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update on Esports - gambling related

Hi, Yes, I wanted to suggest to update the section about Esports and Gambling. It is inaccurate, as most of 'illegal sites' it is referring to are dated to 2005-2006 (when there were the biggest scandals related to CS:GO skin gambling). Nowadays, Esports betting is regulated in most of countries, reading that is 'illegal' or reference to black market, are simply untrue.

GFCapozzi I see. I think you may be right, but we would definitely need a source that says that "esports betting is regulated in most of countries" or "in most cases esports betting falls under the regulations that govern traditional sports betting". Do you have a source for that? If so, I think I can change some of the wording of that section. Alyo (chat·edits) 13:32, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

Hi, You haven’t continued the discussion on the wikimedia page for the logo, so I thought it’s completed now also no one ever debated any thing. Do let me know if i did wrong. Thanks Hums4r (Let's Talk) 07:00, 14 February 2021 (UTC)

Hums4r, this is the list of deletion requests made on the same day as Stalwart Esports Logo.png--as you can see, very few of the requests have much discussion and sometimes it takes nearly a month to finish the request. I've offered mu opinion on the page though--I believe File:Stalwart_Esports_Logo.png should be deleted because it has been incorrectly uploaded to Commons, and File:Stalwart Esport Logo 2020.png is fine. Why did you change the image on the article to Stalwart_Esports_Logo.png instead of using File:Stalwart Esport Logo 2020.png? Alyo (chat·edits) 17:29, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
Alyo as i said i thought it is suitable for wikimedia since it wasn't debated or deleted further so i decided to use the wikimedia one because all the pictures on wikipedia are used from wikimedia. thats why.
Hums4r, ahh, I see the confusion. Unfortunately no, I do not believe the file will be judged to be appropriate for the Wikimedia Commons. However, just to clarify, all the pictures of Wikipedia are not actually from the Wikimedia Commons. The Commons is only for images that are free, or where Wikimedia has the owner's permission. So for example, if you took a picture of Messi, you could upload that to the Commons and then anyone could use that photo on any of the various Wikipedias (english, spanish, french, etc). However File:Stalwart Esport Logo 2020.png is not free--it's a copyrighted image probably owned by the Stalwart Esports organization. So you can't upload it to the Commons. However, for those "non-free" images, you can upload directly to a specific Wikipedia project (which is what you did when you uploaded it to the English Wikipedia) and then it can be used on that Wikipedia. Does that make sense? Right now the file on the English Wikipedia has been uploaded properly, and there's no problem using it. But I'm pretty sure that the file on the Commons will be deleted soon. Alyo (chat·edits) 22:42, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
Alyo, Oh my bad, yes makes complete sense. thanks for assisting. Hums4r (Let's Talk) 12:20, 15 February 2021 (UTC)

Saquon Barkley

I have started the review for Saquon Barkley. I have it on hold as I saw that the nominator has only a few things they need to work on (which are sources). I have read the GA guidelines about reviewing articles. However, I’m not sure how to withdraw from the review. To do that, do I ask for a 2nd opinion or do I blank the status of the article on the GA nominee template? I for now have the review on hold. AlabamaFan101 (talk) 16:47, 24 February 2021 (UTC)

Hey AlabamaFan101, I left a note here since I'm not exactly sure either. Alyo (chat·edits) 17:01, 24 February 2021 (UTC)

Help

Will you please help me to get Stalwart Esports more strong on wikipedia so that no one can delete it I am ready to pay also Anjumaafi (talk) 19:52, 5 March 2021 (UTC)

Alyo, please beware this guy is misusing my name. ─ The Aafī on Mobile (talk) 19:55, 5 March 2021 (UTC)
Thanks for the heads up AafiOnMobile--I assume you've reported them already? Are all these users trying to recreate the Zeyan Shafiq article sockpuppets of each other or is this some sort of broader campaign? It's getting confusing to keep all these brand new users with the exact same edit type straight haha. Alyo (chat·edits) 20:10, 5 March 2021 (UTC)
This is a broader game lol. I'm personally not able to understand this. This account has been globally locked. ─ The Aafī on Mobile (talk) 20:12, 5 March 2021 (UTC)
Much appreciated. I'll try to keep an eye out on the articles as well, but let me know if I can ever help with all this. Alyo (chat·edits) 20:13, 5 March 2021 (UTC)

Omg lol, this is definitely someone trying to prove as if he is working for stalwart. Can we request protection for stalwart page to completely avoid these issues? It definitely shouldn't be an issue to post requests to edit the page via the talk page. Abhayesports (talk) 23:27, 5 March 2021 (UTC)

Regarding roster.

