User talk:Acps110/Archives/2012/January

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R1 103

After some initial remodifications that I did to the article (like putting 103 back in). I modified the final version to show that 103 was in the consist BUT it was actually 401 with 103's number plates put on (and stickers over the inside numbers).

--Allan (talk) 17:07, 31 December 2011 (UTC)

You may have ridden in a car marked with 103 number plates, but the TA has a VERY long history of re-numbering cars. (Shop queens that can't be easily repaired are magically spotted back in service on a road train; A car that has an odd number has ads in it for an even car; Stuff like that.) 103 wasn't restored over-night, and there is no reliable source to say that it was in the consist. Last year or the year before, one of the lead motors for the Holiday consist sported an IRT R17's number! Acps110 ^{(talk • contribs)} 01:44, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

LI Bus transition to privatization

I have begun putting the NICE tags into LIRR stations, but I won't update the articles/infoboxes until the day before the takeover. Also, before you revert, note that NICE uses a lowercase "n", not the MTA's capital "N" prefix. — Train2104 (talk • contribs) 22:09, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

I would prefer you not update until the day AFTER MTA service ends, because we are not reporting the news; We are writing an encyclopedia, with no deadline. Thanks, Acps110 ^{(talk • contribs)} 22:26, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

OK, I've stopped for now. — Train2104 (talk • contribs) 22:31, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

Thank you. Acps110 ^{(talk • contribs)} 22:43, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

It's 1-1-2012 on WP's clock, so I updated the list. Should I continue? — Train2104 (talk • contribs) 00:51, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

I would say that Veolia is probably not operating yet, because even though it's after midnight in London, here on the US East Coast it is still 8:30 PM. Acps110 ^{(talk • contribs)} 01:29, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

Also, what's with the limited not being listed separately? On Veolia's schedules, they are distinctly separate (n20L, n22L). — Train2104 (talk • contribs) 05:20, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

They are the same service; and we are not a travel guide. Acps110 ^{(talk • contribs)} 15:41, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

Thanks

Say, I appreciate the barnstar and also your locating that goof in my archiving. Thanks, ScottyBerg (talk) 16:18, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

Certainly! (I was bold with the archiving spacing because I figured you probably wouldn't mind.) Acps110 ^{(talk • contribs)} 17:02, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

Line template talk pages

Can you tell me why you've redirected all line template talk pages to the WT:NYCPT talk page? ----DanTD (talk) 19:36, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

Many of those talk pages didn't exist, and very few people watchlist those templates. A question on a template talk page could go unanswered for a long time. All of the discussions that I blanked with the redirects were stale and some were years old. (They still exist in the history, and perhaps I should create a log of that for the WT:NYCPT archive.) The WT:NYCPT talk page is a good place to redirect to as a central point for members to coordinate from. This is especially good for far-reaching changes which involve multiple templates. Acps110 ^{(talk • contribs)} 19:52, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

Services for the line list

I need your advice. I see that the List of New York City Subway lines shows some services for each line, but it is not complete. For example, for the IND Eighth Avenue Line, it uses the {{NYCS Eighth south}} template and shows A/C/E, but I can replace the template with {{NYCS Eighth center}} to show A/B/C/D and reflect the presence of "orange" services on the line. However, it seems that there is no template that shows all the services for the whole line. What can I do?

IMHO, the most correct is to create new templates, but it's a lot of work. I can also simplify the list manually adding all services without their scheduled hours, like here, but it would make the article worse. Have you more ideas? Vcohen (talk) 16:00, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

You are correct, I've never noticed that! I've made a new template {{NYCS Eighth all}} (A  ​B  ​C  ​D  ​E  trains) for this purpose.

(A trick to show a template with a clickable link is to wrap it with the {{tl}} template.) Acps110 ^{(talk • contribs)} 16:55, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

Thank you. It means that I have to continue with the rest. Vcohen (talk) 16:59, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

What others are missing all the services? I thought that was the only one. Acps110 ^{(talk • contribs)} 17:04, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

It was "for example". I didn't check them all. The IND Sixth Avenue Line seems OK, the BMT Fourth Avenue Line doesn't, and so on... Vcohen (talk) 17:10, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

Fourth Avenue is correct, only the D, N and R serve it. If you are thinking of the B and Q, those serve the Brighton line. Acps110 ^{(talk • contribs)} 17:15, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

P.S. DeKalb Avenue is listed as being on both the BMT Fourth Avenue and the BMT Brighton lines. Acps110 ^{(talk • contribs)} 17:17, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

Oops... So, the only problem I've found is the IRT Jerome Avenue Line that is missing the 5. But don't trust me. Vcohen (talk) 17:24, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

That template does exist, it's {{NYCS Jerome south}} (4  ​5  trains). Have you found this page which lists all the available templates? Acps110 ^{(talk • contribs)} 17:28, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

I have found it, but didn't check now, sorry.

