, I found yet another, if you're interested. Saints Peter and Paul Catholic School - now Butte Community Historical Center and Museum.
here's a photo if you scroll down a little
It's in Butte, Nebraska, , which isn't far from Lake Andes, SD. Built in 1909, it's a very early Steele building, before he was doing much Prairie School. It's at 721 First Street, Butte, Nebraska.
Context: This was originally part of a set: frame church, rectory, and school. But the church and rectory have been replaced in 1969 and 1990, respectively. Even so, probably worth getting a shot of the group if possible, and perhaps a few of the two new buildings and whatever else is around.
Composition: This is a Renaissance Revival building, which I'm less familiar with. It appears to be remarkably simple in composition, although there is a storm cellar in back.
Exterior: Some of the windows in back have apparently been bricked in, and that would be worth a photo. The other windows apparently have distinctive arched brick window hoods immediately above them. It probably doesn't have a water table, but worth a photo at the ground/foundation line anyway. Other ideas might include the groupings of windows, the little belfry/cupola on top, the dormers in the half-story, cornerstone, and always the brickwork.
Interior: It might be possible to get inside photos as well - it seems to be a museum or something. The web says "The Museum is open for tours by appointment. Call Mardell Schroeder at 605-384-3509, Jane Brewster at 402-775-2534, or Karen Knepper at 402-775-1215." Inside, the oak woodwork, central stairwell, chapel, and attic dormitories would be ideal, plus whatever else interests you.

On another note, on all these buildings, if you have a GPS, it would be handy if you could acquire latitude and longitude as close as possible to the front doors of each of them. I've seen mistakes in the available coordinates, and for a few of these I haven't been able to even find them.--Frankie Rae (talk) 03:18, 6 August 2010 (UTC)

Thanks—when I get to Boyd County, I'll pay particular attention to that building.

Have you found the Nebraska State Historical Society's NRHP sites page? They're in the process of putting nomination forms for Nebraska NRHP sites online, and they've got them up for a number of counties already, Boyd included.

I don't know to what extent you're interested in Prairie School generally, as opposed to Steele buildings specifically; but the Albert and Lina Stenger house in Columbus, Nebraska (Platte County) is described as "an impressive example of the Prairie architectural style" on the NSHS website. The nomination form doesn't appear to give the architect's name; it was built in 1907, which is considerably earlier than the dates on most of the Steele buildings you've gold me about.

Re. coordinates: I don't have a GPS, but I can get coordinates using Google Earth. I put them on a lot of my photos in Wikimedia Commons, generally using the "Object location" template. I've noticed that some of the coordinates on WP's NRHP sites are incorrect or, almost as bad, ambiguous—one house in Nebraska was given coordinates that placed it right in the middle of its street, so I didn't know whether it was on the east or west side, and accordingly whether to try to photograph it in the morning or in the afternoon.

--Ammodramus (talk) 16:31, 6 August 2010 (UTC)

Good ideas. Yes, it's delightful that Nebraska State Historical is putting these on the web! Every state should follow suit!

Yes, Prairie School generally, along with a few other 20th Century styles such as Usonian and Streamline Moderne. Steele actually got into Prairie School later than most—he was building them when Frank Lloyd Wright and Chicago had already "moved on" to other things. Now that you've pointed out the Stenger House, I looked at it and it appears lovely. But at the moment I'm prioritizing Steele and Wright, so I'll pass on that one for the moment.

Brilliant! I hadn't thought to use Google Earth that way! An excellent idea!

--Frankie Rae (talk) 13:20, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

St. Agnes Academy

Water table?

Recently returned from my Panhandle expedition, in the course of which I took a number of pictures of St. Agnes Academy. They're now edited and uploaded, and in Commons:Category:St. Agnes Academy.

I wasn't able to get inside the building. I exchanged a few e-mails with the principal, but nothing came of it; and when I was actually photographing the building and he came charging out to investigate, he rather pointedly did not invite me inside. Somehow, I think he wasn't fully persuaded that this photography business wasn't part of a scheme to snatch an infant Catholic or two.

There's been a lot of construction around the building. The east side appears to be more or less untouched. There's a new structure on the north side that looks like a stairwell. The entire south side has been sheathed in a corrugated metal, with the addition of what looks like a stairwell or elevator. On the south side, the building connects with the Holy Rosary Parish Center, apparently of recent date. The west side doesn't appear to be much altered, but a brick vestibule has been added at the south end of the west side. There's a limestone slab with "St. Agnes Academy" over the vestibule's exterior door. Peering through the door's windows, I could see a very plain entrance cut through the original brick wall, with no sign of decorations or the like. I suspect that the original entrance was on the north or south end of the building, and has been obscured by additions. I couldn't find a cornerstone or other indicator of the construction date.

I've categorized the photos and the overall category according to location and function, but not according to date or to any architectural features. Could I ask you do to that? The category and all the photo files are on my watchlist, so with luck I'll learn something from your work on them. The same holds with the descriptions of the individual pictures: I didn't actually have to resort to phrases like "horizontal stone thingum" or "pointy whatsis", but my descriptions might be less than completely descriptive...

Speaking of which, is the horizontal stone thingum at right a water table (architecture), or would that require it to project beyond the bricks below?

Please subject this collection of photos to lots of constructive criticism: what's good, what's unnecessary, and what's lacking. It'll probably be a while before I get back to Alliance; but I'll do my best to implement your suuggestions when I get to Butte or Cedar county.

--Ammodramus (talk) 21:53, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

These are great! I'll need to study them in some detail because this is a building with much less info available than I'm used to. Yes, you correctly identified the water table! Some of them project, but many are like this one and simply divert the water away from the building while then continuing straight down, encompassing a new wider dimension for the building. The sky appears luxuriously blue; I hope that means good weather and not scorching heat. Sorry about the (overly) concerned principal. I've had one experience like that while trying to photograph a building, and it also involved a concern (obviously misplaced) that children might somehow be in danger. I left rather disconcerted, trying to explain myself with only some success.

I'll put this inviting work aside for a bit since I'm in the middle of an article on one of Steele's churches. But this is very exciting and I'll let you know if I notice things to keep in mind for another architecture-heavy outing with your camera!

--Frankie Rae (talk) 17:08, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

Hope that the new article turns out well. If you get the chance and inclination, let me know when it's done. I think I learned something about Prairie School from your edits to Dr. Susan LaFlesche Picotte Memorial Hospital—enough to spot some Prairie-ish elements on a building at Chadron State College.

Speaking of Prairie School, I'm writing this from the library in McCook, Nebraska. It's mid-afternoon, and I got some shots of the Harvey P. Sutton House with the light in the southwest, which I'll try to upload in the next few days.

--Ammodramus (talk) 21:40, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for your wishes. My limited experience is that articles are harder and take longer than I want them to.

Harvey Sutton House in McCook

I'd love to see your photos of the Harvey Sutton House; I've wanted to see it for years. My impression is that the house is less visible than one might expect for one on the street. Was it possible to get close enough to see the water table? --Frankie Rae (talk) 21:14, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

Belatedly, I've edited, uploaded, and categorized my latest batch of photos of the Harvey Sutton house. They're up with the older ones in Commons:Category:Sutton House (McCook, Nebraska).

I took a few photos of the garage, although I don't know if that was part of the original design. It's not mentioned on the NRHP nominating form, but the form is a fairly old one, and might be a little incomplete—I think they were a little more casual about such things back then.

I also got a shot of the chimney, motivated in some strange way by your remark that Steele's chimneys were often of interest. Are there any details of interest that you think might be visible from the street, and that I haven't got? I will be in McCook in a little over a week, with camera. I'm going to try for a better picture of some windows, since they're specifically mentioned in the nominating form. Let me know if there's anything else that I should try to get.

Hope that your forthcoming article on the Steele church is going well. I sympathize re. the time and effort that it takes to write an article; I recently spent several days of eye-straining finger-cramping effort on an article that barely got beyond stubhood.

--Ammodramus (talk) 22:52, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

You have taken excellent photos of the Sutton House.

The lamp is an excellent choice. It's not likely original, but still good to illustrate a sympathetic choice. I doubt if the garage is original, but it's also sympathetic.

Your instincts on the chimney were good ones. The point on Wright's Prairie School-era chimney design is to try to capture the exaggerated horizontality (horizontaliy is a word the architectural historians use, even if it is a made-up one). I suspect that what you've taken is the best you can, but usually a straight-on profile would be ideal, especially with the roofline a little above or a little below to see all the horizontal lines parallel.

Yes, the windows are cited in every source, so close-ups of the art glass in them and each band of windows together. I'd also get a close-up of the veranda on the south side. There is a distinct water table base, but I don't know how visible it is. Perhaps the only place is the south side of the veranda?

There's a balcony on the upper level in the northeast, although hidden in leaves. Is it possible to photograph it?

The photo that's not at all obvious is a major structural change. The northwest corner is entirely new, and should be illustrated. There was nothing north of the dining room or west of the kitchen. Your photo from the SW 1 shows a low one-story expanse there, but it's in the shade. I think you might be able to get a close-up, and perhaps a little clearer shot, now that you know that's an important addition. It apparently includes a laundry and a second stairway to the basement, but the critics seem to think it's not too bad for a change in a Wright structure.

Nice work! --Frankie Rae (talk) 02:41, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for the comments and suggestions. I'll be down in the McCook area for several days starting today, and while I won't be particularly close to the city, I'll run in more or less daily. I'll try to time some of my treks into town to catch the Sutton house in different lights and get some of the pictures you asked for.

The northeast balcony and the northwest addition are likely to be very difficult. A straight shot from the northwest is impossible because of the garage; and the neighbor's garage almost touches that to the north. (For what it's worth, the neighboring house is the boyhood home of Senator Ben Nelson.) From the northeast, there's a large and dense tree in the way. If nothing else, I'll look the situation over and see if there's any hope of a better shot when the leaves have fallen.

The same might be true of the water table. If it's where I think it is, then the best bet would probably be to wait for winter and hope that the plants in front die down enough to make it visible. I assume that the sloping step near the ground on the veranda is a continuation of it; I also assume that we want the water table on the main body of the house itself, and not on the veranda.