Hello Alyo, While i was exploring more of esports on wikipedia, I've found that majority of the organisation's have cited no sources for rosters for eg:- Fnatic's current roster. While i appreciate your concern for following wikipedia's policies strictly I've read that we can use primary sources for data which won't cause any problems. Suppose we can't use primary source to prove an statement in the biography of a living person but we can use primary source for his birth date to improve the accuracy of the article. Same would be the case with rosters just like what TSM has done, they've used their own source for the rosters section and it shouldn't be an problem. So I'd request you to re consider and process the roster addition to Stalwart's page so that it serves the most accurate information. Warm Regards. Abhayesports (talk) 23:09, 5 March 2021 (UTC)

Also just since i was exploring again and reading more policies and approach towards esport articles i couldn't find any proper document that could state the requirements or guidelines for an esport related article. Moreover I'd call you to have a look at most of the esport organisation articles, they have used personal or primary sources even for the lead or upper section to support things like their name and other things and i think it's completely fine, what do you think? Abhayesports (talk) 03:56, 6 March 2021 (UTC)

Hi Abhayesports, you're right that primary sources (like the tsm.gg example) are often fine for basic facts like rosters (although they do not help to establish notability). In this case, Stalwart's own site might be considered a similar source, and would actually be better as a roster source than sportskeeda. However, there's one other big difference between TSM/Fnatic and Stalwart. TSM's various esports divisions have been covered in many different sources, and their performances at tournaments are notable in and of themselves. So even though it may be easier to use TSM's own site as a citation for the rosters, editors could find other reliable sources for their rosters. The reason why Stalwart is "notable" for Wikipedia's purposes has much less to do with the success or notability of the roster and more to do with the coverage from that cross-border collaboration covered by Vice and the like--the actual competitive results are not covered by reliable sources. Stalwart's competitive activities have not reached a level where they are covered anywhere near as much by sources like these, and because of that, TSM isn't really a good comparison for having a roster on the organization page. Alyo (chat·edits) 19:06, 7 March 2021 (UTC)
Hey, Sorry for the late reply, I've been bit busy with the exams lately. You have explained it very perfectly. I'll close the request on the talk page and mention this response. Appreciate the clarification. Warm Regards Abhayesports (talk) 05:13, 12 March 2021 (UTC)

Liquipedia as a source.

Hey, Sorry for disturbing you again. But i wanted to ask what would be the correct venue for discussions related to esports and proposing new changes?. I wanted to propose liquipedia as a secondary or reliable source for wikipedia because it meets the requirements mentioned in WP:RS Signals that a news organization engages in fact-checking and has a reputation for accuracy are the publication of corrections and disclosures of conflicts of interest.
Liquipedia is just like wikipedia, Even if anyone makes any edit it isn't published to the page until the experienced editors review it. You can try editing any liquipedia page and it would clearly display that there's an pending edit that needs to be reviewed. Moreover Liquipedia has a strong notability guideline for creating article's for esport organisation's. Every team isn't posted onto liquipedia, teams only with credible and high achievements in major tournaments get their liquipedia page's. So i would suggest that if we could use Liquipedia as a source on wikipedia we can improve esport coverage widely. Do let me know what you think about this.
Warm Regards. Abhayesports (talk) 05:52, 12 March 2021 (UTC)

Citing any such-"pedia" is as much unreliable as citing "Wikipedia articles". User generated content. ─ The Aafī on Mobile (talk) 12:23, 12 March 2021 (UTC)
Hi Abhayesports, Aafi is right that I don't think Liquipedia will ever be viewed as a RS. It's a very standard WP:USERGENERATED content site, which are banned. When WP:RS refers to fact checking, it means a full editorial team that does follows journalistic ethics, not a team of volunteers who just try to make sure a public wiki is up-to-date. In fact, when you say "Liquipedia is just like wikipedia", you may not realize that Wikipedia would not consider a second Wikipedia to be a reliable source. That's why you can't cite other pages as sources when you are editing a Wikipedia article. So the similarity actually demonstrates why Liquipedia will never be accepted. I appreciate the question though. Alyo (chat·edits) 18:19, 12 March 2021 (UTC)
@Alyo:, I Understand but i'd like to tell you that if we don't add new RS for Esports, Indian Esport's would never be able to make it to wikipedia i guess. Anyways this was just my suggestion. Abhayesports (talk) 18:57, 12 March 2021 (UTC)
I understand that concern, but unfortunately that applies to many many topics. Wikipedia is not meant to be a repository of every piece of information, or sample of every subject area that exists. Indian topics have this issue frequently, as I've followed sourcing discussions even for some bigger Indian newspapers from previous articles that I've been active on. If you are still curious about sources about what can be considered reliable, check out WP:RSN. That's the noticeboard where those discussions happen. You're welcome to bring up Liquipedia there but I can already tell you what the result of the discussion will be. Alyo (chat·edits) 21:59, 12 March 2021 (UTC)