By the way, why doesn't the case of DeKalb Avenue happen at other stations that serve several lines each? For example, Coney Island – Stillwell Avenue (New York City Subway) serves 4 services and belongs to 4 lines, but none of these lines has all the 4 services listed in its article. Vcohen (talk) 17:59, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

Each line that lists Coney Island as a terminal only includes the service that terminates on that line. The other services and lines are listed in the Transfers column because none of the trains travel through the station and each line can operate independently. Crossover switches for a line are not affected by any other line. There can be up to 4 trains departing or entering the station at a time. Acps110 ^{(talk • contribs)} 18:23, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

Let's replace the example. The structure of Hoyt–Schermerhorn Streets is similar to the one of DeKalb Avenue. And in the Services column only the services belonging to the appropriate line are shown, like in all other cases. Only DeKalb Avenue is an exception. Why? Vcohen (talk) 19:30, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

The answer is track connections. At Hoyt–Schermerhorn Sts, the Crosstown line is always the same tracks, and the Fulton Street line is always the same tracks. There are no physical track connections between the two lines. Hoyt–Schermerhorn Sts is more like Seventh Avenue (IND Sixth Avenue Line) than DeKalb.

At DeKalb, a train can use any of the three connections from the north to either of the two lines to the south. For examples, via Tunnel to Fourth Ave line (N, R trains), via Tunnel to Brighton line (J Shuttle), via Bridge to Fourth Ave line (D, N trains), via Bridge to Brighton line (B, Q trains). The only constant is that stopping trains via the Tunnel are always the inner tracks, and stopping trains via the Bridge are always the outer tracks. Acps110 ^{(talk • contribs)} 19:49, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

OK, thank you. I have to learn this topic. Vcohen (talk) 20:56, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

So, after doing my home exercises... I see two approaches, both taken in different articles.

1. Here - every given service belongs to one certain line.
2. Here and here - every given service belongs to the whole station and thus to both lines passing through it.

You have explained the second approach. Now, how do you explain the existing inconsistency?

By the way, there are additional stations with switches, at least these two: Jay Street – MetroTech (IND Fulton Street Line) and Prospect Park (BMT Brighton Line), and they are consistently presented using the first approach. Vcohen (talk) 12:07, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

Jay Street is the same as Hoyt–Schermerhorn Sts, and so is Prospect Park. Each line has dedicated tracks that are always the same. The outer tracks at Jay Street belong to the Culver line and the inner tracks are the Fulton Street line. Prospect Park's outer tracks belong to the Franklin Ave line and the inner tracks belong to the Brighton line. With DeKalb Ave, which tracks would you assign to the Brighton line, and which ones to the Fourth Ave line? How can it be displayed any other way? All those services stop at DeKalb at various times during the day regardless of which line they came from or are going to.

There is no other station in the system where two lines are intertwined and trains from both lines stop on the same tracks. Every other example has tracks dedicated to each line. On the list of lines page, each line shows only the services that serve it, but on the individual articles, the services are displayed in the services column with no transfers because everything shares tracks at DeKalb Ave.

With the transfer passageway at Atlantic Ave – Pacific Street (Fourth Ave) that was added in the late 1970s, DeKalb Ave has become less important as a transfer point. There are only two bridge services (B, Q) and one tunnel service (R) stopping there now. There used to be many more. Prior to the 1970s, the IRT and Brighton line had transfers at Atlantic, but the Fourth Ave line was a separate station. Since then, all services stop at Atlantic, local and express. An example of using that transfer passageway, is when the Q is split into two separate services during weekend construction. Q trains from Manhattan terminate at the Fourth Ave line platforms, and Q shuttles for the Brighton line terminate on that line. Passengers are instructed to transfer through the passageway to continue their trip. Acps110 ^{(talk • contribs)} 16:33, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

We are speaking about three entities:

• line,
• route,
• track.

Two lines share tracks, hence the confusion. Let's try to factor out the tracks and speak about lines and routes only. For each line we can definitely say what services serve it (you say, "each line shows only the services that serve it"), so we can divide the list of services at DeKalb Ave between the Services and Transfers columns. Just to make the articles consistent. Vcohen (talk) 19:58, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

Well you can't really factor out the tracks. I tend to think of DeKalb more from a standpoint of the north connections (via Bridge or via Tunnel) than what line to the south. (Especially because the transfer opportunities are much better at the next station, Atlantic Ave.) I think it can stay the way it is on the individual line pages because each shows the splits north and south of the station. Acps110 ^{(talk • contribs)} 01:22, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

OK, let it stay. Thanks. Vcohen (talk) 10:03, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

Number of services

Excuse me, how do you count the services? I guess you ignore the <6> and <7>. Vcohen (talk) 21:26, 20 January 2012 (UTC)

Right. The description says, "As of June 2010, the New York City Subway system has 24 lettered or numbered route designations." That means you count all the letters and numbers once, then you add the three shuttles. The <6> and <7> are not included in the count because they are not separate services. (They don't even operate in the other direction.) Acps110 ^{(talk • contribs)} 21:32, 20 January 2012 (UTC)

I don't see the logic. If we count each letter only once, why doesn't it work with the S? If it's important that they only operate in the peak direction, why doesn't it work with the Z? Maybe, it's just the official opinion of the MTA. If so, this is the only reason. Vcohen (talk) 21:41, 20 January 2012 (UTC)

Broken down by division...