Will see what I can do: if nothing else, I should be able to get some closeups of the east and south windows, and I'll see if I can't get a horizontal shot of the chimney.

--Ammodramus (talk) 13:46, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

OK. "The falling leaves drift by my window." Good idea: sometimes a mild early winter leaves the sky blue and the grass still green but foundation plantings and tree leaves out of the way. And sometimes it's just gray and snowy. Enjoy!

--Frankie Rae (talk) 23:58, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

Back from McCook, and the latest batch of photos of the Harvey Sutton House is edited and uploaded.

Luckily, one day during my stay was cloudy, so sunlight-shadow contrasts weren't a problem. It also meant that reflections in the windows were less troublesome, so I tried to get close-up shots of a number of those. In the descriptions on Commons, I've added links to other photos, which I hope will make it fairly easy to determine exactly which window or windows a given picture shows.

I tried to get the northwest addition, but that was almost impossible. I think the only way to get a decent shot of that is to be in the backyard.

I think I've got the water table reasonably well. Again, I've linked to photos showing wider views of the house from similar angles.

I shot the roofline from across the street. I couldn't get the whole house, because there's a line of small trees along the parking strip; I had to shoot between them. Foliage was also a problem with shooting the northeast balcony. I'll try to get back to McCook after the leaves have fallen and see if I can do better with those.

Hope your projects are going well. Might mention that I was checking your user contributions, and found your mention of WP:LDR. I hadn't known about that, and am very glad to learn of it: it looks like it'll make editing reference-heavy articles a lot easier.

--Ammodramus (talk) 21:49, 1 October 2010 (UTC)

Hi! I appreciate your working on Sutton. I'll look at your newest Sutton House photos in the next few days when I get a bit of time again.

Yes! I was very excited when I accidentally discovered list-defined references, and have been happily using them ever since! Much easier, especially as you say when they start piling up, as they did on my article on the Sioux City Municipal Auditorium.

My main project on the Steele-designed Prairie School church is going poorly. I have just little bits of time to work on it because of some intense deadlines at work, and right now I need several hours at a time to make much headway on most of what's left. So I'm finding little things to work on, including editing a Prairie School church in Minneapolis that I read up on for comparison purposes, and some Nebraska history items I was reading up on in preparation for St. Agnes School later on. It's all interesting, but a bit frustrating. --Frankie Rae (talk) 23:58, 1 October 2010 (UTC)

I love the new photos. The chimney is superb, nice illustrations of the art glass windows, you captured the balcony, and yes, great photos of the water table! When the leaves have fallen, a photo of the entire front facade would be good: several sources note its high level of symmetry. I'll slowly work on adding some of these into the article, but likely at a snail's pace.

Meanwhile, I notice in the article the text says: "Interestingly, a clone of this house, built from the same plans, bootlegged from the Oak Park Studio, exists at 502 W. 27th St., Kearney, Nebraska." That's in your neighborhood, I think. Is it worth a photo to show how similar it is? Thanks!--Frankie Rae (talk) 02:24, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for your kind comments on the photos. Please don't hesitate to offer criticism, if you think there's something that I could have done better. I'd very much like to become a better photographer of architectural subjects, and informed critiques would help me greatly that way.

The leaves are starting to fall in Nebraska, although it varies a great deal from tree to tree. There's some lovely fall foliage, too. I'll try to get back to McCook soon, and will see what I can do with both a straight-on shot of the front facade and with the northeast balcony.

I checked out the purported clone in Kearney some time ago. I don't remember exactly why I didn't photograph it; it may have been undergoing some kind of construction. I'll investigate it again soon.

Just returned from a run into northeast and north-central Nebraska. Had bad luck in Cedar County: there was a heavy overcast east of U.S. Highway 81 on the day I'd planned to photograph Hartington. Since there was clear sky to the west, I headed that way instead.

Got to Butte, and photographed the SS Peter & Paul School. Unfortunately, I didn't get there until the sun had passed the meridian, and the building faces east. Took a number of pictures anyhow, and will try to get them edited and uploaded before too long.

---Ammodramus (talk) 13:59, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

Harvey Sutton House redux

Just read the much-expanded version of the Sutton House article, and greatly enjoyed it. I've got a couple of minor issues with it, which I'll submit to you rather than on the article's talk page, since you've probably got the sources.

• Sutton "became an excellent musician in Chicago". This seems like editorializing to me. Wouldn't something like "became a successful musician" or "became well-known as a musician" be better?

• The purported clone house in Kearney (which I will photograph before too long). Is there a source for this statement? To my untrained eye, the house resembles the Sutton house, but differs in some major ways (in particular, it doesn't have the veranda). Is it possible that it was built from the plan published in Ladies Home Journal, or a modification thereof? Absent a source, I'd be inclined to delete the statement: it may have been inserted by an editor who noted the resemblance, didn't know about the LHJ articles, and concocted a tale of espionage to explain the situation

As I recall, both of these statements were present in the article before you revised it, so it's not really fair of me to ask you to investigate them. However, as I said, you've got the sources.

--Ammodramus (talk) 02:22, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

I'm glad you're enjoying it as it develops. I thank you for noticing the dangle. I had to think about it for some time wondering what was amiss (the way one does as the author of something), and then I got it and laughed out loud. Thanks!

Well, I added Sutton's Chicago musicianship, but I appreciate your comments, so I'll look into it and do something about it.

The clone comments were there before my additions, and I've found no mention of it so far. Yet it's oddly specific, so I wonder if there might be something to it. The LHJ design is not a likely source, since the LHJ design is not the Sutton House's modified cruciform with the hip roof across its entirety. But there could be other explanations. I think I'll retain it for now, but if the resemblance is not clear and I find no source for it, then I agree we should drop it. Or perhaps better you should actually initiate a discussion on the talk page to see if we can draw its originator back into the discussion, especially if you can include a photo and note its relative lack of similarity?

I don't think we have our context photo yet. What is the neighborhood like with the Sutton House in it? For example, as I read about the Sutton House, I keep seeing references to it being on a hill above town. I've never been to McCook and don't know what "hill" means in the Republican River Valley. Is it a gentle slope or something that could actually be captured in a photograph? I wonder if there might be a photo of the house from the south a block or two away that shows neighboring houses and rising elevation up to the house? Or a shot from the south side of the tracks or from the Amtrak station up Norris Avenue that shows the rise? (Unfortunately, I find, the station was built in 1925, after our house was built, but it has its own Wikipedia stub article and could use an illustration if you find yourself so moved.) Or perhaps this "hill" is so gentle there's nothing really to see?

I also note that there's a bandshell in Norris Park. It was built in 1917, although extensively remodeled in the 1930s. I don't know if a photo of it might illustrate the CB&Q Railroad Concert Band? Or if it's in too bad disrepair to show anything? I gather from the McCook Gazette that the city council plans to do work on it soon.

Finally, there's quite a lot about the entrances on the south side of the house. The original entrance was at ground level into the east wing (reception room) and up a few stairs, while the door under the veranda roof was originally elevated and constituted a more private entrance into and out of the living room in the center to the south of the central fireplace. Then the medical clinic filled in the side main door and everyone went in through the veranda door. I gather the newest residents have restored the side main door, and I can see that it is in some of your excellent photos. I don't know if it's possible to get a photo that focuses on the two doors side by side, since there's likely going to be a fair amount of text about two doorways. The lighting will be tricky, I imagine, since the cantilevered overhang shades the living room door intensely.

Well, now I need to get back to these deadlines at work. Thanks!--Frankie Rae (talk) 17:08, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

Sorry about the work situation—we could all get a great deal more editing done if it weren't for that.

Found another dangling participle while looking up an internal link for the McCool Junction, Nebraska article today. It's in Greased_pig_chase#Controversy; and for my conscience, I have to admit that I enjoyed it so much that I couldn't bring myself to fix it.

The bandshell in McCook is definitely suitable for photos, though it faces north. I'll try for it the next time I'm back there. I'll also see what I can do with the two doors; maybe I'll get another overcast day when the shadow of the overhang won't be a problem.

Will see what I can do with the context shot. Topographically, the hill is tolerably high and steep, at least by Nebraska standards. However, the steepest part seems to crest around E Street, about a block south of the Sutton House. The pictures at File:McCook, Nebraska Norris from E 1.JPG and File:McCook, Nebraska Norris from E 2.JPG were taken facing downhill from about that point. By the time you get to F Street, the rise is fairly gentle. You can get some idea of the slope from this photo of the courthouse, which faces eastward on Norris just north of E. Certainly, there's no view out over the valley from the Sutton House (and the northeast balcony would be in the wrong place to afford one, even if the intervening trees and buildings were removed).

It's a poor substitute for a real context shot, but for what it's worth, the Sutton House is in the left background of this photo of the house next door to the north.

Will also get to the purported clone house soon; unfortunately, I've got an immense backlog of photos right now, and I'm still working through the batch I took yesterday. A recent serious downtown fire in Orleans, Nebraska persuaded me that it was important to get a lot of old downtowns photographed now, before they in their turn could burn down; which means that where I was taking three or four photos, I'm now taking twenty or thirty.

--Ammodramus (talk) 18:06, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

I won't be able to get to McCook for several weeks; but the purported clone house is within walking distance of my place, and I was able to hit that today. Photos are at Commons:Category:Kearney, Nebraska 502 W 27 St.

I'm not struck by the similarity to the Sutton House, although I might be misled by superficial things and overlook elements with real significance. I'll leave that judgement to you, who're better suited to make it.

The Kearney house appears to have undergone some modifications, at least on the east and the north sides. There's what looks like a poorly-painted plywood box on the east, visible in File:Kearney, Nebraska 502 W 27 from NE.JPG. The plywood continues on the north side, including the smaller bit to the west adjoining the garage (see File:Kearney, Nebraska 502 W 27 from NW.JPG). You can see the material behind the lamp in File:Kearney, Nebraska 502 W 27 W lamp.JPG, which is to the right (west) of the front (north-facing) door, and which to me looks like an attempt to match the outdoor lamps at the Sutton House.