Question regarding logos of esport org’s.

Hi so i found an glitch or something like it maybe. If you search TSM or Cloud 9 or some more org’s in the search bar, you’d get an logo with their name. But if you do the same with Stalwart or Fnatic or Evil geniuses you don’t get the logo rather you get an book type image which probably means no logo i guess. Have you noticed this? And how should we correct this? Abhayesports (talk) 13:23, 14 March 2021 (UTC)

Abhayesports that's entirely a question for Google and it's search spiders haha, Wikipedia has no control over that. Alyo (chat·edits) 14:55, 15 March 2021 (UTC)
Alyo Nope, i am talking about on-wiki. Do you have a mobile device? Open en.m.wikipedia.org and type Tsm Or Cloud 9 in the search bar, you’d get their logo but if you do the same with Fnatic, Evil genuises and Stalwart. You don’t get the logo, you get a book shaped logo. Even though on google it displays the logo it doesn’t do that over wiki search. Toddy1 you got any clue about this?. Abhayesports (talk) 18:48, 15 March 2021 (UTC)
Ahh, I see what you mean. This is interesting, and I don't know the exact answer, but I do have a guess--TSM and Cloud9 both use free images in their infobox, while Stalward, Fnatic, and EG all have non-free images. I wonder if part of the minimal use of non-free images policy means not using those images in search. Alyo (chat·edits) 20:50, 15 March 2021 (UTC)
Alyo, I don’t think so because if cloud9 uses free images in their infobox then i guess we should follow the same with other articles, why to allow non free images. Without the proper logo it might confuse the reader to choose the article he is looking for. I’ll tag few more editors who might have an idea of this glitch.
@Toddy1:, @Cullen328:, @Firestar464:,@Nick Moyes:, Tagging y’all because you’ve helped me with earlier queries, does anyone know anything about this glitch and how do we report it to Wikipedia or how do we correct it. Warm Regards.Abhayesports (talk) 22:39, 17 March 2021 (UTC)
@Abhayesports: No I do not see what you mean. How it behaves on my computer seems unrelated to what you describe as happening. The search bar produces for TSM and for Stalwart Esports‎. No logos were visible in the search.-- Toddy1 (talk) 23:09, 17 March 2021 (UTC)
Toddy1, check on a mobile device, enter Cloud 9 in the search bar, and see it will appear with a logo and enter Fnatic or Stalwart or Evil Geniuses it will appear without a logo (just something like book).Abhayesports (talk) 23:13, 17 March 2021 (UTC)
Abhayesports, non-free images are displayed only when actually reading the full article. They do not display in previews of any type. For example, I share Wikipedia articles on Facebook frequently. If the article has free images, the lead image will display in the preview. If the article only has a non-free image, a placeholder displays. This is not a bug or an error. It is an aspect of Wikipedia's strict standards regarding copyright law. As for mobile apps, they are buggy and unreliable. I always use the desktop site which works fine on mobile devices. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 23:19, 17 March 2021 (UTC)
Cullen328, I am not talking about third party apps or websites like facebook or google. I am talking about search over wikipedia. Is there anyway i can share a screen record video or a screenshot. It’s hard to write it down here to explain.Abhayesports (talk) 23:36, 17 March 2021 (UTC)
I am not talking about third party apps, but rather the mobile site and apps developed by the Wikimedia Foundation. Non-free images should not display in any way, shape or form in any preview anywhere. They should display only in the full article. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 00:01, 18 March 2021 (UTC)
@Abhayesports: If you want people to look at and compare how specific pages on Wikipedia display, please link to each of them. I don't have time to guess what you're seeing, or to wade through descriptions of problems and attempt my own searches. Sorry. Nick Moyes (talk) 00:18, 18 March 2021 (UTC)