• IRT – 7 services, 1 shuttle (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 42nd St Shuttle)
• IND – 7 services, 1 shuttle (A, B, C, D, E, F, G, Rockaway Park Shuttle)
• BMT – 7 services, 1 shuttle (J, L, M, N, Q, R, Z, Franklin Ave Shuttle)
• Total – 8 + 8 + 8 = 24

The Z is a separate letter, and considered a separate service by the MTA. On the map key, a diamond service is defined as "additional express service." The Z is not additional express service but a different stopping pattern. Acps110 ^{(talk • contribs)} 23:59, 20 January 2012 (UTC)

Thank you. I was wrong in that I tried to count myself. There are many possible ways to count the services, and the "right" one is an arbitrary decision. Vcohen (talk) 09:41, 21 January 2012 (UTC)

Aqueduct Racetrack (IND Rockaway Line)

You'd probably know this from checking the history, but the anonymous IP that edited Aqueduct Racetrack (IND Rockaway Line), adding the closing date from last year did add a source in a previous edit, but it was with a source with a broken link. Do you have any way of finding a version of the link he/she used that isn't broken? ----DanTD (talk) 02:26, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

Although I am not Acps110...

1. It wasn't a broken link, it was only "ref" with "name": <ref name="nyt-2011-04-28"/>. There is no reference named "nyt-2011-04-28" either in this article or in any other one. The IP user seems to have copied the syntax from another article and changed the date. He didn't know he had to add a URL.
2. I've found a source that really says that the station closed on the mentioned date: [1]. However, the MTA map (updated as of October 2011, later than April 2011) shows the station as active: [2]. I guess that nycsubway has copied the date from some other source that meant the station was closing until the next racing season.

Vcohen (talk) 09:54, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

As Vcohen said, the October 2011 map still had the station active, and the January 2012 map also shows the station active. I haven't seen any other source that says the station has closed. Acps110 ^{(talk • contribs)} 12:38, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

Terminals and bi-directional tracks

I need to resort to your help again.

You've already seen my station layout diagrams. They are almost ready, but I've found a serious error. Some of terminal stations have two bi-directional tracks with trains short turning on them, while others look like usual stations with trains turning back behind the station. Since I show direction for each track, I need to know which of them are bi-directional. I tried to find it out for each station in the list, but didn't succeed.

Thanks in advance. Vcohen (talk) 12:49, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

P.S. I see your work in progress. My deep bow to you. There will be a lot of questions. Vcohen (talk) 16:03, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

I've created a subpage for this discussion using your schematics. You may ask any questions there. (Sorry about misspelling your name.) Acps110 ^{(talk • contribs)} 16:45, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

It's OK. Thank you a bunch. Vcohen (talk) 17:42, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

Bus connections on The 7

So we only have bus connection on trains when they're airport connections and Select Bus Service, eh? My mistake. ----DanTD (talk) 02:40, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, only special buses like that in the service articles. Ordinary buses are only mentioned in the station articles. Acps110 ^{(talk • contribs)} 02:44, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

Dark gray

Do you mean this statement is anything more than a comment to this specific template? Vcohen (talk) 16:09, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

I was going to add that several other places too. Acps110 ^{(talk • contribs)} 16:11, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

Station Success Conversions

I see you changed the station succession boxes in some of the stations on the BMT Jamaica Line and BMT Myrtle Avenue Line to remove the confusing north/south problems. Do you plan on doing this for every other station article we have? The Legendary Ranger (talk) 01:11, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

No, because north and south adequately describe the rest of the system. Acps110 ^{(talk • contribs)} 04:08, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

Levels near 63rd Street

Is this correct? If both tracks go to the upper level of the tunnel, the line becomes one-level, doesn't it? The track map shows the tracks on the same level.

I don't want to edit the article before I ask you. Vcohen (talk) 18:17, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

What I was trying to say there, is that heading east from Lexington Avenue – 63rd Street, the two levels become two side-by-side tracks of the IND 63rd Street Line on the upper level of the two-level four-track 63rd Street Tunnel. I've re-worked it some more. Thanks for the heads-up. Acps110 ^{(talk • contribs)} 18:30, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

Thanks. Vcohen (talk) 18:34, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

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