There is a photo of what I believe to be the same house, although no address is given, in the Buffalo County historic buildings survey conducted for the Nebraska State Historical Society. The photo is on p. 89 (of the original document, not p. 89 of the PDF); the property's survey number is BF05-337. The Kearney library has a print copy, and the photo is much clearer in that. To me, there are many points of similarity with the north side of the 27th Street house: the thick pillar-like things at the corners with single small windows above them; the placement of the front door; the smaller thingum to the west of the main body of the house. There are differences in the first-floor windows, but that's one of the parts of the house with plywood modifications.

The historic buildings survey gives a date of c1940 for the house in their photo. If the date is correct, and if it's really the same house, then it's much more recent than the Sutton House.

I went through the revision history of the Sutton House article, and found the insertion of the clone-in-Kearney statement. Here's the diff. It was done by User:Viscount Flesym, who's apparently still quite active, and appears to have made a number of edits on architectural topics. I'm thinking of leaving a note at his talk page and asking about a source for the statement. Before I do, though, I'd like your opinion on the similarity or dissimilarity between the houses.

--Ammodramus (talk) 20:07, 21 October 2010 (UTC)

It just occurred to me that you might find it useful to look at the aerial photo of the Kearney house and compare it to the plans for the Sutton House. It's at 40.7024°N 99.0887°W / 40.7024; -99.0887. Ammodramus (talk) 20:55, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

I appreciate all the approaches you've taken. Yes, I agree on the p. 89 image, which of course would be many years later. The satellite photo doesn't even suggest the same footprint. I think you're on track on the "clone." It seems remarkably different, and not just superficially (although clearly there's that). Please go ahead with a note on the user page. I also put a note on the talk page saying I intended to delete it unless substantiated.

The greased pig dangling participle is priceless! --Frankie Rae (talk) 03:46, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

I've left a note at User talk:Viscount Flesym, with a request for a reply at Talk:Harvey P. Sutton House. With luck, there'll be a response. Ammodramus (talk) 13:09, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

What a thoughtful, tactful note you left Viscount Flesym. Thanks!

--Frankie Rae (talk) 00:05, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

SS. Peter and Paul School, Butte

Got my photos of the SS. Peter and Paul School in Butte uploaded. I took some of the church (cornerstone dated 1969) and tried to get some with multiple buildings. They're in Commons:Category:SS. Peter and Paul complex (Butte, Nebraska) and subcategories thereof.

I'll try to get back to Butte with the sun in the east before too many months have gone by, and I'll try to make arrangements to visit the museum and take pictures inside. With luck, it'll be easier than St. Agnes... Let me know if there's anything more you'd like in the way of exterior photos. Also, I think my explanations of where everything lies on the building are pretty good; but if there's anything that needs clarifying, please ask.

--Ammodramus (talk) 21:04, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

Excellent! Your photos are so uniformly good, I wonder if you routinely use Photoshop or some other package?

As far as exterior photos go, my only additional request on this would be a sizable patch of just plain brickwork. The bricks are a major feature of the structure, so I might want to use a photo just showing the so-called bonding pattern of the bricks. I don't know what's possible inside, but that's the next frontier. Thanks again!

--Frankie Rae (talk) 03:54, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

Hartington Municipal Building

Got my photos of the Hartington auditorium labelled and edited and uploaded. They're at Commons:Category:Hartington, Nebraska city auditorium. For auditorium-in-context shots, look in Commons:Category:Hartington, Nebraska; most of the photos there include the auditorium, and many the courthouse as well.

The only interior space I was able to get to was the lobby and the main auditorium. When I get back up to Hartington, I'll try to badger people at the city office to see if I can photograph the basement, the backstage area, and the spaces in the building's corners.

Let me know if there are any additional exterior shots that you'd like me to get. When I get back there, I'll try for a better photo from the northeast, showing the alley entrance to the passageway between the auditorium and the building to the north. I'll also see if I can get the row-of-pilasters shot that you asked for, but that I didn't think to take when I was up there.

Hope that work isn't proving too burdensome--

Ammodramus (talk) 01:15, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

These are superb. Too bad about the white infill, presumably added for energy conservation instead of windows. It must have been stunning in its original form. I also appreciate the excellent context photos. I see you've already added them to a few places. Excellent!

If you're ever back there, I have one request, one possibility, and an idea. The request once again would be an image of a significant patch of plain brickwork with no other features, to potentially illustrate the brick bonding pattern Steele selected for this building.

I don't know if it's feasible, but sometimes it's possible to illustrate the pilasters on these Prairie buildings by taking a photo at a pretty acute angle to the plane of the wall behind them. It can work to pop them out from the plane of the wall, and show them marching away from the camera (so to speak). But I see these pilasters are very high, and it might not work on this particular building. Anyway, it's worth looking at if you're there again.

My idea: could you tell if the fire department still uses this building? I have the impression from one source that they've moved out and have a nearby buildling. If so, a photo of that would be great. If they're still inside, of course a photo of fire equipment through an open door is always impressive. Thanks!

--Frankie Rae (talk) 04:08, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

Thanks, and hope that the pressure of work has abated for you. It's frustrating to have an article hanging because you can't spare the time to work on it.

I'll try for the patch-of-plain-brickwork shot when I get back to Hartington or Butte. About how large a patch would be best?

Incidentally, the photos I upload to Commons are all in public domain, which means that you're free to edit them yourself if you'd like, say, to crop one closer or to cut a patch of brickwork out from a larger photo of the building.

I tried for the pilasters from an acute angle, but couldn't make it work. The problem is the southeast and southwest corner elements of the building, which extend south of the wall with the pilasters. Those cut off the view of the pilasters if you try for an acute angle. You can see the problem at File:Hartington auditorium from SE 2.JPG. When I get back to Hartington, I can try for a long shot (like File:Hartington auditorium from SW 6.JPG, but standing further north). That'd cut off the lower two-thirds of the pilasters, but it might work for the uppermost portion.

The fire department and the city offices are no longer in that building. I'll try to get pictures of the new sites when I get back there. Unfortunately, that might not be until February.

I was afraid the pilaster shot might not work for that particular building. Oh, well! Thanks for trying!

A patch of brick might be 4-6 feet square. If I'm that far before you are, perhaps I'll crop one of the others.

--Frankie Rae (talk) 00:08, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

--Ammodramus (talk) 13:48, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

Harvey P. Sutton House: Kearney clone

I've been doing some work on Harvey P. Sutton House, and I see that you inserted a statement about a clone of the house in Kearney, Nebraska. Here's the diff.

Do you have a source for that? To me, the Kearney house doesn't closely resemble the Sutton house. Moreover, in the Nebraska State Historical Society's Buffalo County historic buildings survey, there's a photo of what looks like the Kearney house on p. 89 (of the original document, not of the PDF), which gives a date of c1940, much later than the Sutton house. The footprint of the Kearney house also seems to be different.

There are photos of the Kearney house at Commons:Category:Kearney, Nebraska 502 W 27 St, and photos of the Sutton house at Commons:Category:Sutton House (McCook, Nebraska). The Kearney house is at 40.7024°N 99.0887°W / 40.7024; -99.0887, if you'd like to look at the satellite photo.

There's a note about this at Talk:Harvey P. Sutton House, if you'd like to respond there. Thanks for your attention to this—

--Ammodramus (talk) 13:02, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

Yankton Sacred Heart School

Got my photos of Sacred Heart School in Yankton, South Dakota uploaded. Unfortunately, I took them a couple of days before I got your message asking for photos of large patches of plain brickwork, so I didn't get such a shot. They're at Commons:Category:Sacred Heart School (Yankton, South Dakota).

I've found what looks like bad news regarding the Steele school building. This year-old article in the Press & Dakotan says that new construction north of the church is intended to "replace the 87-year old Sacred Heart School building". Elsewhere in the article, they talk of the prohibitive expense of remodeling. They don't explicitly say that they intend to demolish the present school; but that's not much of a basis for optimism.

Unfortunately, I'm going to be out of Nebraska for a couple of months, and won't be able to get up there for more photos until I return. When I do, if the building's still standing, I'll try to contact the parish, learn their plans for it, and see if I can make arrangements to photograph the interior.

--Ammodramus (talk) 22:48, 5 December 2010 (UTC)

I appreciate the update. Nice photos of the corner stone and structure. I see that they've added a gym on the side and modified the window openings substantially already. No doubt it's an expensive building to maintain and heat. My building preservation tendencies and my interest in William L. Steele may wish that all of them were kept forever, but some of them are already gone and it's likely inevitable that some of those remaining will need to be replaced. Thanks for documenting what's there before its likely demolition.

I hope your absence portends a happy adventure and not something unpleasant!

--Frankie Rae (talk) 01:57, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

Progress on Sutton House

Happy to see that you've been able to work on the Sutton House article. I see that it's rated as a stub; had you considered seeking a re-rating, or were you planning to make further changes first?

If you're making changes, may I suggest one? I wonder whether it wouldn't be useful to move most of the material in the "Architecture" section to a position between "The Suttons build a house" and "Subsequent history". Chronologically, it seems reasonable to discuss the original Wright design before the later changes. A description of the original architecture would also help the reader appreciate the significance of fire damage, alterations, and restoration: for example, the first mention of the veranda in the article comes in the paragraph about the 1932 fire, at which point the reader doesn't have a sense of how architecturally important the veranda is. Similarly, it might be a good thing to tell the reader about the open interior plan and the art-glass windows before describing Donaldson's added interior walls and the Poores' re-installing of the windows.

Hope that your various projects and undertakings are going well—

Ammodramus (talk) 19:33, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

It's interesting you raised these points, because I've been pondering them as well. I'm not certain, but suspect that the article is about two-thirds or three-quarters done at this point. I think I'll wait on the rating thing until I'm farther along. There are a number of items left to integrate into the Architecture section, and then it'll be time to wrap up with a Significance section.

As to the question of how to order the material, I've been struggling with that. The tradition in architectural articles is to stick with this sequence: History, Architecture, Significance. But of course the trick is to use that framework and still have it be coherent. It's not obvious to me how to do it yet, so I will likely plod along getting the material pieced together and then figure out how to make it flow. But I appreciate your practiced eye on it!

Your time in South Carolina satisfying?

--Frankie Rae (talk) 20:56, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

Article on Barnes un-house

Currently working up an article on the McCook Daily Gazette in McCook, Nebraska. At the paper's website, found an article on the house that Wright didn't build for the Barnes family. If it'd be of interest to you, it's at "The 'Other' house -- Historical Society puts unbuilt Frank Lloyd Wright plans on display". Ammodramus (talk) 02:47, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

Wow! Very interesting! I'd love to see those plans!