(←) Nick Moyes and Toddy1, Abhayesports is referring to the fact that when you search for wp pages on a mobile browser, pages with a free image in the infobox will use that image in the search, while pages with a non-free image will not. Abhayesports, as per my original guess and Cullen328's confirmation, this is a policy that must follow United States copyright law. It's not a glitch and it is not something that can be changed through discussion. Alyo (chat·edits) 04:40, 18 March 2021 (UTC)

Alyo, Sorry for the late reply again, but yes exactly this is what i meant. this is a policy that must follow United States copyright law I don't understand this, i mean Evil Genuises and Cloud9 both are american organisation's but one has free image and the other one doesn't. i mean could you please explain how does this work. Also Nick Moyes Alyo has shared the picture links below which might help you with it. Also it isn't just with the mobile browser. Check these 2 images which are on desktop version [1] . [First Search For Cloud9] This displays the Cloud9 Logo while as the Second Search For Evil Genuises It doesn't display the logo, the same applies to many esport organisation's Fnatic 100_Thieves Stalwart Esports etc. Abhayesports (talk) 10:19, 25 March 2021 (UTC)
@Abhayesports:, yes so that example on the desktop site is the same thing. Here's the problem. In the US (and I'm going to simplify a lot), we have a legal doctrine called "Fair use". Fair use means that you can sometimes use images, videos, texts, that other people own for very specific and narrow purposes. For example, Marvel owns the Avengers films, and if you reupload the entire Thor 2 film to youtube then you have violated Marvel's copyright on the movie, and the video will probably be taken down. However, if you want to make a review of the film, fair use allows you to use some short clips from the movie in your review. Even though that is technically still violating their copyright, fair use wants you to be able to show and describe what you're talking about, as long as you don't use the copyrighted material too much.
So without this law, Wikipedia would never be able to use any of these copyrighted logos. Without fair use, Wikipedia would only be able to use free images, or images where the owner had specifically given their consent to Wikipedia. However, to comply with the fair use doctrine, Wikipedia has policies in place to minimize the use of non-free images. For example, the rule of thumb used to be (maybe it still is) no more than three non-free images on a page, and if you've ever looked at a screenshot of a video game this policy is the reason why it's always small and low-definition. We're trying to use the copyrighted work as little as possible. An additional rule to minimize the use of non-free content is that they are only displayed when you're on the article's page, not in search previews. Thus, EG's logo, which is non-free, doesn't show up in search previews. Alyo (chat·edits) 13:38, 25 March 2021 (UTC)
Alyo, nevermind brother, i'm still very confused because how is it possible that Fnatic has a non-free logo while as cloud 9 has a free to use logo? I understood the Fair Use law, but i couldn't understand why Cloud9 is allowed to use the logo and Fnatic isn't? Abhayesports (talk) 13:55, 25 March 2021 (UTC)
@Abhayesports: Haha it's ok, it's a complicated topic. The cloud9/fnatic question is totally different: in order for a logo to be copyrightable, it has to be original/new/different than other basic shapes and logos. It's called the "threshold of originality". So for example, you can't draw the letter "S" and then claim you have a copyright over it, because then no one could ever use the letter "S" again. These are some examples of logos that American courts or the US Copyright Office have decided aren't original enough to be copyrighted. The cloud9 logo apparently falls into this category, because it's just the word and a very simple shape. The fnatic logo is a bit more creative, and so it seems they've been able to get a copyright on that. That's why theirs is non-free but cloud9's is free. Alyo (chat·edits) 14:11, 25 March 2021 (UTC)
Alyo, indeed very complicated for my silly brain to understand. but thanks for the clarification. appreciate it. Abhayesports 14:17, 25 March 2021 (UTC)

Trimming of the page

Dear Alyo, just an query.
I appreciate your edits on stalwart's page and help in trimming the FAN POV. While all your edits are totally justified there i have an small query. Does this line In February 2021, Stalwart Esports finished as runner up in the Pubg Mobile Club Open Pakistan Spring Split 2021 tournament earning $2300 and advancing to the Pubg Mobile Pro League South Asia S3 tournament. Does it serve as FAN Point of view? I mean this is more of an achievment and shouldn't it be in the page so that the readers could know about the organisation? This is just an query to understand FANPOV. I don't want you to add it back, i just want to learn more about this. Abhayesports 14:29, 25 March 2021 (UTC)

