User talk:Acps110/Archives/2010/January

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Subway station list pages

Following your advice, I set up User:Tinlinkin/List of New York City Subway stations to be the mockup page for the main subway list page. I decided to follow the style of List of Washington Metro stations and added a section for top 10 ridership. I will remove the ridership column from the individual pages the next time I edit on Wikipedia. Also, I left a message at Template talk:NYCS row 2 about the colors for transfers/terminals/etc. I also wonder if we should differentiate between express-local stations like Junction Boulevard from terminal transfers like Bowling Green. Otherwise, I think these pages are almost ready to "go live." Tinlinkin (talk) 13:11, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

• I added the station complexes section. I get a different number of station complexes though. For instance... 50th Street - Eighth Ave; on two lines (Eighth and QB), multiple levels, indicated by a single dot on the map. Or Prospect Park; on two lines (Brighton and Franklin), cross-platform transfer, indicated by a single dot on the map. Perhaps a compromise solution would be to include the 31 complexes plus those identified by the NYCS Wikiproject as a station complex. (Excluding Rockaway Parkway, because it's a transfer between two different modes.)

Copied Discussion from Template talk:NYCS row 2

Sorting out transfer stations Acps110, it seems that you and I have different interpretations. I intended for choice C (3 asterisks) to be for stations like Seventh Avenue (IND Queens Boulevard Line) and West Fourth Street (New York City Subway), which the MTA counts as one station as part of its 468 stations but they serve 2+ lines. (In List of New York City Subway transfer stations, these are the stations that do not have a link to a station in the column "Individual stations.") A station like 14th Street – Union Square (New York City Subway) is 3 stations. Broadway is choice B, 14th Street – Canarsie is choice A, and Lexington is choice B. To link these stations into station complexes, I used footnotes. I will go through and edit the Manhattan list to tell you what I had in mind. Perhaps and most likely the legend text should be clearer. Although I should know what I'm doing, I am using [1] or [2] for double checking. Tinlinkin (talk) 05:05, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

• I wasn't quite sure how to tackle the A, B and C options. I just used my best guess when I colored the lists. Thank you for clarifying and upgrading the wording to make it clearer.
• Bowling Green has no local service. Just put a note in like you did at Rockaway Boulevard to say that the transfer is between two expresses. Junction Boulevard is fine the way it is listed now. (Hope I answered that one correctly; I'm not sure I really understand that example.)
• Now for something else, how should we handle the redlinks in the station complex list? DAB page, Redirect or Merge? I left them red to show you that there is no page for those complexes. Acps110 ^{(talk • contribs)} 05:26, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

• About WP:NYCPT, are you talking about Wikipedia:WikiProject New York City Public Transportation/New York City Subway/Services and lines#Station complexes and other combinations? I think the "other combinations" were included there to show that these stations serve two lines, but they are not station complexes, which must have a clear definition. [We need to find a reference that defines "station complex;" I haven't been able to find one. Does nycsubway.org have one?] Since the definition of a station complex affects the "real" number of stations in the subway system, the number of station complexes must be definite, and it's the 31 that are identified. [3] will be the reference I will add, once I find out how to reference an Excel spreadsheet... So I cannot say that I can approve cross-platform transfers and bi-level stations to be lumped in as station complexes.
• The subway complexes have always been either a combination of stations from the 3 former systems, or when the lines "crossed" each other within a system (149th Street / Grand Concourse, New Utrecht Avenue / 62nd Street). That is the only plausible way to define what a complex is for consistency in counting stations in the system. In contrast, West 4th Street, for example, must have always been said to be one station from its beginnings in the IND. The NYCS does not want to acknowledge a reduction of its 468 stations (for whatever reason, i.e. to say it has the most stations in the world), but the sources that compare rapid transit systems worldwide have a figure of around 423 "actual" stations. (You probably knew all of the above, but I have to explain why I cannot compromise on the station complex issue.)
• What I wanted to ask about Junction Boulevard vs. Bowling Green is that these are transfer stations for two different reasons and I put them in the same classification. My question is if we need another (annoying but necessary?) option to separate the two. Bowling Green is a transfer because the 5 terminates there sometimes. [The MTA map uses a white circle that says "All trains stop (local and express service)." But there is only express or only local service at that point in the line, depending on how you view it. So that circle is technically wrong. There are other inconsistencies that may need to be addressed later.] Is this really a transfer? And does it matter that other transit systems consider that type of station to be a transfer (i.e. Mount Vernon Square / 7th Street – Convention Center (Washington Metro))? Church Avenue (IND Culver Line) is one of many that's also similar.
• With the express-local stations, stations like Ocean Parkway (BMT Brighton Line) and Bay Parkway (BMT West End Line) currently do not have express service, so I don't want to classify them as such.
• About redlinked station complexes: none of the choices is appealing at the moment. Redirect would have 2+ choices, what would be the target? DAB may be OK, but the page exists only because we can't agree on a universal name for the complex. Merging also has the same problem. Do you have a preference?
• Last comments: the main page is becoming long and I am about to add 2 new sections: handicapped accessibility and National Register of Historic Places stations. I am likely going to ask advice from others on how to proceed with the format of the page. Tinlinkin (talk) 07:07, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