--Frankie Rae (talk) 02:06, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

Hartington auditorium and Yankton Sacred Heart school

Got up to Hartington, Nebraska and Yankton, South Dakota today, and tried to get some of the pictures you'd asked for. Took photos of patches of plain brickwork, which I've got in the categories Commons:Category:Hartington, Nebraska city auditorium and Commons:Category:Sacred Heart School (Yankton, South Dakota). In Hartington, I also photographed the current fire hall, which is just east of the auditorium. I've got two pictures in Commons:Category:Hartington, Nebraska, one showing only the fire hall, and the other showing the fire hall with the auditorium in the background.

I tried to get the city offices in Hartington, but think I shot the wrong building. The building I photographed had "City of Hartington" on it, but didn't look like it was getting much use; and the city's website, which I consulted when I got back home, indicates that I was at the wrong address. Will try that again, hopefully soon.

--Ammodramus (talk) 03:30, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

The plain brick photos in each case are just right; they nicely display the bricks, mortar, and most importantly the bond. The photo of the new firehouse by itself is great, but the one with the auditorium behind it is even better! I think it always improves an article on a historic structure if it's possible to illustrate the replacement buildings, and that one does double duty by showing both of them together! Thanks!

--Frankie Rae (talk) 02:06, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

Yankton, McCook, and Iowa

Thanks for the responses. Some random questions about my forthcoming travels—

Uploaded the rest of my photos from Yankton, and in the course of so doing discovered that I'd unwittingly photographed a house designed by Steele, the Harold A. Doyle House. Photos are at Commons:Category:Doyle House (Yankton, South Dakota). Unfortunately, I only took three pictures: I didn't know about the Steele connection, and I was trying to hit a list of ten National Register of Historic Places sites in a couple of hours. If you're interested, I can try for more shots of the house the next time I'm in Yankton.

I've created a new category in Commons, Commons:Category:William L. Steele, and populated it with all the Steele buildings that I know of. If you know of more, you might want to add them to the category.

Some time ago, you mentioned that you might like photos of some sites in Iowa. Could you send me a list? I don't expect to find myself in the Sioux City area in the very near future; but it's possible, and I'd like to have a list of things to photograph if I do get there.

Hope to be in McCook within the next two weeks or so. Will look out for the photos you've suggested—the railroad station, the bandshell, the context shot of the Sutton house, the two doors, the roofline, &c. Is there anything else that you've thought of recently that I might want to shoot as well? In particular, if the museum still has the Barnes display up, and if they allow photography, would photos of blueprints and things be of any use to you?

--Ammodramus (talk) 16:55, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

Wow! I'd entirely missed the Doyle House. It's been difficult to piece Steele's oeuvre together, but I'm surprised I missed one on the National Register. Thanks!

I haven't thought of any other McCook photos at this point. The ones you have in mind are the ones I'm interested in at this point.

I'll work on the Sioux City and vicinity photos and post them soon-ish.

--Frankie Rae (talk) 17:56, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

Happy to have supplied you with something new re. Steele. Will let you know if I happen to find anything else with his name on it.

Went through Butte, Nebraska yesterday morning, so got a few morning shots of the SS. Peter and Paul School building there; my earlier photos were taken with the sun west of south, so the front of the building wasn't well-lighted. Got a few more from the east and southeast, and also a patch-of-brickwork photo. They're in with the rest at Commons:Category:SS. Peter and Paul Catholic School (Butte, Nebraska).

Hope to get to McCook soon. The museum's open Tuesday; might go then. Will let you know as soon as I've got more pictures.

--Ammodramus (talk) 00:37, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

Nice photos of SS Peter and Paul! The better light really shows it off. I particularly like your capturing the dormers and cupola, and of course love the plain brick photo. Excellent!

If the Barnes plans in the McCook Museum photograph well, that would be interesting, but I think that might be difficult. Good luck!

--Frankie Rae (talk) 17:15, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

Got to McCook yesterday. The trees are still leafless, and I think I have a fairly good shot of the Sutton House from directly south. Also got another shot of the northeast balcony; with no foliage to obstruct it, I was able to find a better angle than I had for my last one. Took a number of long-distance shots, one of which I hope will work for the context photo. Unfortunately, the house doesn't show up especially well in them, since it's still somewhat obscured by the leafless branches and twigs.

The bandshell photo didn't happen: it's being renovated, and is swathed in blue tarps and scaffolding. Will have to try that again later this year. Happily, it doesn't require things to be leafless.

Got some photos of the 1925 railway depot; also took a couple of shots of the railroad yards. They're in Commons:Category:McCook, Nebraska.

Hope that these prove useful; if you can think of something better, let me know, since there's a decent chance that I'll be in McCook again this spring.

--Ammodramus (talk) 23:50, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

William L. Steele in Sioux City, Iowa

Here are the promised Sioux City photo requests, understanding that they will likely take a long time to be done. Sioux City was William L. Steele’s base of operations for many years before he moved to Omaha late in life, so there are dozens of his buildings there. These include the magnificent Woodbury County Courthouse and the First Congregational Church (later Sioux City Baptist Church and now Iglesia Pentecostes Evangelica Principe de Paz). But below are my current priorities, beginning with one not even designed by Steele:

1. Sioux City Municipal Auditorium
Year: 1938-1950 Address: 401 Gordon Drive, Sioux City, Iowa
Comments: Designed by Knute E. Westerlind, a protégé of William L. Steele’s. This streamline moderne building was originally independent, and is now a part of the Tyson Events Center along with Gateway Arena, built in 2003. It would be good to get photos of the original building as well as how it relates to the new Arena. Architectural features include brickwork in the smooth brick walls, rounded corners, glass block windows, patterns of horizontal lines, openings that appear "cut into the building", relief sculptures of stylized Native Americans on the northern exterior, and a number of terra cotta panels on the southern exterior, each depicting a person involved in a sporting event. There were originally inscriptions above the entrances: the one on the east reads "There is No Greater Conquest Than That of Self", while the one on the west reads "Art at Its Highest and Nature at Its Truest are One", and if they still exist (not sure how the new Arena might have altered it) those would be good to photograph.

2. Holy Trinity Greek Orthodox Church (Sioux City, Iowa)
Year: 1926 Address: 900 6th Street, Sioux City, Iowa
Comments: The beautiful church edifice, designed by William L. Steele, was completed in 1925 or 1926. Steele used a dome, which was not only a Greek Orthodox symbol but one of his favorite devices. It’s on a hill, and there might be some good context shots showing its surroundings. Holy Trinity Church is listed on the NRHP. In February of 1996, a fire which gutted the church's interior. Repairs included a new altar, sanctuary, narthex, iconostasion, and iconography. Not sure what can be captured to illustrate the original building and the repairs?

3. Hubert H Everist House
Year: 1920 Address: 37 McDonald Drive, Sioux City, Iowa
Comments: This spectacular house is Steele’s residential masterpiece, inspired by Wright’s Robie House but in a less restrictive site. There are hundreds of details to consider. The roofline from all sides, the chimney, the way the house is snuggled into its hilly site near the park, the extensive pergola extending the roofline away from the house, the leaded glass in the windows, and even the little brick gateways. I don’t know if it’s possible to get close enough to photograph the brickwork, but I understand it has the full Prairie School wide mortar that’s deeply raked for its horizontal joints and narrow mortar flush with the brick for the vertical, in order to emphasize the horizontal lines.

4. Shore Acres Boat Club (later Shore Acres Ballroom now Sioux City Community Theatre)
Year: 1911 Address: 1401 Riverside Boulevard, Sioux City, Iowa
Comments: Designed by Steele to replace the original club that burned, the building was built on the original brick foundation but only one story high – don’t know if foundations can be captured by photo. Used as a dance hall until 1965, it was purchased the following year by the Sioux City Community Theatre. The theatre holds 438 seats in its raised seating area providing an unobstructed view of the three-quarter thrust stage. The mezzanine area provides seating for 250 people. Over the years the building has undergone constant remodeling to upgrade and maintain the building. I don’t understand the architectural details very well, so can’t advise much on what to photograph.

5. St. Boniface School (later Holy Family School now possibly closed?)
Year: 1924 Address: 700 W. 6th St., Sioux City, Iowa
Comments: The Romanesque St. Boniface Catholic Church (Sioux City, Iowa) and its rectory predate Steele, and it would be good to have some photos of those as part of the complex (and if you’re interested, filling out the Wikipedia image record). In 1924, the school building was designed by Steele and constructed, later remodeled in 1956. Holy Family School opened in 1987, which was a consolidation of St. Boniface, St. Joseph and the Cathedral of the Epiphany's schools in Sioux City. Diocese of Sioux City does not list either St. Boniface or Holy Family among their schools in 2011. Sources note the strong horizontal lines in the school, including concrete coping and long bands of windows, and three decorative arched windows, and those should be captured. Apparently it has been much altered, reducing its architectural appeal.

6. St. Boniface Residence and Heating Plant
Year: 1924 Address: 515 Cook St., Sioux City, Iowa
Comments: At the same time the school was built, a residence and heating plant was built (a single building with both functions). A few straightforward photos should suffice. The tall chimney of the heating plant is thought to complement the church steeple, so it would be great if it’s possible to capture the two of them in the same image.

7. Northside Branch Library (now Bruce Meyer Productions)
Year: 1929 Address: 810 29th St., Sioux City
Comments: This was the third library in a set of three designed by Steele. This one moved away from his Prairie School style to the Tudor Revival style then in vogue, apparently because the public no longer accepted the Prairie style very well. Tudor style usually features steeply pitched multiple rooflines, half-timbering, and decorative brickwork. It’s on the NRHP, now as Bruce Meyer Productions, a photography studio. (Bruce Meyer Productions http://brucemeyerproductions.com/default.aspx). This building appears to be next to a park, so there might be good photos from a variety of perspectives around it.