There's no hard and fast rule here, but generally lists of tournament results aren't included on Wikipedia unless the tournaments themselves are notable. Usually we think of those lists of smaller events as something that only a fan cares about. For example, this is what Pbrks mentioned in that esports cleanup discussion, fifth bullet point. For the purpose of cleaning up the Stalwart page, it also helped to be able to go directly from PMCO Fall Split to PMPL with Freestyle, since that makes the story flow better. Alyo (chat·edits) 14:45, 25 March 2021 (UTC)
Alyo, oh, Absolutely correct. Understood. Now i do have one more queries haha, Should an article be made on PMPL(Pro League) and PMGC(Global Championship)? Since they're considered as major's in the PUBG Mobile scenario and also boast a very massive prize pool, Also what are your views on Guild Esports? I was surprised to see no article on them here. Abhayesports 14:53, 25 March 2021 (UTC)
If you have the time, I would make a draft as you did for Guild, and collect the sources you can find and let me know and I'll take a look. I don't know the PUBG scene at all so I don't know what sources are available. For Guild, I definitely think that organization will soon be notable--I don't know if it is yet, but I haven't looked for more sources. Of the links you posted, the Forbes piece and the Esports Insider piece about the stock listing are good sources. The Subway source is a little more iffy, because it's more promotional in tone and may not speak to the organizations notability, and then I don't think the esports talk website is reliable. However, if this org is owned by Beckham then I'm sure more will be written about them very soon. Alyo (chat·edits) 15:05, 25 March 2021 (UTC)

Yes it is co-owned by beckham, that’s why i was shocked to not see the article haha. Anyways do let me know if you can contribute along. Abhayesports 20:37, 25 March 2021 (UTC)

Alyo, Hi, i'm working on removing the maintainence tag's from esport page's. I guess the issues have been resolved at Stalwart Esports but the PAIDCOI tag still lie's there. MrsSnoozy has edited the page as well and made it more neutral. I'd have rm it but it is against the policies of me directly editing it. So can you check it out? -Warm Regards--Abhay EsportsTalk To Me 09:35, 28 March 2021 (UTC)

I agree, I think the article is in a much better place now. Alyo (chat·edits) 20:55, 28 March 2021 (UTC)

Off-Topic

This is a very off-topic and silly question xD. You’ve written that you’re Semi-Retired on wikipedia and not that active but you look to be active here, i mean we interact almost everyday. Sorry if it is a personal question but i was just curious to know the reason behind it. You can certainly ignore the question if you don’t want to answer.-Warm Regards--Abhay EsportsTalk To Me 16:46, 27 March 2021 (UTC)

Haha yeah I should probably remove that. It's a holdover from the fact that I was extremely active from 2010-2012, and then almost completely inactive from 2013 to 2019. I'm still much less active than I used to be, but I suppose semi-retied may give the wrong idea. Alyo (chat·edits) 17:22, 27 March 2021 (UTC)
Alyo, True. -Warm Regards--Abhay EsportsTalk To Me 09:33, 28 March 2021 (UTC)

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Picture is hosted on Commons.

Hi, Look at this. This logo of Stalwart Esports should not be hosted on wikimedia commons i guess. But it is there. Why is it so? Stalwart Logo on commons -Warm Regards--Abhay EsportsTalk To Me 13:20, 1 April 2021 (UTC)

Yup, it's being discussed here right now, and if the result of that discussion is that it can stay on Commons, then you can use that image in the infobox instead of the one hosted on en.wikipedia. I'm not an expert on the threshold of originality, so I need other people to weigh in before I'm comfortable calling that a free image. Alyo (chat·edits) 14:05, 1 April 2021 (UTC)
Alyo, I'd Prefer tagging Pbrks, He has good knowledge over TOO. -Warm Regards--Abhay EsportsTalk To Me 20:13, 1 April 2021 (UTC)
I've left my thoughts on the discussion page. Pbrks (talk) 20:39, 1 April 2021 (UTC)

Check Guild Esports

Hey, ssup bro. Can you check Guild Esports and maybe add something in a proper format. I am researching more. It's a stub at the moment Warm Regards---Abhay EsportsTalk To Me 12:41, 3 April 2021 (UTC)

I'll keep an eye on it, but it's looking good! Alyo (chat·edits) 23:40, 3 April 2021 (UTC)