One more thing... We should wait to go live until all the DAB pages are created (redlinks removed) and the prose for each article is more fleshed-out. Acps110 ^{(talk • contribs)} 05:48, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

I think the red links are fine. There are many other Wikipedia pages in worse shape. That's also the same reason why I wouldn't worry about the prose. That said, I will be moving the pages in about an hour, or when you reply. Tinlinkin (talk) 07:11, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

• No, I'm referring to the naming convention. Marc Shepherd was active here when I first started and was very adamant about the naming convention. That's where I get the definition of multiple lines make a complex, regardless of physical configuration.
• I don't dispute the 468 stations "official" number. I just recently found the last station, which is that the Canal St (Bridge Line) platform was originally called Broadway. So, that multi-level station (N, Q, R, W) is officially counted as two stations. ;-) (If I were making the count; that complex is 3 stations, BMT Nassau, BMT Broadway, and IRT Lex.)
• Ok, got it now. No I don't think a separate option is necessary to differentiate between the way service is operated at Junction Blvd vs. Bowling Green. Is it really a transfer? Yes, because the transfer is to a different service that continues to Brooklyn. A note will suffice to indicate it is between two expresses.
• I disagree with that; They should be classified as such. Bay Parkway frequently does have express service; such as the N via West End in one direction because of construction on the Sea Beach line. It's not necessary to state weird services such as that, but the express stations are useful. A conductor might announce, "N via the D, Express."
• The lazy man in me says that DAB would be the best for now. We might be able to drum up support for a merge, but it seems the NYCS project is VERY lightly staffed right now.
• Ouch! NO! Put those two sections on the individual borough pages. Acps110 ^{(talk • contribs)} 07:37, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

• I am purposefully trying to avoid any definition that is not "official," not by the MTA, in order to provide a reliable source on it. I don't remember how the Wikipedia project's definition was formulated. I probably agreed to it because I didn't think much of it. I've rediscovered the MTA ridership page, that says (emphasis mine):

"The New York City subway system has 468 stations – the largest number of public transit subway stations of any system in the world. However, the table of ridership by station linked below lists 424 stations, with stations connected by transfer passageways combined into station complexes, since ridership cannot be accurately allocated to each station in the complex. For example, the 14 St A C E station is combined with the 8 Av L station."

With all due respect to Marc Shepherd (who I miss but see being active elsewhere), I find this a better and reliable definition of a station complex. This is what I will cite in the text.