8. Florence Crittenton Home and Maternity Hospital (also known as Crittenton Center) designed by Steele as part of Beuttler & Arnold, Beach & Steele
Year: 1914? Address: 1105-1111 28th St., Sioux City
Comments: This complex appears to have been constructed in several stages, and I think Steele designed the 1914 hospital segment only. 1906 construction of the building located at 1105 28th Street was completed, and services expanded to include care of neglected children under the age of three. In 1914 construction of the Steele-designed Maternity Hospital, adjacent to Florence Crittenton Home was completed. In 1928 the Maternity Hospital was sold to the Methodist Hospital (now part of St. Luke's Regional Medical Center (Sioux City, Iowa)) for use as a Nurses’ Training School, and that might still be its function. Uncertain how the complex is currently being used. Added to NRHP in 2000 as #00000306.

9. James P. Newton House and Maid Cottage
Year: 1909 Address: 2312 Nebraska Street, Sioux City, Iowa
Comments: This is an American Craftsman style bungalow with a main house plus cottage behind, originally for the maid now rented out. I haven’t seen this bungalow, but Craftsman style residences typically feature a rustic chimney and stone piers on either side of the front door, dormers above, and exposed rafter tails (the ends of the rafters under the roof), which might be the details to attend to.

10. National Guard Armory (now Boys Club)
Year: 1912 Address: 823 Pearl Street, Sioux City, Iowa
Comments: The brick exterior is mostly original (so brickwork is key), though it has a substantially remodeled interior. In 1968, Boys Club rented the Armory Building and in 1970, the Boys Club purchased it and named it after Jesse E. Marshall, a local attorney. Renovations in 1971 and 1997.

11. Fishgall’s/S.S. Kresge Dime Store (formerly T.S. Martin Department Store now Karlton's and more)
Year: 1910 Address (several addresses) 515-521 4th St and 409-411 Nebraska Street, Sioux City, Iowa
Comments: I think this consists of several storefronts in downtown that have been somewhat joined together. One of them is probably Karlton’s now, plus likely other neighboring stores, but not sure of current occupants (if any). Photo of the entire structure would be best, if possible, perhaps from the corner of 4th St and Nebraska, plus architectural details such as brickwork, windows (especially upper floors), cornices, quoins (the stone blocks inserted into the corner of a brick structure), etc. The entire structure, including the 409-411 Nebraska Street annex, was placed on the National Register of Historic Places in 1998.

12. St Vincent's Hospital (now part of Mercy Medical Center)
Year: 1917 Address: 6th and Jennings, Sioux City, Iowa
Comments: I think this building is close to Holy Trinity Church. It’s now a small part of Mercy Medical Center, which was the eventual result of St Vincent’s merging with St Joseph’s Hospital. The new building was built 1979-1982, adjacent to the Steele-designed St. Vincent's. This website shows a photo, and I think the Steele-designed St Vincent’s Hospital portion is in the upper left, north and west of the new construction (http://www.siouxlandchamber.com/files/chamber/page/major_employers/mercy.jpg) Brickwork will be important, as well as the stone coping and details. Not sure if there’s an accessible cornerstone. The pitched roof on the entry way would be good to capture, if possible.

13. Mount Sinai/United Orthodox Synagogue (classroom addition)
Year: 1920 Address: 1320 Nebraska St., Sioux City, Iowa
Comments: Not sure what this building is being used for currently, if anything. The United Orthodox congregation was established in 1956 and closed in 1987. The building had previously been built for Mount Sinai Reformed synagogue, who built the original pre-1900 Queen Anne Victorian building and added the Prairie School classroom addition in 1920. One source unflatteringly calls the addition the box car style of architecture. Good to have a few photos showing the entire complex, as well as some featuring just the addition.

14. John H. Kelly House (attributed to Steele)
Year: 1913 Address: 2501 Jackson St, Sioux City, Iowa
Comments: Built in 1913, this prominent Prairie styled residence was constructed for John Kelly, vice president of the Sioux City Tribune, and later president and general manager. The home’s design is attributed to the local architect William Steele. I have little info on the house itself.

15. Robert and Cynthia Deck Residence
Year: 1917 Address: 56 McDonald Drive, Sioux City, Iowa
Comments: I know little about this house. One author states this is a Steele-designed residence, but I have not been able to confirm that elsewhere yet.

16. Valley Drive House
Year: 1924 Address: 3100 Valley Drive, Sioux City, Iowa
Comments: I have little info on this residence.

17. Crane Company Warehouse
Year: c. 1914 Address: 3rd & Jackson, Sioux City, Iowa
Comments: Is this extant? I have little info on this beyond an image in the Pictorial History of Sioux City included on p. 23 http://freepages.books.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~cooverfamily/siouxcity/sioux_5.htm

18. Roth Fountain (recent homage to Steele’s Livestock National Bank and Exchange Building)
Year: 2005? Address: 4th & Virginia Streets, on the Promenade
Comments: This new fountain isn’t designed by Steele, but is related to him. The Live Stock National Bank & Exchange Building in Sioux City, Iowa was designed by architect William Steele in 1915, which included intricate terra cotta designs of steer heads, florals, geometic shapes and signage by George Grant Elmslie. Some of that terra cotta is now in the Sioux City Public Museum, saved after the building was mostly destroyed by fire in the winter of 1998. Fountain designers, Steve Blenderman, an artist, and Kirk Hoefling, a sculptor, had the idea of designing a fountain as an homage to the old building. They replicated the building’s bricks, finding a manufacturer in Tennessee, and used some of the building’s terra cotta, including four steer heads as water spouts.

19. Morningside Masonic Building (possibly Steele)
Year: 1920 Address: 4110 Morningside Avenue, Sioux City, Iowa
Comments: It’s not really clear if this is Steele or not. A brick structure with some details, some of them Masonic in nature.

20. Trinity College (and high school)
Year: possibly 1913? Address: 3075 Floyd Boulevard, Sioux City, Iowa
Comments: Steele designed the entire campus, but it’s apparently been torn down. There is some kind of monument on Trinity Heights that might be worth a photo, plus some sense of the vista from there for the buildings that once existed.
--Frankie Rae (talk) 19:18, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

Hartington City Hall and Auditorium

Take a look at the Hartington City Hall and Auditorium. I think it's shaping up pretty well, and your superb photos make an enormous difference. I hope to incorporate a few more of the photos before I'm done. Thanks!
--Frankie Rae (talk) 04:10, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

Very nice article—I'm delighted to see it. The text is interesting, and the composition of the page is attractive. I've made a few minor changes in the wording, which I hope you won't find objectionable.

One change I didn't make, but that I'd like to suggest, is in the fifth and sixth paragraphs of the "History" section: the two paragraphs beginning with "Known to work in a number of styles..." The verb tense struck me as a little awkward. As I read it, the first sentence is a statement that Steele was working in Prairie School at the time of the Hartington contract. The rest of those two paragraphs is background to that statement, describing his initial difficulties and subsequent progress in getting his clients to accept Prairie School designs. The next paragraph ("The leaders of Hartington...") brings us back into the main temporal sequence of the article, to the time of the Hartington contract again. Given that, I'd be inclined to combine the two background paragraphs into one, and to keep the verb tense in past participle; something like

Known to work in a number of styles, Steele had recently been concentrating on the Prairie School style of architecture originally developed by Frank Lloyd Wright and others inspired by Sullivan. Upon first arriving in the region, Steele had been unable to convince any of his clients to try his progressive designs. However, beginning with his Prairie-influenced Ben and Harriet Schulein House (Sioux City, 1913), he had begun tentatively moving in the Prairie School direction. His skill with Prairie Style designs and his success in promoting them to clients had increased markedly as a result of his three-year collaboration with Minneapolis-based architect George Grant Elmslie. With Elmslie as principal designer, and with some assistance from Elmslie's partner William Gray Purcell, Steele had erected the Prairie Style Woodbury County Courthouse (Sioux City, 1915-1918). About 100 miles (160 kilometers) northwest in Lake Andes, South Dakota, Steele had designed the Charles Mix County Courthouse (1916-1917), also in the Prairie Style. Steele’s success in selling these designs is particularly noteworthy since the style was in decline by this time, having lost ground rapidly to a resurgence of more conservative styles after about 1914, and particularly after World War I.

I am currently in Norfolk, Nebraska, and had planned to see what the local library had on Cedar County for a couple of forthcoming articles on unincorporated communities (Bow Valley and Menominee). Is there anything you've been trying to find about Hartington that I might be able to try and look up for you? There's a decent chance that I can find a locally-produced centennial history or the like, which might contain information that you haven't found in other sources.

--Ammodramus (talk) 17:34, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

I'll have to study your suggestion, but your ideas are generally excellent. Thanks for catching yet another of my dangling participles!

I don't know what you might be able to find, but there were a number of points I wanted to learn about but couldn't:

1. I couldn't find any floorplans, which always improve an article on a building.

2. Voters approved two bond issues totaling $50,000, yet the total cost was $65,000. How was the final $15,000 financed?

3. The original bonds issued were passed in 1919 at a point of great prosperity. I assume the city was still paying them off during the 1930s in the midst of the Great Depression. Was that a hardship? Were there recriminations? How did they do it?

4. What activities filled the auditorium? I can find references only to the most general categories, rather than news about an exciting basketball game for a contending team, or a particular musical performer, a theatrical production by one of the local high schools, etc.

5. When did the National Guard move its armory out of the basement? Why and where is it now, or was it consolidated with some other unit?

6. When did the fire house move next door? Why and how did that happen? How was it financed?

7. The city offices have moved. Why and how did that happen? How was it financed?

8. There appear to have been several round of renovations (such windows filled in, door cut into south side, doors filled in), and I'd love more detail on when, what, why, who.

If you find any of this, that would be great. Meanwhile, good luck on your article! I know that Bow Valley is mentioned in a number of accounts of the Omaha's time in the area; I think maybe they had a major village there. Thanks!

--Frankie Rae (talk) 20:57, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

Will see what I can learn about these. I don't expect to get to Hartington on this trip, and I'm not sure if the Hartington library would have back copies of the local papers—it's probably too small to have a microfilm reader. If nothing else, will keep this in mind the next time I get to Lincoln, where I can hit the state historical society.