Thank You

Dear Alyo, thank you for once again intervening. I hope my tone has not been too strong; I am bumfuzzled by the actions of some people on this website. I had no idea another user could just go and delete my entire user page. Is there a way for me or someone else to restore it? Also, is there some sort of mechanism within Wikipedia to lodge a complaint against that user? I think their actions have been completely overblown, rude, and inappropriate. Thank you for your help. Cjslaby (talk) 15:04, 5 May 2021 (UTC)

Cjslaby Of course there is a way. Just read the guidelines and you'll find out what it is. Deb (talk) 15:09, 5 May 2021 (UTC)
Dear Deb, thank you for this helpful suggestion! I've actually got to run for a meeting, so since it seems you're aware of the relevant information, and of course you're here to make Wikipedia a better, more positive experience for everyone involved, why don't you share? Thank again! Cjslaby (talk) 15:22, 5 May 2021 (UTC)
Cjslaby I would love it if we could resolve this issue amongst ourselves before escalating anything--that will undoubtedly take away from more productive things that all three of us can be doing. Lets see what Deb says to my Q on their talk page. Alyo (chat·edits) 15:34, 5 May 2021 (UTC)
Fair enough. The ball's in their court. Cjslaby (talk) 17:40, 5 May 2021 (UTC)
Well, it looks like they're doubling down. What's the next appropriate step? My goal has never been to escalate anything; though resolute in my wording, I think my tone and reaction have been completely in proportion to someone else coming to my user page, modifying it, and then when I reverted that change deleting the entire page. Who do they think they are?! I can't believe their response, and to something so minor as me accurately representing myself in a bio on my own Wikipedia user page and linking to my Twitter account, which is my primary online presence. I'm not trying to sell anything and I gain nothing commercially, professionally, or personally by linking to my Twitter account, clearly. I can't believe I have to go through all this work just so that I can have my own (perfectly accurate and in accordance with the rules and guidelines of Wikipedia) bio on my own user page. I do believe in accountability, though; I'm tired of people in the world behaving rudely or inappropriately and then just getting away with it. I want my user page restored and I want whatever appropriate sanctions applied to this user. Again, though firm in my wording I have consistently used the established channels and protocols of Wikipedia to try to resolve this; that user is the one who has continued to escalate things and is refusing to take responsibility and fix this. I would very much appreciate your advice and help on where to go from here. Thank you. Cjslaby (talk) 18:44, 5 May 2021 (UTC)
Let me ask one other admin about this. Alyo (chat·edits) 21:32, 5 May 2021 (UTC)
Thank you. I've also initiated a conversation about this on the general help page, where someone has suggested the same thing that you have (i.e., give the user the opportunity to un-delete my user page). Of course I don't know what happens if that's unproductive, but I can be patient. I hope you don't mind me saying that this is frustrating, even with the help from people like you. (I guess it must be frustrating for you, too.) I would say, though, that this would be far more annoying and frustrating without people of goodwill volunteering to help, so I guess that's something to keep in mind. This website is like a microcosm of the human experience. Cjslaby (talk) 21:42, 5 May 2021 (UTC)
That's probably a better place for it--I'll leave a note there instead. As another user said, Deb really does deal with/cleanup a ton of sh!t every day and it's certainly frustrating that this couldn't have been cleared up so much sooner. Alyo (chat·edits) 21:57, 5 May 2021 (UTC)

Twinkle talkback settings

Hi! A recent change in Twinkle will now cause any talkback messages you send via Twinkle to be malformed. To fix the issue, go to WP:TWPREF and for the "Section heading to use for talkback and please see" option, remove the == == signs in the header. The equals signs aren't needed there. Thanks, – SD0001 (talk) 14:26, 18 May 2021 (UTC)

A bowl of strawberries for you!