• About Bowling Green "a transfer between two expresses," I'm not particularly fond of that. It's a 2-track line at that point (current services, for all intents and purposes). How about Wall Street to the north and Borough Hall to the south, both with the same circle on the map? Then we have stations like 63rd Drive in Queens or Bowery in Manhattan: local stations with 2+ services. They're not transfer stations, are they? Once again, I am trying to define "official transfer stations," which must be verified in a featured list. If the official subway map defines transfer stations, I would be wise to go along with that. (I do recognize that it is imperfect or imprecise, however.)
• Classifying the West End Bay Parkway station as an "official express-local transfer station," the implication by the legend, is tricky. Since the official map doesn't use the white circle, the map says it is not. But the platforms are designed as they are, so that must be noted. So I would add footnotes saying roughly it is an express-local station because it was designed that way, but express services are not normally run on this line now, and thus it is not an official express-local station. I'll think about it. Tinlinkin (talk) 09:24, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

Also, why would a station complex be one station only? That wouldn't make sense. Tinlinkin (talk) 09:33, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

• After more thought on this situation; I think I can be happy with the station complexes on the parent page being only those 31. I have added the link to the transfer stations page to that section; because that's what I think of when I say station complex.
• Then just leave that note out, I'm being overly petty about express vs. local. The transfer station is really only introduced into the equation when it's also a terminal. If I was on a 5 headed to Brooklyn during rush-hours I certainly wouldn't jump off at BG just to transfer to a 4. No, Wall Street is not a transfer station, but Borough Hall is because of the Bway-7th Ave and BMT Broadway lines available there. For example, a person who gets on at Hoyt St, rides one stop and transfers at Borough Hall to get the Lex to Wall Street, because that's closer to their office.
• We may be able to find an older map that shows Bay Parkway as an express station. It's not used that way now, but because of the platform arrangement, it does get used that way during construction re-routes.
• Prospect Park, although a single station, is a station complex in my mind because it serves two separate lines, the Brighton and Franklin. Each of those lines run independently of each other (B,Q and S); one does not affect the others on-time performance. Platform-configuration is irrelevant. Acps110 ^{(talk • contribs)} 20:07, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

I admit, Borough Hall was a poor example of what I was trying to prove. Your Hoyt St. transfer is plausible, therefore the Borough Hall Lexington Ave. platform (and 7th Ave.) could be a transfer between local and express trains following the manner of the 2 Broadway – Canal Street platforms and Chambers–WTC. I also now support re-adding dormant express-local stations per your reasoning and for historical illustrative purposes. The nycsubway.org track maps and the Track Maps book show express stations, so they should be and will be included in citations. Tinlinkin (talk) 05:15, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for your note

I see you're part of the group of editors working on subways/trains. These articles are quite a treasure trove of information, as obviously people are committed to the subject and have put a lot of thought into them. They happen to be a big interest of mine. I have books on the subject that might be helpful, including a great book on the Third Avenue El. --ScottyBerg (talk) 18:33, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

I've been a part of the WikiProject New York City Public Transportation almost the entire time I've been on Wikipedia. It has been a really fun project to be a part of. (Look at the previous section on this page.) Please add your name to the list of participants and dive in! The demolished el articles (Second, Third, Sixth, Ninth, Fulton St. (Bk), Lexington Ave. (Bk) etc.) have been stagnate since I've been here. Be bold and add stuff to them. Be sure to use inline references to your book(s) using the {{Cite book}} template.

Don't be afraid if you can't figure out the syntax of some of the templates used around the project. If you preview your work, a list of templates used shows up under the edit box. You can open any of them in a new window to see their documentation to figure out the syntax. Of course, I'll be glad to fix anything I can if you still can't figure them out. (Just save your work and drop me a note.)

As an aside, I've found that setting up my preferences to automatically "watch any page I edit" helps me keep track of changes and watch for new ways to do things. Acps110 ^{(talk • contribs)} 19:14, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

Hey, Els happen to be a special interest of mine. I don't know why, they just are. My book on the third ave. el shows how the city was different when the els are around, and I guess I find that just amazing. You're right about the syntax and templates. They are totally confusing. It took me days to figure out what to do about adding a photo, but I finally figured it out by looking at other photos, how they were designated and so forth. Meanwhile I'm going to add my name to the project member list. Thanks again.--ScottyBerg (talk) 19:24, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

CERTAINLY! Do you know about the pipe trick yet? It will save you A LOT of typing in this project. Acps110 ^{(talk • contribs)} 19:30, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

I'll look at that. thanks. --ScottyBerg (talk) 19:35, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

Good point about edit summaries. I'll start right now.--ScottyBerg (talk) 20:11, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

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