Regarding your third point: Hartington's timing was actually worse than your question suggests. High agricultural prices during WWI launched a bubble in farmland prices, and lots of farmers borrowed to acquire new land, mortgaging their old property as well as the new purchases. When European farm production resumed and the demand for food imports from the U.S. fell, the bubble burst. I haven't looked into the matter in detail, but I get the impression that the general prosperity of the 1920s wasn't shared by the agricultural sector.

I'll let you know what I can find out about your questions—

--Ammodramus (talk) 22:01, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

I didn't combine the two paragraphs in question, but I agree that a more consistent past participle strengthens that text, since it is a look back in time before resuming, as you suggest. I'm not combining them because the Woodbury County Courthouse is such a turning point and because the images fit better that way, but I can see your reasoning for doing so. I really appreciate your thoughtful suggestions along with your superb photos. You are quite an asset to any article!

--Frankie Rae (talk) 01:46, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for tackling the "tone" thing; I didn't know how to proceed. Nice work!

--Frankie Rae (talk) 00:59, 2 September 2011 (UTC)

Hope that I wasn't too heavy-handed. I tend to have strong opinions about English prose, and if not restrained can be a bit aggressive about implementing my ideas.

The editor who left the "tone" template really should've included some suggestions in the talk page. The only thing mentioned was the "architectural gem" business, and that was in the edit summary. (I'm sure that it would've been fine as a properly-footnoted quote, but without that it looked like an insertion of editorial opinion.)

Unfortunately, I left northeast Nebraska without getting to the Norfolk library to try to find a local Cedar County history and look up some of the things you suggested. I haven't forgotten them, and will try for them when I'm next in that part of the world.

--Ammodramus (talk) 01:21, 2 September 2011 (UTC)

DYK nomination of Hartington City Hall and Auditorium

Hello! Your submission of Hartington City Hall and Auditorium at the Did You Know nominations page has been reviewed, and there still are some issues that may need to be clarified. Please review the comment(s) underneath your nomination's entry and respond there as soon as possible. Thank you for contributing to Did You Know! — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 22:17, 7 August 2011 (UTC)

DYK for Hartington City Hall and Auditorium

Thanks from the active members of the DYK project Victuallers (talk) 16:03, 13 August 2011 (UTC)

Nice catch on "slopes downward"! So obvious I couldn't see it!--Frankie Rae (talk) 17:34, 22 August 2011 (UTC)

Susan Laflesche Picotte Hospital

I recently got to Walthill and tried to get some of the photos you'd requested of the Dr. Susan LaFlesche Picotte Memorial Hospital. The new photos are up at Commons:Category:Picotte Hospital.

There was no sign that the hospital was being operated as a museum, and when I got back home and checked online, the things-to-do-in-Walthill site didn't make any mention of it. I'm afraid that if there were plans to develop it as a museum, they never panned out; or if there was a museum, it's closed. That being the case, I wasn't able to get inside at all.

I tried to shoot the dormer, which, as you suggested, extends onto the west side as well as the east. Unfortunately, there's a very dense hedge to the west that completely obscures the building from that direction. It's already lost all of its leaves, but the branches and twigs are thick enough to hide the hospital. Unless the owner decides to cut down the hedge, there'll be no photographing the building from the west. The west extension of the dormer is poorly visible in File:Picotte hospital from SW 1.jpg.

Got up to Sioux City yesterday and spent the day tramping the streets with my camera and your list of Steele buildings. I was delighted with the Woodbury County Courthouse, although I hadn't thought that Prairie School "allowed" that much ornamentation; took a number of photos of that, since I think there're only two pictures of the building right now at Commons. It'll be several days before I get all of my Sioux City photos edited and uploaded and categorized; I'll get back to you as I post them.

--Ammodramus (talk) 01:52, 1 November 2011 (UTC)

Have started uploading and categorizing. So far, I've got Commons:Category:Holy Trinity Greek Orthodox Church (Sioux City, Iowa), Commons:Category:Mt. Sinai Temple (Sioux City, Iowa), and Commons:Category:Roth Fountain (Sioux City, Iowa). More forthcoming. Ammodramus (talk) 16:33, 2 November 2011 (UTC)

Later: added Commons:Category:Sioux City, Iowa 3100 Valley Drive. Not far from there, and just around the corner from McDonald Drive, found a house at Commons:Category:Sioux City, Iowa 2600 E. Solway that looks very Prairie School to my untutored eye. It's not on your list, but since it looks so very Prairie to me, and since it's right in a neighborhood where Steele designed at least three houses, I'll call your attention to it on the chance that it's a Steele house you didn't know about.

Photos of the two McDonald Drive houses are forthcoming, but they'll be disappointing. 56 McDonald Drive faced generally northward and had lots of trees around it. 37 McDonald Drive was even more densely surrounded by trees; moreover, there was orange scaffolding in front of it, and the street itself was being torn up. I took a few poor photos, but will try for better, and for context shots, when there's not so much construction going on. Ammodramus (talk) 04:10, 3 November 2011 (UTC)

Still at work on editing and uploading; now have Commons:Category:Crittenton Center (Sioux City, Iowa) and Commons:Category:John H. Kelly house (Sioux City, Iowa).

Should note that I investigated the corner of 3rd and Jackson, seeking the Crane and Co. warehouse. There was nothing at any of the four corners that wasn't of fairly recent date. If you want, I can photograph the new buildings on the corners when I next get to Sioux City, just to document that the warehouse is apparently gone. Ammodramus (talk) 03:03, 5 November 2011 (UTC)

Continuing work on the backlog of photos. Have now uploaded Commons:Category:Bruce Meyer Productions (Sioux City, Iowa) and Commons:Category:St. Boniface complex (Sioux City, Iowa). More to come, although I may be away from the Internet for a few days. Ammodramus (talk) 13:38, 5 November 2011 (UTC)

Found myself in north-central Nebraska this afternoon; realized that I was only about half an hour from Lake Andes and the Chas. Mix County Courthouse, and that the light might be good for photographing a north-facing building. Went there. Got photos. That's 40 more in the to-be-edited-and-uploaded queue... Ammodramus (talk) 00:33, 6 November 2011 (UTC)

Commons:Category:Charles Mix County Courthouse is now up. Unfortunately, since I hadn't planned to go to Lake Andes when I started out today, I hadn't reviewed your suggestions for photos of the courthouse. However, I'll have to return there after the equinox so that I can catch the building when the north side is sunlit; if there're things that need to be photographed, or photographed better, please let me know. Ammodramus (talk) 03:29, 6 November 2011 (UTC)

Water Table on Charles Mix County Courthouse.

Wow! This is an extensive collection! The Picotte Hospital photos are very clear, even if we can't get much of that dormer. I'm sorry the building appears to not be in use. Isn't the Woodbury County Courthouse marvelous? The ornamentation in Prairie School (always art glass or terra cotta) is from the Louis Sullivan edge of Prairie style (as against the Frank Lloyd Wright), in this case showing up via George Grant Elmslie, Sullivan's long-time assistant, who did most of the design in association with Steele and William Purcell.

I've seen the Holy Trinity Greek Orthodox Church and Mt. Sinai Temple when previously in Sioux City, and I think you captured them well. The Roth Fountain is new to me - what a curiosity!

You're right, 2600 E. Solway has a lot of Prairie characteristics, particularly the hip roof and corner windows. Interesting that it's close to 3100 Valley Drive. I'll see what I can do to check on 2600's origins. I'll have to study the Crittenton Center and John H. Kelly House photos more, but you did a good job on the former library now Bruce Meyer Productions. I'm particularly impressed with the St. Boniface and the Charles Mix County Courthouse photos, though! In both the characteristic Steele look shows quite plainly. And there even appears to be a slight water table on the courthouse!

At this point I don't think we need to photographically document the absence of the Crane & Co. Warehouse, at least unless we at least know which corner to look at. Thanks for looking into it and establishing that it is in fact gone.

I've been working on Henry Hobson Richardson lately, who influenced both Louis Sullivan and Frank Alden, both of whom Steele worked for. I figured the best way for me to understand Richardson better was to work on improving the article, and I'm gaining practice with a list of works, which I eventually hope to apply to Steele.

Thanks!--Frankie Rae (talk) 17:44, 8 November 2011 (UTC)

Away from the Internet for a few days, but back online again now; and have resumed work on editing and uploading. Commons:Category:Sioux City Municipal Auditorium and Commons:Category:Sioux City Boys Club building are now up. With respect to the former, note that I've made a separate category for the 2003 arena: Commons:Category:Tyson Events Center (Sioux City, Iowa). If you think that the categorization could be improved, please feel free to do so.

Thought that the business at the base of the Charles Mix courthouse looked water-tablish, but lacked the courage to name the photos thus. Back when you first asked me to photograph it, you remarked that it'd be exciting to find a water table on a Steele building; but that was before we saw the one on St. Agnes in Alliance. A second one might not be so exciting... Incidentally, I think it shows reasonably well on the pictures, but the Charles Mix courthouse doesn't have deeply indented horizontal mortar like the Woodbury County courthouse had.

Still more Sioux City photos to edit and upload. Didn't get everything on your wish list, and there are buildings that need to be re-shot under better lighting conditions. I'll probably try to get back to Sioux City in December; so if there's anything I missed or that you think could've been better done on these buildings, please let me know. --Ammodramus (talk) 22:34, 11 November 2011 (UTC)

I haven't forgotten or abandoned the remaining Sioux City photos in my edit-and-upload queue, although other subjects have elbowed their way to the front of the queue ahead of them in this past month or so. Finally got Commons:Category:St. Vincents Hospital (Sioux City, Iowa) uploaded and sorted. There's an overview shot of Mercy Medical Center, including St. Vincents, in the parent category, Commons:Category:Mercy Medical Center (Sioux City, Iowa).

I should be back in northeastern Nebraska before long, and will try to get back to Sioux City with camera. Let me know if there's anything on any of the buildings that I've photographed so far that needs re-doing. I'm going to see if I can get some better shots of the Tudor former library, with the leaves entirely gone and perhaps on a cloudy day (since the building faces north). Otherwise, however, I don't expect to re-visit any of the currently-uploaded sites unless you've got a request. --Ammodramus (talk) 15:07, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

Sounds great, Ammodramus! In more recent digging, I find that the 1906 building of the Crittenton Center was the one designed by Steele with his original partner W.W. Beach. But you have good photos of that one as well, so I don't see anything you need to retake. Enjoy your journeys! --Frankie Rae (talk) 18:12, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

Sioux City, Iowa

(To User:Farragutful) I notice that you've recently made some edits to National Register of Historic Places listings in Woodbury County, Iowa, and created an article about the Badgerow Building and the Warrior Hotel in Sioux City.