Thanks for keeping up with Judge Judy and the volume of that IP's changes. I take a peek here and there and have on occasion left them messages when they are active, to which they are responsive as far as their actions (i.e. if I ask for a source or a better source, they comply) but it is a LOT. :) S0091 (talk) 22:07, 19 June 2021 (UTC)
Thank you haha, good to know they're a regular. I've tried to at least put eyes on every edit there at least once, but my goodness, it really is commitment. Alyo (chat·edits) 23:08, 19 June 2021 (UTC)
I know! And it's its not just JJ. They are certainly are a "super fan" of court shows. S0091 (talk) 23:32, 19 June 2021 (UTC)
Hahaha!!! You guys are awesome. Thanks for all your help! And "guilty as charged" (excuse the pun) but I am a court show crazy, but Judy is QUEEN!!! LOL!!! :) 2603:6000:A403:5800:119D:E1CB:C6BF:6A8F (talk) 02:47, 20 June 2021 (UTC)
S0091 and Alyo, while I have you here, I wanted to bounce something off the two of you and get your opinion. I wanted to know your thoughts on putting together a separate article for all of Judge Judy's episodes as sourced here [2]. Maybe each season could have its own page like I noticed Family Guy has. The thing with Judge Judy is that each season has like 260 episodes so it would be a boat load of work. And if I embarked on that, I would need help and wondering if either of you could help me. Your responses would be greatly appreciated. Cheers. 2603:6000:A403:5800:119D:E1CB:C6BF:6A8F (talk) 02:53, 20 June 2021 (UTC)
Here is what I am referring to: [[3]]. Maybe something like that, yay nay? 2603:6000:A403:5800:119D:E1CB:C6BF:6A8F (talk) 02:58, 20 June 2021 (UTC)
Hmm...I am thinking a List might be a better option. See List of Lost episodes for an example. The main reason is I am not sure each season will be able to meet the significant coverage criteria for stand-alone articles about each of them. Another reason is it will be easier to tackle and its not an either/or, meaning you can start with a List then if seasons do warrant their own article, those can still be created. The starting place either way is to start a discussion on the article's talk page to see if you can get broader feedback from other editors. Also, I do strongly recommend creating an account as it gives you access to tools that makes editing easier (fancy stuff!). Not to mention making communication much easier as your IP address changes frequently (no fault of your own). S0091 (talk) 22:13, 20 June 2021 (UTC)
I'll second everything S0091 says, and just add that I at least am unfortunately very limited in the time I can spend on WP nowadays. However, thankfully there's no rush, so if you start a sandbox page (or want me to host one for you since you're not registered) I'm happy to do that as you work on it as you have time. Alyo (chat·edits) 19:40, 23 June 2021 (UTC)
My apologies on the late reply guys. Just wanted to acknowledge your replies as very valuable, sage advice, all of which I will be taking you up on. Just as an FYI, I have been and on and off user of this website since it first started. I have made accounts in the past but then lose interest in a subject I am writing about and have lull periods. I, honestly, don't remember the passwords of former accounts I have had from umpteen years ago. That's just in case someone tries to hassle me with a sockpuppetry abuse, though that is only for trying to take advantage of an edit or voting situation I understand. But yea, I know that's a big policy around here from when I used to regularly use this website about a decade back. But anyways, I will make a new account. Thank you soooooo much for the valuable advice. Thank you for offering to help out on what little time you both have. I will call myself JudgeJudyCourt25 or something like that. Hopefully, on what limited time you guys have, you can help me out and redirect me if I'm getting to fan-crazy in my editing style. Thank you :) 2603:6000:A403:5800:C9CE:49B1:B114:9C15 (talk) 20:53, 26 June 2021 (UTC)
Hey Aiyo and S0089, just giving you both a heads up that I have created my account and am ready to kick off threeway project working on the seasons. I will get a rough draft started and then hopefully we can get a sandbox going. Give me a day or two to get a rough draft started and then to send to here or wherever. JudgeJudyCourthouse25 (talk) 18:36, 27 June 2021 (UTC)

Message just sent to User:S0091: Hey SOO91, great advice about the Wikipedia features and condiments if you will on my talk page. I don't think those existed during the time I used Wikipedia or if they did I was unaware of them, so definitely good and important to know. Thanks for your fun facts. Also, I have been diligently working on the gridded episodes for each season through Microsoft Word and would like to test out what I have for the opinions of you and Aiyo through a sandbox. I remember using a sandbox many moons ago to create a page or edit with another user, but haven't done that in ages and do not remember at all of how it works. Can either you or Aiyo start one please so I may show you what I have thus far? Thank you! JudgeJudyCourthouse25 (talk) 13:21, 7 July 2021 (UTC)

{replied at S0091's talk) Alyo (chat·edits) 14:21, 7 July 2021 (UTC)

Alyo and S0091, I hope you both are well. I have completed Judge Judy (season 1) after putting it off for nearly 2 months. Not sure if either of you two are still interested in working on this project with me, but if so I could really use some help in getting a Judge Judy (season 2) article off the ground. lol! If no longer an interest of yours or you are busy, totally understand. I have been busy myself. lol! But as this took me a solid 3 hours, I think it's safe to say I could use some help.JudgeJudyCourthouse25 (talk) 17:00, 28 August 2021 (UTC)

Thank you

... for what you said on User talk:SlimVirgin - missing pictured on my talk, with music full of hope and reformation --Gerda Arendt (talk) 19:19, 29 June 2021 (UTC)

<3 Alyo (chat·edits) 20:13, 29 June 2021 (UTC)

Please stop removing summaries

I will add sources there is no need to delete something in this article when somebody already made so much effort. Other majors have the summaries as well — Preceding unsigned comment added by MontiroandCoraa (talk • contribs) 23:03, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

Responded on your talk page: User_talk:MontiroandCoraa#ELEAGUE_Major_2017. Alyo (chat·edits) 23:10, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

You are just trying to destroy edits which are accurate and instead of giving them a sources just delete them. They have been up for over 3 years, no reason why they have to be removed know — Preceding unsigned comment added by MontiroandCoraa (talk • contribs) 23:12, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

I'm going to take this as acknowledgment that you've seen my messages. The fact that the content has been up for a long time is not a reason to keep it. It fails all sorts of Wikipedia policies, and that's what we go by. Also, when you leave messages please sign your comments by leaving four tildes (~~~~) at the end. Alyo (chat·edits) 23:16, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

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Google Street View

Hi, Alyo, a discussion has started on the talk page of the Google Street View article, I would like to know your opinion about it and what to do with the article.-Seb { 💬 Talk + 📝 Edits } 22:21, 16 September 2021 (UTC)

I saw that discussion but to be entirely honest, I know so little about the topic that I feel like I'd have to agree with FDW because I can't point to anything that identifies Virtual Streets as a subject matter expert, and I also have no personal experience with the site. I wish I could be more helpful, but I'm just a little out of my depth on this topic. Alyo (chat·edits) 18:00, 17 September 2021 (UTC)

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Your edits to s1mple

I do not understand why you are not inclined to use HLTV ratings, after all they are the golden standard measurement of performance in CSGO. Could you please explain? Obama gaming (talk) 02:41, 3 December 2021 (UTC)

@Obama gaming: Sure, so there are a couple different issues here. First, I'm not sure that HLTV, as a news organization, is a reliable source. In fact, if I brought them up at the reliable sources noticeboard, I'm pretty confident the site as a whole would not be considered reliable. That doesn't mean we can't use it in certain contexts (post-tournament summaries is a good example of that), but in general we should probably move away from relying on HLTV as a source. This would be doubly true for information about the HLTV rating system from HLTV, because of the obvious conflict of interest.
However, this is different from my problem with this edit. In that edit you used a stats page as a source for a conclusion about his MVP performance. But the source isn't about his MVP performance--it's just a stats page. So you're taking two pieces of information (he had a 2.26 rating in one map against Gambit + he was MVP) and putting them together in a way that the source doesn't exactly support. We call that synthesis and we try to avoid that one Wikipedia. What I later found was this source, which explicitly mentions the 2.26 rating map in the context of s1mple's MVP, and readded the material. Now the source is making that connection, not just us. Does that make sense? I know I just threw a lot of policy jargon at you, so I'm happy to explain more. Alyo (chat·edits) 16:08, 3 December 2021 (UTC)
Yeah nah mate I've read that policy & that makes sense now. So in the future, would it be preferable to quote or summarize sources that include the HLTV rating, for example an article from dotesports? Also HLTV itself posts news articles on its main page, and what is your stance on those? Original research? Avoid? Cheers Obama gaming (talk) 20:32, 3 December 2021 (UTC)
Right, exactly--Dot Esports is generally considered reliable so citing them talking about a players rating is much better. As for HLTV news articles, that's the first issue I was talking about above. Generally I try to find an alternative source to HLTV, but for completely factual things (tournament results or a confirmed player change) it's usually ok. It's the more speculative/opinionated/pundit type stuff that I don't think would fly given their lack of clear journalistic standards. It's a case-by-case basis but I think that's a good rule of thumb. Alyo (chat·edits) 22:24, 3 December 2021 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

The Tireless Contributor Barnstar
Thank you for getting the cleanup process started. Cleaning up years worth of original research is not an easy task, and probably requires an expert touch. I appreciate you stepping up to the plate. –Novem Linguae (talk) 13:27, 27 December 2021 (UTC)
Much appreciated, and thanks to you for seeing that whole mess through! I know how tiring/difficult it is to be the person who's pushing the discussion forward and trying to make sure things resolve in some concrete way. Alyo (chat·edits) 15:31, 27 December 2021 (UTC)

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