If you're planning to work up a set of articles on Sioux City sites, I expect to be up there with my camera within the next month or so (at the request of User:Frankie Rae, who's been working hard to improve our coverage of buildings by William L. Steele). If there are specific buildings that you'd like photographed, please feel free to leave a list at my talk page. If there are particular aspects of buildings that want to be shown, suggestions would be welcome. Ammodramus (talk) 16:50, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for the offer. I'm writing an article right now on Augustana Lutheran Church at 600 Court St. (NRHP listed as Swedish Evangelical Lutheran Augustana Church). Another might be Sioux City Baptist Church at 1301 Nebraska Ave. I'm finding conflicting information on that one right now, but it is a Steele designed building so maybe someone else has better information and will write it. I'll add to the list if I know of any more for sure. Farragutful (talk) 17:10, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

Will put the Badgerow Bldg, Warrior Hotel, Augustana Lutheran, and Sioux City Baptist on my to-be-photographed list. If the last is by Steele, you might be well advised to contact Frankie Rae, who seems very well informed about him and might have the information needed to reconcile your conflicting sources. Ammodramus (talk) 17:16, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

Seeing I've been invoked, I'm joining this conversation. I've been working on and off on an article about the Steele-designed Prairie School church at 1301 Nebraska. Originally built as the First Congregational Church, later sold to the Sioux City Baptists, and most recently the Iglesia Pentecostes Evangelica Principe de Paz. There's quite a bit of contradictory information about it, and I've been working through it slowly. Was there something in particular you were puzzled by? --Frankie Rae (talk) 03:28, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

Will definitely try to hit 1301 Nebraska on my next trek to Sioux City, which I hope will be later this month. Are there any particular features of the building that I should try to shoot?

Incidentally, I've finally posted my photos at Commons:Category:T. S. Martin and Co. department store (Sioux City, Iowa). I still haven't finished editing my pictures of the Woodbury County Courthouse, but I haven't forgotten it. Ammodramus (talk) 05:09, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, I've been battling a cold and haven't been online much the last several days. The Badgerow Bldg has a plethora of decorative elements including Indian heads, entryways and the rooftop level. The Warrior Hotel also has a variety of terra cotta decor that would be nice to capture. Augustana Lutheran is a nice church overall, but I'm not sure if there is anything in particular that you need to focus on.Farragutful (talk) 19:08, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

That cold has been going around!

The church at 1301 Nebraska reminds me of Steele’s later Hartington City Hall and Auditorium you photographed so beautifully, and it clearly influenced the Hartington building. Both feature the crisp rectilinear lines of the Prairie School, somewhat awkwardly combined with Romanesque round-headed windows, and the church has a dome on top of it. I tend to call it First Congregational Church Sioux City, since that’s the name that Steele designed it under. It’s an accident of timing that the Sioux City Baptists happened to hold it for the few years that corresponded with it gaining NRHP status, and they left not that long after.

It’s located at the corner of north-south Nebraska Street and east-west 13th Street. The primary facades are east and south, not surprisingly, facing those streets. I suspect that photos from the southeast showing both facades would be the key, basic view. If you have time beyond that, here’s what I can tell from a distance.

The east façade includes the formal entrance, and it’s a Prairie School masterpiece. A straight-on shot is essential, but I don’t know if you can get enough elevation to see the dome as well from there. Other key aspects include the coping with brick bands just below them, four piers (two engaged and two freestanding) that hold up an enormous lintel with the words "Blessing honor glory power be unto Him", a wrought iron gate on and hanging lamp within the deeply recessed porch, and the two bays on each side with stained glass windows. The piers are the most important. Each has a capstone and just below it has five bands of bricks (similar to Hartington) that work harmoniously with the whole ensemble, and close-ups of the tops of the two free-standing posts would be good.

The south façade has three sections: sanctuary in the center (with the dome above) and wings to each side. Photos of the entire façade and each of the three sections would be good. The four piers that frame the central three stain glass windows of the sanctuary are key features, and it might be possible to get an angle where they pop out of the flat wall behind them. At the top of the building there’s coping with brick bands below similar to Hartington. The stain glass windows were thought to be nice, but I don’t know what shape they are in or what’s covering them now, and what’s possible in terms of photos. They have rounded hoods and decorations around them, and those might be important.

The dome is odd but important. Steele didn’t engineer it well enough and it leaked, and the Baptists put some kind of white waterproofing treatment on it that makes it even more at odds architecturally with the rest of the building than it was originally. It had windows in it, but I think they are sealed up now. I don’t know what’s possible in terms of close-ups of what’s left. The base apparently is octagonal, but I don’t know if you can get enough elevation anywhere to photograph it. Maybe from the old Central High School (a giant Richardsonian Romanesque structure which itself is on the NRHP)?

A big patch of plain brick should show the pretty Roman bricks in common running bond (similar to the Woodbury County Courthouse) facing the steel framework.

I don’t understand the west or north sides well enough to advise what might important. It’s possible that the curved choir loft sticks out to the north? Or Steele might have hidden it, which Frank Lloyd Wright and the other more fastidious Prairie School practitioners would fault him for.

It’s unlikely, but if you can get into the sanctuary, there are (or were) apparently terra cotta decorations on the walls and ceiling, beautiful woodwork and grillwork, curved pews, a deeply curved choir loft, and the interior of the dome with stain glass above. I’ve heard it’s in rough shape now, but don’t know much more than that.

I don’t know what’s possible in terms of a long context shot. It’s at the ridge of the slope coming up from downtown, and I don’t know if that can be captured. Central High School will likely block it from the southeast, but perhaps it’s possible from the southwest, say from Pierce Street at 11th or 12th Street?

I understand this is an extensive program, and you might not get to all of it. Many thanks for putting your photographic skill to work in whatever way is possible!--Frankie Rae (talk) 18:22, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

It may have been rainy and unpleasant when you uploaded them, but it looks as though it was a lovely day when you took them. They capture the Woodbury County Courthouse well. For someone who claims to have no architectural background, you have a knack for this! Thanks!--Frankie Rae (talk) 18:38, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

More Sioux City

(To User:Frankie Rae) I got up to Sioux City a few weeks ago and spent a day there with my camera, trying to get some more of the photos you'd requested. Editing and uploading them is going to take some time, but I've made a start on it. I've added a few photos of the Roth Fountain, and of the Tudor Revival library that's now Bruce Meyer Productions; it was a gloomy winter morning, which was excellent for shooting a north-facing tree-surrounded building like the latter. Happily, the clouds cleared off by late morning, so I had sunshine to shoot a lot of the other buildings.

Was down in McCook a few days ago, and got a couple of pictures of the bandshell in the park; think you'd suggested that these might work in the Sutton House article. They're at Commons:Category:Norris Park (McCook, Nebraska).

Will keep you informed as I upload; I'm currently editing First Congregational photos, but it'll be a while before they're done. Beautiful building, even to my untrained eye. Ammodramus (talk) 22:32, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

—Have uploaded Commons:Category:First Congregational Church (Sioux City, Iowa). Upon looking through it, I see to my chagrin that I missed a number of photos you'd asked for, including the east gates and shots of the east and west wings from the south. Will put them on the list when I return to Sioux City, which I hope to do before too many months have gone by. If you see other photos that need taking (or re-taking; I'll try to re-shoot the inscription on the east lintel with better light), let me know.

Schulein house: water table?

I arranged to be in Sioux City on a Sunday, and hit the church 45 minutes before services were scheduled to start, hoping thus to find the church open but empty. The pastor and his staff were setting things up, and they were very obliging about letting me shoot photos inside. However, congregants started arriving and beginning their devotions very soon thereafter, and I felt that I was intruding; so I didn't get many interior photos. I didn't get into the west wing, but got photos in the central hall and in the east wing. The church isn't using the east entrance; people are coming in through the small door on the south side of the west wing. The pastor may be using the west wing as an office and possibly as a residence—the maroon SUV that shows up in the photos was there all day.

More photos of Sioux City to come, as I find time to get them edited and uploaded and categorized.

In the course of trying to find dates for some NRHP houses in the city, I happened onto the Woodbury County Assessor's website. This has a link under the somewhat misleading heading "GIS Mapping" for "Property Search"; from there, it's possible to enter an address and bring up a hatful of data about the place, including its construction date. This tells me that the house at 2600 E. Solway, which I mentioned to you in an earlier note as looking Prairie-ish and being in a neighborhood where Steele designed several other houses, was built in 1937. Just in case the information's useful to you— Ammodramus (talk) 03:31, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

Newton house: water table?

—Now I'm less sure about that date from the Woodbury County Assessor; that source informs us that the Schulein house was built in 1898. I've found a few other questionable dates as well.

Have uploaded most of my Sioux City photos, including Commons:Category:James P. Newton house (Sioux City, Iowa), Commons:Category:Sioux City, Iowa, 56 McDonald Drive (the Robert and Cynthia Deck house), and Commons:Category:Ben and Harriet Schulein house (Sioux City, Iowa). The latter wasn't on your request list; however, it was on my list of NRHP sites in Sioux City, and I remembered the Steele connection from the Hartington auditorium article; I therefore gave it a little more attention than I do to the usual NRHP house.

Found what I think might be a water table on the Schulein house. Also found a curious projection of the siding just above the foundation on the Newton house, and a similar one on the maid cottage; it looks like it might function like a water table.

I've still got to edit and upload the Everist house; however, that won't be done for several days. I suspect that the photos will disappoint—even on a cloudy day with the trees and shrubs leafless, it's hard to get a good view of the place. Ammodramus (talk) 02:53, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

These photos are awesome! Of course the church is the best. I'm tickled at the interior shots! The interior is in better shape than I'd feared, but the exterior shows its age. They appear to have decided to paint the stone coping, making it a little more consistent if a bit odd.

Yes, water tables come in a variety of forms, and these are two more. The shaped clapboard on the Newton is particularly interesting, don't you think? I love the way that the best of architecture combines beauty with functionality.

I may try my hand at stub articles for some of these. I've resisted that, but apparently it takes a long time for me to create the complete articles I like to author.

As I was working on background for the Florence Crittenton Home and Hospital, I reworked the article on Kate Waller Barrett. I was looking around the Commons for illustrations, and to my amusement found that you were the photographer of both the Florence Crittenton Homes: Sioux City, Iowa and Charleston, South Carolina. I laughed out loud! Thanks! --Frankie Rae (talk) 20:39, 9 April 2012 (UTC)

Commons:Category:Hubert H. Everist house (Sioux City, Iowa) is now up. I'm afraid that the photos will be a disappointment, and I'm not being modest. The house has an attractive setting, nestled in trees in the bottom of a hollow; unfortunately, those trees make it difficult to photograph. The yard around it is quite extensive, too, so a lot of my photos had to be taken with lots of zoom, and the consequent lack of crispness. I think the best chance to get decent detail photos would involve being in Sioux City for some kind of historic-homes tour. I'll Google for something like that when I find myself in the area, but I wouldn't be optimistic.

The article on the First Cong'l Church wasn't at all bad. I'm not at all fond of stubs myself—all too many of them are horrors like this one—but yours conveyed the impression that it was an interesting building, and told the reader why. With a few citations, I'd classify it as a "Start" rather than a stub.

Interesting that you happened onto the Charleston Crittenton Home photos. It was one of only half a dozen un-photographed sites in peninsular Charleston when I was there. Difficult building: it faces north, it's wide enough to be hard to get the whole thing in a photo, and there are live oaks around it (which are never leafless, so it's no good to wait for winter when more of the building is visible). Ammodramus (talk) 02:04, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

—Just tried Googling to see if there'd ever been tours of the Everist house, and found this article. It lists two Steele houses that weren't on your list: one at 52 McDonald Drive and one at 2507 McDonald Street. You mentioned that one source attributed the Robert and Cynthia Deck house at 56 McDonald Drive to Steele; I wonder if they got the address wrong, and meant the one at 52 McDonald Dr. You can see photos of both houses at the Woodbury County Assessor's website; to search for them, you have to type "Mc Donald" with a space: it returns a no-such-address message for "McDonald". Let me know if you'd like these photographed the next time I'm in Sioux City. Ammodramus (talk) 02:23, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

I tried once a few years ago to photograph the Everist House, with even less success. I like the idea of a tour, however unlikely. You managed to get some workable images, though. Isn't it an amazing place?

Sioux City is loaded with Steele buildings, only some of which I've been able to identify. During his years there he designed over 250 structures, although some were elsewhere. I'll bet both 52 and 56 McDonald Drive are Steele's. Yes, I'd like it photographed. I haven't had a chance to look at the Assessor's website, but I'll be interested.

There are a number of Steele structures in Sioux City that I could point you toward, if you're up for it. You photographed Fire Station Number 3, which is a Steele. There's also the Carnegie Library in Armour, South Dakota, which I recently stumbled upon. [[1]] It's a contributing property to the Armour Historic District NRHP, which is apparently primarily residential. I gather that Armour isn't far from Lake Andes. It's interesting that Steele's buildings tend to pile up in clumps like that. There's also a barn at the Yankton State Hospital, which does not appear to be one of the structures you captured in your visit there. Heck, there's plenty for you to photograph if you're interested! --Frankie Rae (talk) 01:31, 14 April 2012 (UTC)

By all means, point me at more Steele buildings. I hadn't realized that Fire Station No. 3 was one; just added that to Commons:Category:William L. Steele. That brings the category up to 27 subcategories and one file, so we're about 10% done... Ammodramus (talk) 22:24, 15 April 2012 (UTC)

Progressive architecture

(To User:Frankie Rae) Read with interest the new article on the Schulein house. I thought you were being too modest in calling it a stub, so I've uprated it to Start-class.

One thing that bothered me a bit about the article was the importance of "progressive architecture" in it. The phrase is never explained, and as far as I know there's no article to which to Wikilink it. The term might have a specific meaning for someone with an architectural background, but for the rest of us it doesn't convey a great deal. Would you consider adding a sentence or two briefly explaining how progressive architecture differs from otherwise architecture? Thanks.

Oh, and: I assume you got the coordinates in the infobox from the NPS database, using the Elkman tool or something similar. Some of those coordinates are pretty bad—for example, the ones for First Cong'l Church put it somewhere north of 20th Street, and the ones for the Schulein house landed on the border between it and the neighbor's yard. I've tried to put correct coordinates, based on Google Maps or Google Earth, at the Commons categories for the various buildings I've photographed; I think they're better than the NPS's. Ammodramus (talk) 21:27, 13 April 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, it's a problem. A number of the basic architectural articles are missing or could use some improvement, and its always hard to know what to do when all one really wants to do is refer to them. But your suggestion of trying to boil the concepts of progressive architecture down to a sentence was useful if challenging.

Thanks for correcting the coordinates. I simply pulled them from the National Register of Historic Places listings in Woodbury County, Iowa, naively thinking them correct. --Frankie Rae (talk) 01:31, 14 April 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for the added explanation in the article. I think it helps; otherwise, the use of "progressive" might look like a statement of editorial opinion rather than a recognized architectural term. Ammodramus (talk) 22:13, 15 April 2012 (UTC)

St. Agnes Academy redux

(To User:Frankie Rae.) Spending a rainy morning in the library in Alliance, Nebraska, where I hit the local-references section and found A History of St. Agnes Academy, Alliance, Nebraska, 1908–1989, compiled by Sister Coronata Manion, OSF.

Unfortunately, a skim doesn't turn up the name "Steele" anywhere in the early part of the work. Whatever Steele's reputation in the early 20th century, nuns of the late 1980s apparently weren't aware of it.

According to Sr. Coronata, construction began March 1, 1908, and the school opened for boarders and day pupils in September 1908. The cost of this first stage of building is given as "about $35,000". Of this sum $15,000 was a bequest from Agnes McNamara Pope, sister of William L. McNamara, who was the pastor of Holy Rosary Parish; the school was named St. Agnes in her honor. Enrollment by the end of 1908 consisted of 89 day students and 12 boarders, all girls. (Boys were first admitted in 1925.)

A second wing, described as "48 by 100 feet, three stories and basement, [which] cost $30,000" was begun in late 1910.

In September 1917, there wasn't enough room for all applicants; 110 boarders were accepted and more refused for lack of space. Wartime shortages precluded expansion at that time. In 1921, "the Sisters at St. Agnes felt that the time had come to build the third wing which was part of the original building plans. Apparently these plans had called for a larger building, but this would necessitate closing a street and nearby residents objected. The plan was cut down to confine the new addition to the block in use." Work on the new wing had begun by May 1922; it was dedicated in May 1923.

Time doesn't allow me to go through all 273 single-spaced pages, dense with sports events, Christmas pageants, and Outstanding Teen Citizens. A quick scan near the end of the book (which, notwithstanding the title, appears to end in 1983 apart from listing graduates through 1988) doesn't turn up any account of the alterations to the north and south ends of the building. It's possible that I just missed them; or that they occurred after 1983.

I've photographed the first part of the book, and can consult that if you've got questions about the early history or would like page references. Ammodramus (talk) 16:33, 25 May 2012 (UTC)

Awesome! I've been making slow progress on St. Agnes Academy, and am waiting an interlibrary loan of History of the Catholic Church in Nebraska by Henry W. Casper that I hope might include some information. Your find is perfect and this is filling in some big holes, even if you can't get through every page! This structure is not on the NRHP (probably because of the late alterations), so sources are a little thinner, and no one at the school seems to understand who designed the school, let alone have any information. But this design dates to before he had much of a reputation, so I guess it didn't make much of an impression at the time. Were the Sisters of St. Francis of Penance and Christian Charity still involved with St. Agnes as of 1983? I haven't been able to figure out when (or even if) they left, but they don't appear to be associated with the school at this point. Yes, I'll want page citations and have more questions as I think of what they are. Or might your scans be e-mail-able (if that's a word)? Thanks!

--Frankie Rae (talk) 02:44, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

Unfortunately, my "scans" are photos: i.e. very large JPEGs. I photographed the title page and the first 39 pages, running through 1929. (Two of them are illegibly out of focus; but I don't think there's anything especially important on them.) I could e-mail them, but they take up 80+ MB, so I'd probably have to send them in several installments. I'd use a Gmail account, which limits me to 25 MB; if you'd like me to send them, let me know if your e-mail imposes a stricter limit on what you can receive.

While looking through them this morning, I discovered a passage, apparently speaking of about 1908–09: "The city was also building its first public high school at the same time, with the same architect; it was finished about a month after St. Agnes". If this building is still extant, I assume that it's been extensively altered; the Nebraska State Historical Society's historic buildings survey for Box Butte County says that no schools in the county are potentially eligible for the NRHP.

If you haven't found it, the Alliance Herald is available online through the Library of Congress; a search turned up an article about the completion of the first part of the school (Jan. 29, 1909, p. 4), including a photo; an advertisement for the school (Jan. 29, 1909, p. 7), including the same photo; and an article about schools that included a photo of what I assume is the Steele-designed Alliance High School (May 27, 1909, p. 6). Unfortunately, the LOC's search utility, in a misguided effort to be helpful, returns results for "steel" when one searches for "steele", even when the name's put in quotes; that only got me lots of "Carnegie Takes The Stand" articles. Searching for "william" within 5 words of "steele" for 1908–09 returned no results.

Regarding the Franciscan sisters, I assume that the "OSF" at the end of Sr. Coronata's name indicates that she's a member of one of the Franciscan orders. Her first paragraph says that the school "has been under the direction of one order of Sisters for nearly all of its existence". Since the sisters were there at the school's opening, I would guess that the "nearly all" means that they had recently ceased involvement with the school. However, that's no more than a guess. I'll try to look it up when I'm next in Alliance, but that might be several months from now. Ammodramus (talk) 17:45, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, go ahead and try e-mailing them to me. Thanks! --Frankie Rae (talk) 04:06, 1 June 2012 (UTC)

Just sent them off as four e-mails, each with 10 attachments. Ammodramus (talk) 19:23, 1 June 2012 (UTC)